The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Brakelite]

The word fruit in Jn 12:24

Jesus stated [speaking of His death and being Glorified thereby] that if a corn of wheat [Himself] falls to the ground [His crucifixion and death] and dies, It [Himself, the corn of wheat] bringeth forth
much fruit..

That is He is the effective cause via His death of bring forth or producing fruit ..

The greek word for fruit is:

karpos and means:

the fruit of one's loins, i.e. his progeny, his posterity

He brings forth much posterity, his progeny, or His seed..

For this is spoken of in Isa 53 as a result of His sufferings for those He bare their iniquities notice:

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

That word seed is the hebrew zera` which means:

offspring, descendants, posterity, children

And this seed or posterity shall serve Him...as per Ps 22:30

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

Now look at vs 26 of John 12 right after Jesus speaks about bringing forth fruit in vs 24 :

26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

You see, Jesus through His vicarious death will produce a seed that shall serve Him.

This seed will be of all races of people, that is He will draw all races to Him, to serve Him.

And we know this is not the case for all men without exception, so therefore Christ death could not have been for all men without exception, unless it failed to bear fruit.

Is some cases it did fail to bear fruit.
KJV Matthew 13:18-23
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

 

[brightfame52]

'many' is a reference to all...the context declares it.

Sure all of the many. Many means its not all without exception but a large amount.

 

[brightfame52]

Is some cases it did fail to bear fruit.
KJV Matthew 13:18-23
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

I dont think you understand the point.

 

[Brakelite]

I dont think you understand the point.

seems contagious.

Sure all of the many. Many means its not all without exception but a large amount.

So only many, but not all, were made sinners through Adam?

 

[brightfame52]

So only many, but not all, were made sinners through Adam?

Correct ! Again all of the many. In Rom 5 its only the elect being considered, their fall in Adam and their saving in Christ. Has nothing to do with the reprobate non elect

 

[brightfame52]

Scriptures that show the efficaciousness of the death of Christ !
Jn 12 :32
32And I, if I be lifted up [Speaking of His death] from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
The Death of Christ will draw all unto Him, the word men is not in the original, and so does not mean all men as individuals without exception, but all that the Father giveth Him as per
Jn 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
All races of men will believe in Him because of His being Lifted up.
Now Jesus is saying all for whom He is lifted up for and behalf of, they will come to believe in Him.
The lifting up effects the believing in Him. Lets look at Jn 3:14-15
14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
The lifting up of the serpent was for them God had determined that would not die, but should live if and when they were bitten.
Here is the background story Numbers 21:5-9
5And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
6And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
7Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
8And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
You see, God had already destroyed those whom He did not want to Live earlier vs
6And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Those whom He determined to live, He caused them to have the fear of death ! They would be bitten and look to the serpent to live. But they had to first be spared of death themselves, of which God did..

 

[Daniel Veler]

Let me explain it this way. God has a divine plan to save the lost. He sent his Son into the world to be the sacrifice for sin. The Father made Christ the door to salvation. The Father has said whosever puts their trust in Christ shall be saved. It is not limited. Under his Grace it’s free to all.

 

[JunChosen]

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

Not only because it is a Myth, but BECAUSE salvation is NEVER understood by many!

I don't believe in limited atonement, the scripture makes it clear that the call is for "whosoever will."

But "whosoever will" seeing the Bible insists "there is none righteous no, not one; there is none that seeks after God?" Romans Chapter 3.

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jesus bore away in His body the sin of the world.

So yes, without exception.

No! Jesus did not redeem the sin of the world. Imagine if He did no one will be put in hell; but rather John is saying that in all of the world, Jesus, as the Lamb of God, is the only Savior and none other!

It is simply false teaching to teach that "all" doesn't mean all.

How then can you reconcile the Scripture that stipulates, "thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save HIS people from their sin?" Where is the word "all?"

To God Be The Glory

 

[Daniel Veler]

Do you understand sin? Would be my next question?

 

[justbyfaith]

How then can you reconcile the Scripture that stipulates, "thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save HIS people from their sin?" Where is the word "all?"

I'm not sure how your question applies to my statement.

 

[Charlie24]

But "whosoever will" seeing the Bible insists "there is none righteous no, not one; there is none that seeks after God?" Romans Chapter 3.

Yes, man is totally depraved. But when he or she hears the truth of the Gospel, then they are faced with a decision to accept or reject that truth!

The hearing of the Gospel demands a response, it will be yea or nay, of that persons own free will!

 

[Tong2020]

Why u think ?

If you are just referring to Christ’s death with regards salvation unto eternal life, then yes, Christ died not for all men, but only for His people, His church, His sheep.

Tong
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[Tong2020]

Yes, man is totally depraved. But when he or she hears the truth of the Gospel, then they are faced with a decision to accept or reject that truth!

