The Narrow Way

[dragonfly]

Hi Episkopos,

We come into unity by looking to God...not men.

I think I speak for more than myself when I say 'We know that' - and probably I speak for more than myself when I ask, so why do you keep focusing on men in your posts, and what you assume they are or are not doing?

Or are you not actually speaking to any of us, but the readers who never register to post?

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos,



I think I speak for more than myself when I say 'We know that' - and probably I speak for more than myself when I ask, so why do you keep focusing on men in your posts, and what you assume they are or are not doing?

Or are you not actually speaking to any of us, but the readers who never register to post?

The real question is why the same reaction as unbelievers to the calling in Christ? People like to ignore the bible in some places then claim their legitimacy from other places. So when have I not only stated the biblical position? The biblical practice is a SCANDAL to men. Trying to make it more palatable for the flesh is what is causing the most division. Mixing grace and the human propensity to seek it's own makes for a volatile cocktail that does a lot of harm.

The narrow way is hard. We focus so much on the entering into Christ and the initial grace to do so...and so little on the living way and what actually brings victory to the church in this world. It would seem that the vast majority of believers care little for anything that does not relate to them personally...such as the kingdom of God and the living witness of this in apostolic authority in our place and time. But we can read that too in the bible. It is the sign of the times.

If you talk about the narrow door...no problem. Everybody loves that message. But talk of the narrow way...and the fur flies. The reasoning is what is the use of having your life saved if you can't be free to live life as you wish? THAT is the argument. Discipleship is meant for all but exceedingly few in our time will even take that calling seriously.

I could have called this thread "Cross avoidance" for the negativity it has generated.

God has called many to be saints...but few will be able to make that journey. Rather than rail against the bible or the messenger....let the message sink in...perhaps the truth will dawn.

Take a young person and let them fend for themselves in the woods from the time he can walk. Now compare that person to someone who is raised in a loving family. Will there be a difference? You can never learn to be selfless on your own. The maturity we are called to is love...and that is not the love of an idea. It is a persecution proof love that is unconditional. This takes a lot of suffering to attain. But who is doing the training? The Holy Spirit trains us as we learn to lay down our lives for each other. The kingdom of God is communal....a community of one heart and mind. The body of Christ is the training ground for the selfless love we are called to. Check out the many verses on the subject....

The raw material is selfish, grumpy, impatient, and judgmental. Look at the reactions on this very thread. The fires of community in the Spirit refine those attributes to make spiritual giants of men. But we must be willing and obedient. Look around and see if the modern church breeds men such as this. Now look back at the biblical record...now keep repeating this until you see the difference properly.

The potential of the church goes unrealized when the raw material is declared saved and sanctified and glorified without the way of the cross.

 

[Strat]

We come into unity by looking to God...not men. The bible is more than a story book...it is prophetic and testimonial. Non-believers stay away from the bible because they think the bible has nothing to do with them. Many modern believers do the same thing yet somehow claim to be believers. Same disbelief...different personal claims. Who is being more honest?

You responded to someone by telling them that self examination has nothing to do with the kingdom of God when in fact we are told to examine ourselves,our hearts and motives so you are being a false teacher on that issue.

I'll give you this...you have quite a talent for saying the same thing over and over again in different ways...but the message is always the same...nobody gets it right but you

The picture you use says alot,people sitting at your feet like humble sumbissive children while you define for them the issues of life.

The real question is why the same reaction as unbelievers to the calling in Christ? People like to ignore the bible in some places then claim their legitimacy from other places. So when have I not only stated the biblical position? The biblical practice is a SCANDAL to men. Trying to make it more palatable for the flesh is what is causing the most division. Mixing grace and the human propensity to seek it's own makes for a volatile cocktail that does a lot of harm.

The narrow way is hard. We focus so much on the entering into Christ and the initial grace to do so...and so little on the living way and what actually brings victory to the church in this world. It would seem that the vast majority of believers care little for anything that does not relate to them personally...such as the kingdom of God and the living witness of this in apostolic authority in our place and time. But we can read that too in the bible. It is the sign of the times.

