The nations have gone mad...

[BibleScribe]

BibleScribe

Many scholars have put forth varying definiations to these 10 parts (the breaking up of the Roman Empire). Here is one such list: the Huns, Vandals, Visigoths, Burgundians, Gepidae, Lombards, Franks, Suevi, Alans, Babarians.

Insight, I know exactly why many lists are subjective. It's kind of like finding something in the last place your search. It's because you found it, -- not because you searched everywhere it could be. And so we find the liars who stop in their versions of world empires at Assyria and Egypt, not because there were no others, -- i.e., why not go all the way back to Nimrod and the tower of Babel? And the ONLY reason is because they found the magic number, irrespective of TRUE categories, kings, or dominions.

And so your arbitrary ~ten~ appears to be technically incomplete, now supplemented as noted by "--" in green. as follows:


SUCCESSORS OF ROME: GERMANIA, 395-774
http://www.friesian.com/germania.htm

1. Alans
2. -- Alemanni
3. -- Angles
4. -- Danes
5. Huns
6. Babarians
7. -- Barvarians
8. Burgundians
9. Franks
10. Gepidae
11. -- Jutes
12. Lombards
13. -- Norwegians
14. -- Ostrogoths
15. -- Rugians
16. -- Saxons
17. -- Stem Duchies
18. Suevi
19. -- Swedes
20. -- Thuringians
21. Vandals
22. Visigoths


Of course, one of the most brilliant men in the history also evaluated an ~ancient~ fulfillment and refused to publish. -- I would propose because he realized that in ~1730 it still wasn't the time of the end, and the prophecies are NOT approximate to 800 A.D., but rather to some future date, which we can now identify as approximate to 1948.

Daniel 12

[sup]4[/sup] But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”
...
[sup]9[/sup] He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end.



BibleScribe

 

[Insight]

Insight, I know exactly why many lists are subjective. It's kind of like finding something in the last place your search. It's because you found it, -- not because you searched everywhere it could be. And so we find the liars who stop in their versions of world empires at Assyria and Egypt, not because there were no others, -- i.e., why not go all the way back to Nimrod and the tower of Babel? And the ONLY reason is because they found the magic number, irrespective of TRUE categories, kings, or dominions.

And so your arbitrary ~ten~ appears to be technically incomplete, now supplemented as noted by "--" in green. as follows:


SUCCESSORS OF ROME: GERMANIA, 395-774
http://www.friesian.com/germania.htm

1. Alans
2. -- Alemanni
3. -- Angles
4. -- Danes
5. Huns
6. Babarians
7. -- Barvarians
8. Burgundians
9. Franks
10. Gepidae
11. -- Jutes
12. Lombards
13. -- Norwegians
14. -- Ostrogoths
15. -- Rugians
16. -- Saxons
17. -- Stem Duchies
18. Suevi
19. -- Swedes
20. -- Thuringians
21. Vandals
22. Visigoths


Of course, one of the most brilliant men in the history also evaluated an ~ancient~ fulfillment and refused to publish. -- I would propose because he realized that in ~1730 it still wasn't the time of the end, and the prophecies are NOT approximate to 800 A.D., but rather to some future date, which we can now identify as approximate to 1948.

Daniel 12

[sup]4[/sup] But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”
...
[sup]9[/sup] He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end.



BibleScribe

BibleScribe,

I acknowledge you can do anything with numbers

If the horns a defined by the breaking up of the Roman Empire, then the heads of the wild beast must relate to the central government of Rome?

However…

There is a difference between the beast of Rev 13:1, and the "dragon" of Rev 12:3 in that the "dragon," does not appear to be described in this way Rev 12:3 going forward? i.e. no reference to heads or horns? Rev 16:13; 20:2

Any thoughts?

Insight

p.s thanks for the link very informative and certainly sends a strong message!

 

[BibleScribe]

...
If the horns a defined by the breaking up of the Roman Empire, then the heads of the wild beast must relate to the central government of Rome?
...

Insight, the answer is so simple. Revelation 17 is written in the ~future-present-tense~. Thus when Russia attacks Israel, the entire world will marvel at the prophecies of Ezekiel, Daniel, and Revelation:


[sup]9[/sup] This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; [sup]10[/sup]they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. [sup]11[/sup]As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction.


