The nations have gone mad...

[BibleScribe]

...
The question here is whether History can reveal a time when the united Roman Empire became divided into ten parts? ...

Hi Insight,

It would seem you still have not overcome the Daniel 2:45 "... iron, bronze, clay, silver, gold ... " -- 4,3,5,2,1 sequence. As such I have provided an explanation, but you have only presented a 4a/4a ~Revived Roman Empire~ scenario. I've equally provided the FIVE Permanent and FIVE Nominated = 10 nation group under the Permanent Membership to the Security Council.

And under the instruction of the angel in Daniel 12:4 & 9, these are end-time entities, (i.e., approximate to 1948), as opposed to your fruitless search for candidates long lost to history.


But I will throw out that indeed the number "10" does have significance in more than one aspect, provided as follows:


1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
-- 6. Bear, Russia
-- 7. Leopard, China
-- 8. "dreadful", United Nations
-- 9. Great Stone, Millennial Kingdom
-- 10. New Jerusalem, Eternity in Heaven


Thus one of the "completeness" attributes which you cite.


BibleScribe

 

[brionne]

As a side note, I also find it interesting that the number 10 is used. The Bible uses this number to teach completeness, which suggests (to me) the dividing work of the Roman Empire was complete for the purpose which God had intended.

the number 10 in revelation could also simply be a number that represents the world powers as a whole... you are looking for 10 specific nations but the reality could simply be that the number 10 is representative of the entire worlds political system.

and if you think of that in terms of the feet of Daniels image, it isnt divided into ten equal parts...its just completely divided. So this is why I dont take the '10 kings' in Revelation to mean 10 literal nations... i take it to mean the entire world of politics. Daniel says that its "in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom...it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms" in Daniel 2:44 so the most likely answer is that the 10 kings of revelation stands for the complete polictical system today.

 

[brionne]

But I will throw out that indeed the number "10" does have significance in more than one aspect, provided as follows:


1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
-- 6. Bear, Russia
-- 7. Leopard, China
-- 8. "dreadful", United Nations
-- 9. Great Stone, Millennial Kingdom
-- 10. New Jerusalem, Eternity in Heaven


Thus one of the "completeness" attributes which you cite.


BibleScribe

I have a few issues with this

1, When John wrote revelations, the existing power was Rome...the others had already been, so John would not have been prophesying about powers of the past. A prophecy is always about a 'future event'. So you cant have Babylon, MedoPersian and Greece kingdoms of the past included in a prophetic vision of the future.

the 2nd issue i have is that you've grouped Gods Kingdom in among the kingdoms of the wild beast. The wild beast is called a 'wild beast' because the kingdoms of it are 'earthly'... Gods kingdom is 'no part of this world' so you cannot count it in among the kingdoms of the wild beast.

 

[Insight]

1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
-- 6. Bear, Russia
-- 7. Leopard, China
-- 8. "dreadful", United Nations
-- 9. Great Stone, Millennial Kingdom
-- 10. New Jerusalem, Eternity in Heaven

Nice arrangement BibleScribe, did you do this yourself?

 

[Insight]

the number 10 in revelation could also simply be a number that represents the world powers as a whole...

It is true that all Nations will be involved in as per Rev 16 however the location of the Beast system is refined to the area Dan 2 & 7 as we shall see.

you are looking for 10 specific nations but the reality could simply be that the number 10 is representative of the entire worlds political system.

I will not be dogmatic on the preciseness of these 10 nations and 10 kings.

and if you think of that in terms of the feet of Daniels image, it isnt divided into ten equal parts...its just completely divided. So this is why I dont take the '10 kings' in Revelation to mean 10 literal nations... i take it to mean the entire world of politics.

I will not go out of my way to change your mind on this however this study “may” provide aspects not previously considered.

Daniel says that its "in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom...it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms" in Daniel 2:44 so the most likely answer is that the 10 kings of revelation stands for the complete political system today.

I can see how you would draw to this conclusion based on Dan 2:44. While I believe all the Kings of the earth will need to come under the authority of Jesus Christ, it appears this beast system has notable roots, and it is essential we identify its history and origin. Simply saying it’s the whole world will not provide us the insight into its evil manifestations in the earth.

Thank you for your comments – look forward to more to come.


