The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Kermos]

Well as Satan still is the god of this world (howbeit temporarily) and that the worlds system are under His control, yesthe world lies in the evil one just as it is written in Gods Word!

Yopu forget that though we live in this present evil world we are not of this world. so we are in it but not of it.

Since you answer "yes" to the question, then you cannot be a Christian because the Apostle John wrote in the same book "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:14); moreover, the person that has overcome the evil one is beyond the evil one and cannot simultaneously lie in the evil one.

Regarding your final paragraph, the affect of the question remains the same when arranged as "do you lie in the evil one since you are a person that resides somewhere in the whole world (1 John 5:19)".

 

[Kermos]

And who is the Church made up of? Sinners who have repented and turned to God through Jesus. And the invitation to do that applies to everyone without exception. But not all accept the invitation.

@Pearl, that is a lot of your writing without citing any Scripture.

The Word of God says there is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Jesus Christ died for only His chosen persons. Thus says the Word of God Himself - the One in loving control (John 3:16)!

 

[MatthewG]

So Jesus only died for certain people @Kermos? He did not pay for all the sin of the world? Was it not the 12 disciples who where chosen and also people from the 12 tribes that are dealt with in Revelation about the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel?

Was it in Jesus mind of having all people come to him to have freedom from bondage of sin and death and delivered from the dominion of darkness?

Is God calling and working for all people to come to the Lord now today? Or is God still picking and choosing only certain people after having done worked through the nation of Israel already?

 

[Pearl]

@Pearl, that is a lot of your writing without citing any Scripture.

Romans 6:10
The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

 

[Kermos]

Romans 6:10
The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

The "all" in Romans 6:10 is restricted to the persons of whom the Lord Jesus Christ says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Additionally, @Pearl, the letter of Romans is written to believers; therefore, the "all" in Romans 6:10 speaks to current believers and future believers only - not everybody everywhere in all time - but truly "all" here only to we persons that God blesses with the work of God that is believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

You are trying to make the Apostle Paul speak against Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ died for only His chosen persons. Thus says the Word of God Himself - the One in loving control (John 3:16)!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Since you answer "yes" to the question, then you cannot be a Christian because the Apostle John wrote in the same book "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:14); moreover, the person that has overcome the evil one is beyond the evil one and cannot simultaneously lie in the evil one.

Regarding your final paragraph, the affect of the question remains the same when arranged as "do you lie in the evil one since you are a person that resides somewhere in the whole world (1 John 5:19)".

Well I am glad I will not stand before your rickety throne. I have overcome the evil one because of the blood. But we still live in the world ruled by Satan so we lie in the lap of evil. that is why teh scriptures say though we live in this world, we are not to be part of the world. Stop nit picking.

 

[Kermos]

Well I am glad I will not stand before your rickety throne. I have overcome the evil one because of the blood. But we still live in the world ruled by Satan so we lie in the lap of evil. that is why teh scriptures say though we live in this world, we are not to be part of the world. Stop nit picking.

So, now you call quoting the Apostle John's writings "nit picking" - that is not good.

Look at John's preceding words to 1 John 5:19 about the born of God Christian "the evil one does not touch him" (1 John 5:18).

The "part of the whole world person" "lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19) means the evil one touches the person (1 John 5:18).

1 John 5:18 and 1 John 5:19 refer to diametric polar opposite states of being for persons.

Born of God Christians "have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), yet the "part of the whole world person" "lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19) has not overcome by being beyond the evil one. "Overcome" and "beyond" are synonyms.

The phrase "lies in" is an intimate affair which involves "touch" with an intimate nature, so the group of people that are a part of "the whole world" are intimate, even servile, with "the evil one", and "No one can serve two masters" (Matthew 6:24).

We born of God Christians are not part of "the whole world" in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

Anyone who claims to be part of "the whole world" in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19) is not a born of God Christian by their own admission.

No Christian lies in the evil one; therefore, "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19does not include Christians.

Since "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 does not mean everyone everywhere in all time, then other occurrences of the word "world" in the New Testament can be constrained by context.

