The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[mjrhealth]

What "lies"?

It’s obvious by now that you can’t tell me where I find an infallible interpretation of the Bible. That means your faith is based entirely on your fallible interpretation of the Bible, which is useless. You're stumbling around in a fog of uncertainty; I feel sorry for you.
Why not?

So ignorant, explain to me how thew Holy Spirit is fallible, please explain to me how the Holy Spirit needs to interpret anything, you are a catholic, joined to the catholic church, indoctrinated in the catholic doctrines, and ignorant of the things of God, what has Christ got to do with the Great Harlot, who pretends to be His bride all dressed up in her fancy clothes, dressed up to display her ware, covered in bells and things of Gold, but ugly as sin when exposed. She is a harlot and will always be, Thats what you have joined yourself to. And you know what happens to men who sleep with Harlots.

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

You become what you join yourself to, so a catholic you will always be,

1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

 

[mjrhealth]

So according to you, Jesus is against the existence of leaders in the Church? If so, why was the early Church led by the apostles and later have bishops?

The following passages clearly demonstrate that the Church has leaders?:
“But we beg you brethren, to respect those who labor among you and who are over you in the Lord and admonish you, and to esteem them very highly …” (1Thess 5:12-13);

”Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honour, especially those who labour in preaching and teaching” (1Tim 5:17).

Shoudl I repeat myself, what has Christ to do with a harlot.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Shoudl I repeat myself, what has Christ to do with a harlot.

All we have to do is to read the Old Testament prophets to see what God thinks of idolatry. Because Jesus and the Father are totally in unity about these things, we can know that Jesus is diametrically opposed to idolatry of any kind - including prayers to Mary, the box containing the wafers, statues and picture depicting Mary and Christ, genuflecting before the altar, and a human priest taking the place of Jesus as sole mediator between God and man, and a pope taking the place of the Holy Spirit representing Christ to the church. Anyone with a half a brain would know that Jesus has nothing to do with any church that has these things in it as part of its worship.

 

[FollowHim]

Catholicism is all about God's love and His gift. The former-Catholic you speak of mustn't have been paying attention or didn't understand what they were being taught - let's face it, it's well known that most Catholics who leave the one, true Church and join the pretender-churches are not the sharpest tools in the shed. Such folks are easily fooled and easily misled.

You could be right, except I know these people, doctors, dentists, teachers, those who for truth really matters.
Emphasis is a problem everywhere, even among priests. Talk to general lay people, and you will find few agree on what they believe.
Idolatry of church is as bad as any other idolatry. Once you externalise we are the true church, you have lost it. We can only talk love and following, and grace to cover our failings.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Jesus spoke Aramaic, and He gave Simon the Aramaic name, Cephas (John 1:42), which means “rock” - it doesn’t mean “little pebble”, as the ignorant contend. How do you explain the fact that if you read a French or Aramaic Bible, the words for “Peter” and “this rock” in Matt 16:18 are exactly the same word?

listen!

The author of scripture wrote what Jesus spoke in Greek. and it was inspired from the Holy Spirit, meaning the HS himself authorised the greek word used for peter and rock.

And in that word. It NEVER means a large boulder

God used the greek for a reason, because it is a more indepth language, Jesus may have used the arabic word, which could have a much broader interpretation But when the HS inspired the writing of his word. He used the greek language, and used a word which had a less broader definition.

its like the english word love, It is broad

there are 4 greek words all interpreted love, All have a more precise direction of what the author intends to say.

 

[FollowHim]

listen!

The author of scripture wrote what Jesus spoke in Greek. and it was inspired from the Holy Spirit, meaning the HS himself authorised the greek word used for peter and rock.

And in that word. It NEVER means a large boulder

God used the greek for a reason, because it is a more indepth language, Jesus may have used the arabic word, which could have a much broader interpretation But when the HS inspired the writing of his word. He used the greek language, and used a word which had a less broader definition.

its like the english word love, It is broad

there are 4 greek words all interpreted love, All have a more precise direction of what the author intends to say.

Interesting suggesting the word "never".
I am sure some greek people used the word to describe a rock.
The argument I have read is Petros masculine refers to Peter, Petra feminine. The petra is the faith of Peters statement that Jesus is the Christ.

16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Matt 16:16-18

Jesus is building upon the revelation that Jesus is Christ, the Son of the living God.
Look at His church, this is our testimony, declaring who Jesus is. It is a prophecy and also a reality of what the church was to become. Peter was named Peter because of his expression of faith in Jesus. Amen.

 

[RogerDC]

What about the speech given by pope John Paul II in South America which incited mobs to burn Protestant churches and murder their members?

News to me. Tell me more.

 

[RogerDC]

If formal ceremonies are more important than our hearts state in Christ, all is pointless. And sadly that is what the RCC does.

You wouldn't know.

 

[Paul Christensen]

News to me. Tell me more.

As I have said, that debate is not important to me right now. Your own assurance that if you get the virus and that you might die from it, you know for sure that you are going to the right place.