If you talk about the narrow door...no problem. Everybody loves that message. But talk of the narrow way...and the fur flies. The reasoning is what is the use of having your life saved if you can't be free to live life as you wish? THAT is the argument. Discipleship is meant for all but exceedingly few in our time will even take that calling seriously.

I could have called this thread "Cross avoidance" for the negativity it has generated.

God has called many to be saints...but few will be able to make that journey. Rather than rail against the bible or the messenger....let the message sink in...perhaps the truth will dawn.

Take a young person and let them fend for themselves in the woods from the time he can walk. Now compare that person to someone who is raised in a loving family. Will there be a difference? You can never learn to be selfless on your own. The maturity we are called to is love...and that is not the love of an idea. It is a persecution proof love that is unconditional. This takes a lot of suffering to attain. But who is doing the training? The Holy Spirit trains us as we learn to lay down our lives for each other. The kingdom of God is communal....a community of one heart and mind. The body of Christ is the training ground for the selfless love we are called to. Check out the many verses on the subject....

The raw material is selfish, grumpy, impatient, and judgmental. Look at the reactions on this very thread. The fires of community in the Spirit refine those attributes to make spiritual giants of men. But we must be willing and obedient. Look around and see if the modern church breeds men such as this. Now look back at the biblical record...now keep repeating this until you see the difference properly.

The potential of the church goes unrealized when the raw material is declared saved and sanctified and glorified without the way of the cross.

Well my friend you have not displayed much selflessness in this thread,instead you display your self as an icon of the faith and everyone who does not agree with you on all issues,methods,means,circumstances....and who isn't suffering as much you as you would like in the way you would like...are simply hell bound unbelievers,holiness i seasy to come by on the internet....maybe it's your vast superiority and holiness that intimidates people,what did the man say about the publican "I thank God that i am not like other men"

 

[Episkopos]

You responded to someone by telling them that self examination has nothing to do with the kingdom of God when in fact we are told to examine ourselves,our hearts and motives so you are being a false teacher on that issue.

I'll give you this...you have quite a talent for saying the same thing over and over again in different ways...but the message is always the same...nobody gets it right but you

The picture you use says alot,people sitting at your feet like humble sumbissive children while you define for them the issues of life.



Well my friend you have not displayed much selflessness in this thread,instead you display your self as an icon of the faith and everyone who does not agree with you on all issues,methods,means,circumstances....and who isn't suffering as much you as you would like in the way you would like...are simply hell bound unbelievers,holiness i seasy to come by on the internet....maybe it's your vast superiority and holiness that intimidates people,what did the man say about the publican "I thank God that i am not like other men"

We see others the way we are ourselves. I am pointing out to believers what the bible says. Do you think an evangelist is being arrogant by preaching the word to non-believers? Or are you actually too saved to be able to hear any more from the bible since you have gotten what you want out of it?

 

[Strat]

We see others the way we are ourselves. I am pointing out to believers what the bible says. Do you think an evangelist is being arrogant by preaching the word to non-believers? Or are you actually too saved to be able to hear any more from the bible since you have gotten what you want out of it?

You say the bible tells us to have unity...i agree and have not argued against it....You say the bible tells us to share and help eacth other...i agree and have not argued against it....You say the bible tells us to love one another....i agree and have not argued against it....You say some are not doing that...i agree and have never argued against it,one can debate on the percentages but it has always been that way.

Then you start using terms like "personal agendas" and "private lives" as if you know what goes on in the hearts and minds of others... a personal agenda can mean anything,it can mean getting people together in groups in order to control those people...nothing in our lives is private as far as God is concerned but that does not mean my life belongs to you and that you have the right to know everything about it....only God,not you or me is qualified for that priviledge

As far as posessions(stuff) goes i agree we are to help one another but if one is a steward then they have the responsability to see that their resources are used both wisely and rightously....not just hand it over to anybody who claims they have a right to it....when i in fact get some extra and i'm not living paycheck to paycheck i will gladly participate.

