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Featured The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Zachary, Jan 6, 2020.

  1. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    WRONG.
    It is a PRErequisite.

    Clergy members don’t have celibacy thrust upon them later on. They can choose to live a life of celibacy or not. NOBODY is “forced”. THAT was Paul’s message in 1 Cor. 7 – so your point is nonsense.

    You’re so used to being dishonest that it seems you can’t help yourself.
     
  2. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Dodging the question again.
    What a surprise.
     
  3. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    To join the RCC clergy it is forced.
    This of course in not found in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.
    This of course is scriptural dishonesty to their clergy.
    This of course does not make them any holier(obviously).
     
  4. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    That’s a lie – it’s not “forced” at ALL.

    That’s as stupid as saying that you are “forced” to go through Basic Training. You ONLY have to go through it IF you join the military.
    Nobody is “forced” to be monogamous because they are not “forced” to be married.

    Those who join the Catholic clergy know FULL well before they enter the seminary that the discipline of celibacy is expected of them. Nobody is “forced” to become a clergy member.

    Get back to me when you’re ready to stop lying.
    We MIGHT be able to have a fruitful conversation . . .
     
  5. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    Had Abraham NOT been obedient he would not have been justified. It was because hos faith included obedience that he was justified. His obedience before God is why God justified him. What Abraham did before man was not why he was justified.


    No, it doesn't. Again If Romans 4:5 or Eph 2:9 exclude obedience then that excludes man from serving "obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and has man serving "sin unto death".

    Faith void of obedience does not save, that is why the Bible says faith only does not justify. Again, there is no example in the Bible of a sinner who God saved while that sinner continued in disobedience to the will of God. Obedience is necessary for one to serve "obedience unto righteousness" for there is no such thing as "disobedience unto righteousness".


    --this is not an example of how one is saved under the NT gospel that requires belief repentance, confession and baptism for remission of sin, Hebrews 9:16-17. This occurred before the NT gospel came into effect.
    --the blind man's faith moved him to inquire about Jesus (vs 36,37) cried for Jesus, (v 38) asked for mercy (v 38), shouted more (v 39), followed Jesus (v 43). A display of faith that could be seen in calling to Jesus against those telling him to be quite, begging for mercy and following Christ.



    One cannot be saved unless, until he first repents Luke 13:3. Repentance is before remission of sin in Acts 2:38. Repentance is unto life Acts 11:18. Hence the obedient work of repentance does save.


    Salvation is by obedience to God's will and not by works of the law or works of merit.


    I've never said one is saved by doing good works. But the Bible teaches one is saved by obedience to the will of God. An atheist can do many good works but those good works will not save him. Not until the atheist obeys God's will in believing, repentance, confession and submitting to baptism can he be saved. Eph 2:9 excludes works of merit but not obedience to the will of God.


    Ephesians 2:10 says Christians have been "before ordained" to do good works. Titus 2:14; Titus 3:8; Titus 3:14. In Matthew 25 those disciples that ad no good works went into everlasting punishment for they "did not"


    These verses do not say God expects man to be perfectly sinless on his own apart from Christ. But the Christian can be without spot and blameless (2 Peter 3:14) by being in Christ and it takes obedience to be in Christ.


    Works of the law or works of merit is not included in grace. But obedience to God's will is, man's obedience and God's grace go hand in hand.

    Again Romans 6:16 if one is not being obedient, is not serving obedience unto righteousness then one is serving sin unto death by his disobedience.


    It certainly is. The BIble only gives two options 1) saved 2) lost. And Paul puts those two options forth in Romans 6:16 one is lost by serving sin unto death or saved by obedience unto righteousness. No other options given for there are no others than these two.


    Nope. Romans 6:16 is death knell to luther's faith only. Te faith onlyist will not say he is serving sin unto death yet at the same time Luther's faith only keeps one from serving obedience unto righteousness leaving the faith onlyist between a rock and a hard place. You try and get out of that bind by claimg righteousness does not mean salvation n Rom 6:16 when t does. Again, we just have two options 1) saved 2) lost and Paul puts these two options forth in Romans 6:16.


