The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[Eternally Grateful]

'And grieve not the holy Spirit of God,
whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.'
(Ephesians 4:30)

Hello @Candidus,

Yes, it is possible for us to grieve the holy Spirit of God, whereby we are sealed unto the day of redemption: but that does not result in a loss of salvation. For we are 'sealed unto the day', and nothing can take that away (Romans 8:35 & 39)

Praise God!

You say (quote), 'God has never claimed that we had an unconditional guaranteed salvation', but, with respect, that is a statement that it is incumbent upon you to prove; not for me to disprove.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Amen, it is a big difference between saying do not grieve the HS and lose the seal and saying do nt grieve the HS whereby we ARE sealed....

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There is a problem with the verse Eph 4:30 "unto" or "for" This sealing is for the day of redemption, but there is no promise that the seal remains or it is guaranteed, while it lasts it shows the presence of the Lord in a life.

What would be interesting is how those who are sealed in Christ feel after they have fallen away.
The kings seal is a statement of authority for the message inside. If not broken the message is valid.
It does not guarantee it cannot be broken, by its nature seals are for the recipient to know the authority by which the message is given.

Looking at those who claim this seal so desperately and yet fail to acknowledge the ways of Christ, whatever seal they claim to have, their hearts are not dwelling in God or honouring the Holy Spirit who they claim is their guarantee. So for them I would suggest this language is just that, language.

what is interesting is thinking we are powerful enough to break the seal of God.

 

[BreadOfLife]

FYI bro
They think their history is infallible. so there is nothing you can say which will convince them otherwise. So to try to use history to try to show them something is never going to work.

And therein lies your problem.

There is no "MY" history or "YOUR" history or "THEIR". It's just history. Things that happened - actually happened in world chronology.
You approach is one of relativism - "MY" truth" vs. "YOUR" truth. Truth is NOT subjective - it either IS or isn't.

If you can't accept the truth of history - then you are living in a parallel universe . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

what is interesting is thinking we are powerful enough to break the seal of God.

God NEVER reneges on a promise.
However, Scripture warns us that WE can - and often DO . . .

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God “take away” somebody’s “share” of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

 

[charity]

There is a problem with the verse Eph 4:30 "unto" or "for" This sealing is for the day of redemption, but there is no promise that the seal remains or it is guaranteed, while it lasts it shows the presence of the Lord in a life.

What would be interesting is how those who are sealed in Christ feel after they have fallen away.
The kings seal is a statement of authority for the message inside. If not broken the message is valid.
It does not guarantee it cannot be broken, by its nature seals are for the recipient to know the authority by which the message is given.

Looking at those who claim this seal so desperately and yet fail to acknowledge the ways of Christ, whatever seal they claim to have, their hearts are not dwelling in God or honouring the Holy Spirit who they claim is their guarantee. So for them I would suggest this language is just that, language.

'In whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation:
in whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance
until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of His glory.'
(Eph 1:13)

Hello @FollowHim,

This letter to the Ephesians, is written to the faithful in Christ Jesus.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Eternally Grateful]

when you have this as your signature

"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton
Exposing anti-Catholic lies online for 17 years . . .

do not bother speaking to me. You have shown you are on a mission, and are thus closed to any form of discussion.

As I posted earlier. God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

Show some humility and some Christ like attributes and stop thinking God needs you to defend him.. And maybe, just maybe, I will once again converse with you

Until then, I can not believe a thing you say, because no matter what you say, it would be biased.

I am not anti catholic. and for you to say so just proves your bias. If a person disagrees in one of your doctrines, it does not make them acatholic haters. When you used that strawman argument against me a few days ago. I cut off all communication. Because no form of communication was possible. So my recommendation would be to either show some humility, Or just ignore my posts. Because I will not be responding directly to you anymore..

if you think that is because you scare me or because you think I can not argue against you. Well then so be it. If it makes you feel better, and I can serve you in that way, then so be it. I aim to serve..

either way, God knows the truth. and to me, That is all that matters.