 

[Episkopos]

You say the bible tells us to have unity...i agree and have not argued against it....You say the bible tells us to share and help eacth other...i agree and have not argued against it....You say the bible tells us to love one another....i agree and have not argued against it....You say some are not doing that...i agree and have never argued against it,one can debate on the percentages but it has always been that way.

Then you start using terms like "personal agendas" and "private lives" as if you know what goes on in the hearts and minds of others... a personal agenda can mean anything,it can mean getting people together in groups in order to control those people...nothing in our lives is private as far as God is concerned but that does not mean my life belongs to you and that you have the right to know everything about it....only God,not you or me is qualified for that priviledge

As far as posessions(stuff) goes i agree we are to help one another but if one is a steward then they have the responsability to see that their resources are used both wisely and rightously....not just hand it over to anybody who claims they have a right to it....when i in fact get some extra and i'm not living paycheck to paycheck i will gladly participate.

What does "being members one of another" mean to you?

1Co_12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

1Co_12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1Co_12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co_12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Eph_4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Is the bible supporting the idea of weekly religious services?

 

[Strat]

What does "being members one of another" mean to you?

1Co_12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

1Co_12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1Co_12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co_12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Eph_4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Is the bible supporting the idea of weekly religious services?

Again, who has argued against those things ? so now i guess those who attend services on Sunday are hell bound as well ?

To me being memebers of one another means being kind to one another and helping when you can,not being demanding and barging into areas of other peopler's lives uninvited or giving advice when it is not ask for based on some notion that they somehow belong to me

 

[Episkopos]

Again, who has argued against those things ? so now i guess those who attend services on Sunday are hell bound as well ?

To me being memebers of one another means being kind to one another and helping when you can,not being demanding and barging into areas of other peopler's lives uninvited or giving advice when it is not ask for based on some notion that they somehow belong to me

What does the 2 become one flesh mean to you (in marriage)?

Mat_19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

 

[dragonfly]

For those who wonder what it might take to walk with God pleasing Him, here is a short testimony by Pastor Conlon of Times Square Church, NYC, in which he describes how God separated him from some of his natural aspirations through difficulties, and proved Himself more than able to supply what he needed as he continued trusting God.

http://media.tscnyc.org/mp3/20080914S3.mp3 Miracles (32 minutes)

What does the 2 become one flesh mean to you (in marriage)?

Mat_19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

What has this question got to do with the topic?

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

27 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him]. 28 Come to me, all that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye [you all] shall find rest to your souls. 30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.

Our taking of His yoke upon ourselves, necessarily separates us from (even) our spouse, spiritually speaking.

 

[Episkopos]

For those who wonder what it might take to walk with God pleasing Him, here is a short testimony by Pastor Conlon of Times Square Church, NYC, in which he describes how God separated him from some of his natural aspirations through difficulties, and proved Himself more than able to supply what he needed as he continued trusting God.

http://media.tscnyc.org/mp3/20080914S3.mp3 Miracles (32 minutes)




What has this question got to do with the topic?

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

27 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him]. 28 Come to me, all that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye [you all] shall find rest to your souls. 30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.

Our taking of His yoke upon ourselves, necessarily separates us from (even) our spouse, spiritually speaking.

You are arguing Jesus against Jesus? Are you sure you understand this thread?

We live in an age of superficiality. That is the prevalent distinction of our time. The marriage commitment is taken lightly by many. Even the "believers" have a 50% divorce rate. When we take this superficial and selfish approach lo life in general and try applying something as scandalous and radical as the teachings of Christ about oneness of the body of Christ it is certain to be either misunderstood or temporized. The message can't sink in...since we are looking with modern eyes that know nothing of the depth of experience that the bible testifies to.