    .

    obedience unto salvation Romans 6:16
    Hebrews 5:9 Christ saves those who obey Him
    Mark 16;16 puts obedience in believing and repenting BEFORE saved
    Acts 2:38 puts obedience in repenting and being baptized BEFORE remission of sins
    Romans 10:9-10 put belief and confession BEFORE salvation


    God does not contradict Himself as faith only contradicts the Bible. Again, how can Abraham be one who "worketh not" (Romans 4:5) when in fact he DID DO OBEDIENT WORKS per Hebrews 11:8,17 and was justified by those obedient works.

    You have yet to show where God saved the disobedient while remaining in disobedience.


    ---Faith only does not justify, James 2:24. Luther was wrong, deadly wrong. Why do men follow Luther rather than Christ?
    ---I have never said good works are unto salvation so that is a straw man. Again, an atheist can do many good works, can give to the poor, feed the hungry, clothe the naked but those good works are NOT UNTO SALVATION. To be saved the atheist must obey God in what God says saves in believing John 3:16 repentance Luke 13:3 confession Mt 10:32-33 and be baptized Mark 16:16 hence obedience is unto salvation.
     
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  6. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Since I have not lied and neither have I supported a lie...you are taking on the nature of the accuser of the brethren.

    What justified him was his faith...which produced obedience before God. His obedience was the evidence that his faith was genuine...so without it he would not be justified. However, it is not obedience which saves, but the faith that produces obedience, that saves.

    Ephesians 2:8-9 does indeed show that works/obedient action are not included in faith. A man is not justified by works; but is justified through faith. How then is works involved in faith? If a man were saved by faith he would also be saved by works; if indeed works be involved in faith. But a man is not saved by works (Ephesians 2:9).

    What Ephesians 2:9 and Romans 4:5 do is to say that works/obedience do not save a man. This is not to say that the man who is saved will not be obedient; for obedience is the sure result of being saved. Therefore if someone is not obedient, you can pretty much determine that they aren't saved. Nevertheless scripture is clear, that we are not saved by/through our works/obedience.

    And I have been stating simply that real faith is an obedient attitude, which will most assuredly produce good works. However, works do not save (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-8, Titus 3:4-7, Romans 11:5-6 (kjv)).

    Are there any stories whatsoever of people who got saved after the NT gospel came into effect? You are excluding any testimony from the gospels as being valid. However, what of Acts? Is not the Philippian jailer a good example of a man who was saved merely by "believing on the Lord Jesus Christ"?

    :rolleyes: Romans 4:2.

    I do not consider repentance to be a work of man. It is something that the Holy Spirit does; and man responds to that work either by hearing and receiving or rejecting the work of the Holy Spirit.

    How much obedience is required?

    Again, how much obedience will save a man?

    Galatians 3:10, James 2:10-12, and Matthew 5:48, if one would look them up, do indeed teach that apart from Christ, (and if a man seeks to be justified by works,) a man is required to obey the law perfectly from conception into eternity.

    Righteousness does not necessarily save a man. Confession must be made (Romans 10:10).

    And righteousness, in Romans 10:10, is achieved not by obedience but by faith. However, faith produces obedience because it is an obedient attitude.

    We can move forward from mere faith-only doctrine; while keeping it: by understanding that if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: the old has gone: behold, all things have become new! (2 Corinthians 5:17)

    Therefore a living faith is unto real, practical, righteousness (Romans 10:10).

    Again, righteousness is not necessarily unto salvation. A person who hungers and thirsts after righteousness shall be filled. But the same person may have never heard the gospel and therefore could not have been saved by it. Is not Cornelius a prime example of this? My own personal testimony also bears witness to the fact. I became very righteous in High School but I do not believe that I had salvation; until I went to a conference and heard the real gospel as it is proclaimed in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

    Romans 4:5 is not necessarily speaking of only Abraham. It is given as a generic example of someone whose faith is accounted for righteousness. This takes place even though they "work not" but only "believe on him that justifieth the ungodly".

    It is not that we follow Luther. It is that Luther was theologically correct when it came to the biblical doctrine of justification by faith. That it is in fact a biblical doctrine.

    In Mark 16:16, it does not state that if you are not baptized, you will not be saved. It only says that concerning faith. Mark 16:16 therefore, sets forth believer's baptism as a guarantee of salvation; with the "shall" in that verse as opposed to the "should' in John 3:16.