Insight

 

[Insight]

"And upon his horns ten crowns" Rev 13:1

Again we see the use of the word Crowns adding further proof of self-government.

You will see from Rev. 12:3, the crowns are placed on the heads of the Dragon, indicating that the prophecy was fulfilled before the nationalities represented by the horns obtained individual independence.

Crowns on the horns instead of the heads indicate that at the time of the prophecy, the Empire had been divided into ten independent nations.

Maybe you both would like to comment on the difference between the Dragon of chapter 12 and the Beast here in Chapter 13?

Both are described as having "seven heads and ten horns,"

And why it is no longer presented as it was in chapter 12?

In other words what happened to cause such a change?

It will be imperative we reconcile these differences with valid historical evidence. Otherwise we may fall into the trap of heresy.

Insight

 

[BibleScribe]

the number 10 in revelation could also simply be a number that represents the world powers as a whole... you are looking for 10 specific nations but the reality could simply be that the number 10 is representative of the entire worlds political system.

and if you think of that in terms of the feet of Daniels image, it isnt divided into ten equal parts...its just completely divided. So this is why I dont take the '10 kings' in Revelation to mean 10 literal nations... i take it to mean the entire world of politics. Daniel says that its "in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom...it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms" in Daniel 2:44 so the most likely answer is that the 10 kings of revelation stands for the complete polictical system today.

Hi Pegg,

There are three clearly defined aspects to the Daniel 2 Image of Metals.

#1. Daniel 2:45 says there are FIVE distinct world empires.

#2. The Fifth empire is "divided" between some number of co-existing dominant powers (i.e., ~super~ powers). Please note that the "divided" ~super~ powers are NOT the toes, because that division is self evident. Thus we must anticipate (and discover) that the greater portion of the Feet are "divided" as provided, and the lessor portion (the toes) are presented as a concluding total of 10 primary nations under some potential consolidation, typical of the United Nations. (Please note that prophecy interpretation is first of all, literal; secondly, figurative; and finally, spiritual. As such I would propose that the first hierarchy is met.)

#3. The 10 toes of this Image have been identified as of August 1993, as both the Current (5ea) and Nominated (5ea) Permanent Membership of the Security Council, .


Next, Daniel 7 provides clarification of two considerations. The first is that this chapter covers end-time specifics as dictated by the angelic guidance in Daniel 12:4 & 9. Secondly, these end-time government are the three internationally recognized SuperPowers, -- the U.S., Russia, and China.


Thus Scripture and History both agree, without any handwavium, miraculum, proposalloy, ridiculum, or unobtainium.




Regarding your second post, you miss what the Abbingdon Commentators correctly note:

“[The] five of whom are fallen [presumes John’s work to be written in] Vespasian’s reign. Titus is to come, but only to last for a short time. Perhaps the writer knew of the hopeless condition of Titus’ health. He is therefore either using a literary convention, and assuming an earlier date than is the fact to give his words the force of a prophecy concerning Titus, or, more likely, his is using here material written in Vespasian’s reign which partly suits his purpose and partly not; for there are very good reasons for thinking that this book was written, not in Vespasian’s reign, but in Domitian’s.”[1]​

[1] Eiselen, Frederick, Edwin Lewis, & David Downey, The Abingdon Bible Commentary, Abingdon Press, NY, 1929, p. 1392​

Thus either John is lying about the point of history in which he is writing, or there is another answer to this ~riddle~. And I would propose that when Russia attacks israel, the whole world will wonder at this prophecy, making it correct in a ~future-present-tense~ context.


And where you took issue with the outline as presented, please accept this revision:


1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
-- 6. Bear, Russia
-- 7. Leopard, China
-- 8. "dreadful", United Nations
9. Great Stone, Millennial Kingdom
10. New Jerusalem, Eternity in Heaven


However, the sequence is the same, the number is the same, Scripture is the same, and History is the same. But of course we know that Empire #9 will replace the "metropolis" model which is evident not only since it's application in the Babylonian Empire (~mystery Babylon~, throughout the ages), as the creator of Superman correctly ascribed as New York City, -- but which shall be recognized in the near future as Jerusalem.



But Pegg, this is only a small portion of this interwoven picture. Daniel 8 & 11, and Revelation 13 all join in concert to validate this end time depiction.