1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
-- 6. Bear, Russia
-- 7. Leopard, China
-- 8. "dreadful", United Nations
-- -- [1] United States
-- -- [2] United Kingdom
-- -- [3] France
-- -- [4] Russia
-- -- [5] Germany
-- -- [6] Japan
-- -- [7] Brazil
-- -- [9] Nigeria
-- -- [10] India
9. Great Stone, Millennial Kingdom
10. New Jerusalem, Eternity


BibleScribe

 

[Insight]

Insight, the answer is so simple. Revelation 17 is written in the ~future-present-tense~. Thus when Russia attacks Israel, the entire world will marvel at the prophecies of Ezekiel, Daniel, and Revelation:

BibleScribe

I agree with this statement but are we not discussing Rev 13?

Insight

 

[veteran]

I see the Rev.17 Scripture which reveals the ten horns (ten kings) will not... come to power until the beast king first comes to power, is still being omitted.

To try and match a list of peoples or nations or kings of history with the ten horns of Revelation and Daniel is to wrongly assume the beast king that ascends out of the bottomless pit per Rev.17 already existed in the past.

 

[BibleScribe]

I agree with this statement but are we not discussing Rev 13?

Insight

I think your doctrines imagine a Revived Roman empires, based upon a faulty perception that Daniel 2 presents a 4a/4b; that Revelation 17 agrees; and as you most recently provided is further (but falsely) valildated by the assignment of 10 Germanic tribes (which are apparently 22) as the 10 horns.

So to confirm history I would not only assert that Rome is DEAD, I would also delineate all the evidence toward that conclusion, -- including discrediting the assignments in Revelation 17.


But if imagination supercedes history, then I defer to you.


BibleScribe

 

[Insight]

I think your doctrines imagine a Revived Roman empires, based upon a faulty perception that Daniel 2 presents a 4a/4b; that Revelation 17 agrees; and as you most recently provided is further (but falsely) valildated by the assignment of 10 Germanic tribes (which are apparently 22) as the 10 horns.

So to confirm history I would not only assert that Rome is DEAD, I would also delineate all the evidence toward that conclusion, -- including discrediting the assignments in Revelation 17.


But if imagination supercedes history, then I defer to you.


BibleScribe

How can Rome be dead when its symbol is in the feet? and what takes place after the 4th terrible beast of Dan 7

If the horns a defined by the breaking up of the Roman Empire, then the heads of the wild beast must relate to the central government of Rome?

However…

There is a difference between the beast of Rev 13:1, and the "dragon" of Rev 12:3 in that the "dragon," does not appear to be described in this way Rev 12:3 going forward? i.e. no reference to heads or horns? Rev 16:13; 20:2

Any thoughts?

Still waiting for your understanding on the dragron? and its apparent change Rev 16:13; 20:2

 

[BibleScribe]

How can Rome be dead when its symbol is in the feet? and what takes place after the 4th terrible beast of Dan 7

Simple: ... and to the REPUBLIC, for which is stands, one nation ...

Are we Roman? Do we send our taxes to Rome? Are all the other nations which follow the Representative Republic form of government Roman? (Please note that because the Roman Empire was not conquered, there was NO new model to follow, thus all the disparate kingdoms, fifedoms, regions, and communities kept the only model available, and thus virtually EVERY modern government still follows that Roman model.)

Still waiting for your understanding on the dragon? and its apparent change Rev 16:13; 20:2

This is YOUR presentation, not mine. As such please allow me to refresh the issues:


So where you started this subject, you've offered to explain the distinction between Revelation 12 and Revelation 13:

"And upon his horns ten crowns" Rev 13:1

Again we see the use of the word Crowns adding further proof of self-government.
You will see from Rev. 12:3, the crowns are placed on the heads of the Dragon, indicating that the prophecy was fulfilled before the nationalities represented by the horns obtained individual independence.


... but have failed to address who the Dragon is, who the seven heads are, who the beast is, who the horns are, and how these transition from one to another:

the dragon has SEVEN crowns on it's HEADS, and the beast has TEN crowns on it's HORNS.

As such, please explain your "lesson" in full compliance with both Scripture and History.



BibleScribe

 

[Insight]

-- 8. "dreadful", United Nations
-- -- [1] United States
-- -- [2] United Kingdom
-- -- [3] France
-- -- [4] Russia
-- -- [5] Germany
-- -- [6] Japan
-- -- [7] Brazil
-- -- [9] Nigeria
-- -- [10] India

BibleScribe

Before we proceed I am curious how these nations entered your list? 162 Member States - UN

I have come to realise you interest in numbers and rather than put up 162 state members could you explain your rational for these 10 nations. I note that I put up 10 tribal states, acknowledging the list of Germanic tribes varied in number and as you rightly stated 22 could be defined.