 

[FollowHim]

'In whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation:
in whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance
until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of His glory.'
(Eph 1:13)

Hello @FollowHim,

This letter to the Ephesians, is written to the faithful in Christ Jesus.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

I understand Pauls emphasis. He is encouraging believers not to lose faith but to walk on, because they are sealed by the Holy Spirit as a testimony of what God has done in their lives. As the apostles knew God had chosen gentiles when the Holy Spirit fell on them after they repented. It was the anointing of Gods work, the outward appearance of His grace. What is worrying is when people want to the justify rebellion is ok, because such a blessing cannot be lost.

I have mused on this idea. Why did God choose King Saul to rule Israel even though he would fail. Without Saul there is no King David. God uses everything, and nothing is quite as it seems. We are the Lords servants and should take nothing for granted. The Lord judges rebellion and unbelief as Paul describes

20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Rom 11:20-21

There is a real hatred of fear, so anything that says fear or be afraid must be wrong.
I do not understand the idea that we are exalted above Gods justice and impartiality.

7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
11 For God does not show favoritism.
Rom 2:7-11

We need to be persistent in doing good. If we reject the truth and follow evil God will not spare us.
It is that plain. Now Gods elect will not go this, which suggests those who do such behaviour are not Gods elect.

Whether they were and left or never obtained the grace of God, I cannot say. My concern is about justifying evil in Gods people, which God has never blessed or condoned.

 

[FollowHim]

what is interesting is thinking we are powerful enough to break the seal of God.

You are assuming God has not enabled the seal to last only for as long as faith resides in the believer.
Paul created a theological dilemma. A believer cannot know God without having the Holy Spirit.
So what happens to the unbeliever who leaves faith and departs from the body.

Does the Holy Spirit continue in a defiled soul, someone who truly is lost and not able to return to faith and the walk?
I am not sure the apostles ever resolved this, because it is the Lords work in mans heart not ours.

King Saul walked with God, spoke with the prophets but was also tormented by a spirit. I suspect this is all about how the Lord works His purposes through everything, and nothing is that clear. If we knew who all the Judas people were would we hunt them out and reject them, or the weeds, or the elect. Jesus is clear all will be in the body, but the Lord lets everything grow because to weed it out would damage the elect too much.

What we are told is to confront sin, and deal with as a body, and to keep ourselves pure and holy in the Lords sight.
I now see we are to exercise faith, our emotional conclusion, the Holiness and purity He has created in us through the washing of His word, the blood of the lamb and the Holy Spirit through repentance and confession of sins. Clearly also not all sins are confessed, which is implied by this

16 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.
1 John 5:16

This verse suggests sin can be forgiven through prayer of a righteous saint for another brother in the Lord.
So easily we become legalists, point scoring, where love and grace works differently.

Our problem is these issues take time and spending time with the Lord to work through. Like all relationships hurt emotions heal and fade, things correct through intent and behaviour, rather than analysis and looking at the how and why in detail.

If things are defined by the Lord, then probably it is not definable for us, and best left alone. God bless you

 

[FollowHim]

Which promise trumps a previous promise.

I will save those who believe on Jesus.
I will judge those who sin and do evil, hating my principles.

These are two conflicting promises if a believer sins and rebels against God hating His principles.

God through Ezekiel defined His heirarchy. Walk away into evil and all the righteousness and forgiveness will be ignored.

24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die."
Ezek 18:24

How many times does a Holy God need to declare His Holiness? Once.
In grace God sends prophets with His message and His warning. Here it is. Those called righteous will die if the become like the wicked man. What was done before will not be remembered. God does not change.

I read today a particular fool who says Jesus's covenant ignores behaviour and only counts belief at some point in life.
Desperate people will invent their own faith, God is true to His word, His eternal word that does not change.

It is for us to face His word, work it through and walk in it. He expects nothing less.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are assuming God has not enabled the seal to last only for as long as faith resides in the believer.

I am not assuming anything

three places in scripture it is said we are sealed UNTIL the day of redemption.

I take God at his word when he says it once, But when he says it three times, Take heed and listen.