The hearing of the Gospel demands a response, it will be yea or nay, of that persons own free will!

How can he hear if he is in a state of death, as dead to God and to the things of the spirit of God? He can’t, unless God first quickens him and made alive.

Observe, the gospel is preached, yet there are some who believes and some don’t. Why is that?

Tong
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[Charlie24]

How can he hear if he is in a state of death, as dead to God and to the things of the spirit of God? He can’t, unless God first quickens him and made alive.

Observe, the gospel is preached, yet there are some who believes and some don’t. Why is that?

Tong
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Pretty obvious don't you think?

They don't want to give up the things of the world to follow Christ!

 

[Daniel Veler]

If you are just referring to Christ’s death with regards salvation unto eternal life, then yes, Christ died not for all men, but only for His people, His church, His sheep.

Tong
R2822

I also agree that Christ is the cornerstone. It is those in Christ that are saved. But when God said whosoever will applied to the lost, if you have trust in your heart for Christ you become part of his church.

 

[Daniel Veler]

How can he hear if he is in a state of death, as dead to God and to the things of the spirit of God? He can’t, unless God first quickens him and made alive.

Observe, the gospel is preached, yet there are some who believes and some don’t. Why is that?

Tong
R2823

Tong Christ told the parable of the sower. This parable is also explained by Christ himself. You’ll see 3/4 of the hearers are not saved. How do we know this is because Christ tells us only those who obey and bring forth fruit as his brethren. Pray that the lord will give you your answer you seek.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
How can he hear if he is in a state of death, as dead to God and to the things of the spirit of God? He can’t, unless God first quickens him and made alive.

Observe, the gospel is preached, yet there are some who believes and some don’t. Why is that?

Pretty obvious don't you think?

They don't want to give up the things of the world to follow Christ!

Let me share to you at least two reasons why they don’t believe, according to Jesus himself, not according to me nor any man else.

John 8: 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

Tong
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[Daniel Veler]

I also agree that Christ is the cornerstone. It is those in Christ that are saved. But when God said whosoever will applied to the lost, if you have trust in your heart for Christ you become part of his church.

Tong one last thing many confuse the term trust. The word faith was used to mean trust. We are taught to trust people at an early stage in life. This is not the trust/faith I’m talking about. The trust I’m talking about is the trust placed in your heart by God through the gift of the Holy Spirit. Just like God’s love is placed within your heart. People think if they say they believe and not realizing that their belief is an an acknowledgement only has missed the mark. If you ask God to understand eternal life and what it is then you’ll see you are in Christ.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
If you are just referring to Christ’s death with regards salvation unto eternal life, then yes, Christ died not for all men, but only for His people, His church, His sheep.

I also agree that Christ is the cornerstone. It is those in Christ that are saved. But when God said whosoever will applied to the lost, if you have trust in your heart for Christ you become part of his church.

I believe that Christ died only for His sheep, His church for their salvation unto eternal life, and not for all men, at least in my reading of scriptures.

Do you think Jesus suffered for the sins even of those who are not His sheep? If that is the case, then it is either much of His previous blood and life was wasted, or all then would be saved since they too would not have any sin to suffer the penalty of since Jesus already suffered for their sins.

<<<But when God said whosoever will...>>€

If you are referring to John 3:16, I see that passage as a statement of truth concerning what God had done for the sheep, rather than a condition that if one does it, he will be saved.

And many take “believe” in Jesus Christ as the condition that if met, he will be saved. Perhaps. But not if one is aware of what Jesus said concerning that. We know that all men will not believe. Do you know what Jesus said is the reason why they don’t believe? Not for so many reasons, but that they don’t believe BECAUSE they are not of His sheep. In another way He said that truth saying that they don’t believe BECAUSE they are not of God.

Tong
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[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
How can he hear if he is in a state of death, as dead to God and to the things of the spirit of God? He can’t, unless God first quickens him and made alive.

Observe, the gospel is preached, yet there are some who believes and some don’t. Why is that?

Tong Christ told the parable of the sower. This parable is also explained by Christ himself. You’ll see 3/4 of the hearers are not saved. How do we know this is because Christ tells us only those who obey and bring forth fruit as his brethren. Pray that the lord will give you your answer you seek.

First, I have to say, that knowing and being aware as to why Jesus spoke in parables only points us to the truth that the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven was not for all men.

In my reading of the said parable, it isn’t about really the matter of one getting save or not, but about bearing fruit in the kingdom of heaven.

And bearing fruit does not get anybody saved. It is post salvation.

Speaking of parables, perhaps this will shed some additional light. Read the parable of the wheat and the tares and the explanation of Jesus (Mt.13).

Tong
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