Are you dogmatic on these 10 nations and if so why?

Insight

 

[BibleScribe]

Before we proceed I am curious how these nations entered your list? 162 Member States - UN

I have come to realise you interest in numbers and rather than put up 162 state members could you explain your rational for these 10 nations. I note that I put up 10 tribal states, acknowledging the list of Germanic tribes varied in number and as you rightly stated 22 could be defined.

Are you dogmatic on these 10 nations and if so why?

Insight

Hi Insight,

I'm not dogmatic regarding the ten, but the U.N. is. Do you disagree with what the U.N. has determined?

“The Road To Reform: Towards A New Clarity,” U.N. Chronicle, UMI, Vol. 30, Issue 4, December 1993, pp. 45-46​

​

 

[Insight]

"And upon his heads the name of blasphemy” Rev 13:1 NET

We establish the heads of the beast relate to its central government which we know was established in Rome. (Dan 2&7)

I asked why the difference between the "beast" of this chapter, and the "dragon" of chapter Rev 12:3:

We established both are described as having "seven heads and ten horns," but interestingly no reference continues to be made to the "dragon," it is no longer described in that way.

We asked the question why; or what happened for it to lose its power?

The reason is one which is answered with history. The "dragon" was shorn of its power as revealed by these symbols in Rev 13, whilst another beast in the West arose to manifest it.

History reveals that Constantine established Constantinople as his capital, the headquarters or "mouth of the dragon" as per Rev 16:13. That mouth as we shall see is essential in understanding latter day fulfilment.

However, though he ruled as sole Emperor over a united Empire, subsequently it became divided into two, with its military headquarters in Constantinople, and its religious centre in Rome.

Coutesy of ExploreTheMed

BibleScribe attached a use link of the barbarians who established their individual nationalities within the borders of the Empire, and in time the military power of Constantinople waned: the "dragon" lost its power over the "horns," with the result that another, papal "wild beast," began to rise in the West.

Upon this beast was found "names of blasphemy." The Greek term (onomata) is in the plural, and is without any definite article. "Names of blasphemy" relate to the various doctrines, practises and titles of Rome.

As a contrast, the Redeemed have "the Father's name" inscribed in their forehead (See Rev 14:1).

Notice how the beast bearing the "names of blasphemy" blaspheme the name of Yahweh (Rev 13:6, 14).

The blasphemy here is claiming to be one thing but evidently revealed to be another (See Rev 2:9); this is clearly the Pope (2 Thess 2:4).

Insight

 

[BibleScribe]

You're just making stuff up.

Let me know when you are willing to answer what you've side-stepped thus far:


who the Dragon is, who the seven heads are, who the beast is, who the horns are, and how these transition from one to another:




BibleScribe

 

[Insight]

"And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the
mouth of a lion" Rev 13:2NET

Interesting that Daniel also saw a leopard, bear, and lion which contributed to the development of the "fourth beast" which he left unnamed (Dan 7:4,5,6,7).

Daniel described how that each beast in turn ate up the one before it, so that the fourth beast comprised a combination of all the previous beasts.

God does not change and we find the unnamed beast of The Apocalypse is similar.

As we shall prove its fulfilment is seen in the papacy.

I enjoy the natural aspects of these prophecies and Yahweh in His wisdom chooses these animals to represent aspects of these empires.

Rome combined the avarice and ferocity of all nations that went before it. The leopard is noted for speed in hunting the prey, and bloodthirstiness and cruelty in killing it; the bear is known for its brute strength, particularly its strong feet and claws; the mouth of the lion speaks of ferocity and power, for with it the beast not only roars its defiance and threats, but also seizes and holds its prey.

Many foolish and unlearned Christians today reject the idea of a Christian apostasy to their destruction they are blinded the to depth and meaning found in the Apocalypse.

Many like BibleScribe desire a sweeping view without looking into the context, purpose and power of these visions. As the saying goes the devil is in the detail.

For instance the "names of blasphemy" upon the heads, reveals the beast is religious in character. But how so? We know from history Rome had lost its military power, however it dominated the West through its religion. The individual nationalities that arose within the borders of the Empire were all converted to "Christianity," and gave support to the bishop of Rome, who assumed the status of pope. Thus the once united Empire of Rome became divided into a military and a religious power: the former with headquarters in Constantinople, and the latter with headquarters in Rome.

