Please give up the God 'n me routine....you and God against everybody else...nobody doing it right but you....the high and holy one of the internet.
The Narrow Way
- Thread starter Episkopos
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Please give up the God 'n me routine....you and God against everybody else...nobody doing it right but you....the high and holy one of the internet.
LOL The narrow way is simple indeed! Holding on tightly to what you have only makes it hurt more to give it up.
PS You can't take anything with you when you die. And guess what you will be hoping to attain...the heavenly community of new Jerusalem. Will you ridicule that life then????
Hi Episkopos,
I have been musing on how to reply to your post to me, which seems yet again to avoid the challenges I put to you, and instead to veer off into your projecting all your complaints about the church today, onto forum members.
This leads me to ask where in the Bible you find support for your first statement?
In particular, please, how do you define 'witness', in the way you have used it? What does it look like?
Many thanks,
I have been musing on how to reply to your post to me, which seems yet again to avoid the challenges I put to you, and instead to veer off into your projecting all your complaints about the church today, onto forum members.
This leads me to ask where in the Bible you find support for your first statement?
In particular, please, how do you define 'witness', in the way you have used it? What does it look like?
Many thanks,
Hi D
The community of the saints is the city on a hill that Jesus spoke of
Mat_5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Firstly...the "YE" is plural just like the reference to a city. In fact, and this will surely not be understood for it's simplicity...The community of the saints in a given city is like a city within a city...AND a reference witness to the new Jerusalem on earth. See how the brethren love one another, See how the life from heaven is made manifest in the lives of the saints.
Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Here is the difference between believers and disciples. Disciples are learning to bear witness to the truth with their very lives...together! The new commandment changes everything. There is a complete surrender to Christ so that it is no longer we who are living but Christ. When 2 or more of THESE type of people (disciples) are together...Jesus is ACTUALLY living in their midst.
It is a wonder to me why people choose to not live in the constant presence of God so that the world testifies that God is among you. Do it for others and for the kingdom. Do it for your own families...but be a light in this world. IMO it is only hostility to the cost of the life of God or plain ignorance of the truth that keeps the church from being as victorious (and more so as we see the day approaching) as the early church.
We become witnesses by experiencing Christ BOTH in our personal lives AND in the corporate manifesting of Him by being gathered together in His name. We need say nothing...people will perceive the presence of Christ in our midst.
The renewing of the mind entails a transformation from "me and mine" to "we and ours". We go from seeing ourselves as individuals to seeing our place in the greater body...and identifying ourselves in Christ....literally in His body. WE have the mind of Christ. It is a plural mind.
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Again this is plural..WE are to shine OUR light so that others may see. This is the community of the Spirit.
How do you know what i have or how tightly i am holding on to it....in your haste to elevate yourself you assume much...i don't know what your level of education is or perhaps you are caught up in the deceptions of cyberspace but either way you assume much.
Paul says, It is not "we" but "I" who is no longer living. The reason it is not "WE" is because we cannot presumptously speak for others. Christ never obliterates our individuality in Him. No one else can be responsible for our abiding in the Lord except ourselves. No one can yield for me, no one can receive from the Lord for me (Note the 10 virgins). Only I can receive the badly needed "oil" from the Lord and only I can receive instructions from the Lord personally for my walk with Him. I cannot rely on others to tell me the what, when, or the how of which only the Lord can tell me. Yes, I can ask the brethren for counsel and prayer, but I cannot ask them to lead my children or be the co-heir with my wife that I am suppose to be. If we set up ourselves too strongly in other's lives we can become a hindrance to them knowing the Lord's voice and thus we become an idol in their heart and they follow us instead of the Lord. They then have no confidence at all to hear God's voice because they are too dependent on us. Only I can be the head of my family. That position is not given to any other man and thus I must hear from the Lord individually regarding how He wants me to take care of the family He has entrusted to me. It is my responsibility to seek God and receive from Him the things I need to function as a integral member in my own family and the Body of Christ.
There is no "we" in this statement. Salvation is individual and when we stand before Christ there will not be any standing with us. We are judged on an individual basis.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
That being said, it does not negate the great work of God in His Body on the earth. It only strengthens the work of God when each member of His Body is strong in Him and not dependent in an unhealthy way on men. God does not devalue any member of His Body for the benefit of all.
Amen to “personal lives”.
I suppose you could make a case for the “we and ours” (Acts 2:45) but I prefer that to be “His and Him”. I think our focus should always be on Christ where all that we are and all that we have belong to Him to move us to contribute to others as the Lord desires and He leads us to. If the renewing of our mind becomes “He and His”, one is less likely to be caught in the various snares of the enemy such as exclusivity of groups or bondage to men.