    Believing, repentance, confession (and even baptism) are things that I would not identify as works (except of the Holy Spirit on a man's heart and life).
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  7. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    If someone dares to join the RCC clergy, are the officials only suggesting for them abstinence or demanding abstinence?
     
  8. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    Your debunking God... does your understanding over ride Gods will... or Gods love.
     
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  9. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    You do not understand biblical foreknowledge.
    This is a common mistake.
    God knows those who are His by Divine Covenant.
    The Father gave those children to the Son.Hebrews2:13-16
    Roman's 8:29-30....whom.....whom....whom...whom...
    Those WHOM He foreknow
    Those whom He set His love upon
     
  10. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Why, in your opinion, does God set His love on some, and not on others?
     
  11. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    This is not God's will?...


    16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
     
  12. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    No – Calvin had it wrong when it came to Biblical foreknowledge.

    God is outside of time and sees ALL of eternity simultaneously. He knows exactly who chose Him and who rejected Him.

    Calvin, however, turned God into a monster who drags people kicking and screaming into Heaven against their will - and throws people kicking and screaming into Hell against their will. This is NOT how Scripture describes the process – and this is NOT love.

    John 3:16 states emphatically that:
    For God so LOVED THE WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    1 Tim. 2:3-4 tells us in NO uncertain terms:
    This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ALL PEOPLE TO BE SAVED and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    When Jesus was rebuking the Pharisees in Jerusalem, he shouted:
    Matt. 23:37
    “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and YOU WERE NOT WILLING.


    In short – it is OUR choice because God is above ALL things, as JUST God.
    He doesn’t force His love – OR His justice on anybody.
     
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  13. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    “Abstinence”??
    You mean celibacy.

    Celibacy is a discipline that EVERY man who is discerning the priesthood knows well in advance.
    As I pointed out to you – which you have dishonestly ignored – this is the same as a bachelor who is discerning marriage and knows in advance that monogamy is expected of him. Nobody is “forcing” him to do anything – and nobody “forces” a man to become a priest.

    Your argument is dead on arrival . . .
     
  14. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    At best – I am holding a sister in Christ accountable.

    At worst – you’re not even a sister in Christ because, if you deny the Trinity – you believe in a different “christ” altogether.
     
  15. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    Nope, it is like a dress code at a business...do it or leave.
    This "discipline" is supposed to be optional as a believers(non clergy), choice per Paul.
    The RCC tweaked it to be exclusively forced, mandatory and law on those that desire clergy.
     
  16. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    And there you go showing your ignorance again.

    First of all - Priestly celibacy isn’t a matter of Church “Law”. It’s a matter if discipline, Einstein - similar to abstaining from meat on Fridays during Lent. Disciplines can and DO change.

    Anyway, your comparison is foolish because nobody is “forced” to become a Priest.
    It is optional, so, ultimately, priestly celibacy is also optional.
     
  17. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    [QUOTE="justbyfaith, post: 681012, member: 7886]



    What justified him was his faith...which produced obedience before God. His obedience was the evidence that his faith was genuine...so without it he would not be justified. However, it is not obedience which saves, but the faith that produces obedience, that saves.[/quote]

    It was not faith alone that justified Abraham but his obedience faith in doing as God said. Had Abraham had' faith only' in Gen 12 and not moved as commanded by God he would never had been justified in his disobedience. It was because he had a faithful obedience and obeyed (Hebrews 11:8) as to why he was justified.

    1 John 3:10 as long as one continues to disobey God (do unrighteousness) one continues to not be of God. I takes obedience in order for one to be of God.


    From John 3:36; John 6:27-29; Mark 2:1-5; Romans 10:9-10 Romans 6:16, all show that faith/belief is a work, form of obedience. If Ephesians 2:9 eliminates obedience then it eliminates the faith of verse 8. But Ephesians 2:9 eliminates works of merit not obedience such as believing.



    In context neither Romans 4:5 or Eph 2:9 eliminate obedience.

    You have not yet shown anyone saved while remaining in rebellious, disobedience to God.


    You have not yet shown anyone saved while remaining in rebellious, disobedience to God.


    The NT gospel would not come into effect until some time AFTER Christ died, Hebrews 9:17-18. Acts 2 happens AFTER Christ died when His NT went into effect with Peter preaching the first recorded NT gospel sermon preaching repentance and remission of sins (Luke 24:47) in which God requires obedience (repent and be baptized) BEFORE salvation (remission of sins).

