The nations have gone mad...

[Insight]

Hi Insight,

I agree with the citations of both the beast and the false prophet. But it is not enough to simply re-state Scripture. You should have SOME greater understanding of inferences, significance, associations, and identities, -- but you offer none of these. And then you insist for that which I've provided multiple times. Do you want me to do all the work? Are you not able to receive a portion, and then multiply it? -- You do recall what happened to the servant which hid his talent, -- and so I would adjure you to not be as that example.


So where do we go from here? Having presented the evidence of a FIFTH "divided" Empire of Clay, are you willing to address those "divided" kingdoms specified in Daniel 7? Or are you as so many who prefer their false-doctrine security blanket?



BibleScribe

As I thought you remind me of those council workers who lean upon their shovels.

We could argue and debate the fifth "empire" scenario by restating it’s only a phase of the image, however it appears you are immoveable in this regard.

I provided an overview to enable you to take a "lead" rather than playing the antagonist.

It appears you are "only" one dimensional.

I will follow with an introduction to Revelation 13 shortly.

Insight

 

[BibleScribe]

As I thought you remind me of those council workers who lean upon their shovels.

I presume you're talking about the "county" workers. And as the story goes, -- they arrived on the job site, looked in the back of the truck for their shovels, but they weren't there. So they radio'd to dispatch, and dispatch said a truck was on it's way, but in the meantime they'd have to lean on each other. :lol:

We could argue and debate the fifth "empire" scenario by restating it’s only a phase of the image, however it appears you are immoveable in this regard.

I'm not sure why you want to argue against what Scripture says, i.e., 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE. However, I would greatly appreciate if you'd simply provide an explanation for that sequence. I.e., ... the Clay is separated from the Iron because (fill in the blank) . Otherwise you leave Scripture unanswered, as though you were the Author/Editor instead of GOD.



BibleScribe

 

[brionne]

Courtesy of omegatimes

The head was governed by one man who came to know God.

The feet are governed by many people who do not know God.

its a wonderful thing that we are living in the time of the feet... it means that very soon the rock will be cut from the mountain and it will destroy the image completely.

Daniel 2:31 “You, O king, happened to be beholding, and, look! a certain immense image. That image, which was large and the brightness of which was extraordinary, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was dreadful. 32 As regards that image, its head was of good gold, its breasts and its arms were of silver, its belly and its thighs were of copper, 33 its legs were of iron, its feet were partly of iron and partly of molded clay. 34 You kept on looking until a stone was cut out not by hands, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and of molded clay and crushed them. 35 At that time the iron, the molded clay, the copper, the silver and the gold were, all together, crushed and became like the chaff from the summer threshing floor, and the wind carried them away so that no trace at all was found of them. And as for the stone that struck the image, it became a large mountain and filled the whole earth
This image represents the worlds kingdoms/governments...the feet are partly iron and partly clay because of democracy. The rulerships that used to be solid are weakened with clay because democracy has spread around the world among all the nations and that is why the feet are mixed through with clay. Look at how lybia and egypt have recently had their dictators ousted....the clay is weakening the image.

I dont think we'll be seeing a 5th world power if Daniels prophecy is true, because the rock is going to smash the image at the feet of clay and iron... no more world powers once that image is gone. The only thing that will rule at that time with be Gods Kingdom.

 

[Insight]

its a wonderful thing that we are living in the time of the feet... it means that very soon the rock will be cut from the mountain and it will destroy the image completely.

Daniel 2:31 “You, O king, happened to be beholding, and, look! a certain immense image. That image, which was large and the brightness of which was extraordinary, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was dreadful. 32 As regards that image, its head was of good gold, its breasts and its arms were of silver, its belly and its thighs were of copper, 33 its legs were of iron, its feet were partly of iron and partly of molded clay. 34 You kept on looking until a stone was cut out not by hands, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and of molded clay and crushed them. 35 At that time the iron, the molded clay, the copper, the silver and the gold were, all together, crushed and became like the chaff from the summer threshing floor, and the wind carried them away so that no trace at all was found of them. And as for the stone that struck the image, it became a large mountain and filled the whole earth
This image represents the worlds kingdoms/governments...the feet are partly iron and partly clay because of democracy. The rulerships that used to be solid are weakened with clay because democracy has spread around the world among all the nations and that is why the feet are mixed through with clay. Look at how lybia and egypt have recently had their dictators ousted....the clay is weakening the image.