Whether we are one or many, our light should shine since our light is dependent on the Lord and our abiding in Him.
With the proliferation of cults today, those in the Body of Christ should keep certain things in mind.
In any Body (group of Believers), the individual identity of the Believer is not to become “blurred” to the point that practical considerations of their life and the lives of their family are excluded from group decisions.
Criticism or questions should not be characterized as persecution and in fact an environment of trust and open communication should be cultivated by the elders.
It would be a dangerous sign if an individual came to the place where they were unable to think independently or analyze situations without dependence on one of the group’s “leaders”.
I don’t consider it a good sign if one’s family and friends are increasingly isolated from them because of “group” pressure.
An elder after God’s heart will answer your questions without becoming judgmental or punitive and will gladly encourage accountability and oversight of himself.
A spiritual shepherd will encourage family communication and interaction outside of their “group” (within the community or other communities) and existing friendships and not feel threatened.
Reasonable boundaries and limitations should be recognized when dealing with others.
Critical thinking and individual autonomy should always be encouraged.
Another red flag for me would be if the shepherds/elders did not admit failings and mistakes and accept constructive criticism and advice. This goes for other members of the Body, too.
Shepherds/elders should not be the only source of knowledge and learning apart from everyone else, rather dialogue and the free exchange of ideas should be encouraged.
And above all else, Jesus Christ should have the final word in any individual’s life and what they think the Lord is saying to them for themselves or their family, should be honored. The privilege of following Christ with all their heart should be safeguarded for once this no longer exists in the group/body, Godly fruit will cease and all manner of problems will manifest.
Axehead
OK, I haven’t read all the posts but I don’t believe in picking one thing out of scripture and holding it up as the only way.
Just because some of the church initially lived a communal life doesn’t mean to say we have emulate that in our day and age.
A few points:
Paul never mentioned a communal life. And there is no mention of communal living after Acts
The result of communal living and selling everything was that the churches outside Jerusalem had to raise money to help those in Jerusalem who were living in poverty because thet had no means left of earning a living,
If you really want to take the way Jesus lived as your standard then wander round Israel preaching and living off women who provide for you out of their own resources (Lk 8:1-3).
Just because some of the church initially lived a communal life doesn’t mean to say we have emulate that in our day and age.
A few points:
Paul never mentioned a communal life. And there is no mention of communal living after Acts
The result of communal living and selling everything was that the churches outside Jerusalem had to raise money to help those in Jerusalem who were living in poverty because thet had no means left of earning a living,
If you really want to take the way Jesus lived as your standard then wander round Israel preaching and living off women who provide for you out of their own resources (Lk 8:1-3).
Community in the Spirit is foremost an attitude of living prophetically as a holy sacrifice for others to observe. If someone thinks they can do that on their own then let them do so...there are a few champions of the faith that have impacted the world. It is rather difficult to get people out of the spectator seat and into the arena themselves...our society is very voyeur in nature. A few perform...and the rest watch. The NT church is not like this. ALL are called to participate to be the light of the world together.
You need not be so defensive about yourself. We are talking about what is the NT experience we are being called into.
Are you trying to point out a bent in my perspective...or are you showing me yours? O course there is a personal side to the way of God in us. I'm trying to move forward FROM THERE. Arguing verses that have the singular in them does not take away from the plurality of the oneness in the body. You seem to dislike it when others only use part of the bible to make a stance.
Axe...do you think that community (even in the Spirit) is a cult activity? That is really the issue here.
Of course it is Him and His...but this is BOTH what we are as individuals and who we are become together in Christ. It is the setting of one against the other that is cult-like.
Perfect love casts out all fear. I see so many that are affected by past experience. Of course lawlessness abounds...but where is the love?
I see no biblical texts where the individual is "blurred".
What does this have to do with the discussion. Why all the fear? Because the way is narrow...many people will get their hackles and fears up. It is more mature to not fear and look to God. After all we are supposed to be following the biblical testimony....not coming up with excuses why it cannot be repeated.
If you were to try to catagorize all the failures of an individual pursuit of a full sanctification in Christ , which of course cannot be done because it is hidden...and compare that to the historical communities of faith...which ARE very visible...you could only judge by what history has recorded...which is not as accurate as the biblical account in any regard. So we are left with conjecture with every man being either guided by his fears or his faith.
The very fact that the private attempt is not so visible shows the deficiency of it. There are to many Rambos...too may denominations and opinions.
We are called to show forth our good works...as a body. A city!!!!