    Acts 16:34 "And he brought them up into his house, and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his house, having believed in God."

    The participle phrase "having believed" includes all the jailer had just done including repentance (washing stripes) and being baptized. Hence "believed" is used as a synecdoche where it includes repentance and baptism. As "all that believed" in Acts 2:44 includes those who were baptized in Acts 2:41.


    Abraham was justified by works James 2. And James 2 does not contradict Romans 4:2 because the works referred to in Romans 4:3 according to CONEXT are works of the OT law that do not justify and James speaks of obedient works to God's will that does justify.

    You have created a contradiction between James and Paul for instead of following Bible context, you substitute your faith only theology into the contexts.

    You have not yet shown anyone saved while remaining in rebellious, disobedience to God.


    God has commanded man to repent, it therefore is upon man to do the works meet for repentance. Therefore no verse says the Holy Spirit does this work for man. God ahs not commanded to the Holy Spirit to repent for man.

    You have not yet shown anyone saved while remaining in rebellious, disobedience to God.


    Belief (John 3:16) repentance (Luke 13:3) confession (Matthew 10:32-33 and baptism (Mark 16:16) is all God requires of the sinner to find initial salvation.

    No amount of disobedience will save a man. You have not yet shown anyone saved while remaining in rebellious, disobedience to God.

    The OT law of Moses required sinless, perfect perfection in order to be justified. All the NT requires is a simple faithful obedience which includes repentance for those times the Christian falls short of God's will and sins. In the NT being "in Christ" is why the Christian continually has all sins washed away by the blood of Christ (1 John 1:7) which is what keeps the Christian without spot and wrinkle before God and it takes a faithful obedience to get in Christ and remain in Christ.


    belief, repentance, confession and baptism are all a part of God's righteousness. They are all obedience to God's righteousness therefore this is why Romans 10:9-10 says believeth UNTO righteousness, confession UNTO salvation. Hence obedience in believing and confessing leads one to salvation....obedience before salvation.




    The gospel contains God's righteousness. Obviously then one must first hear the gospel before the is able to submit, obey God's righteous commands. Then obeying God's righteousness always leads to salvation, it certain does not lead to condemnation and salvation and condemnation are the only two options available to man. WE each are serving wither sin unto death (condemnation) or serving obedience unto righteousness (salvation) Romans 6:16. There are no other options than these two 1) lost 2) saved. Now we see why you keep arguing "righteousness is not necessarily unto salvation" for you have a theology bias (faith only) to protect.


    Romans 4 is speaking about all Jews and Gentiles. Paul shows in Romans chapters 1 and 2 that all (Jew and Gentile) are under sin and those under sin are in need of justification. Paul spends the first half of Romans 3 speaking about the OT law that was given to the Jews. It gave the Jews an advantage over the Gentile but it could not justify. We know Jew and Gentile are under sin and are need of justification and we learn form the first half of Romans 3 that works of the OT law (the law given to Jew) cannot justify Jew nor Gentile for it required perfect flawless law keeping. Since the perfect flawless works required by the OT law cannot justify Jew or Gentile, then what Paul will justify Jew and Gentile? In the latter half of Romans 3 Paul tells us what will justify both Jew and Gentile and that is FAITH. Nowhere did Paul say faith only justifies. Faith only-ist ADD the word "only to the context.

    Romans 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

    Again, Paul begins Romans 3 by showing the flawless works required by the OT law, (though that law was an advantage to the Jew), could not justify the Jew or Gentile. But what justifies is faith. So here in verse 28 Paul is making a contrast between faith and deeds required by the OT law and NOT a contrast between faith and ALL works of all king including obedience. Again, faith only-ists assume that into the text.

    In Romans 4 Paul gives us an example of a Jew (David) and Gentile (Abraham) both under sin and in need of justification and shows in verse 2 that neither man was justified by the flawless works required by the OT law but both justified by faith, not faith only for both men were obedient to God's will. If David and Abraham could have kept the law perfectly sinless then they would have something to glory about, their reward would have been of debt and not of grace. But neither man did keep the law perfectly so their justification was of God's grace and their obedient faith.
     
