The Nature of God

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StanJ

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דוד חֵן (David) said:
So many people reject the biblical God after reading things they don't like in the bible; then go on still thinking they are believers. Believers in who if not the biblical God?
You would have to ask the Pharisees that question. They rejected the biblical God that was pointed out to them and even caused him to be crucified. Acts 2:23
 

michaelvpardo

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tom55 said:
I know there is nothing I can say that will change your mind on the Trinity. As long as you understand what you believe is heretical.
Hi Tom, You don't have to change my mind about my belief in the "trinity" but you haven't explained what the "church" believes about the trinity other than its a mystery. It may be a mystery to the RCC, but it certainly isn't a mystery to the saints (at least not anymore.) There's nothing heretical about the notion that the fullness of God is found in Jesus Christ, the Bible says so. There's nothing heretical about the notion that the fullness of God is found in eternity, the Bible says so. There's nothing heretical about the notion that the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, also called the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of prophecy, the comforter, the teacher, being the fullness of God interacting with His creation, the Bible doesn't say this directly, but teaches it from chapter 1 of Genesis and forward (sort of like the doctrine of the trinity, but much more in depth.)
Ask a theologian that you trust, there are plenty out there, including some on the radio, that are happy to field questions about God (its what they do.) But, let me understand for sure here what it is you're saying. It sounds like you believe that anyone who understands that the trinity is only One God is a heretic. If you went to a priest and declared that there are 3 gods in One, the priest would probably call you a heretic or sit down and gently try to explain your misunderstanding and perhaps leave you with "the how" as "a mystery" but there's really nothing all that mysterious about it, except the fact that the devil tries to imitate it, e.g. Satan, beast (anti-Christ), false prophet, the unholy trinity. So is it God's will that we remain as stupid and uneducated as those who lived in the dark ages?
Again, with regard to our friend David, I wouldn't be so quick to make judgments about him because the word of God says that there will be 12,000 Jews from each tribe of Israel that will be evangelizing the world during the dark days of the tribulation, that is 12 times 12,000 total Jewish saints proclaiming Christ's 2nd coming. Perhaps David is one of those, but a little immature as would be expected from his age and his comments, or maybe not. I don't know, do you? I don't know what the RCC believes about those passages in the book of the Revelation and in the book of Zechariah which tell us about this end-times Jewish revival, but as the RCC persecuted Jews for nearly 2 millennia, I wouldn't expect a clear and honest interpretation anyway. Having browsed at least a few old books written by Priests and Monks about their own dreams and visions, I'm not inclined to accept very much from the RCC as being doctrinally correct.
9. But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him.''
10. But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
11. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13. These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
16. For "Who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?'' But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:9-16
Have you ever heard this passage preached or taught in a Roman Catholic Church? Not likely. If you have His Spirit, then you should be able to read and understand this last passage without any difficulty and without the need of going to some "authority" to explain it. Its very plain and easy to understand, but again, we speak of spiritual things, things not understood through the spirit of this age. Where's your faith, Tom? Is it in what men teach you through religion, or is it through what God teaches you through His word? I haven't met many active members in the RCC that don't believe that Jesus is God and that He rose again from the dead, and this belief comes from His Spirit, not from a catechism. If you have the teacher, do you Trust Him, or would you say that this or that can't be correct because some priest says so? Remember, even the Pope is just another priest who was popular with the college of cardinals; elections commonly are just popularity contests and the cardinals aren't above such things. But, if you fear being labeled a heretic or being excommunicated, I can understand that. The RCC rules by fear, not by love, that was one of the reasons that I left it behind about 47 years ago. I remember the old Latin masses and I remember the reason that all the children were so quick to genuflect at the sound of the clicker in the hands of one of the nuns, and it wasn't zeal for the Lord (I never met a kid in catechism classes that could read or speak Latin). Things may have changed in the last 47 years, but erasing the abuses doesn't erase the errors. The Lord hasn't given us a spirit of fear, but the Spirit of adoption that cries out to God, "daddy" (abba). Would your daddy throw you out the door for misunderstanding him? Or, as in the dark days of the past, would your daddy torture you with red hot rods, the rack, finger vises, etc. to bring you to recant some statement and "save your soul from eternal damnation" before your execution?
I apologize for going there, as I don't like to participate in RCC bashing. My maternal grandfather was a Roman Catholic, and though he loved his liquor and his beer, he was one of the most godly men I've ever known when it comes to what scripture calls the fruit of the Spirit. I have cousins who have remained practicing Roman Catholics, who are also loving and gentle individuals demonstrating more fruit than some of those "born-again" professors of the faith that I would say are doctrinally sound, but carnal in action. The lessons of life are always more effective in bringing forth spiritual fruit than intellectual gymnastics with the scriptures, but these relatives of mine typically don't understand why their lives feel unfulfilled or incomplete in the midst of the vain pursuits of life, and I believe that this is because they were never taught the magnitude of God's grace in forgiving all their sin at the cross. I've met Roman Catholics who do believe that they have been saved by faith in Christ's atonement, but who struggle with understanding scripture, because they are unable to reconcile what scripture says to what they have been taught. Imagine for a moment that you were born a beautiful bird and with the ability to fly to great heights over the earth, but that someone, wanting to possess you, clipped your feathers so that you couldn't ever fly. Perhaps it would never bother you to not fly as you were never able to do it, but if you knew that you were created for this purpose would you feel cheated or fulfilled?
 