I dont think we'll be seeing a 5th world power if Daniels prophecy is true, because the rock is going to smash the image at the feet of clay and iron... no more world powers once that image is gone. The only thing that will rule at that time with be Gods Kingdom.

I wouldn't normally do this Pegg - but every now and then the child comes out in me.

Beautifully expressed Pegg

I presume you're talking about the "county" workers. And as the story goes, -- they arrived on the job site, looked in the back of the truck for their shovels, but they weren't there. So they radio'd to dispatch, and dispatch said a truck was on it's way, but in the meantime they'd have to lean on each other. :lol:

Thanks for the laugh

I'm not sure why you want to argue against what Scripture says, i.e., 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE. However, I would greatly appreciate if you'd simply provide an explanation for that sequence. I.e., ... the Clay is separated from the Iron because (fill in the blank) . Otherwise you leave Scripture unanswered, as though you were the Author/Editor instead of GOD.

On with the numbers again.

 

[BibleScribe]

1. The head of gold, was illustrated by a LION; (Single Dictator)
2. The breast and arms of silver, by a BEAR; (Darius and Cyrus)
3. The belly and thighs of brass, by a LEOPARD; and, (Alexandra and his four Generals)
4. The legs, feet, and toes of iron, by a FOURTH BEAST WITH TEN HORNS" (Caesar and the senate)

The dissipation of power from that of Nebuchadnezzar, Medes, Persians, Grecian and the last 2000 years Rome would eventually be given to the peoples of the world.

Courtesy of omegatimes

Once again, I would propose that by inference, you present a 4a/4b scenario, i.e, ~Revived Holy Roman Empire~ (United States of Europe). And this would be fine if Daniel 2:45 maintained that Iron & Iron/Clay association. However, because the Clay is separated from the Iron, it provides a 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE distinction. As such, please explain why the Clay is separated from the Iron, versus your ~associated with the Iron~ interpretation.


BibleScribe

 

[Insight]

Once again, I would propose that by inference, you present a 4a/4b scenario, i.e, ~Revived Holy Roman Empire~ (United States of Europe). And this would be fine if Daniel 2:45 maintained that Iron & Iron/Clay association. However, because the Clay is separated from the Iron, it provides a 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE distinction. As such, please explain why the Clay is separated from the Iron, versus your ~associated with the Iron~ interpretation.


BibleScribe

More numbers...are you a mathematician by chance?

 

[BibleScribe]

More numbers...are you a mathematician by chance?

I'm not sure why you keep ascribing GOD's math to me! If you don't like what GOD's Word says, then blame HIM.


Daniel 2:45 (KJV)

[sup]45[/sup] ... the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold ...


And if it's a "Version" problem, THEN PICK ANOTHER VERSION. However, if it's your disobedience to Scripture, then fix that.



4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE

BibleScribe

.


To All,

I have requested that if "Insight" doesn't like my explanation for the ~4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE sequence, that he provide another explanation. It's a reasonable request that he either explain how he complies with the Daniel 2:45 dictate, -- either by my interpretation or another interpretation. All we need is to appreciate how he complies with Scripture:

Daniel 2:45
[sup]45[/sup] ... the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold ...


BibleScribe

 

[Insight]

I'm not sure why you keep ascribing GOD's math to me! If you don't like what GOD's Word says, then blame HIM.


Daniel 2:45 (KJV)

[sup]45[/sup] ... the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold ...


And if it's a "Version" problem, THEN PICK ANOTHER VERSION. However, if it's your disobedience to Scripture, then fix that.



4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE

BibleScribe

.


To All,

I have requested that if "Insight" doesn't like my explanation for the ~4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE sequence, that he provide another explanation. It's a reasonable request that he either explain how he complies with the Daniel 2:45 dictate, -- either by my interpretation or another interpretation. All we need is to appreciate how he complies with Scripture:

Daniel 2:45
[sup]45[/sup] ... the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold ...


BibleScribe

We have gone over the numbers Biblescribe and everyone bar none could see how they literally backfired on you.

I have explained the 5th phase but we are yet to see your 5th beast.

Insight

to all,

Goodday

 

[Insight]

.

 

[BibleScribe]

I have explained the 5th phase but we are yet to see your 5th beast.

Daniel 2:45
[sup]45[/sup] ... the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold ... -- 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE


I guess you prefer doctrines over Scripture.


BibleScribe

 

[brionne]

To All,

I have requested that if "Insight" doesn't like my explanation for the ~4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE sequence, that he provide another explanation. It's a reasonable request that he either explain how he complies with the Daniel 2:45 dictate, -- either by my interpretation or another interpretation. All we need is to appreciate how he complies with Scripture:

Daniel 2:45
[sup]45[/sup] ... the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold ...