BibleScribe

 

[brionne]

It is true that all Nations will be involved in as per Rev 16 however the location of the Beast system is refined to the area Dan 2 & 7 as we shall see.



I will not be dogmatic on the preciseness of these 10 nations and 10 kings.



I will not go out of my way to change your mind on this however this study “may” provide aspects not previously considered.



I can see how you would draw to this conclusion based on Dan 2:44. While I believe all the Kings of the earth will need to come under the authority of Jesus Christ, it appears this beast system has notable roots, and it is essential we identify its history and origin. Simply saying it’s the whole world will not provide us the insight into its evil manifestations in the earth.

Thank you for your comments – look forward to more to come.


Insight

here are some more scritpures, which i believe really do imply that all the kingdoms are in fact the 'ten kings'


The wild beast and the 10 horns are one and the same:
Daniel 7:7 “After this I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! a fourth beast, fearsome and terrible and unusually strong. And it had teeth of iron, big ones. It was devouring and crushing, and what was left it was treading down with its feet. And it was something different from all the [other] beasts that were prior to it, and it had ten horns

Rev 13:1 And it stood still upon the sand of the sea.
And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea, with ten horns



It is the same wild beast that fights the lamb:

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage the war with the one seated on the horse and with his army.

Rev 16:14 They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and perform signs, and they go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty



so just from comparing these verses, its pretty clear that the wild beast and the 10 horns are the same thing... the 10 horns represent the rulerships of the earth and in all it is called a 'wild beast' just as the rulerships of the past were likened to wild beasts.

 

[BibleScribe]

...
Revelation 19:19 And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage the war with the one seated on the horse and with his army.

Rev 16:14 They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and perform signs, and they go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty



so just from comparing these verses, its pretty clear that the wild beast and the 10 horns are the same thing... the 10 horns represent the rulerships of the earth and in all it is called a 'wild beast' just as the rulerships of the past were likened to wild beasts.

Pegg,

There's a difference between the ten kings, and the rest of the nations of the earth. Certainly the 10 are not only regional representatives, but also significant in their own authorities. But just as in WWI and WWII, (and other wars) there are principle players and minor players. As such we can clearly know the first group:


Current Permanent Membership to the Security Council:

1. United States
2. United Kingdom
3. France
4. Russia
5. China


Nominated for Permanent Membership to the Security Council:

6. Germany
7. Japan
8. Brazil
9. Nigeria
10. India



BibleScribe

 

[Insight]

"And upon his horns ten crowns" Rev 13:1

Again we see the use of the word Crowns adding further proof of self-government.

You will see from Rev. 12:3, the crowns are placed on the heads of the Dragon, indicating that the prophecy was fulfilled before the nationalities represented by the horns obtained individual independence.

Crowns on the horns instead of the heads indicate that at the time of the prophecy, the Empire had been divided into ten independent nations.

Maybe you both would like to comment on the difference between the Dragon of chapter 12 and the Beast here in Chapter 13?

Both are described as having "seven heads and ten horns,"

And why it is no longer presented as it was in chapter 12?

In other words what happened to cause such a change?

It will be imperative we reconcile these differences with valid historical evidence. Otherwise we may fall into the trap of heresy.

Insight

Waiting for your to explain the above:

And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. Rev 12:3

cmp

And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. Rev 13:1

Waiting...

 

[BibleScribe]

Hey Insight,

I guess that's my queue.


Rev. 12:3
[sup]3[/sup] ... and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rev. 13:1
... I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, ...



Per Insight: "the prophecy was fulfilled before the nationalities represented by the horns obtained individual independence."



I'm not sure what "individual independence" means. If you have a nation, it is inherently independent upon declaration. Insight, you've certainly baffled me as to your logic. Please clarify/amplify.






BibleScribe

 

[veteran]

The time of existence of the beast system that had only seven crowns MUST be understood in context with all the information given about it...

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(KJV)

That 7 crowned beast is in relation to Satan's first rebellion against God, which of course happened long, long ago, even prior to Adam.

 

[Insight]

The time of existence of the beast system that had only seven crowns MUST be understood in context with all the information given about it...

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(KJV)

That 7 crowned beast is in relation to Satan's first rebellion against God, which of course happened long, long ago, even prior to Adam.