 

[BibleScribe]

...
Daniel described how that each beast in turn ate up the one before it, so that the fourth beast comprised a combination of all the previous beasts.
...

LOLOL,

There once was a happy little bird (Babylonian), and along came a cat (Medo/Persian) and ate it (with full digestion). Then came a dog (Grecian) and ate the cat (with full digestion). Then along came a crocodile (Roman) and ate the dog (with full digestion) . When the Fish & Game showed up he killed the crocodile. Then the bird, the cat, and the dog came back to life.


Ummmmm, the problem is, -- that with full digestion, each of the subsequent animals have absorbed the nutrients of the former. So if the bird is part of the cat, and the bird comes back to life, what part of the cat is now absent? The kidney? A leg? Neither, -- it's the brain of the idiot who thinks this is plausible.


So Scripture says:

Daniel 7:11-12
[sup]11[/sup] “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. [sup]12[/sup] As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.



And so we know that these are not consecutive empires, but concurrent. And where Fish & Game killed the crocodile, all three were still in the belly, had not been digested, were pulled out still alive.





-- So many people, have so many doctrinal errors. But Scripture is perfect. --

BibleScribe

 

[Insight]

LOLOL,

There once was a happy little bird (Babylonian), and along came a cat (Medo/Persian) and ate it (with full digestion). Then came a dog (Grecian) and ate the cat (with full digestion). Then along came a crocodile (Roman) and ate the dog (with full digestion) . When the Fish & Game showed up he killed the crocodile. Then the bird, the cat, and the dog came back to life.


Ummmmm, the problem is, -- that with full digestion, each of the subsequent animals have absorbed the nutrients of the former. So if the bird is part of the cat, and the bird comes back to life, what part of the cat is now absent? The kidney? A leg? Neither, -- it's the brain of the idiot who thinks this is plausible.


So Scripture says:

Daniel 7:11-12
[sup]11[/sup] “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. [sup]12[/sup] As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.



And so we know that these are not consecutive empires, but concurrent. And where Fish & Game killed the crocodile, all three were still in the belly, had not been digested, were pulled out still alive.





-- So many people, have so many doctrinal errors. But Scripture is perfect. --

BibleScribe

BibleScribe.

I enjoy reading your colourful analogies and hope they do continue.

When the image stands it will represent all “concurrent empires” however, each of the empires have already been consumed, breaking them into pieces as the fourth and final beast reveals.

This final beast is "strong exceedingly", this empire is as "strong as iron; forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things. . . it shall break in pieces and bruise.

We find this beast devoured the other empires, which is interesting, as its fate will be rewarded in like manner to its actions.

Christ and the saints will "break in pieces and consume (Put to an end) all these kingdoms" Dan 2:44NET

Therefore all other powers will be broken in pieces like the metals of the Image (see Mic 4:13), and will be consumed (See Luke 20:18).

"The nation and the kingdom that will not serve Thee shall perish", Isaiah was moved to proclaim (Isa 60:12. See also Psa. 2:8,9).

All other powers will be incorporated into the Empire of Christ which I am sure you will not deny (See Zech 14:9).

The "first dominion" of that Kingdom will be vested in Israel (Mic 4:7) to which all other powers will be subservient.

To this one cannot disagree though he may do so in vain.

Insight

 

[BibleScribe]

...
When the image stands it will represent all “concurrent empires” ...
...

Hi Insight,

You said regarding the Daniel 7 four beasts:

...
Daniel described how that each beast in turn ate up the one before it, so that the fourth beast comprised a combination of all the previous beasts.
...
Rome combined the avarice and ferocity of all nations that went before it.
...

As such, if these devour the one before it, then they're CONSECUTIVE. And certainly where you apparently assign the Babylonian, Medo/Persian, Grecian, and Roman, in that sequence, history SUBSTANTIATES these as CONSECUTIVE. However, Scripture depicts these as CONCURRENT. So which is it, -- CONSECUTIVE or CONCURRENT?






To All,

History is quite simple. When the Medo/Persian Empire conquered the Babylonian, they did not stop there. They exceeded the Babylonian empire by conquering territory from Afghanistan to parts of Greece, to Lybia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great)

So once again, how is Scripture correct if the three beasts are allowed to live for a season and a time? Each of these empires was predicated upon the previous and thus if one were fully constituted, the others by default CANNOT be fully constituted.

