The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

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justbyfaith

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An anti-Catholic is a person who will go to ANY lengths to decry the Catholic Church and its teachings - and will not stop at lying.
Again, I have not lied in any regard; and neither do I go to any great lengths to decry the Catholic Church, accuser.

The fact is that as long as you worship a vicar in place of Christ, and/or consider that the Cross of Christ is not all-sufficient to bring you forgiveness of sins (but that Mary is co-redemptress) your soul is in mortal danger.

I only wish to see your soul set free from the damnation that awaits you over this.

If I am truly anti-Catholicism, that is different from being anti-Catholic.

You love the sinner and hate the sin.

I am not against Catholics; I am against Catholicism.
 
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Truther

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This verse doesn’t mean that you no longer sin, Einstein.
It means that we Christians have an “out”, which is Christ.

As I educated you earlier –
- Paul admits to sinning (Rom. 7:15-25).
- John
admits to sinning (1 John 1:8).
- James
tells us that we still sin (James 5:16).

Only YOU are arrogant enough to believe that you are “above” them.

You make it soooooo easy . . . .
What part of “put away sin” do you not understand?

Is this misunderstanding why priests retrieve folks’ sins?
 

Truther

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Nope, I'm a father.
If sex is the most important thing in life to you - I pray you're not . . .
No, but being a dad is a close second to my call of God.
I had a natural desire from God to become a dad to kids.
Priests only wish they could, but their masters refuse to let them....unscripturally.
This “castration” of men is to keep nepotism in check.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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No, they are 16th century man made inventions that are easily-refutable with Scripture.

You Calvinists have been had . . .
As an Ex catholic I can say it is not Calvinists who have been had,lol

Now can we go to scripture on any area? then we can make progress. I would like to help you.
 

justbyfaith

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As an Ex catholic I can say it is not Calvinists who have been had,lol

Now can we go to scripture on any area? then we can make progress. I would like to help you.
Anthony, my concern with Calvinism has to do with the fact that it appears to deny what Jesus said in John 6:37. "He that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

It appears to me to teach that if God did not choose you, you cannot be saved no matter how hard you try to come to Him; because He didn't choose you. You can come to Him but He can and will cast you out if you have not been chosen by Him.

Your thoughts?
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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Hello Jbf,
Read that whole verse right down to verse44.
All the Father gives shall come,
No man can come unless the Father draw him. In John 3 whosoever is not in the verse but what the verse does say is every believing one everyone who believes and continues to believe will be saved so the promise is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and that will be saved.
God is not playing some kind of cat and mouse game where He offers salvation and withdraws it ,saying you didn't do enough you didn't jump high enough he says whoever believes every every believing one who continues on in in belief will be saved .
then again 2nd Peter 1 verse 3 to 11 Peter outlines what this saving Grace is and what virtues should be in our life as the Spirit of God is at work.
he says to make your calling and election sure if you do these things you'll never fail.
it is not contingent .
the idea is if you are doing those things you are not going to fail because the grace of God is not going to fail.
God keeps us .
Philippians 1:6 it says he who has begun a good work in you will perform until the day of Christ so if your salvation is of God you are going to continue on in the faith evidence of the faith is continuance in the faith.it's not a works salvation but it's a Salvation that works.
 

justbyfaith

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Does not Calvinism teach that we do not choose God but God chooses us?

Therefore, it seems to me, that if God did not choose us, we cannot choose Him; or that, if we do choose Him, but He did not choose us, we are out of luck.

The Bible, on the other hand, tells us that if anyone comes to Jesus He will in no wise cast them out.

It seems to me that in Calvinism, the doctrine of Limited Atonement and Unconditional Election precludes that we do not have a choice in the matter but it is entirely up to God.

And this also presents another problem, that of evangelism.

Since we do not choose God, there is no need to evangelize! Everyone is predetermined before the foundation of the world whether they will go to heaven or hell and therefore their choice in the matter doesn't make a difference. Therefore it would be moot to try to encourage the sinner to make a decision for Christ.
 

BreadOfLife

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What I have done is searched the scriptures to find out what the Trinity is all about...and derived my understanding of God and the Trinity from the holy scriptures.
No - what YOU have done is reject the revealed truth of God that has been the constant living belief of His Church for 2000 years because it because YOU lacked the faith to believe it.
That's what your theological divorce is all about - YOU.
Actually, 1 John 1:8 speaks of those who say that they have no sin...which is different from saying that we do not sin.