It's ok Veteran

I will wait for BibleScribe to answer as he at least understands the historical setting of Rev 12&13.

The cheek of writing off these two amazing chapters on a fairy tale of mystical creatures.

So should be flogged for such manipulation of God’s Word.

Insight

 

[Insight]

Hey Insight,

I guess that's my queue.


Rev. 12:3
[sup]3[/sup] ... and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rev. 13:1
... I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, ...



Per Insight: "the prophecy was fulfilled before the nationalities represented by the horns obtained individual independence."



I'm not sure what "individual independence" means. If you have a nation, it is inherently independent upon declaration. Insight, you've certainly baffled me as to your logic. Please clarify/amplify.

BibleScribe

Individual independence relates to the horns of the beast receiving individual crowns (of authority) compared to that of the beast.
You have no doubt noticed in Rev 12:3, 4 the crowns are located on the heads, whereas in Rev 13:1 they are now situated on the horns.

What does this indicate?

And why the change?

BibleScribe, when studying the Revelation, it is incredibly important to note the finer detail and not make unfounded, unlearned comments like that of Veterans, whereby the meaning and significance is lost for lack of an enquiring mind.

This above lesson is but one of many lessons we shall discover together.

Insight

 

[BibleScribe]

...
This above lesson is but one of many lessons we shall discover together.
...

I'm still waiting for the "lesson". :lol:


Insight, there is a dragon and there is a beast. The dragon has SEVEN crowns on it's HEADS. The beast has TEN crowns on it's HORNS.


Foregoing the lecture on how important "study" is, how about focusing on the interpretation, which thus far you've only provided: "the prophecy was fulfilled before the nationalities represented by the horns obtained individual independence" -- whatever that means?!?1?



So please provide exactly why the dragon has SEVEN crowns on it's HEADS, and the beast has TEN crowns on it's HORNS.



BibleScribe

...
That 7 crowned beast is in relation to Satan's first rebellion against God, which of course happened long, long ago, even prior to Adam.

Hi Veteran,

Your assertion is not only unfounded speculation, -- it's incorrect. In fact, it's nothing less than ~spiritualization~ (i.e., handwavium), because you have no clue as to the significance. And where ignorance is not bad in and of itself, it is ill advised to pronounce it as truth.


BibleScribe

 

[Insight]

So please provide exactly why the dragon has SEVEN crowns on it's HEADS, and the beast has TEN crowns on it's HORNS.

BibleScribe

BibleScribe

It appears we need to take a step back to better understand the Revelation as a whole. We are presented with 5 very clear similarities of the 4 beasts of the Apocalypse.

Distinguished by 10 horns – Dan.7:7; Rev. 12:3, 13:1, 17:3​

• Noted for blasphemy against God – Dan.7:25; Rev.13:5,6; 17:3​

• Makes war with the saints & prevails against them – Dan.7:21; Rev.12:17; 13:7; 13:15; 17:6​

• Power to persecute for 1,260 days/years – Dan.7:25; Rev. 12:14; 13:5​

• Destroyed by Christ at his coming – Dan.7:22; Rev.17:14​

What precisely is the significance of these creatures?​

Insight​

 

[BibleScribe]

...

What precisely is the significance of these creatures?​

...

Hi Insight,

I think if you need to validate the precedence of the dragon and beasts to resolve why there on SEVEN crowns on the HEADS, and TEN crowns on the HORNS, (respectively), then please present your foundational concepts, and then amplify/clarify why the crown differ in number and proximity:


"the prophecy was fulfilled before the nationalities represented by the horns obtained individual independence" -- whatever that means?!?1?




Please provide exactly why the dragon has SEVEN crowns on it's HEADS, and the beast has TEN crowns on it's HORNS.



BibleScribe

 

[Insight]

Hi Insight,

I think if you need to validate the precedence of the dragon and beasts to resolve why there on SEVEN crowns on the HEADS, and TEN crowns on the HORNS, (respectively), then please present your foundational concepts, and then amplify/clarify why the crown differ in number and proximity:


"the prophecy was fulfilled before the nationalities represented by the horns obtained individual independence" -- whatever that means?!?1?