 

[RogerDC]

Once again, how can you read something, and get it so wrong.
HE SAVED US. A completed action.

How can a believer possibly be “saved” before he is judged by Christ, which takes place only after death? Think about it - it ain’t rocket science.

Any verse what appears to say we are saved before Judgement Day shouldn’t be read literally, but in the sense that a believer on the road to being saved. Consider this verse: Jesus said
“anyone who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6).
In this verse, the words, “has eternal life”, doesn’t refer to NOW, because we will all die; rather, it refers to a FUTURE EVENT, when Jesus raises the believer up to eternal life when He comes again. In the same way, if a verse says, “you are saved”, it doesn’t mean we are saved NOW; rather, it refers to a FUTURE EVENT.

And think about this: Go on online-atheist forums and you will find thousands of formerly “saved” Christians who are now atheists - are they still saved? Of course not.
I know a fellow called Danny who experienced a conversion twenty years ago and went around telling everyone he was “saved” (he even got himself a couple of Christian tattoos), but these days, Danny is an atheist - is he still “saved”? Of course not.
There are several former-Christian ministers who became atheists. Are they still “saved”? Of course not.

Please explain this verse:
"I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not therefore acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgement before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God." (1Cor 4:3-5).
To claim that you are already “saved” is to judge yourself, which Paul clearly condemns.

 

[mjrhealth]

How can a believer possibly be “saved” before he is judged by Christ, which takes place only after death? Think about it - it ain’t rocket science.

Any verse what appears to say we are saved before Judgement Day shouldn’t be read literally, but in the sense that a believer on the road to being saved. Consider this verse: Jesus said
“anyone who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6).
In this verse, the words, “has eternal life”, doesn’t refer to NOW, because we will all die; rather, it refers to a FUTURE EVENT, when Jesus raises the believer up to eternal life when He comes again. In the same way, if a verse says, “you are saved”, it doesn’t mean we are saved NOW; rather, it refers to a FUTURE EVENT.

And think about this: Go on online-atheist forums and you will find thousands of formerly “saved” Christians who are now atheists - are they still saved? Of course not.
I know a fellow called Danny who experienced a conversion twenty years ago and went around telling everyone he was “saved” (he even got himself a couple of Christian tattoos), but these days, Danny is an atheist - is he still “saved”? Of course not.
There are several former-Christian ministers who became atheists. Are they still “saved”? Of course not.

Please explain this verse:
"I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not therefore acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgement before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God." (1Cor 4:3-5).
To claim that you are already “saved” is to judge yourself, which Paul clearly condemns.

Something to do with

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

 

[RogerDC]

funny how again you leave out romans 4.

What about Romans 4? No doubt you misinterpret it as well.

How about you explain how that people who have some works according to James are saved, (notice, really one work, but I will give the benefit of the doubt and say 2 works would by definition fulfill James requirement of works, because the person who did that/5those works, can not be said to have NO work.

I have no idea what you’re talking about - and I don’t think you do, either. What on earth is “one work” or “2 works”? Sounds like you don’t know what “works” even means.

”James requirement of works”? Huh?

 

[Paul Christensen]

How can a believer possibly be “saved” before he is judged by Christ, which takes place only after death? Think about it - it ain’t rocket science.

Any verse what appears to say we are saved before Judgement Day shouldn’t be read literally, but in the sense that a believer on the road to being saved. Consider this verse: Jesus said
“anyone who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6).
In this verse, the words, “has eternal life”, doesn’t refer to NOW, because we will all die; rather, it refers to a FUTURE EVENT, when Jesus raises the believer up to eternal life when He comes again. In the same way, if a verse says, “you are saved”, it doesn’t mean we are saved NOW; rather, it refers to a FUTURE EVENT.

And think about this: Go on online-atheist forums and you will find thousands of formerly “saved” Christians who are now atheists - are they still saved? Of course not.
I know a fellow called Danny who experienced a conversion twenty years ago and went around telling everyone he was “saved” (he even got himself a couple of Christian tattoos), but these days, Danny is an atheist - is he still “saved”? Of course not.
There are several former-Christian ministers who became atheists. Are they still “saved”? Of course not.

Please explain this verse:
"I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not therefore acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgement before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God." (1Cor 4:3-5).
To claim that you are already “saved” is to judge yourself, which Paul clearly condemns.

I asked you this question on the other thread:
Are you a good person?

 

[RogerDC]

repentance is a work of a God, he works to change your mind

So if a believer is tempted to sin, what should he do - give in to the temptation and sin, or fight the temptation and not sin?

Repentance is not a work … faith is a state of mind, where the repentant person takes his faith off himself and his works, and calls out to a God to save him (like the tax collector). Who went home justified? The repentant sinner, or the proud worker?

Wow, it sounds like you don’t even know what “repentance” means! In which case, you need to join the little kiddies in Sunday School and learn the meaning of some very basic Christian concepts - at the moment, you’re clueless.