But the standard remains there for those who would persevere in seeking beyond what comes immediately to mind or heart. If we can't even keep a commitment that gratifies us in this life (like physical marriage) , how much less will we be able to pass through a way that even Jesus said was both narrow and difficult?

It is like this...

Imagine a doorway after which is a straight path leading exactly in line with the doorway. Now we all come to the doorway from a different angle...of course no one is already on the exact right course that leads directly to the doorway. So God attracts us to the door or makes our path intercept the door..by grace. But if we continue along the same course that took us through the doorway we will go off in as many directions AFTER going through the door. So we have thousands of denominations corresponding to every possible deflected angle of the path we have chosen. But we are to walk on the highway of holiness after passing through the doorway...not claim that every path we choose after the doorway leads to life.

So we have a double task...to walk through the doorway (from whatever previous course we happen to have been on) AND follow the narrow path that leads to the throne of God. To do this means a radical departure from what we once thought was right and proper. We must be renewed in our whole way of thinking. We know the evidence of this renewal...to love as Jesus loved and to forsake all things in order to follow Christ as HIS disciple.

1Jn_2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Luk_14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.


Let the squirming begin anew!!!!

Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

That find IT???? Which is the "it", the gate or the way? Many go through the gate but few follow the way. Many are called but few are chosen.

So the multitudes think that Jesus is who you want Him to be...there is no set doorway to Christ. And the those who do find the door think that the way is whatever you want it to be...there is no definite way of Christ set forth by God.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

God is Love.
Our goal is to get TO GOD.
Christ is the gate.
We go through the gate, to God, and back out to the people, same as the Levities went to the Laver, then the altar, then the tent of meeting, then back to the people.

To get to God, you get there through love. Not avoiding sin.

Picture you stand in the middle of a compass. This is where "Ray Comfort" scares you to God. You learn you are in sin, and sin is bad and God will burn you forever like Al Quaida dropped the twin towers if you don't escape sin. So you drop your life and flee sin.

You have 359 directions to run that is wrong.
You have one way to run to God.

Would you rather run FROM SIN, or TO GOD?

God is Love.
See last parable of matt 25, who made it to God there?
See Gal 5:6,
See matt 5:43-48
See 1 john 4:16-18.

That's your narrow path.

 

[Episkopos]

God is Love.
Our goal is to get TO GOD.
Christ is the gate.
We go through the gate, to God, and back out to the people, same as the Levities went to the Laver, then the altar, then the tent of meeting, then back to the people.

To get to God, you get there through love. Not avoiding sin.

Picture you stand in the middle of a compass. This is where "Ray Comfort" scares you to God. You learn you are in sin, and sin is bad and God will burn you forever like Al Quaida dropped the twin towers if you don't escape sin. So you drop your life and flee sin.

You have 359 directions to run that is wrong.
You have one way to run to God.

Would you rather run FROM SIN, or TO GOD?

God is Love.
See last parable of matt 25, who made it to God there?
See Gal 5:6,
See matt 5:43-48
See 1 john 4:16-18.

That's your narrow path.

Read the whole thread! We are called to the full stature of Christ. The early disciples had something the bible calls the ecclesia...the body of Christ. The purpose of the ecclesia is to build up the individuals into a oneness that reflects the way heaven is. This is also the means for every individual member to attain to love. Check it out!

 

[Strat]

What does the 2 become one flesh mean to you (in marriage)?

Mat_19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

We are not talking about marriage

 

[Xian Pugilist]

I get it, I'm protestant and make the case for Apostolic Authority. I've quoted the Scripture you get your comments below from. NOTHING I said disagrees with your conclusion.

Read the whole thread! We are called to the full stature of Christ. The early disciples had something the bible calls the ecclesia...the body of Christ. The purpose of the ecclesia is to build up the individuals into a oneness that reflects the way heaven is. This is also the means for every individual member to attain to love. Check it out!

