The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[mjrhealth]

My friend, I told you before, its all about our hearts and where we build from in our lives.
If you do not understand, it is because you build your life from a different place.

Jesus talked of blindness, and it is a real thing. If what I have shared makes you wonder where it came from I cannot help you.
These are about the realities of the heart and where is our passion in Christ and in life.

You believe you are acceptable to Jesus as you stand, and everything else is just done by Him.
It is a faith, and many obviously hold this view.

But in truth, I cannot accept that is the way, because Jesus tells me follow. And in following we are changed.
The reason why this emphasis grows in us, because it is true in our lives. The words could imply something else, which you clearly feel they do. And that is the beauty of Jesus, we choose and inherit the fruit of our walks. It is also why I condemn no one, I can just share the reality and light in which I walk. But then the aggression of people who walk in grace is enough to make us wonder do they know the risen Christ and His way at all. God bless you

I did not ask for a sermon, I asked where did you get all this from.

Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Luk 1:50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.
Luk 1:51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.

Its not about our Hearts its all about Him.

Mat_6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

 

[RogerDC]

I am striving to produce fruit and become like God, it does not happen automatically, if it did, we would all be christlike immediately

If you are already saved, why do strive to produce good fruit and become like God?

What if you don't produce good fruit? Are you still saved?

If you are already saved, why not give into temptation and sin? What is to be gained by overcoming temptation and not sinning?

 

[RogerDC]

I do too, that He gave me the power to be holy. No striving here. And it isn't for rewards as you keep lying about me.

So what do you do when you are tempted to sin? Do you not strive to overcome temptation and resist it? Or do you not strive at all and give into temptation every time?

Heb 12:14 says "strive ... for holiness, without which no one will see the Lord". So it's ok to strive for the reward of salvation. Jesus says seven times in Rev 2, 3 that those who "overcome" will be saved, so it's okay to strive for the reward of salvation.

 

[FollowHim]

I did not ask for a sermon, I asked where did you get all this from.

Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Luk 1:50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.
Luk 1:51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.

Its not about our Hearts its all about Him.

Mat_6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Such a small phrase. It's not about our hearts.

37 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.
Matt 22:37-39

This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart
Matt 18:35

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
Ezek 36:26

25 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean."
Matt 23:25-26

Everything is about Jesus and our hearts. Our hearts are to be filled with love and sharing. It is here that is Gods heart, as He shared Himself with us, so we should share ourselves with others.

This is why my friend your view and mine differ so much. God bless you
If we deny Jesus is speaking of our hearts and the change within, we have just Jesus outside and ourselves shut out of the Kingdom.

15 Let the peace of Christ be in control in your heart (for you were in fact called as one body to this peace), and be thankful.
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and exhorting one another with all wisdom, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, all with grace in your hearts to God.
17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Col 3:15-17

 

[mjrhealth]

Such a small phrase. It's not about our hearts.

37 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.
Matt 22:37-39

This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart
Matt 18:35

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
Ezek 36:26

25 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean."
Matt 23:25-26

Everything is about Jesus and our hearts. Our hearts are to be filled with love and sharing. It is here that is Gods heart, as He shared Himself with us, so we should share ourselves with others.

This is why my friend your view and mine differ so much. God bless you
If we deny Jesus is speaking of our hearts and the change within, we have just Jesus outside and ourselves shut out of the Kingdom.

15 Let the peace of Christ be in control in your heart (for you were in fact called as one body to this peace), and be thankful.
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and exhorting one another with all wisdom, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, all with grace in your hearts to God.
17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Col 3:15-17

All I have asked so far, is where did you get this from, reading the bible, church.. all I have so gar is a lot of word. Is it not such an easy thing to answer...

 

[FollowHim]

All I have asked so far, is where did you get this from, reading the bible, church.. all I have so gar is a lot of word. Is it not such an easy thing to answer...

I am quoting scripture, because that ultimately is the source. And yes all these things are a combination of church, teaching, fellowship, the Holy Spirit, experiences in my life etc. You are asking a question similar to how did you get this old? In that case is how did you avoid dying from x.