"The whole world" in 1 John 2:2 does not mean everyone everywhere in all time similar to the fact that the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 does not mean everyone everywhere in all time.

The Apostle John wrote "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2), and this "the whole world" mentioned by John refers only to the chosen persons of God (John 15:16, John 15:19) who are yet to be imparted the work of God which is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

In the preceding verse John wrote "I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 John 2:1).

The free-willian philosophy that the phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 results in propitiation for everyone everywhere in all time culminates in universalism because the sins of unbelievers would be covered by Jesus Christ the Advocate at the unbelievers death because in the preceding verse John wrote "if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father" (1 John 2:1) - the word "anyone" is the pivotal point resulting in universalism for free-willian philosophy because "anyone" includes "the whole world".

Universalism is deception because the Word of God says "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 7:21) thus Jesus indicates that some people do not enter heaven which means those people go to hell (Matthew 25:41).

The Advocate succeeds every single time that He advocates for the forgiveness of a person's sins with the Father.

Free-willian philosophers think that the Advocate fails in some of His advocacies with the Father because there are person's sins which are not forgiven by God among the "anyone" in "if anyone sins", so free-willian philosophers think that Christ the Advocate is faulty, error-prone, false, and untrue.

John's letter is to Christian believers; therefore, John's letter is constrained by the context of persons believing in Christ. In 1 John 2:2, the verse's first third establishes that Christ is the propitiation, the verse's second third establishes for the sins of current believers, and the verse's third third establishes for the sins of future believers. There is no extant beyond Christian believers in 1 John 2:2.

This is crucial Apostolic doctrine because the Apostle John is among the writers of these quoted passages.

 

[Pearl]

The "all" in Romans 6:10 is restricted to the persons of whom the Lord Jesus Christ says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Additionally, @Pearl, the letter of Romans is written to believers; therefore, the "all" in Romans 6:10 speaks to current believers and future believers only - not everybody everywhere in all time - but truly "all" here only to we persons that God blesses with the work of God that is believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

You are trying to make the Apostle Paul speak against Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ died for only His chosen persons. Thus says the Word of God Himself - the One in loving control (John 3:16)!

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. John 3:16-20

 

[brightfame52]

He bare the sins of many, not all without exception!

Mans religion tells us that Christ died for the sins of everyone without exception, but that's not true due to the fact everyone without exception doesn't believe in Jesus Christ.

Here's a scripture that says that Christ bare the sins of many Heb9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.1139

Now the word many means:

many, much, large

The English word definition:

constituting or forming a large number; numerous:
many people.

the many,the greater part of humankind.

Notice,not all of mankind without exception, but a numerous or large number.

That is the key to understanding. The many that Christ died for is a large numerous number out of mankind. Like for instance Rev 7:9-10

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

So when we see scriptures that states He died for all, or everyone, it simply means that He died for all or everyone of the numerous many ! Not all without exception, the word many disqualified that interpretation!

 

[brightfame52]

And who is the Church made up of? Sinners who have repented and turned to God through Jesus. And the invitation to do that applies to everyone without exception. But not all accept the invitation.

Error here. Scripture says He specifically died for the church, all are not part of that Church.

 

[Kermos]

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. John 3:16-20

The first word of John 3:16, "for", is a conjunction, which means that the word "for" linguistically tightly binds John 3:14-15 with John 3:16. The following is a Scriptural examination about this.

The Word "World" in John 3:16 (John 3:14-16)

The first order is to look at Lord Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John:

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:14-16).

The second order is to examine the history of "the serpent in the wilderness" that Jesus mentions (see John 3:14):

Then YHWH said to Moses, "Make a fiery [serpent], and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived. (Numbers 21:8-9)

The third order is to listen to the Master.

Jesus sets "the serpent in the wilderness" "lifted up" in relation to "the Son of Man" "lifted up" (all in John 3:14).

Jesus then states "so that every believing will in" Jesus "have eternal life" (John 3:15), but He intensifies this statement by repeating it right away.

