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Featured The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Zachary, Jan 6, 2020.

  1. RogerDC

    RogerDC Active Member

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    So, according to you, Jesus chose a man (Judas) who had no faith in Him to be one of the twelve apostles … then sent him out to preach faith in Jesus. Imagine that - Jesus was so stupid, He sent out an unbeliever to preach belief - hilarious!
    But wait, it gets even funnier - Jesus gave this unbelieving apostle the power to cast out demons, cure all diseases and raise the dead! Laughter is the best medicine.
    Are you saying it was Judas belief in Jesus' name that cast out demons, not the power of Jesus Himself?
     
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  2. RogerDC

    RogerDC Active Member

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    Which is all irrelevant anyway. All this talk about being sealed won't matter come Judgement Day,


    Btw, do you consider yourself "sealed"? If so, how do you know? Did you get a certificate in the mail, or something? Maybe you woke up with a tattoo that says "sealed" on your forehead. Just wondering.
     
  3. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    Some people have a little faith, this bit,

    Heb_11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    and this

    Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
     
  4. RogerDC

    RogerDC Active Member

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    Jesus says some people “believe for a while” but then “fall away” (Luke 8:13). If the “seal” is received as soon as one believes, and then one loses faith, what happens to the “seal”? Obviously, the “seal” is lost if faith is lost.
     
  5. RogerDC

    RogerDC Active Member

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    So you’re implying that the eternal “seal” exists from the moment you believe. Jesus says some people “believe for a while” and then lose their faith and “fall away” (Luke 8:13). According to you, once you have the “seal” you can’t lose it, so if a believer loses his faith, he still has the “seal”, which is nonsense.

    Let me guess … you will say, “Oh, if a believer loses his faith, he wasn't a true believe and so didn’t receive the seal in the first place”, which unfortunately contradicts your claim that a believer receives the “seal” as soon as he believes.
     
  6. RogerDC

    RogerDC Active Member

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    It is certainly proving to be a waste of time - I asked you twice to explain why God tests our faith and hearts if He knows us completely, but as yet you have failed to provide said explanation.
    Sorry, no “twisting” involved - the text clearly implies God knew something about Abraham after the test that He didn’t know before the test. But since the scripture troubles you, just ignore it, or twist its meaning into something that doesn't trouble you.

    God gave us free will - does God know how we will use our free will before we use it? For example, if God knew Abraham would obey His commandment to sacrifice Isaac, why did He put Abraham to the test? Could it be that God didn’t know if Abraham would obey or not? After all, that is what the scripture implies.
     
  7. RogerDC

    RogerDC Active Member

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    Fair enough, but there are other verses to consider:
    ”now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith … is tested by fire (1Peter1:6-7);

    1Thess 2:4 says God “tests our hearts”;

    ”Blessed be the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love Him” (James 1:12).

    Then there the case of God testing Abraham by commanding him to sacrifice his son, Isaac:
    ”After these things, God tested Abraham … Do not lay you hand on the lad or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God” (Genesis 22:1-12).
    The text implies God knew something about Abraham after the test that He didn’t know before the test.

    Furthermore, your false OSAS theology means the scriptures that say God tests our hearts and our faith make no sense - if you are eternally saved as soon as you believe, there is no need for any such tests.
     
  8. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello @RogerDC,

    I understand what you are saying, and I appreciate why: but I believe that if someone is born from above by the Spirit of God, on the basis of the sacrificial work of Christ, then he is 'sealed' until the day of redemption. For the whole process of salvation is God's workmanship. From the planting of the seed, to it's harvest, it is the Lord's work. So it cannot fail.

    I have been reading 1 Corinthians this morning, of a company of believers in which there was a great deal of wrongdoing but there was never ever the threat of loss of salvation on Paul's lips, only encouragement and exhortation to recognise the presence of God among them, and to walk accordingly. Condemnation of the sin, but love for the sinner, because of the seed of faith that they bore.