Please provide exactly why the dragon has SEVEN crowns on it's HEADS, and the beast has TEN crowns on it's HORNS.



BibleScribe

Yes BibleScribe,

I am perplexed as to how you can turn my question to you back on me?

Are you asking because you do not know or something else?

Insight

 

[BibleScribe]

Yes BibleScribe,

I am perplexed as to how you can turn my question to you back on me?

Are you asking because you do not know or something else?

Insight

Hi Insight,

I'm requesting that if you make a statement that needs further clarification/amplification:

"the prophecy was fulfilled before the nationalities represented by the horns obtained individual independence"


... and your clarification/amplification is no better than the original statement :

Individual independence relates to the horns of the beast receiving individual crowns (of authority) compared to that of the beast.


... and then attempt to redefine the basis so that you can provide that clarification/amplification:

It appears we need to take a step back to better understand the Revelation as a whole.


... that you complete that assessment. -- It should not be incumbent upon me to answer your basis so you can complete your "lesson":

What precisely is the significance of these creatures?




So where you started this subject, you've offered to explain the distinction between Revelation 12 and Revelation 13:

"And upon his horns ten crowns" Rev 13:1

Again we see the use of the word Crowns adding further proof of self-government.
You will see from Rev. 12:3, the crowns are placed on the heads of the Dragon, indicating that the prophecy was fulfilled before the nationalities represented by the horns obtained individual independence.


... but have failed to address who the Dragon is, who the seven heads are, who the beast is, who the horns are, and how these transition from one to another:

the dragon has SEVEN crowns on it's HEADS, and the beast has TEN crowns on it's HORNS.




As such, please explain your "lesson" in full compliance with both Scripture and History.

BibleScribe

 

[Insight]

Hi Insight,

I'm requesting that if you make a statement that needs further clarification/amplification:

"the prophecy was fulfilled before the nationalities represented by the horns obtained individual independence"


... and your clarification/amplification is no better than the original statement :

Individual independence relates to the horns of the beast receiving individual crowns (of authority) compared to that of the beast.


... and then attempt to redefine the basis so that you can provide that clarification/amplification:

It appears we need to take a step back to better understand the Revelation as a whole.


... that you complete that assessment. -- It should not be incumbent upon me to answer your basis so you can complete your "lesson":

What precisely is the significance of these creatures?




So where you started this subject, you've offered to explain the distinction between Revelation 12 and Revelation 13:

"And upon his horns ten crowns" Rev 13:1

Again we see the use of the word Crowns adding further proof of self-government.
You will see from Rev. 12:3, the crowns are placed on the heads of the Dragon, indicating that the prophecy was fulfilled before the nationalities represented by the horns obtained individual independence.


... but have failed to address who the Dragon is, who the seven heads are, who the beast is, who the horns are, and how these transition from one to another:

the dragon has SEVEN crowns on it's HEADS, and the beast has TEN crowns on it's HORNS.




As such, please explain your "lesson" in full compliance with both Scripture and History.

BibleScribe

BibleScribe

Many scholars have put forth varying definiations to these 10 parts (the breaking up of the Roman Empire). Here is one such list: the Huns, Vandals, Visigoths, Burgundians, Gepidae, Lombards, Franks, Suevi, Alans, Babarians.

As we have clearly identified "And upon his horns ten crowns" Rev 13:1NET which we equate to crowns of authority and or self-government, like that of Australia today however speaking to the Roman Empire. Independent authority was established by these varying tribal nations within the empire of Rome.

In Rev. 12:3NET we have noted the crowns are placed on the heads of the Dragon, indicating that the prophecy was fulfilled before the nationalities represented by the horns obtained individual independence.

The crowns moving from the heads to the horns indicates that at the time of the prophecy, the Empire had been divided into ten independent nations.

If you go back to Rev 12:3NET "And seven crowns upon his heads – again the crowns must speak to some kind of authority. It has clearly become evident the crowns are displayed on the heads and not on the horns of the dragon (as they are in Rev 13:1NET). I believe this shows us when the prophecy was to be fulfilled. It was to be before the breakup of the Roman Empire into its several divisions.

The movement of authority from heads to horns would be a sign to those early saints who suffered terribly under the Beast system.

As we know, these signs / visions were given to strengthen the early believers encouraging them to endure until the end.

Insight