Jesus continues with "for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son" (John 3:16), and here is where Jesus mentions "world".

Jesus follows up with intensifying his prior declaration (John 3:15) with "that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

The fourth order is to acknowledge the Master's words.

Jesus mentioned "the serpent in the wilderness", so by this He brings up the account of the bronze serpent (John 3:16includes Numbers 21:8-9).

The relation that Jesus set between the bronze serpent lifted up and Himself lifted up bears significance upon the population of persons that Jesus establishes for the word "world" in John 3:16.

For the next four paragraphs, we see the Word of God speaking to Moses (Numbers 21:8) in relation to the Word of God speaking to Nicodemus (John 3:16).

Notice how "everyone who is bitten" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "world" (John 3:16).

Notice how "when he" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "that every" (John 3:16, note that the Greek word pas [Strongs 3956] translates accurately as "every" not so much as the unfettered promiscuous "whosoever" [KJV] or "whoever" [NASB]).

Notice how "look" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "believing" (John 3:16).

Notice how "live" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "eternal life" (John 3:16).

continued to post #2572

 

[Kermos]

continued from post #2571

God told Moses that a person bitten by one of the serpents "will live" when the person looks at "the serpent in the wilderness".

Based on God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" (Numbers 21:8) and the results of the bronze serpent that Moses set on the standard (Numbers 21:9), the population of persons that certainly were affected by God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" in order to live were ONLY each bitten person that looked at "the serpent in the wilderness".

In other words, the population of persons associated with living by looking at "the serpent in the wilderness" was restricted to ONLY the bitten persons that looked at the bronze serpent. For simplicity, I'll call this the "population of bitten look livers".

Furthermore, there is a different population of persons. This population of persons are not in the "population of bitten look livers". For example, this population of persons could include bitten persons that DID NOT LOOK AT "the serpent in the wilderness". This population of persons I'll call the "population of non-bitten-look-livers".

Therefore, there are separate populations of persons identified in Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:14-16). There was the "population of bitten look livers"; meanwhile, there was the "population of non-bitten-look-livers"

Jesus sets the relation between differing populations of persons by way of Him including the "population of bitten look livers" (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9) and the population of persons represented by the word "world" who believe in Jesus (John 3:16).

God requires for persons to believe in Jesus in order to be granted eternal life by God (John 3:15, John 3:16).

So, it follows, when Lord Jesus says "God so loved the world" (John 3:16), then specifically He is saying God loves the ones who will believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

This relation set by Jesus establishes that the word "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:14-16 includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus.

The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the "world" as the population of God's chosen persons ONLY.

Before and after saying "world", Jesus establishes the requirement of believing in Jesus in order for persons to be in the population of persons granted eternal life by God.

Jesus, the Word of God, says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Jesus defines righteous faith/belief such that a person believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent is the work of God (John 6:29).

Jesus attributes a complete package, a whole gift, a finished work which He refers to as "that you believe in Him whom He has sent".

God deposits "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" in a person as a complete, sufficiently functioning work by God unto salvation of the person with nothing additional by the person as necessary, no choice by the person, no work of a decision by the person, no acceptance by the person, nothing by the person to achieve salvation.

So, "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" is a complete thing with nothing more to add by the person to the righteous faith/belief deposited by God unto being saved from the wrath of God.

Jesus clearly explains that the "believe in Him whom He has sent" is locked inside of the "you" specified by Jesus (John 6:29).

This "locking" is "the work of God" for God secures all of God's own persons unto eternal life (John 10:27-29).

The whole pagkage is done, finished, and complete.

There is nothing more "to be done" by the "you" with the finished package in order to obtain the gift of eternal life in God.

Thus, the only persons with righteous faith/belief implanted by God for a person's salvation are in the population of persons with eternal life in God (John 6:29, John 3:16).

The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the "world" as the population of God's chosen persons ONLY.

When self-will persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) define the "world" in John 3:16 as everyone everywhere without exception, then such persons assert that the Truth (Jesus - John 14:6) tells a lie. The deception results because such persons have Jesus losing persons eternally in spite of Him saying "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28).

