Truly, Jesus said, This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He sent.
He is saying that if you are going to insist that you are going to be saved by works, then the only work that will save you is going to be a simple faith in Jesus Christ.
John 6:27-29 also proves that belief is a work God has given man to do:
1) Jesus clearly says to WORK for the food that endures unto everlasting life. No work = no everlasting life.
2) the people then ask Jesus what is this work is they are to do "What shall
we do, that
we might
work the works of God?"
3) Jesus did NOT tell then to do no works but actually gave them a work....."ye believe".
At least above you are now admitting that faith is a work.
justbyfaith said:
No verse says that faith is obedient action, either. In fact, Ephesians 2:8-9 contradicts such a notion.
Obedience is an action, it is doing what is commanded. No one was ever commanded to have faith only to be saved but men have been told to believe (a work as we just saw above) repent (something done) confess (something done) submit to baptism (something done) live faithfull (something done).
Romans 6:16----------------obedience>>>>>>>>>>>>>unto righteousness
Roman 10:10---------------believeth>>>>>>>>>>>>> unto righteousness
Just one way to be saved/made righteous so belief is an obedient work. Again, John 3:36 ASV contrasts "believeth" to "obeyeth not".
justbyfaith said:
Before God, he is. Before man, who cannot see an invisible faith (while the Lord can see the invisible), we must see works of faith in order to determine that a man has genuine faith.
Mark 2:5 Jesus saw their faith, He could see faith for faith was a work that was taking place before Him.
Jonah 3:10 God saw their works for their repentance was a work done before God.
Therefore faith is no mental activity, an attitude of the mind and nothing more.
justbyfaith said:
It doesn't. It refers to works, period.
You have not provided any proof from the context that Romans 4:5 excludes obedience. Again Abraham was a man who obeyed God, who
DID DO obedient works and was justified by those works. Yet he was not justified by flawless works the OT law required for
1) he sinned and did not keep God's law perfectly....he was ungodly (Romans 4:5)
and
2) he did not even live under the OT law but was justified in uncircumcision (Romans 4:10).
Hence Paul's point is that justification for Jew and Gentile comes not by works of the law but by an obedience faith. Again Paul makes that contrast in Romans 3:28. Again Romans 6:16-18 Paul puts obedience BEFORE justification therefore Romans 4:5 does not, cannot eliminate obedience else the Bible contradicts itself badly.
Acts 2:38 repent and be baptized (obedience) comes before salvation (remission of sins)
Mark 16:16 believe and be baptized (obedience) comes BEFORE salvation.
Romans 10:10 belief and confession (obedience) comes BEFORE salvation...
unto salvation. One does NOT believe and confess BECAUSE he already is saved.
justbyfaith said:
All I'm saying...that faith is an obedient attitude. I think that you are arguing just to argue; because I have come over to your side to a very great extent in order to find agreement; and yet you refuse to agree with the reality of the truth.
But the Bible does NOT say that faith is just a mental attitude and nothing more...
Hebrews 11:
By faith Abel obeyed in his offerings
By faith Noah obeyed, moved with fear in building the ark
By faith Abraham obeyed in moving from his house and land
By faith Abraham offered up Isaac.
The faith of these men would have been worthless and dead had they had faith only.
justbyfaith said:
No verse says that faith is obedient action. In fact, Ephesians 2:8-9 contradicts such a notion.
Again:
By faith Abel obeyed in his offerings
By faith Noah obeyed, moved with fear in building the ark
By faith Abraham obeyed in moving from his house and land
By faith Abraham offered up Isaac.
Clearly obedience is an action in making offerings, in building an ark, in moving.
justbyfaith said:
Is it not works to be obedient to the will of God?
I am contending faithfully here, that obedient action is the sure result of a living and saving faith if the person has time and opportunity to do the good works that result out of a living and saving faith. But a man is not saved through the obedient action, but by the faith that brings about the action.
If you are going to continue to argue otherwise, I think that you need to take some scissors and cut Ephesians 2:8-9 out of your Bible. Because this is what you have effectively done in your theology. But keep Revelation 22:19 in mind.
You have yet to show where God first saved one BEFORE that person was obedient to the will of God. No person was ever saved by God while that person continued in disobedience to God's will. God requires obedience first, then justification follows.
justbyfaith said:
Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about works period; not just works of merit.
WE have seen that faith/belief is a work so the "not of works" of verse 9 cannot annul the work of faith of verse 8. Nor can the "not of works" of verse 9 annul the good works Christians are required to do. No good works and the Christian will not be save, Matthew 25.
justbyfaith said:
If obedience is in any way required, then perfect obedience is required, and grace is not going to take you the rest of the way. But if you are saved by grace, then you are wholly saved by grace. See Romans 11:5-6 (kjv).
God does not require sinless perfection from man but an obedient faith...and an obedient faith includes repenting of sins which when the Christian repents, God will forgive and forget.
Man is saved by grace but not saved by grace only. Paul refutes salvation by grace only in Romans 6 by showing salvation takes both God's grace and man's obedience. Just because the Christian is saved by grace does not allow the Christian to disobey God and sin for the Christian is one who is dead to sin. We each are serving one of two master, we are serving either:
1) sin unto death or 2) obedience unto righteousness (Romans 6:16).
If the Christian is not obeying God by serving obedience unto righteousness then he is serving sin unto death and will be lost...if he does not repent and go back to obeying God in serving "obedience unto righteousness".
justbyfaith said:
There is no contradiction in my mind. Consider that works don't save; but that if someone has a living faith (which does save), that their faith is going to produce works given time and opportunity.
The Bible shows that works of the OT law do not save, that works of merit do not save, good works will not save the sinner but the Bible shows time and again that obedience to God's will does save.
All works are therefore not the same and no verse unconditionally eliminates all works. If Rom 4:5 or Eph 2:9 eliminate obedience then that eliminates one from serving "
obedience unto righteousness" and has all serving "
sin unto death". NO ONE who continues to serve sin unto death will be saved. (Romans 6:16)
justbyfaith said:
But you are trying to save yourself by doing God's righteousness.
The righteousness of God, here, is accounted to man through faith in Jesus Christ.
I have never said that I am saving myself
BY MYSELF. I am saving myself in the sense of doing what God has commanded. In Acts 2:38 God commanded men to repent and be baptized for remission of sins. therefore those who obey GOD'S RIGHTOEUSNESS in repenting and being baptized are in that sense saving themselves. Peter told those Jews to "save yourselves" (verse 40) and they would do so by doing GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS and not by doing their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS. Again Romans 10:3 the Jews were lost for going about doing THEIR OWN RIGHTOEUSESS instead of obeying GOD'S RIGHTOEUSNESS in believing, repenting, confessing and being baptized as God requires.
Again the faith only-ist will not see the difference between one doing his
OWN righteousness and one doing
GOD'S righteousness. One cannot save himself by doing his own righteousness but one can save himself by doing God's righteousness.