The early church sought to live what the bride of Christ will be living in the future age. So the community of the saints is not passé but actually prophetic!!!!
We show where our heart is by where we put our treasure. Are we trying to adapt the bible to our current lifestyle or are we trying to live as an expression of the body of Christ? What will eternity look like if not the community of the Spirit. Are we in for an eternity of religious services? We should rather turn down the noises and fears in our heads and look with simplicity at what the biblical testimony is pointing to. Was Paul a hermit? Did he travel alone? The early church communities were very tightly knit indeed. They not only shared with each other..they ALSO took up offerings for other church communities in other cities.
No one said the narrow way was easy...one must confront their fears and turn to love.
I am not being defensive,i work for a living and i get tired of excuses religous and otherwise that i should not be,i am not a burden to others and help when i can...but barely get by some times myself....God gives skills and abilities to use to serve others and provide for ourselves...God did not give a man the skills of a surgeon,engineer or Scientist just so he could grub around in the dirt like a Ground Hog
I really don't understand where this is coming from. Are you against full time ministry? Is that your beef? That is not what this thread is about. It is about sharing a common life where all are pulling together in the same direction. It is the laying down of our lives for the brethren whom we do see...not just the Lord whom we do not see. We show our love for God by the love we have for His children. You really should read 1 John on the matter.
Life reaches out to life. To be alive means to seek a connection with others who are alive.
Too many modern believers are still OF this world so they cannot understand why one who is alive in the Spirit loves others who are likewise alive in the Spirit so much. We see very few looking beyond the confines of this life. But Jesus came to set us free from all confinements. We are not seeking a greater personal freedom but we seek to become bond slaves of Christ to be used for His purpose. He brings us together to learn how to love. The same heart that cries out ABBA Father also loves the brethren enough to be joined with them as a body!!!
I fail to see how ground hogs bring forth the kingdom witness to the earth.
I have never said that,your position if i understand it is that only full time ministry qualifies one as a christian as well as living in a commune...if you have a job,a place to live and reserve some things as your own personal business or claim any God given identity or unique individuality apart from the group then you are not a christian.I am owned by the lord but not by you or any other person....they call that slavery.
A person is free to choose the level of commitment he has for the Lord. I am just relating what the bible says about being a disciple of Christ. The cost of discipleship is not optional. It means forsaking all. A believer is someone who holds certain views about God and agrees with the idea of a God controlled life. But until one actually puts that belief into practice then that person is not a disciple. We are, after all to be doers and not just hearers of Jesus' words.
You haven't been listening to what I'm saying rather you are reacting to your fears on the points you raised up. I never said that all are involved in full time ministry...just that we share in all things. Most will work in traditional jobs...and some will be supported to serve God full time. The important thing is we share in all things. That is on a spiritual level as well as a temporal possession level. If one person mourns then we all mourn...if one person rejoices then we all rejoice. If one person receives a spiritual gift then that is for all. If one person is blessed financially then that is for the common cause as well. We don't judge financial gifts as higher than spiritual gifts as the world does.
Read the bible and you will see that I am speaking of the truth in the matter. I challenge you to do that.
Hi Episkopos,
Are you in agreement with Peter, or disagreement with Peter, when he said to Ananias,
'Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power?.........' (Acts 5:4)
From what you said above, it's unclear to me whether you allow an individual, a couple, a family, to seek the Lord as to how much to give.
That is, you allow them and you don't, deep down in your heart, accuse them of not having given 'all'?
Are you in agreement with Peter, or disagreement with Peter, when he said to Ananias,
'Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power?.........' (Acts 5:4)
From what you said above, it's unclear to me whether you allow an individual, a couple, a family, to seek the Lord as to how much to give.
That is, you allow them and you don't, deep down in your heart, accuse them of not having given 'all'?
It is God who judges. Notice it was not Peter that condemned them but God Himself.
There are billions of believers in Jesus...but few disciples. I am not advocating for one moment that people should not believe in Jesus. I am calling believers to follow Christ. We all have the freedom to do as we wish. God is angry with those who seek to diminish the calling by NOT giving all yet claiming to be a disciple. The above verse should serve as a warning to what Christianity has become.
Most in our day have forsaken the gathering of the saints in favour of an interior faith that is lived out according to the society that one finds himself in. But this is not the way in Christ. To be sure we must first cleanse the inside of the cup so as to receive His holiness...but then we must gather together as His body to bear witness of the truth with our lives and ALL we are and have. The call of Christ on our lives is total. Cultural Christianity is lukewarm...it doesn't bother the Adversary or the principalities one bit.