BibleScribe

i dont understand who is disputing what???

why are the orders of the image relevant? and how do they change the fact that we are living in the time of the feet right now??

 

[BibleScribe]

i dont understand who is disputing what???

why are the orders of the image relevant? and how do they change the fact that we are living in the time of the feet right now??

Hi Pegg,

The question is, -- Does GOD provide succinct information for Divine Plan? If we don't like the words HE provides, can we simply ignore or bend those Words? Take for example the Daniel 9:25 text:

King James Version (KJV)

[sup]25[/sup]Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


versus a correct translation:

New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
Know therefore and understand: from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time.


One says there are sixty-nine weeks until the prince, and the other says seven weeks until the prince. And so Newton observed that NO society sums numbers as "seven and sixty-two" and it does "violence" to Scripture. (I.e., a hammer doesn't cost $3 plus $18 [plus tax], -- it costs $21.)

And so in this case the translators thought they KNEW the interpretation, and twisted Scripture to conform with the ~fulfillment~. Unfortunately it is NEITHER the correct text, nor the correct fulfillment.


But back to the case at hand, Daniel 2:45 provides a sequence which DELIBERATELY separates the Clay from the Iron, but inserting the Clay between the Bronze and the Silver. Was this an INSPIRED Text, or do you think that GOD put down random thoughts which are haphazard at best? And if you think they're haphazard thoughts, then are YOU smarter than GOD (because HE might have been ~distracted~, or ~confused~, or ~out-of-sorts~ when HE wrote those Words).


It's your choice. Scripture says 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE, and History substantiates a Fifth "divided" world empire (divided between the 3-superpowers). However, it doesn't match with religious doctrines, so who wins?



BibleScribe

 

[Insight]

Pegg,

You are correct is stating we are living in the time of the feet (iron (Rome) & clay (Seed of Men).

As you would know Dan 2 has been provided through the eyes of Neb whereas Dan 7 is God's view of the Kingdoms of Men (Beasts)

Biblescribe cannot locate a 5th Beast (Empire) and given the time I am able to demonstrate the horns of the 4th beast encompass the feet of iron and clay.

Biblescribe would need to go outside of Dan 7 to support his beliefs, we do not!

Insight

 

[brionne]

Hi Pegg,

The question is, -- Does GOD provide succinct information for Divine Plan? If we don't like the words HE provides, can we simply ignore or bend those Words? Take for example the Daniel 9:25 text:

King James Version (KJV)

[sup]25[/sup]Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


versus a correct translation:

New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
Know therefore and understand: from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time.


One says there are sixty-nine weeks until the prince, and the other says seven weeks until the prince. And so Newton observed that NO society sums numbers as "seven and sixty-two" and it does "violence" to Scripture. (I.e., a hammer doesn't cost $3 plus $18 [plus tax], -- it costs $21.)

in this case its best to know what was written in the hebrew scriptures...the jews translated this to mean seven weeks and sixty two weeks of years....it was two periods of time which made up the whole of sixtynine weeks of years.

But back to the case at hand, Daniel 2:45 provides a sequence which DELIBERATELY separates the Clay from the Iron, but inserting the Clay between the Bronze and the Silver. Was this an INSPIRED Text, or do you think that GOD put down random thoughts which are haphazard at best? And if you think they're haphazard thoughts, then are YOU smarter than GOD (because HE might have been ~distracted~, or ~confused~, or ~out-of-sorts~ when HE wrote those Words).

its a symbolic image, so there is no point thinking that the words themselves can give any clues to what the image means. Even Daniel didnt know what it meant and he wrote it!

its the image itself which is the key to understanding and the angel actually went on to explain what the clay and iron symbolized:

vs 41 “And whereas you beheld the feet and the toes to be partly of molded clay of a potter and partly of iron, the kingdom itself will prove to be divided, but somewhat of the hardness of iron will prove to be in it, forasmuch as you beheld the iron mixed with moist clay. 42 And as for the toes of the feet being partly of iron and partly of molded clay, the kingdom will partly prove to be strong and will partly prove to be fragile. 43 Whereas you beheld iron mixed with moist clay, they will come to be mixed with the offspring of mankind; but they will not prove to be sticking together, this one to that one, just as iron is not mixing with molded clay.