1 John 1:8 was not an admission by John to committing practical sin in his present life at that time. It was him saying that he was indwelt by the element of sin.

Romans 7:14-25 is Paul using the literary tactic of IDENTIFICATION to define carnality. 1 Corinthians 9:22 shows forth Paul's reasoning for using this tactic. But 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 tells us that there are two types...carnal and spiritual. And I believe that 2 Peter 1:21 shows clearly that Paul was not carnal but spiritual when he penned the holy scriptures in Romans 7:14-25.

James 5:16 does not preclude that there is no second benefit (see 2 Corinthians 1:15; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:14, 1 John 3:9) in which a man is wholly sanctified (see also 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 2:6; Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10).
Wrong.

John is making the statement about sin - period.
And in Rom. 7, Paul details the effects of this sin in his own - and ALL of our lives.
Here, he is talking about sin that dwells within him:
Rom. 7:13-14
Did the good, then, become death for me? Of course not! Sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin, worked death in me through the good, so that sin might become sinful beyond measure through the commandment.
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold into slavery to sin.


Now HERE’s the part where he admits to stumbling in sin – as we ALL do:
Rom. 7:15
WHAT I DO, I do not understand. For I do not do what I want, BUT I DO WHAT I HATE.

You are WRONG when you arrogantly claim that you do NOT sin because the Apostles themselves admit to stumbling.
Furthermore – James, speaking to BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS says the following:
James 5:16
Therefore, CONFESS YOUR SINS to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.

Your arrogant claim is nothing short of counterfeit quasi-Christianity.
We are indeed forgiven of past, present, and future sins (Romans 4:8, Romans 8:38-39, Hebrews 9:12) when we come to faith in Christ.
WRONG.
This is a counterfeit doctrine.

We are forgiven ONLY when we repent. the Bible is FILLED with warnings to converted, born again Christians to NOT fall back into a life of willful sin or they may LOSE their security:
Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God “take away” somebody’s “share” of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

There's that fruit again that I love to see in you.
I'm holding you accountable to the truth.
That's what I'm supposed to do (John 7:24, Matt. 18:15).[/QUOTE]
 
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BreadOfLife

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Again, I have not lied in any regard; and neither do I go to any great lengths to decry the Catholic Church, accuser.
The fact is that as long as you worship a vicar in place of Christ, and/or consider that the Cross of Christ is not all-sufficient to bring you forgiveness of sins (but that Mary is co-redemptress) your soul is in mortal danger.

I only wish to see your soul set free from the damnation that awaits you over this.
If I am truly anti-Catholicism, that is different from being anti-Catholic.

You love the sinner and hate the sin.

I am not against Catholics; I am against Catholicism.
And there you go again LYING, which proves my point that you are an anti-Catholic and not simply one show "disagrees" with Catholic teaching.

The Pope is not "worshiped". Worship of ANYBODY or ANYTHING other than Almighty God is strictly forbidden by the 1st Commandment - as well as the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c1a1.htm


Consider yourself exposed - again . . .
 
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BreadOfLife

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26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
He put away sin.
Why are your priests pulling them out of yesterdays closets?
Aren't you guys into Jesus' sacrifice?
Leave it to YOU to cherry-pick Scripture so you can pervert it.
THIS is what it says in context”
Heb. 9:24-26

For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

NOW – compare this with the following words from just TWO chapters before:
Heb. 7:25
Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since HE ALWAYS LIVES TO MAKE INTERCESSION FOR THEM.

Rev. 13:8 reminds us – as does Heb. 7:25 tells us that Christ’s sacrifice is ETERNAL.
Heb 9:24 is simply making the case that He doesn’t DIE over and over. His sacrifice - and intercession is FOREVER.

Your understanding of Scripture is pathetic . . .
 
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BreadOfLife

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Lol.
As the priest that buried my grandma had a stogie in his mouth after the memorial.
Since when is smoking a cigar sinful??

Was Jesus's drinking alcohol sinful (Matt. 11:9, Luke 7:34)??
 

BreadOfLife

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No, but being a dad is a close second to my call of God.
I had a natural desire from God to become a dad to kids.
Priests only wish they could, but their masters refuse to let them....unscripturally.
This “castration” of men is to keep nepotism in check.
Wrong.

A priest chooses to live a life of celibacy - as Paul did (1 Cor. 7:7).
The fact that you can't understand this is proof positive that you have an unhealthy obsession with sex.