Jesus said something very profound.
27 My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
John 10:27

On these forums I have meet such a vast array of individuals, from guys who claim the power to create things our of nothing, ex-nihilo, to folk who are deeply religious in a contemplative sense.

Of the responses that seemed most reactionary, is the group who believe all legalists are evil and the biggest deceivers in the church.
The term legalist is used to mean anyone who holds a moral reference point, or believes one needs to be answerable for ones walk or believes in coming to faith it can go wrong and one fails. Of this group they all seemed to deny the value of a cleansed purified heart, singing praises to God, and claimed the law only condemned them, so found it hard to rejoice in the ways of Jesus.

I have pondered this and my experience with folk who from the start seemed to listen and rejoice in the words of Christ.
And for me, it is Jesus and His love, reaching out to our hearts and answering, yes I love, that brings life to our souls.
But this life is cleansing, purifying and changing us each and every day. And these people exist throughout the denmominations and different emphases in the Lord, so I just praise Him and His glorious message of hope and forgiveness. God bless you

 

[FollowHim]

All I have asked so far, is where did you get this from, reading the bible, church.. all I have so gar is a lot of word. Is it not such an easy thing to answer...

Here is the problem I face. Part of what believers of all types share is true, the emphasis is often the issue, the interpretation and ignoring other crucial and more important points. So we have a problem. Some will be of the Lord, growing and learning, while other weeds whose end in judgement and failure.

I wish I could have a succinct answer to everything, except often this subtle change here or there, leads to some very different results.
Gods word is eternal and works its way through to His people to carry them through.

It seems to me, some clearly do not know Jesus and their foundation is elsewhere. I can only speak to those who know the Lord, because to the rest it will appear foolishness. Over time I can often work out some reasons why, but this is pointless if the ultimate realities do not change. So I will listen to those who wish to share, as far as I can. God bless you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hardly anyone who has been truly born again fails.

ah but this shows there is a chance, so you still prove you feel one must strive not to fail so your not one of those “hardly any”

Problem is, there are not many examples of those who have been truly born again for you to examine. It seems you relate to those who have not been born again and who have to strive for they do not have the Spirit of God indwelling them. There are more of those than there are of the children of God. I was one of the unsaved pseudo-Christians for the first 30 years of my life. Striving is pretending. Striving is going against your carnal nature. Striving is forcing yourself to be good against your will.

It would take a lot for a child of God to willfully sin against God. It would be apostasy. But the normal child of God could not. It would be completely against their new divine nature. Paul implies they could go all the way back to perdition, even though they had been sanctified. They have trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace.

Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

I know you probably believe in OSAS, but there are passages that go against that liberal theory. This is one where a soul having been sanctified, has gone back to the path to hell.

1. you do not know me at all, so keep your assumptions of who I know to yourself
2. You just once again proved You believe you have to earn salvation by making sure you work hard not to be one of those people

Hence, before you judge others you need to look inward

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Actually, that is what I am doing. Aren't you one of those who doesn't believe in sinlessness? Have I been mistaken about you. If so, then I am sorry. Why do you want to be Christ-like?

So your sinless?

who would not want to be like Christ? A man who in all he did and in all his suffering had great joy,

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That is what I have been saying. It would be against your new nature to go back. It is easier to just walk in the Spirit. But Hebrews 10:26-39 was written for that person who willfully sins.

Hebrews is written for people Who want to to go back To law
And if your going to continue to try to twist things you have said when you are confronted and try to put them on me, our discussion will end

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Overpower grace? Grace is the Spirit of God. Paul has given us the command to not quench the Spirit. That should answer your first question.

I was one of the special ones who had to bear trials and learned strict obedience through 13 years of suffering. God delivered me from the point of being murdered. I can now walk a tightrope without stumbling to my death.

Ah,

I see a lot of YOU in here, and not much CHrist

see, once again, you show your faith is in yourself and your ability, then get mad at me when I call you out on it,

would it not just be easier to say yes, your right I need to give it all to christ?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If you are already saved, why do strive to produce good fruit and become like God?

What if you don't produce good fruit? Are you still saved?

If you are already saved, why not give into temptation and sin? What is to be gained by overcoming temptation and not sinning?