The first commandment is to love God with ALL we are and have...nothing being held back!!!! Why go halfway then try justifying ourselves. Our lives should inspire others to claim we are saints rather than claiming this distinction for ourselves.
We are warned in the bible of those who would forsake the gathering in community,,,and that we should warn others more and more as we see the day approaching. (Heb. 10:25)
Do a study on G1997 episunago without prejudice (if that is possible) and God may yet open your eyes to the truth about this.
Peace in Christ,
Well sure,i never met anyone yet who didn't claim to do that....everybody is just saying what the bible says..perhaps if you included some details in your position it would help
Is it wrong to own or rent a house ?
Is it wrong to earn a paycheck and deposit it in the bank yourself to meet the needs of your family instead of first handing it over to the leader or "Epskopos" of your group so that they may let you keep only what you need for minimul survival ?
is it wrong to have a Car ? or any posession for your own use?
Is it wrong to have any details of your life not be made known to the group ?
Are decisions regarding your family yours and your families to make or are they to be submitted to the group or leader for approval ?
I sit wrong to make any decision apart from the group or leader ? are we ever to pray to God directly....trusting only in the group ?
Is God the God of your life or is God the group and therefore the group is God of your life?
Since groups consist of people who need a leader and leaders being people are imperfect should leaders have absolute authority over the group ?
These questions should be easy to answer in order to make plain what your position is.....you say"give all" which would leave one poor and destitute,except of course the one who gets the money....they do ok....we are told to forsake all when there is a choice to be made....its about priority....priorities do not eliminate each other they simply get in line.
Hey fellas,
Excuse me for interjecting and please don't let it stop you from answering Strat, Episkopos.
Paul recognized the church in the proper context when he had something to address to them (1Co_1:2 Unto the church of God... ) but he also recognized "households".
Rom 16:10 Salute Apelles approved in Christ. Salute them which are of Aristobulus' household.
Rom 16:11 Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the household of Narcissus...
2Ti_4:19 Salute Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus.
The Scriptures do not teach that one cannot have possessions and money in which they are to take care of their family and even have some to share with others. Obviously, those that had households would have possessions within their household and an income in which to have their dwelling in the first place.
2Co 12:14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.
I realize this is a verse with a spiritual principle but Paul is using a valid real life principle to make his point.
We see that echoed here:
Pro 13:22 A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just.
There is also this verse:
1Ti 5:13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
I have friends that were in a house church for many years where everyone lived in the same small neighborhood. The wife recounted to my wife how that people would just come over without scheduling ahead of time and it really disrupted the schooling of her kids and other family activities. But, the mentality was "Hey, we're family!" The wife said that "people certainly acted like that." They would even open your refirgerator and help themselves if need be. If you got upset then they would just think you were not perfected in love and needed more of the cross.
I always find it interesting that there are people who love to apply the cross to others but will never carry it themselves. And no surprise, they have others carrying it for them!
I have been outside of the religious system most of my Christian walk and have been a part of house churches most of that time. I have seen a lot of errors and realized what works and what does not work and I am still learning. But, a man and wife and their family should have privacy and it should be respected. This is number 1. There are many more things the Lord has taught me from experience and from His Word and maybe I will add them to this discussion as the Lord leads. Unfortunately, for my wife's friend, her husband did not mind people coming over anytime they wanted during the day, or helping themselves to the food in the fridge. He should have been more concerned about his wife and kids but then he wasn't home during the day. I know the husband very well and he is a well known person amongst the house churches in our area. I wasn't surprised at what my wife told me. I felt sorry for his wife feeling so much pressure that she had to divulge this to someone outside her family and obviously could not work it out with her husband. My wife and I kept this to ourselves and just prayed. None of you will every know who these people are, but the example is useful. I remember him once saying to me, "If we can get all the house churches in this area together, then no one will have any needs." He was referring to physical and monetary needs. That was the primary motivation.
Axehead
Excuse me for interjecting and please don't let it stop you from answering Strat, Episkopos.
Paul recognized the church in the proper context when he had something to address to them (1Co_1:2 Unto the church of God... ) but he also recognized "households".
Rom 16:10 Salute Apelles approved in Christ. Salute them which are of Aristobulus' household.
Rom 16:11 Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the household of Narcissus...
2Ti_4:19 Salute Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus.
The Scriptures do not teach that one cannot have possessions and money in which they are to take care of their family and even have some to share with others. Obviously, those that had households would have possessions within their household and an income in which to have their dwelling in the first place.
2Co 12:14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.
I realize this is a verse with a spiritual principle but Paul is using a valid real life principle to make his point.