You should pray about it . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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As an Ex catholic I can say it is not Calvinists who have been had,lol

Now can we go to scripture on any area? then we can make progress. I would like to help you.
Any time.
Your man-made Calvinist doctrines are easily-debunked in Scripture.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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Any time.
Your man-made Calvinist doctrines are easily-debunked in Scripture.
Let's try out your theory.
Show anywhere how any of the 5 points are not biblically accurate. I am willing to stand with CV confessional Christian's and answer your objections biblically
 

justbyfaith

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No - what YOU have done is reject the revealed truth of God that has been the constant living belief of His Church for 2000 years because it because YOU lacked the faith to believe it.

My belief does not depart from what the church has believed about the Trinity for the past 2,000 years. It does not contradict any of the creeds. But it does add understanding about the Oneness of the Lord in the context of His three-ness.

John is making the statement about sin - period.

No kidding...and the statement he is making about sin is that as an element it indwells all of us...not that it is inevitable but that we will continue to commit it in this life. Otherwise the command to repent is null and void...because no one can repent, since they must again sin at some point in the near future.

And in Rom. 7, Paul details the effects of this sin in his own - and ALL of our lives.
Here, he is talking about sin that dwells within him:
Rom. 7:13-14
Did the good, then, become death for me? Of course not! Sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin, worked death in me through the good, so that sin might become sinful beyond measure through the commandment.
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold into slavery to sin.


Now HERE’s the part where he admits to stumbling in sin – as we ALL do:
Rom. 7:15
WHAT I DO, I do not understand. For I do not do what I want, BUT I DO WHAT I HATE.

Romans 7:14 is the beginning of the passage. Paul identifies himself as carnal in order to define carnality. He sets forth his own life as carnal, in the rest of Romans 7:14-25, although he himself is not carnal...otherwise he could not be an author of holy scripture...2 Peter 1:21.

You are WRONG when you arrogantly claim that you do NOT sin because the Apostles themselves admit to stumbling.

I don't claim that I, personally, do not sin...my claim is that I don't sin at any given moment that I am abiding in Jesus Christ...1 John 3:6.

Furthermore – James, speaking to BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS says the following:
James 5:16
Therefore, CONFESS YOUR SINS to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.

Your arrogant claim is nothing short of counterfeit quasi-Christianity.

It actually says to confess your faults one to another...and this scripture may actually be a step that a man takes in order to become born again. Because James, and other books of holy scripture, apply to unbelievers as well as believers. They may be written to believers; but their application is to all; since the authors understand that there are unbelievers who will come underneath the teaching of what they would write.

We are forgiven ONLY when we repent. the Bible is FILLED with warnings to converted, born again Christians to NOT fall back into a life of willful sin or they may LOSE their security:
Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.


2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Rev. 3:5

He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

If anyone has a living and saving faith (a heart faith that is unto righteousness, Romans 10:10, as opposed to a nominal, lukewarm, or shallow faith, Luke 8:13), then they have everlasting life (John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30) because they have an everlasting faith (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5, 1 Peter 1:5).

The Pope is not "worshiped".

I should hope not! For if anyone did worship the Pope, they would be in everlasting condemnation according to Revelation 14:9-11.

Worship of ANYBODY or ANYTHING other than Almighty God is strictly forbidden by the 1st Commandment - as well as the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

However, the Pope is Christ's physical representative on the earth according to Catholic doctrine. Therefore, I wouldn't put it past the Catholic Church to at some point say that if you worship the Pope you are in effect worshiping Christ.

For they did the same with the Jesus cookie.
 
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justbyfaith

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And there you go again LYING, which proves my point that you are an anti-Catholic
I am ant-Catholicism. I have nothing against you personally over the fact that you are a Catholic.

(although your accusing me of being a liar is getting kind of old...and is a lie in itself, on your part).
 

BreadOfLife

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Let's try out your theory.
Show anywhere how any of the 5 points are not biblically accurate. I am willing to stand with CV confessional Christian's and answer your objections biblically
I already did in out initial run-in back in post #7 when I sank the 5th Point (P - Perseverance of the saints) in the Calvinist "T.U.L.I.P.".
This man-made tenet of Calvinism - like the others, doesn't jive when taken with the pother Scriptures in context. Context is important and NOT a friend of Calvinism.

Cherry-picking is never a good idea, as we see in Calvininsm - because you wind up twisting the Scriptures to your own destruction, as Peter warned (2 Pet. 5:16) . . .