It is obvious you do know what producing fruit or salvation is, or you would not ask such questions

good day.

 

[mjrhealth]

I am quoting scripture, because that ultimately is the source.

Scripture is not the ultimate source, God Jesus and the Spirit of God are all that are reliable and Christ is the truth in Him there is no lie. Mens religion and churches have no authority and certainly are not reliable,\

There was a reason why in revelation it says, Come out of her My people, but so few willing, as for the sheep hear my voice, there is this part, and the voice of a stranger they will not follow, I know them and they know me.

There are none Good but God, not even you. Only one was ever found worthy His name is Jesus and you are not Him.

 

[FollowHim]

ah but this shows there is a chance, so you still prove you feel one must strive not to fail so your not one of those “hardly any”


1. you do not know me at all, so keep your assumptions of who I know to yourself
2. You just once again proved You believe you have to earn salvation by making sure you work hard not to be one of those people

Hence, before you judge others you need to look inward

"you do not know me at all"

I appreciate when people use this phrase. It is as if a stranger has just arrived, except they already have stated a lot of things about their own beliefs and positions, which declare either they were lying, or actually this statement is not true, in either case one is wrong and not true.

Its like having a shot gun and blowing off ones own foot. And once again it is demonstrated everything is just polarised into do nothing or if you do something that is evil. Not surprisingly people who follow this kind of ethic, are no different from the world, because any difference would be evil, and judgemental, and self righteous, and superior etc. It is like getting on the moral ship of God, and blasting holes below the water line, and watching it sink without trace, pointless.

 

[mjrhealth]

Here is the problem I face

The problem Christ faces is all the noise out there, babylon, egypt, men who come with enticing words, Christianty is all about Christ, it is not about mens churches, mens religions, mens wisdom or mens understanding, It is about Gods love for mankind and the works that Christ did to set men free, its not about us being good little children its about His righteousness,

Its about Christ and He is so often the one who is left out, we all desire to be like Him , but the pride of man is a terrible thing, even our own hearts deceive us,

none shall boast none.

 

[FollowHim]

Ah,

I see a lot of YOU in here, and not much CHrist

see, once again, you show your faith is in yourself and your ability, then get mad at me when I call you out on it,

would it not just be easier to say yes, your right I need to give it all to christ?

"I call you out on it" - this is so pompous. Is it our position to call others out?
This is just believers destroying believers, with almost identical theology, which to unbelievers just demonstrates they have no clue what they are talking about, and would rather take chunks out of one another, than follow Jesus who they claim is the saviour of the world.

If this is what the saviour of the world creates, who would want anything to do with it?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Ah,

I see a lot of YOU in here, and not much CHrist

see, once again, you show your faith is in yourself and your ability, then get mad at me when I call you out on it,

would it not just be easier to say yes, your right I need to give it all to christ?

I've had enough of you and your abuse. Clearly, you have no fruit of the Spirit. You can say and believe whatever you like, I won't see it, because you are going on ignore.

 

[CharismaticLady]

So what do you do when you are tempted to sin? Do you not strive to overcome temptation and resist it? Or do you not strive at all and give into temptation every time?

I just don't. I always take the path of escape provided by God, and resist the devil. What do you do?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Never said that, but grace did one thing it made allowance for the imperfect, seems everyone loves to boast of perfection and so have no need of grace.

It is by grace by faith....

Grace is NOT permission to sin and Paul speaks against your doctrine in Romans 6. The Grace of God is the Holy Spirit. That is what is different between the Old Covenant laws and the New Covenant way of fulfilling the righteous requirements of the law.

Romans 8:1-9
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

 

[CharismaticLady]

So what do you do when you are tempted to sin? Do you not strive to overcome temptation and resist it? Or do you not strive at all and give into temptation every time?

Heb 14:12 says "strive ... for holiness, without which no one will see the Lord". So it's ok to strive for the reward of salvation. Jesus says seven times in Rev 2, 3 that those who "overcome" will be saved, so it's okay to strive for the reward of salvation.

I was using the word "strive" as a quote from who I was talking to (who is now on ignore)