This is the Unity found in eph 4:12-3ish.
IT's the Unity Jesus prayed for in the 3 John 17 prayers as well.

We are not talking about marriage

 

[Strat]

You are arguing Jesus against Jesus? Are you sure you understand this thread?

We live in an age of superficiality. That is the prevalent distinction of our time. The marriage commitment is taken lightly by many. Even the "believers" have a 50% divorce rate. When we take this superficial and selfish approach lo life in general and try applying something as scandalous and radical as the teachings of Christ about oneness of the body of Christ it is certain to be either misunderstood or temporized. The message can't sink in...since we are looking with modern eyes that know nothing of the depth of experience that the bible testifies to.

But the standard remains there for those who would persevere in seeking beyond what comes immediately to mind or heart. If we can't even keep a commitment that gratifies us in this life (like physical marriage) , how much less will we be able to pass through a way that even Jesus said was both narrow and difficult?

It is like this...

Imagine a doorway after which is a straight path leading exactly in line with the doorway. Now we all come to the doorway from a different angle...of course no one is already on the exact right course that leads directly to the doorway. So God attracts us to the door or makes our path intercept the door..by grace. But if we continue along the same course that took us through the doorway we will go off in as many directions AFTER going through the door. So we have thousands of denominations corresponding to every possible deflected angle of the path we have chosen. But we are to walk on the highway of holiness after passing through the doorway...not claim that every path we choose after the doorway leads to life.

So we have a double task...to walk through the doorway (from whatever previous course we happen to have been on) AND follow the narrow path that leads to the throne of God. To do this means a radical departure from what we once thought was right and proper. We must be renewed in our whole way of thinking. We know the evidence of this renewal...to love as Jesus loved and to forsake all things in order to follow Christ as HIS disciple.

1Jn_2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Luk_14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.


Let the squirming begin anew!!!!

Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

That find IT???? Which is the "it", the gate or the way? Many go through the gate but few follow the way. Many are called but few are chosen.

So the multitudes think that Jesus is who you want Him to be...there is no set doorway to Christ. And the those who do find the door think that the way is whatever you want it to be...there is no definite way of Christ set forth by God.

Once again you are using the word "forsake" in a way that suggest we cannot have anything,if i cannot have anything then i am not going to work for anything...s we as christians are not to work or do anything but huddle together like Bees or Ants....nobody is squirming because you are not that effective,you like so many others are attempting to build a doctrine on one passage of scripture describing a situation...if living in communes was vital to salvation it would be mentioned over and over again as a commandment like repentence,holiness and rightousness are.

What you suggest,and it doesn't suprise me,is that some people work and be productive while others do nothing and lay claim to the fruits of their labor....is that what you do ?
It just ocurred to me why you don't think avoiding sin and living a holy life in a sinful world is the"narrow" way...i ask you when i first came here if you were perfect ? as i recall you never answered me which i take to be yes....well,once one has transcended sin in this life and have become perfect,a completely unbiblical doctrine, i guess they begin to look for other ways to earn their way into heaven.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Once again you are using the word "forsake" in a way that suggest we cannot have anything,if i cannot have anything then i am not going to work for anything...s we as christians are not to work or do anything but huddle together like Bees or Ants....nobody is squirming because you are not that effective,you like so many others are attempting to build a doctrine on one passage of scripture describing a situation...if living in communes was vital to salvation it would be mentioned over and over again as a commandment like repentence,holiness and rightousness are.

What you suggest,and it doesn't suprise me,is that some people work and be productive while others do nothing and lay claim to the fruits of their labor....is that what you do ?

Errrr. I think the premise is a little skewed. Forsake doesn't mean you can't have anything. It means you gave something up. YOu can't give it up if you never had it.

Thus Adam had to Sin, so he would have something to give up. The SIN allowed God to be love, and for man to love God. Without the sin it couldn't have happened, Love would be undefined.