    Thank you.
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
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  9. mailmandan

    mailmandan Well-Known Member

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    Amen sister! In regards to Luke 8:13, even though this shallow ground hearer is said to have "believed," he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved?" I will give the reasons. First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation. Unlike saving belief, temporary shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? It can't and it doesn't.

    IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. The rocky soil represents a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly rooted and established).

    The same Greek word for "believe" (pisteuo) is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons "believe" (pisteuo) "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

    John has portrayed people who "believe" to some level or degree but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation. As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their "belief" was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

    Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in.

    So there is no loss of genuine faith or salvation or being unsealed by the Holy Spirit here. Those who are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise are sealed until the redemption of the purchased possession. (Ephesians 1:13-14) Praise the Lord! :)
     
  10. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Well-Known Member

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    Amen, and like John said in his first epistle. They were never of us, IF they were of us they would have never departed.but they departed to expose the fact. They were never truly of us

    they believeD, but had no root. Of course who is the root but Christ.

    how can you be saved if you have no root? Without Christ there is no salvation
     
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  11. mailmandan

    mailmandan Well-Known Member

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    Amen! 1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
     
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  12. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Well-Known Member

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    Sadly, the words Never, eternal, and forever seem to have lost their meaning somewhere in time
     
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  13. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello @Dan,

    This is so clear, I do thank you for it. The parable of the sower came into my mind too, when I spoke of the seed sown in my entry prior to yours, and you had the same thought, obviously, and have taken it up and expounded it so beautifully: bringing out aspects which I would not have thought of.

    Thank you, brother in Christ.
    In Christ Jesus
    our risen and glorified
    Saviour, Lord and Head
    Chris
     
  14. prism

    prism Blood-Soaked

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    I gave you this answer, I guess you didn't comprehend it. Read carefully esp. the boldened part...
    James 1:2-3 KJV
    [2] My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; [3] Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

    1 Peter 1:7-9 KJV
    [7] That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: [8] Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: [9] Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

    So please enough with the false accusations.
    We obviously disagree on this issue, so how about dropping it now? Enough!
     
  15. RogerDC

    RogerDC Active Member

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    Of course not. We are not saved by works alone, but by faith and works. If you study the whole NT, you will learn this. In Rev 3:4, those who are “worthy” of salvation are those whose “works” (3:1) have not “soiled their garments” (3:4).

    In Rev 2 and 3, Jesus criticizes six of the seven Churches for their WORKS and warns them to repent - eg, “Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the WORKS you did at first (2:5).

    In Rev 2:23, Jesus says “I will give to you as your WORKS deserve … He who conquers and keeps my WORKS until the end, I will give him power over the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron … even as I myself have received power from my Father, and I will give him the morning star.”
    If works are irrelevant to salvation, why does Jesus place so much emphasis on WORKS?
     
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  16. RogerDC

    RogerDC Active Member

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    The "sacrificial work of Christ" does not mean you are eternally saved and "sealed" as soon as you believe. You can delude yourself with that nonsense if you like, but it won’t help you on Judgement Day - Christ will decide if you’re saved or not; your opinion will mean nothing.

    Furthermore, your belief is clearly unscriptural. For starters, scripture tell us that God tests our faith before we are granted salvation:
    ”now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith … is tested by fire (1Peter1:6-7);

    ”Blessed be the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love Him” (James 1:12).
    But according to your theology, you are saved before God tests your heart and your faith, which is clearly illogical.
    God loves everyone, even those He condemns to Hell, so don’t confuse love with justice.

    I suggest you read 1Corinthians more carefully. Paul in fact warns believers (in 1Cor 6:9-11) not to be “deceived” into believing that returning to their former sins won’t affect their salvation:
    ”Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God”.
    They were “sanctified … justified” by repenting of their former sins and Paul is warning them that if they fall into sin again they will put their salvation at risk.