 

[FollowHim]

I am not assuming anything

three places in scripture it is said we are sealed UNTIL the day of redemption.

I take God at his word when he says it once, But when he says it three times, Take heed and listen.

30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Eph 4:30

19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."
2 Tim 2:19

21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us,
22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Cor 1:21-22

13 Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.
Eph 1:13-14

The presence of the Holy Spirit is our guarantee. What happens when people go dry, the Holy Spirit does not move, they feel like a dried branch on a hot day? Has the Lord left and their guarantee is no more, or they never had it, or they can be restored to fellowship?

I do not know, Paul is saying while we have the Holy Spirit we have a guarantee.
But some do not turn from wickedness so invalidate the seal.

Clearly some believe the Holy Spirit dwells in defiled sinful souls who hate God. Now that is quite a universalist theology, because this is communion between heaven and the enemy. I suggest we rejoice in Christ because of our being sealed in the Holy Spirit and leave the rest to God. Ironically some would say I am evil, possessed and never known God so it gets a bit confusing, good is evil and evil is good. God bless you

 

[BreadOfLife]

when you have this as your signature

do not bother speaking to me. You have shown you are on a mission, and are thus closed to any form of discussion.

As I posted earlier. God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

Show some humility and some Christ like attributes and stop thinking God needs you to defend him.. And maybe, just maybe, I will once again converse with you

Until then, I can not believe a thing you say, because no matter what you say, it would be biased.

I am not anti catholic. and for you to say so just proves your bias. If a person disagrees in one of your doctrines, it does not make them acatholic haters. When you used that strawman argument against me a few days ago. I cut off all communication. Because no form of communication was possible. So my recommendation would be to either show some humility, Or just ignore my posts. Because I will not be responding directly to you anymore..

if you think that is because you scare me or because you think I can not argue against you. Well then so be it. If it makes you feel better, and I can serve you in that way, then so be it. I aim to serve..

either way, God knows the truth. and to me, That is all that matters.

And conversely, when I read posts like yours – I see a refusal to have honest dialogue because of your preconceived ideas spawned by hatred and prejudice. The VERY reason that I am here to begin with.

The fact is that you cannot refute the several passages of Scripture I presented that destroy your false idea that we cannot fall away from God. That we are somehow held captive against our will. God doesn't need to kidnap you and force His love on you. He gives you a FREE WILL to decide for yourself whether or not you are going to stay with Him or NOT.

The verses I provided speak this truth LOUDLY . . .


PS - You're right about ONE thing:
God doesn't "need" me to defend Him - or anything else, for that matter.
He WANTS me to defend Him (1 Pet. 3:15).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

James 1:2-3 KJV
[2] My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; [3] Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

1 Peter 1:7-9 KJV
[7] That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: [8] Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: [9] Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

now I have answered your question, please answer mine...’Where does official Catholic teachings teach that “God doesn’t know all things “?

Did someone actually say this is what they teach?

 

[Marymog]

This is an interesting question.
I know historically of groups of believers responding to propoganda have done terrible things to their opposition, protestant and catholic in the wars of the reformation.

The Pope inspired the crusades to win Jerusalem back from the muslims etc.
The inquisition used some horrendous torture etc to deal with heretics etc.
After reading some investigations into the inquisition it is possibly Kings and the army taking on the role of the inquisition on behalf of a reluctant church to put down heretics. Unfortunately once you are embedded in the state, and preach loyalty to a creed which if opposed means you are satanic, maybe possessed, you will create a fevour of murder and punishment.

In the soviet union with secret churches I heard of groups who would be prepared to take out spies who were betraying the group, as a defence of the group.

So there are many groups linked to the faith who have actively sought to kill people who were the enemy. Groups I have belonged to, in those times, were often the target, of both Catholic and Protestant groups.

I would say if Jesus and morality is that fragile, their version is probably not worth defending. God bless you

Thank you.

 

[Marymog]

when you have this as your signature



do not bother speaking to me. You have shown you are on a mission, and are thus closed to any form of discussion.