The RYR had to forsake a life he built for himself that provided all of his needs and come to Christ totally dependent on Christ to provide for Him. Full dependence, poor in Spirit....

 

[Episkopos]

We are not talking about marriage

I am trying to reveal the way you see things even if you wish to avoid this light. The last person we get to know is ourselves. Are you avoiding the issue?

Once again you are using the word "forsake" in a way that suggest we cannot have anything,if i cannot have anything then i am not going to work for anything...s we as christians are not to work or do anything but huddle together like Bees or Ants....nobody is squirming because you are not that effective,you like so many others are attempting to build a doctrine on one passage of scripture describing a situation...if living in communes was vital to salvation it would be mentioned over and over again as a commandment like repentence,holiness and rightousness are.

What you suggest,and it doesn't suprise me,is that some people work and be productive while others do nothing and lay claim to the fruits of their labor....is that what you do ?
It just ocurred to me why you don't think avoiding sin and living a holy life in a sinful world is the"narrow" way...i ask you when i first came here if you were perfect ? as i recall you never answered me which i take to be yes....well,once one has transcended sin in this life and have become perfect,a completely unbiblical doctrine, i guess they begin to look for other ways to earn their way into heaven.

Again you are tossing aside the bible for your own way of seeing the world. What kind of Christian prefers his own understanding to the word of God?

What is completely unbiblical is to NOT forsake all and still call yourself a Christian.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

It just ocurred to me why you don't think avoiding sin and living a holy life in a sinful world is the"narrow" way...i ask you when i first came here if you were perfect ? as i recall you never answered me which i take to be yes....well,once one has transcended sin in this life and have become perfect,a completely unbiblical doctrine, i guess they begin to look for other ways to earn their way into heaven.

Paul said he was to prepare us to be perfect when Christ returned. That is most assuredly before death.

And Paul claimed himself and others were perfect.

The problem isn't with the concept of a perfect Xian, but with your understanding of what the Bible does say.

OR, you are right and Paul was wrong.
I'm a bettin' man, I'll take this one.

 

[Strat]

I am trying to reveal the way you see things even if you wish to avoid this light. The last person we get to know is ourselves. Are you avoiding the issue?



Again you are tossing aside the bible for your own way of seeing the world. What kind of Christian prefers his own understanding to the word of God?

What is completely unbiblical is to NOT forsake all and still call yourself a Christian.

I am trying to get you to quit hiding behind the smoke and mirrors you create and make a real point for a change.

Errrr. I think the premise is a little skewed. Forsake doesn't mean you can't have anything. It means you gave something up. YOu can't give it up if you never had it.

Thus Adam had to Sin, so he would have something to give up. The SIN allowed God to be love, and for man to love God. Without the sin it couldn't have happened, Love would be undefined.

The RYR had to forsake a life he built for himself that provided all of his needs and come to Christ totally dependent on Christ to provide for Him. Full dependence, poor in Spirit....

Perhaps you can answer a question the other one refuses to answer...can you work a secular job to earn money to live on ????

Paul said he was to prepare us to be perfect when Christ returned. That is most assuredly before death.

And Paul claimed himself and others were perfect.

The problem isn't with the concept of a perfect Xian, but with your understanding of what the Bible does say.

OR, you are right and Paul was wrong.
I'm a bettin' man, I'll take this one.

No,the problem is that a person may be postionally perfect but thay are not practically perfect...they still sin.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

There is no such thing as positionally perfect. God either remakes you or He doesn't.

Positional soteriology is accuring AS you mature. But it's COMPLETE WHEN YOU ARE MATURE/PERFECT/TELIOO. ONE is a wink wink from God, the other is a changed person.

I am trying to get you to quit hiding behind the smoke and mirrors you create and make a real point for a change.


Perhaps you can answer a question the other one refuses to answer...can you work a secular job to earn money to live on ????



No,the problem is that a person may be postionally perfect but thay are not practically perfect...they still sin.