For a comparison using "Insight's" logic, if history presented the 13 Colonies, the 11 Confederate States, the 25 Northern States, and the fifty United States, Insight would arrive to a total of 99. And in this ONLY ONE of these categories can stand at a time.


Who in their right mind could defend such nonsensical math except "insight" and possibly Barak Obama?



BibleScribe

 

[Insight]

Hi Insight,

You said regarding the Daniel 7 four beasts:




As such, if these devour the one before it, then they're CONSECUTIVE. And certainly where you apparently assign the Babylonian, Medo/Persian, Grecian, and Roman, in that sequence, history SUBSTANTIATES these as CONSECUTIVE. However, Scripture depicts these as CONCURRENT. So which is it, -- CONSECUTIVE or CONCURRENT?






To All,

History is quite simple. When the Medo/Persian Empire conquered the Babylonian, they did not stop there. They exceeded the Babylonian empire by conquering territory from Afghanistan to parts of Greece, to Lybia. (http://en.wikipedia....Cyrus_the_Great)

So once again, how is Scripture correct if the three beasts are allowed to live for a season and a time? Each of these empires was predicated upon the previous and thus if one were fully constituted, the others by default CANNOT be fully constituted.

For a comparison using "Insight's" logic, if history presented the 13 Colonies, the 11 Confederate States, the 25 Northern States, and the fifty United States, Insight would arrive to a total of 99. And in this ONLY ONE of these categories can stand at a time.


Who in their right mind could defend such nonsensical math except "insight" and possibly Barak Obama?



BibleScribe

BibleScribe.

Are you speaking of Kingdoms of men or a Kingdom of men?

Many more Kings have reigned of many more empires than those stated in Dan 2&7.

Now if you say Kingdoms your conclusion would be consecutive empires, however concurrent would of course imply a single Kingdom of Men in its various phases.

I accept the latter as truth as per Dan 2:44; 4:15,16; 8:24; 7:21,22,25, 12:1,2; 7:9,18,27,12.

Two Kingdoms are in existence today "The Kingdom of Man vs. The Kingdom of God"

Only two in the Fathers eyes.

Insight

 

[BibleScribe]

Regarding the Daniel 7 FOUR beasts:

Daniel described how that each beast in turn ate up the one before it, ...

To All,

History is quite simple. When the Medo/Persian Empire conquered the Babylonian, they did not stop there. They exceeded the Babylonian empire by conquering territory from Afghanistan to parts of Greece, to Lybia. (http://en.wikipedia....Cyrus_the_Great)

So once again, how is Scripture correct if the three beasts are allowed to live for a season and a time? Each of these empires was predicated upon the previous and thus if one were fully constituted, the others by default CANNOT be fully constituted at the same time.

For a comparison using "Insight's" logic, if history presented the 13 Colonies, the 11 Confederate States, the 25 Northern States, and the fifty United States, -- despite "Insight's" ill advised insistence, ONLY ONE of these categories can stand at a time:

Daniel 7
[sup]11[/sup] “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. [sup]12[/sup] As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.


And where this Scripture cannot apply to the ancient world empires (Babylonian, Medo/Persian, & Greece), there is fufillment in the modern three superpowers (U.S., Russia, & China).


BibleScribe

 

[Insight]

BibleScribe

It appears you have yourself in a bind.

If you read Daniel 7:1-8 you will see that each of the Beasts were conquered by its predecessor, as they were consumed they absorbed some of the characteristics of the previous.

However, the fourth beast is diverse from all the others though incorporating elements of all those that went before it. Clearly these empires were diverse from one another while representing the complete Kingdom of men (Dan 2 image)

In their later day manifestation the image must stand complete and whole and that image has its roots in Europe.

It appears you are trying to force a later day fulfillment of the three empires that were consumed by the fourth. This is without support as the four beasts of Revelation are all based on the fourth terrible beast of Daniel 7.

Insight

 

[[email protected]]

Once again, I would propose that by inference, you present a 4a/4b scenario, i.e, ~Revived Holy Roman Empire~ (United States of Europe). And this would be fine if Daniel 2:45 maintained that Iron & Iron/Clay association. However, because the Clay is separated from the Iron, it provides a 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE distinction. As such, please explain why the Clay is separated from the Iron, versus your ~associated with the Iron~ interpretation.


BibleScribe

That's a nice graphic, albeit incorrect in its interpretation.

We are presently relying upon definitions that were published in the latter part of the nineteenth century and which are woefully inaccurate. Such inaccuracies lead to false doctrine and mislead the saints into error.