    Paul issues the same dire warning in Gal 5:
    “Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God” (Galatians 5:19-21).
    Sin can destroy justification … therefore any hope of salvation.
     
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  17. RogerDC

    RogerDC Active Member

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    The reason for that is, no one is saved until after they die, are judged by Christ and are granted eternal life. You are confusing justification with salvation.
    How do you know you have “saving belief”? How do you know you will not be liked those in Luke 8:13 who “believe for a while” but then lost their faith? Do you have a crystal ball?

    The demons know - and therefore believe - that Jesus is the Son of God and is the Messiah, the Savior of humanity. So obviously, belief alone doesn’t save (as James 2:24 says). What saves is love of God - demons believe in Jesus and who He really is, but don’t love Jesus.
     
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  18. RogerDC

    RogerDC Active Member

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    This verse says the testing of our faith produces patience. Fair enough. But other verses imply that the testing of our faith is required before our salvation is granted - for example:
    ”now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith … is tested by fire (1Peter1:6-7);

    ”Blessed be the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love Him” (James 1:12);

    ”Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested … Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life” (Rev 2:10).

    If God knows us completely, why does He test our faith?

    Furthermore, if God knows our hearts completely, why does He test “our hearts” (1Thess 2:4)?
    This verse says God tests our faith in order that we be found worthy of salvation at the coming of Christ. But it doesn’t answer my question: If God knows us completely, why does He test our faith?
    I haven’t actually disagreed with your initial claim that God is omniscient - all I’ve done it ask you why God tests our hearts and our faith if He already with knows us completely. Speaking of which, you haven’t answered my question: If God knew Abraham completely, why did God test him by commanding him to sacrifice his son, Issac?

    And if God knew Abraham completely before the test, was does God say he came to know something about Abraham after the test that He didn’t know before the test?:
    “for NOW I know that you fear God” (Genesis 22:1-12).
     
  19. FollowHim

    FollowHim Well-Known Member

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    For some reason, emotional trauma, betrayal, judgementalism, hurt people have found the connection between trying to be good, balancing ones good works with evil deeds, a rejected belief system. The new adopted belief system says they are acceptable as they are, because God has done everything.

    As with all idealistic summaries, it is extend to a degree that is absurd. The need is acceptance by God and stopping OCD self condemnation. What is missed is are we worthy of being judged and does God bring hope for change?

    For whatever reason "hope for change" is rejected as unbelief, because of its association with proving value in the balance of good and evil. Scripture repeatedly says if one walks righteously in faith, one will be forgiven and cleansed, and the evil done in the past forgotten, taken away.

    If one cannot see change is part of the gospel, part of repentance (hebrew regret, return, greek, change ones heart, direction, mindset) is change, absolute and complete, then is one a christian at all?

    If a person claims they can sin and knowingly not repent, feel sorrow, desire to be different but arrogantly assume God forgives them, they are no longer part of Judaism or Christianity.

    Works are the absolute outflow of repentance, of entering the Kingdom of Jesus, heaven, and being filled with love from the heart. As John describes

    9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.
    10 Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble.
    11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.
    1 John 2:9-11

    These are two realities, polarised, without compromise.

    I wonder if people fear that in their hearts they will discover they are not in the Kingdom? But if this is so, God is faithful, if they repent and put their faith in Him love will spring from their hearts and lives. It is because this love is not our own, it is love that God grants us, that He sets free. It is a miracle of grace, the work of the cross, the start of the reality of knowing Jesus. But equally if so many are clouded in darkness, and love shut out, this sounds like a alien testimony and a place they have not gone, yet for them they have faith and know the truth. Maybe they will have ears to hear, and God may grant them repentance.

    God bless you
     
  20. prism

    prism Blood-Soaked

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    He tests us to reveal to us and others what is actually there and to purify us.
    Otherwise our hearts easily are deceived being desperately wicked.


    2 Timothy 2:21 NET
    [21] So if someone cleanses himself (through enduring trials) of such behavior, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart, useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.
     
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