  18. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    Luther was in uninspired theologian who was wrong. Luther was right about the errors of Catholicism's meritous works but Luther went to the extreme in the other direction with his faith only.

    Jesus made repentance (Luke 13:3) just as necessary to belief (John 3:16) in not perishing meaning all the belief only in the world will never save one who will not repent. Nor did Jesus ever say a person will unconditionally impenitently first be saved then he can repent.


    Mark 16:16 is a compound sentence with two subjects 1) salvation 2) condemnation.

    If one wants to be saved then look to 16(a) that has two conditions to be saved, those two requirements being "believeth AND is baptized". The conjunction "and" ties the two together making them inseparable.

    If one desires to be lost then look to 16(b) where there is just one conditon to being lost; unbelief.

    --it does not take two conditions to be lost in unbelief and not being baptized but just one condition needs to be met: unbelief.
    --in 16(a) Christ made belief a prerequisite to being baptized meaning an unbelieving person cannot be baptized. Therefore in 16(b) when Christ said "he that believeth not" we know that "believeth not" already includes not being baptism since one must first believe before he can be baptized. Hence it does not have to say "not baptized" since "not baptized" is already included in unbelief.
     
  19. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    In Catholicism, those who want to be in the ministry are forbidden to marry.

    It is made to be a condition for being in the ministry that a man remain celibate.

    The restriction is effectively placed on those who want to be in ministry.

    1Ti 3:1, This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

    Those who have this desire are effectively restricted as concerning their personal lives by the Catholic Church...and I would say that this is a fulfillment of 1 Timothy 4:1-3.

    As one who has the desire to operate in ministry, I know that I would feel the effects of that if I were in the Catholic Church.

    That's because I'm a brother in Christ...if in fact, you are saved.

    I don't deny the Trinity. But I do emphasize the "unity" in "Tri-unity"

    That's what I'm saying. Ephesians 2:9 teaches that salvation is not of works; but it is of faith (Ephesians 2:8): and therefore works are not a part of faith. And Ephesians 2:9 teaches that salvation is not of works period; not just works "of merit"; because it doesn't say works "of merit" it just says "works."

    I wouldn't normally want to. But since you brought up the challenge, how about Aaron "the saint of the LORD" (Psalms 106:16)? The same Aaron who created the golden calf?

    Of course it doesn't. Romans 4:2 simply teaches us how to interpret James 2, by showing us that the justification by works in James 2 is before man and not God.

    Not that I can see.

    And yet my faith-only theology finds no biblical contradiction; there is perfect harmony with all verses within my theology.

    2 Timothy 2:25.

    It does not require obedience, but an obedient attitude (faith); of which obedience is sure to follow.

    Yay! we are in agreement.

    I think that the Bible does not use the word "only" but it does speak of righteousness being imputed "apart from works" (Romans 4:5-6).

    Romans 3:28 is not the only verse we are to take into consideration. The primary verse that I would point you to is Romans 4:6; which speaks of works period; as well as Ephesians 2:9.

    Their obedience didn't save them...their faith was the accomplishing factor in that.

    Since faith is an obedient attitude, I will agree: because Ephesians 2:8 tells us that we are saved by grace through faith.

    Therefore, if I believe and am not baptized, I should not perish (John 3:16).

    I do believe that there have been those who were baptized in history who didn't believe. How about infant baptisms?
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
  20. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    That’s not true.
    There are other ministries that allow marriage – such as the permanent diaconate.

    As for 1 Tim. 4:1-3 – once again, you need to do your homework. This is talking about the GNOSTIC HERETICS – not the Catholic Church.
    The Gnostics forbade marriage for everyone.
    They abstained from meat completely.
    They held that ALL tangible material matter was evil.

    Next time – STUDY your Bible – don’t just quote it . . .
    I don’t know why I thought you were female – but I apologize. I should have said that if you don’t believe in the Trinity – you are not a brother in Christ because you have invented a different “christ” altogether.
    That being said – we have argued about the Trinity and yours is not an orthodox Christian view.

    The Trinity is:
    The Father, who is NOT the Son OR the Holy Spirit.
    The Son, who is NOT the Father OR the Holy Spirit.
    The Holy Spirit, who is NOT the Father OR the Son.

    He is ONE God manifested in THREE distinct Persons.
    ANY other definition of God is not Christian.
     
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