As I posted earlier. God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

Show some humility and some Christ like attributes and stop thinking God needs you to defend him.. And maybe, just maybe, I will once again converse with you

Until then, I can not believe a thing you say, because no matter what you say, it would be biased.

I am not anti catholic. and for you to say so just proves your bias. If a person disagrees in one of your doctrines, it does not make them acatholic haters. When you used that strawman argument against me a few days ago. I cut off all communication. Because no form of communication was possible. So my recommendation would be to either show some humility, Or just ignore my posts. Because I will not be responding directly to you anymore..

if you think that is because you scare me or because you think I can not argue against you. Well then so be it. If it makes you feel better, and I can serve you in that way, then so be it. I aim to serve..

either way, God knows the truth. and to me, That is all that matters.

Lol.....you tell @BreadOfLife not to not bother speaking to you because of a quote he has as a signature on his avatar and then go on to tell him to show some Christ like attributes. Ummmmm....do you not expect the same for yourself? Or do you only expect Christ like attributes from others???

Curious Mary

 

[FollowHim]

'Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure,
having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His.
And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.'
(2 Timothy 2:19)

Hello @FollowHim,

In 2 Timothy 2:18, we see the effect of error, it, 'overthrew the faith of some'.
In 2 Timothy 2:19, we see the effect of truth, - 'the foundation of God standeth sure.'

So, 'let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.'

I will not discuss this further with you FollowHim.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Doing discipleship, part of the process is our walk and why it has value. Why did it take 3years for the disciples to know Jesus. No instant effect, but deep training. But what happens when people leave?

I wonder why asking a question like this causes issues. I need realistic answers. When truma hits some fall away, but are they lost, or can they come back. In our walk some never find Jesus but later the revelation comes. Some are church folk, was there up bringing counted for nothing?

So many end up writing off whole groups of people without grace and love. Praise the Lord you have faith,. God bless you

 

[mailmandan]

I am not assuming anything

three places in scripture it is said we are sealed UNTIL the day of redemption.

I take God at his word when he says it once, But when he says it three times, Take heed and listen.

Amen! Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Praise the Lord!

 

[FollowHim]

Amen! Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Praise the Lord!

What happens to believers who are not sealed or are not aware of the Holy Spirit?
Are they actually caste out, not found, empty?

Someone is born into the faith, goes to church all their life, are they saved?
The believe Jesus but nothing appears to change or happen.

Someone comes to faith, great show, fantastic experience, and then fades into the night as if nothing has happened.
Paul is addressing people who know the Holy Spirit in their hearts and he is encouraging them that this is a guarantee of what is to come, Amen.

Now some have argued vigorously, a believer comes to faith, is instantly saved, but without any change, that may or may not occur later. They will say the Holy Spirit is present, 100%, no matter what they do later in life. 100,000+ went forward at Billy Graham missions, yet of those very few remain. It strikes me heaven will be full of apathetic flash in the pans with this theology, stretching a small experience into the most significant one without any real reality. And the point is only to defend the idea sinners can enter heaven.

It is obvious once you row back and ask for some reality, you end up the response of man is part of Gods plan and way.

21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us,
22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Cor 1:21-22

God makes us stand firm in Christ. So God let people go, did not preserve them in the faith.
Paul could well have been a fatalist. We are in Gods hands, always and forever. God bless you

 

[prism]

Did someone actually say this is what they teach?

I was working from post #3990

It is not me that says it - scripture that says God didn’t know Abraham completely until he tested him - after God tested Abraham, God said “NOW I know that you fear God”. In other works, God knew something after the test that He didn’t know before the test.

and the fact that Roger DC identifies as 'Catholic' in his sidebar. It was only a question.

 

[RogerDC]

James 1:2-3 KJV
[2] My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; [3] Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

1 Peter 1:7-9 KJV
[7] That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: [8] Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: [9] Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

now I have answered your question, please answer mine...’Where does official Catholic teachings teach that “God doesn’t know all things “?

You haven't answered my question. Scripture says God tests our faith - if He knows us completely, why does He have to test us?

As for answering your irrelevant question, as far as I know, the Catholic Church does not teach that "God doesn't know all things".