Repentance is not simply admitting that one is a sinner who is in need of salvation - repentance is doing something about being a sinner - ie, changing one’s CONDUCT by ceasing one’s sinful BEHAVIOUR (have you never read Romans 6?). So since repentance requires an action that involves a change in behaviour, it is “work”. For example, if one is a habitual thief, then repentance means one stops stealing. If one is an habitual fornicator, then repentance means one stops fornicating. To stop stealing or fornicating is “works”.

Being “justified by works” (James 2:24) refers to keeping Christ’s commandments, which includes repentance. When Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to “sin no more”, He was commanding her to repent.

 

[RogerDC]

I asked you this question on the other thread:
Are you a good person?

I don't know. What does "good" mean?

 

[RogerDC]

yet peter called pauls writings scripture.
Sorry man, your arguments fall flat on their face

Even if Paul’s writing are included, 2Tim 3:16 doesn’t say Scripture is all that is needed for doctrine, but only “profitable” for doctrine.

if the OT was able to make us complete in Christ, that means we do not even need the NT

That’s right, so when Paul says “… which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ” (2Tim 3:15), what is he referring to? He was referring to two things :
(a) “what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it” (v.14), and
(b) “the Sacred Writings” (v.15).

(a) is the teaching of the Church and (b) is the teachings of the OT. Notice that the NT is not included in either (a) or (b), yet these two ingredients together are sufficient for “salvation through faith in Christ”.

… let alone any of your churches other writings, which are not even inspired writings of God

The Catholic Church is the fullness of Christ (Eph 1:22-23) and the “pillar and foundation of the truth” - therefore her doctrines are indeed the inspired work of God.

when you have to Go outside the word of God to support your doctrines. Your doctrines are false. Because anything that can not be proven in the word should be ignored

Those are your rules, not God’s. Nowhere in Scripture does it say the word of God is confined to the Bible or that every Church doctrine must be proven by Scripture. The primary source of Christian doctrine is the Church, not the Scriptures - you’ve got your priorities around the wrong way.

Furthermore, what does Eph 4:4-14 say is responsible for the following:
”Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fullness of Christ”?
If you answered, “The Bible”, you’d be wrong, because is no mention at all of the Bible in the whole passage. The correct answer is the “apostles … prophets … evangelists … pastors and teachers” - ie, the Church. But people like you have to ignore these verses, as it contradicts your false Sola Scriptura doctrine.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I don't know. What does "good" mean?

Here is the test. You need to answer the questions honestly:
Have you ever told a lie?
Ever downloaded music that you didn't pay for?
Ever hated anyone?
Ever looked at a woman with lust?
Ever used curses, even OMG?
Ever prayed to Mary or any of the Saints?

If you have answered "yes" to one or more of those questions, you have broken the one of the Ten Commandments that relates to the question.

This might mean that you are
A liar
A thief
A murderer
A fornicator
A blasphemer
An idolator

So if you are any of these, and are depending on a balance between your good and bad deeds, you might find that your bad deeds as listed might outweigh your good ones. It is no use for a rapist to say to the judge, "I know I raped her, but I have done so many good deeds since:. The judge will say, you are convicted of rape and will go to prison for it, regardless of any good deed you have done before or since. Do you think that God's justice will be any different?

 

[RogerDC]

You missed it

Jesus was referring to "fathers" as in "lords and masters".

You missed it. Jesus said “call NO MAN your father ON EARTH”. So according to your literal interpretation of the verse, NO MAN ON EARTH can be called father - which included one’s own biological father, does it not?

 

[RogerDC]

Facts are facts.

What you call “facts” are what I call “idiotic fantasies from over-active imaginations”.

And you should be annoyed with your clerics for adopting pagan symbols and rituals.

Actually, there is nothing wrong with adopting certain pagan customs and reassigning them with a Christian meaning. The missionaries who worked in pagan lands understood the value of this approach to conversion, but you don’t.

Furthermore, there are probably thousands of pagan customs in the world that are completely harmless and can be safely indulged by Christians - eg, wedding rings, throwing confetti over newly-weds, the husband carrying his wife over the threshold, birthdays, anniversaries, Christmas, Easter, the Olympic Games, cremations.

 

[RogerDC]

So ignorant, explain to me how thew Holy Spirit is fallible, please explain to me how the Holy Spirit needs to interpret anything

You could begin your own church, based on what you think are Bible doctrines, and so could any other believer, but there would be points of difference between your church’s doctrines and the doctrines of another church. So which church do I accept has the correct doctrines - yours or someone else’s?

you are … ignorant of the things of God

I am aware that I love God and have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, and that if I abide in Him until the end I will be judged worthy of eternal life. Which “things of God” am I “ignorant” of?

By the way, I’ve noticed that your posts to me are becoming less and less rational and more and more hateful and insulting towards the Catholic Church. I was wondering if maybe this reason for this is that you’ve been neglecting to take your medication. ​