The feet of clay pictured in the Biblical text and which is depicted in the graphic refers to the last world empire of man. That last and final empire is to be displaced by the holy mountain which is itself a figure for the political Kingdom of God.

When we try to interpret scripture, it's a good idea to examine the verses to see how they reflect the world in which we live NOT to make them fit into some hundred year old erroneous imagination. The current obsession with Rome as the seat of the anti-Christ's empire is incorrect for THREE reasons. Here's why.

1.) The image of Daniels' text refers to a world empire or world organization. The only organization that fits that description today is the United Nations. Self-styled prophets have been trying to point the finger at Europe and some sort of Italian coalition for decades. Every few years the count has to be revised, altered, and hammered into a new forgery of Biblical scholarship. The European scenario doesn't fit the picture - mostly because it isn't global. The UN is global. Every nation on the planet is a member.

2.) Prophecies of the alliance of anti-Christian and anti-semitic nations opposing Israel name those who will attack the holy land. Few interpreters of scripture have even a basic understanding of history and for that reason their fuminations are in error. Here is the BIG CLUE. The Roman Empire didn't end with the sack of Rome in 476 AD! Look it up!

By the fifth century the Roman Empire had been divided into two sections. The reasons were political, economic and military. The capital of the empire in the west was Rome and the capital of the eastern empire was the city of Byzantium. After the division of the greater empire the western or Roman section collapsed of its own weight. History books record its end in the last quarter of the fifth century BUT the Byzantine Empire continue for another thousand years.

The emperor Constantine the Great (272 AD - 337 AD) used Christianity to validate his grip on the empire. He built a lavish palace in the city of Byzantium. That town was later renamed Constantinople in honor of the emperor. When the western Roman section collapsed, Constantinople became the default capital of the eastern Roman Empire.

The Byzantine Empire eventually withered and died under pressure from the Islamic Ottomans. On May 29, 1453 Constantinople fell to Islamic assault and became the capital of the rising power of the Ottomans. This new empire would last until the twentieth century when it formally ended on July 23, 1923. Five months later (October 29th) the nation of Turkey was proclaimed. It's capital now is Istanbul, formerly Constantinople formerly Byzantium CAPITAL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE. So you see, the Roman Empire and its successors extended well into the twentieth century. No consideration of end times prophecy will EVER approach being correct until it consideres this important factor.

In truth, Muslim prophets and political activists (who are also anti-semitic and anti-Christian) OF OUR TIME and in our day look for a new caliphate (the twelfth) headed by Allah's own man. Mahmoud Ahmedinajad, current president of the Islamic state of Iran, often refers to the coming twelfth caliphate. He is the most well known personality of a Muslim group called THE TWELVERS. Their hope is for a revived WESTERN EMPIRE based on the old Ottoman pattern. Their hope is for a new empire based upon old glory. Having that, the final battle upon Israel will commence.

It is not Rome, Italy that interpreters of Biblical prophecy should consider as a key player in the times of the end. Rather it is Istanbul, Turkey and the revived Roman Empire OF THE EAST that seems to be forming RIGHT BEFORE OUR EYES. If the reader here is truly concerned about future developments he would be wise TO WATCH TURKEY*.

I strongly recommend you read the book THE ISLAMIC ANTICHRIST by Joel Richardson. No scholarly review of end times prophecy and current events can be complete without it.

* Turkey is THE ONLY European country which is actually prospering these days. Read the news and reviews of current events. All of Europe is in danger of economic disaster EXCEPT Turkey! It's the only country in recent months that is looking forward to having its economic credit index RAISED!

In addition, I suggest that you monitor the news and reviews from that nation.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/

The above link is a pro-US publication in English of Turkish events, politics and opinion. It's a good way to keep an eye on what's going on there. We certainly won't get it from US media or from US Christian news sources as they are committed to a century old world view of end times events.

3.) "And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write; These things saith he that hath the sharp two-edged sword:
I know where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s throne is: and thou holdest fast my name, and didst not deny my faith, even in the days of Antipas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwelleth."
- Rev 2:12-13

Read the Word of God. The city of Pergamum (or Pergamon depending upon translation) is in Turkey. I didn't write this folks, it's in the book. Satan's throne is in Turkey. Read it, memorize it, meditate upon it. Those of the saints who DO NOT consider God's word as well as current events are in error. It isn't Italy or the church of Rome we need to be concerned about, it is Pergamum and the Muslim hoards of the anti-Christ.

WATCH TURKEY.