You see, the 4th part of the image was Rome, but no one conquered Rome..unlike the kingdoms before it, it became the Anglo American world power without conquest. And so the feet are really all part of that same part of the image, but in our day, democracy has caused the feet to be divided and the people are not 'sticking together' because rulership is mixed with the offspring of 'mankind'. Anyone can be voted into power in democratic nations, so the iron is not as stong as it was when we lived under the monarchy of England.


So basically, i allow the scripture to interpret itself on this one... Vs 41 explains that the clay is made up of mankind who do not stick together... thats democracy.

 

[Insight]

in this case its best to know what was written in the hebrew scriptures...the jews translated this to mean seven weeks and sixty two weeks of years....it was two periods of time which made up the whole of sixtynine weeks of years.



its a symbolic image, so there is no point thinking that the words themselves can give any clues to what the image means. Even Daniel didnt know what it meant and he wrote it!

its the image itself which is the key to understanding and the angel actually went on to explain what the clay and iron symbolized:

vs 41 “And whereas you beheld the feet and the toes to be partly of molded clay of a potter and partly of iron, the kingdom itself will prove to be divided, but somewhat of the hardness of iron will prove to be in it, forasmuch as you beheld the iron mixed with moist clay. 42 And as for the toes of the feet being partly of iron and partly of molded clay, the kingdom will partly prove to be strong and will partly prove to be fragile. 43 Whereas you beheld iron mixed with moist clay, they will come to be mixed with the offspring of mankind; but they will not prove to be sticking together, this one to that one, just as iron is not mixing with molded clay.

You see, the 4th part of the image was Rome, but no one conquered Rome..unlike the kingdoms before it, it became the Anglo American world power without conquest. And so the feet are really all part of that same part of the image, but in our day, democracy has caused the feet to be divided and the people are not 'sticking together' because rulership is mixed with the offspring of 'mankind'. Anyone can be voted into power in democratic nations, so the iron is not as stong as it was when we lived under the monarchy of England.


So basically, i allow the scripture to interpret itself on this one... Vs 41 explains that the clay is made up of mankind who do not stick together... thats democracy.

We may differ on some things going forward but you grasp the significance of the feet period.

Insight

_______________________________________________________________________________________

This vision in Rev 13 is closely connected with that of Rev 12, which is introductory to what is now revealed.

John, standing upon the sand of the sea, observes a beast arise, in appearance like the four beasts seen by Daniel in similar circumstances (Dan. 7:1,2,3).

This beast has seven heads and ten horns, one of which receives a deadly wound, though, after a time, the deadly wound is healed. It then increases in power and blasphemy and becomes notorious for the persecution of saints. But in spite of its widespread influence and power, a message is received from the Lord proclaiming that it is destined for capture and destruction.

Let us proceed with Rev 13:1NET

"And I stood upon the sand of the sea"

Sea is symbolic of nations (or wicked) Isa 57:20. John's experience was similar to that of Daniel, who likewise saw four beasts arise out of the same sea that were symbolic of the nations (Dan. 7:1,2,3).

Of course these beast systems were destroyed, not fully, by the fourth terrible beast of Rome. Rev 13 reveals a period in Roman History as we progress through the judgements against the Roman Beast you may like to read some of the history found here http://en.wikipedia..../Germanic_Warsn . I hope to provide as many Wiki links as possible to reveal how marvellous the Father and Son have worked amidst the nations.

Of course the Father was in full control of these Judgments as he poured them upon the Roman Beast System.

I hope you enjoy our study.

Insight

 

[brionne]

Pegg,

You are correct is stating we are living in the time of the feet (iron (Rome) & clay (Seed of Men).

As you would know Dan 2 has been provided through the eyes of Neb whereas Dan 7 is God's view of the Kingdoms of Men (Beasts)

Biblescribe cannot locate a 5th Beast (Empire) and given the time I am able to demonstrate the horns of the 4th beast encompass the feet of iron and clay.

Biblescribe would need to go outside of Dan 7 to support his beliefs, we do not!