We see that echoed here:
Pro 13:22 A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just.
There is also this verse:
1Ti 5:13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
I have friends that were in a house church for many years where everyone lived in the same small neighborhood. The wife recounted to my wife how that people would just come over without scheduling ahead of time and it really disrupted the schooling of her kids and other family activities. But, the mentality was "Hey, we're family!" The wife said that "people certainly acted like that." They would even open your refirgerator and help themselves if need be. If you got upset then they would just think you were not perfected in love and needed more of the cross.
I always find it interesting that there are people who love to apply the cross to others but will never carry it themselves. And no surprise, they have others carrying it for them!
I have been outside of the religious system most of my Christian walk and have been a part of house churches most of that time. I have seen a lot of errors and realized what works and what does not work and I am still learning. But, a man and wife and their family should have privacy and it should be respected. This is number 1. There are many more things the Lord has taught me from experience and from His Word and maybe I will add them to this discussion as the Lord leads. Unfortunately, for my wife's friend, her husband did not mind people coming over anytime they wanted during the day, or helping themselves to the food in the fridge. He should have been more concerned about his wife and kids but then he wasn't home during the day. I know the husband very well and he is a well known person amongst the house churches in our area. I wasn't surprised at what my wife told me. I felt sorry for his wife feeling so much pressure that she had to divulge this to someone outside her family and obviously could not work it out with her husband. My wife and I kept this to ourselves and just prayed. None of you will every know who these people are, but the example is useful. I remember him once saying to me, "If we can get all the house churches in this area together, then no one will have any needs." He was referring to physical and monetary needs. That was the primary motivation.
Axehead
Those who claim to represent God often lay claim to the lives others,the bible says we are bought with a price to be sure...but no human being alive today paid that price and has no legitimate claim on anyone's life but their own,just as we will be judged individually and not collectively we are individuals that collect for a common cause in Jesus...but we are still individuals.
You have tried very hard to make God's way seem foolish and it is for the carnally minded ...
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
I think you are missing the point Axe...this is not about being hermits or hippies...it is about sharing in all things both temporal and spiritual. Here is the biblical perspective...AGAIN...
Act 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
We are stewards of what God gives us...but not for ourselves only. We are called to be ONE in heart and soul. This goes far beyond the middle class lifestyle so it will be hated by those who refuse to surrender to the way of God in Christ.
The best inheritance a man can give his children is a changed world...and a godly example of a sacrificial life. Now that the Spirit has come we would indeed be most foolish to trust in Mammon rather than God. Cash in those RRSP's and invest in the kingdom while we still have the time.
People are BEING perfected both through a personal growth through the Spirit within each man AND also through the presence and authority of God in the fellowship of the disciples.
Is God only a God of the interior life? Can God only juggle one ball at a time? Can't God juggle millions of issues at once. It depends on your level of faith whether you see that or not.
On this very forum we see people who can't believe that God can fix an individual and make him truly righteous. But we also see people who believe God has a little power and can change the individual ...but He lacks the power to change the church into the bride in perfect unity and love. Some are nowhere and have stopped after the first step and some have stopped halfway to the goal...but both have stopped.
You have tried very hard to make God's way seem foolish and it is for the carnally minded ...
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
I think you are missing the point Axe...this is not about being hermits or hippies...it is about sharing in all things both temporal and spiritual. Here is the biblical perspective...AGAIN...
Act 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
We are stewards of what God gives us...but not for ourselves only. We are called to be ONE in heart and soul. This goes far beyond the middle class lifestyle so it will be hated by those who refuse to surrender to the way of God in Christ.
The best inheritance a man can give his children is a changed world...and a godly example of a sacrificial life. Now that the Spirit has come we would indeed be most foolish to trust in Mammon rather than God. Cash in those RRSP's and invest in the kingdom while we still have the time.
People are BEING perfected both through a personal growth through the Spirit within each man AND also through the presence and authority of God in the fellowship of the disciples.
Is God only a God of the interior life? Can God only juggle one ball at a time? Can't God juggle millions of issues at once. It depends on your level of faith whether you see that or not.
On this very forum we see people who can't believe that God can fix an individual and make him truly righteous. But we also see people who believe God has a little power and can change the individual ...but He lacks the power to change the church into the bride in perfect unity and love. Some are nowhere and have stopped after the first step and some have stopped halfway to the goal...but both have stopped.
Carnal minded ? sure thats what religous con men always say to anybody that questions them about anything.
You can read the bible as well as anyone. You just deny what is written for what you think is right.
Similar threads