The "no one" in "no one will snatch them out of My hand" means no one, not the devil, not the person himself or herself, not another person. The "no one" means absolutely NO ONE.

If the word "world" in John 3:16 includes the population of persons who die while in disbelief/unfaith, then God lost some persons to eternal punishment instead of eternal life.

Since believing in the Son of God whom God the Father has sent is the work of God (John 6:29) and no one will snatch a God rooted believer out of Jesus' hand (John 10:28), then the population of persons represented by the word "world" by Jesus as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:16) must of necessity be only persons who currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus unto eternal life in God.

The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the "world" as the population of believers, God's chosen persons, existing or yet to be ONLY.

The word "world" in John 3:16 is the population of persons currently are or in the future to be imparted the work of God unto salvation that is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

 

[Wrangler]

So Jesus only died for certain people @Kermos? He did not pay for all the sin of the world?

Only if universalism is correct doctrine.

 

[MatthewG]

What do the scriptures say. It’s so important to read the Bible. Not only just the red letters but trying take in the whole of scripture. That’s my encouragement… always question and always seek for God and pray reading scriptures and you might find something in that Bible you never thought of before.

 

[n2thelight]

I never tell anyone Christ died for their sins, neither did the Apostles. I simply tell people who it is Christ died for, His Sheep, and what His death accomplished for them. You should only tell people Christ died for the sins of His People Matt 1:21

And who may I ask are Christ people

 

[Pearl]

Error here. Scripture says He specifically died for the church, all are not part of that Church.

The church wasn't in exsistence before Jesus died. The Church is all those who have come to him since. And those are the ones it means. Anyone who is born of the Spirit is Church.

 

[Kermos]

And who may I ask are Christ people

Lord Jesus dies for His friends for the Word of God says "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13).

Lord Jesus exclusively chooses His friends unto whom He imparts the knowledge of God - not His friends choosing Him - but truly He chooses His friends for the Word of God says "I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:15-16).

The Word of God reveals that every occurrence of scripture like "Christ died for all" and "Christ saves the world" is constrained and restricted to Christ's chosen friends.

 

[Kermos]

The church wasn't in exsistence before Jesus died. The Church is all those who have come to him since. And those are the ones it means. Anyone who is born of the Spirit is Church.

Lord Jesus dies for His friends for the Word of God says "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13).

Lord Jesus exclusively chooses His friends unto whom He imparts the knowledge of God - not His friends choosing Him - but truly He chooses His friends for the Word of God says "I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:15-16).

God causes a sinner to be born again of the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-8) thus such a person is Christ's chosen friend who comes to Lord Jesus and that very coming to Lord Jesus is being manifested as wrought in God (John 3:21) - coming to Christ is not a work of man - truly coming to Christ is a work of God in man per the Word of God.

The Word of God reveals that every occurrence of scripture like "Christ died for all" and "Christ saves the world" is constrained and restricted to Christ's chosen friends.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

"The whole world" in 1 John 2:2 does not mean everyone everywhere in all time similar to the fact that the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 does not mean everyone everywhere in all time.

So to you the whole world does not mean the whole world then. Okay. I suppose "NO" doesn't always mean no to you as well?

funny but I looked up "whole world in the Greek. Boy was I surprised! Know why? Because it means the whole world!

I looked up Lie. It is a geographical and not intimate or personal time.

Now god is a whole lot smarter than the "whole world" combined. He also created the languages. He chose certain words here to mean that we are of God and every one physically lis in the wicked one, which explicitly speaks of where we are physically located! If God wanted to say what you have written, He would have done so and doesn't need your superior knowledge to correct His inspiration. But hey that is my opinion of God!

 

[brightfame52]

Rom 8:32

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Now what about this scripture? Who are the all Christ was delivered up for? Was it all mankind? No it is not! It's for all the Church, the Elect Vs33;It means all the Church, Paul was addressing the Church at Rome, the beloved of God, called to be Saints, of whom He had heard of their Faith Rom1:6-8

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.