Insight

yeah im with you on the thinking that the clay feet and the iron part of the image are actually one and the same...so the 4th beast (rome) ends up as a mish mash of divided rulerships rather then one solid empire. Today many nations who were formerly of the british empire are now ruling themselves... and the british empire itself was a spin off from the roman empire which is why so much roman architecture and influence is seen in Brittan and America

 

[BibleScribe]

yeah im with you on the thinking that the clay feet and the iron part of the image are actually one and the same...so the 4th beast (rome) ends up as a mish mash of divided rulerships rather then one solid empire. Today many nations who were formerly of the british empire are now ruling themselves... and the british empire itself was a spin off from the roman empire which is why so much roman architecture and influence is seen in Brittan and America

To All,

An Empire does not consist of architecture, anymore than an individual consists of clothes. An Empire is a unique/distinct authority with unique/distinct concepts. Take for example the Babylonian Empire:

The Babylonian Empire was “the first true metropolis in western history, a business as well as an administrative center,”[1] -- the prototype of governments as we see them to this day. The Babylonians controlled trade and commerce across western Asia, from the Mediterranean Sea to the Persian Gulf, building highways, legislating business, and beautifying the capital.[2]

[1] John B. Christopher and Robert Lee Wolf, A History of Civilization, Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, 1967, p. 35​

[2] Will Durant, Story of Civilization: Part II, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 223-224​

Or consider that the Roman Empire introduced the Representative Republic model, which is still evident in governments today, -- because the Roman Empire was not conquered, but simply fell, and there no new model.

So are we Roman and do we pay taxes to Rome? Or is does another (Italy) occupy that ancient geography? Equally, where Scripture provides a distinct FIFTH "divided" empire of Clay, do the 3-superpowers exhibit the Republic residue of the Iron?


... and to the Republic, for which it stands ...


Where GOD says, come let us reason, (i.e., use intellect), I would encourage each to find tangible (as opposed to allegorical or spiritual) fulfillments for tangible prophecies.




BibleScribe

 

[Insight]

[sub]"And saw a beast rise up out of the sea" Rev 13:1NET

This was the third of the seven developments that John saw. (I will expand on this latter, you may have to remind me (please)

A "beast" is always symbolic of a power. It is for us to search out the matter if we truly are Kings and Priest in training.

See Prov. 28:15; Dan. 7:17.

The word Beast is therion and means wild beast in contrast to zoon, "living creature," translated "beast" in Rev 4:7. If you spend some time in this word you will eventual see the emphasis is in regards to the bestial qualities of the animal; zoon, the life principle. It is interesing that Therion is never used in the LXX for sacrificial animals adding further weight to what John saw was a wild beast arise out of the sea, which is emblematic of the nations (Isa. 57:20; Rev. 17:15).

Insight[/sub]

 

[BibleScribe]

To All,

For some it's under the duress of cross-examination, for others it's under the duress of self-importance. But in either case, if one either can't or won't answer the merit, they ~delve into definitions~. For Cllinton: "It depends on what the meaning of 'is' is." For "Insight", it's what the meaning of "beast" is.

So rather than delve into certainly the precedent of the Lion/Leopard/Bear as in Daniel 7, or the conclusion that the full Revelation 13 beast is the "dreadful" beast from that same Chapter, and drawing some consequence as to the import, alignment, character, or essence of those three and fourth beasts, -- instead we are diverted into some ~theological~ discussion as though jingling keys in front of monkey to draw his attention as to steal his banana.

And you may have guessed, -- YOU"RE the monkey.



So before you fall for this slight-of-hand gimmick, please be aware of these pretenses of ~knowledge~, versus the TRUTH of both Scripture and History.

BibleScribe

 

[Insight]

Hi BibleScribe,

I do hope you have more monkey storey's in your bag of tricks?

Enough with the nonsensical replies let us enter the record to better understand the Apocalypse.

"Having seven heads” Rev 13:1NET

If as we have suggested the Beast is emblematical of nations then the seven heads must therefore represent different forms of government. I hope to cover this later im more detail when I consider Rev 12:13; 17:9,10.

"And ten horns"

These ten horns answer to the ten toes of Nebuchadnezzar's image (Dan 2), or the ten horns of the wild beast seen by Daniel (Dan 7:7), and represent individual nations as presented in Rev 17:12; Jer 48:25 & Dan. 7:24.

The question here is whether History can reveal a time when the united Roman Empire became divided into ten parts? Some may ask how did the present EU become that off strong and weak nations?

Peggs comment about the empire never being destroyed was very insightful as we find the Roman Empire was in fact attack by barbarians who penetrated its borders and settled within its dominions.

These tribes can be ready found by using Wikipedia and other Internet sources.

Such tribes as the Huns, Vandals, Visigoths, Burgundians, Gepidae, Lombards, Franks, Suevi, Alans, Babarians etc. Most of which were Germanic in nature. It is certainly pertinent today that Germany & France play an important role in world politics, and certainly represent the strength (iron) in the EU.

As a side note, I also find it interesting that the number 10 is used. The Bible uses this number to teach completeness, which suggests (to me) the dividing work of the Roman Empire was complete for the purpose which God had intended.