michaelvpardo

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tom55 said:
I sincerely apologize. I did say mid 1800's and I don't know why. I made a honest mistake when I wrote that date.I have read that they started in the 1700's with some historians sheepishly suggesting (with great reservation) possibly in the 1300's. There is zero, none nada' zilch evidence they were formed prior to the 1300's. Even you can't give historical evidence for that and you seem to believe it.
I believe in God and I believe in His word and unlike many protestants I believe that the great whore of Babylon is free-masonry (or the ancient mystery of iniquity reflected in that name,) not the Catholic Church, though I recall Pope John Paul giving permission to Roman Catholics to join Masonic lodges.
As far as evidence, you have to know where to look. A historian is one who studies history. Someone who studies free-mason history is still a historian and I've given you at least one historical book written by a respected free-mason. Historians study documents that they can find relative or pertinent to history. When it comes to secret societies, you just aren't going to find a lot of documents lying about (though you might at the Vatican if you had access and you certainly would if you had access to one of the larger Masonic libraries). I stumbled across some of the historical evidence for early free-masonry while reading books about other subjects. One of the most interesting books that I've read of a non fictional nature is a relatively recent book titled "the sign and the seal" which is actually about one man's search for the missing ark of the covenant described in the Bible. The author has written a number of books which I would say do nothing to enhance his credibility, but he provides photographs from various ancient churches and cathedrals examining the symbolism expressed in the sculpted and painted images, and very good source information. He was actually commissioned by the former "emperor" of Ethiopia to create a coffee table book about the sights of Ethiopia and this lead him to an interest in Ethiopian lore.
While the book is not about free-masonry or guild masonry, the author follows a trail of clues left in images and sculpture, popular books and legends, which follow the Ark of the covenant to the isle of elephantine (in the Nile river) where a replica of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem was found. Since the temple was built to house the ark of the covenant, its curious that anyone would build another temple without having a need for it. He then continues to follow the trail up the Nile to a lake where there is a small colony of "priests" that still practice ancient Jewish blood sacrifices and claimed to have at one time possessed the Ark of the covenant. Finally, the book goes on to describe the final resting place of the Ark as being in a church named "Church of our Lady Mary of Zion" located in the town of Axum in Ethiopia. Ethiopian history, which tends to be sketchy and not entirely accurate, includes a long history of tribal warfare between Ethiopian Christians and Ethiopian Jews (Falashas) over possession of the Ark. Modern Ethiopian Christians celebrate the tablets of the covenant on a special occasion where they tie wood replicas of the tablets of the commandments upon their heads while they sing and dance in their festival (not something you would generally expect of Christians.) They use musical instruments of ancient Jewish design in their festivals, and the actual "attendant" of the ark is a priest who is the only person alive that is allowed to enter into the sanctuary for it, hence it remains hidden from the world and beyond the inspection of doubters.
The author examines the efforts of the Knights Templar who while protecting the pilgrim's trail to Jerusalem somehow managed to do some major excavation beneath the temple mount searching for something of value. He relates this search to the grail legend and rather than come up with a gnostic heresy about the Merovingian kings, he finds an early version of the grail legend that points to something else, which he argues is the ark of the covenant and goes on to explain how something referred to as a "stone cutter" was believed to be part of the contents of the ark and something desirable to "builders". He links this search to Axum with the Ethiopian accounts of red haired European visitors that "assisted" the locals in the building of some impressive churches cut out of the bedrock and who tried to take their greatest treasure from them, the ark of the covenant. I can't lay out the contents of an entire book in this post, but the book was well worth reading and gave me my first look at the industry of the Knights Templar and what became of them. Free-Masonry may not have come directly out of the Knights Templar, but when the Pope condemned them for heresy and blasphemies, some escaped the fire to find refuge in Scotland as well as in some other European countries and coincidentally secret societies emerged from those places with related practices and beliefs.
A man called Robert the Bruce in Scotland was one such king who gave sanctuary to one or more of the Knights Templar. Robert the first, king of scots, is claimed by the Masons as one of their own, and the Free-Masons of Scotland have minutes for meetings going back to at least the 1400s. The link to older mystery religions is mainly one of symbols used both by modern Masons and by ancient Roman guild members some of which are displayed in the ruins of Pompeii. It is Masonic legend that places their lineage back to King Hiram (hired by Solomon to assist with the building of the temple) and to older traditions in Egypt and elsewhere. Since Masonic belief is rooted entirely in symbolism rather than content, they have every right to claim continuity to these ancient practices, or at least as much right to do so as gentiles who claim to be part of what was once a Jewish sect. If you read through the book of the Acts of the Apostles, you see a first century church that barely resembles any modern church in regard to what is called orthopraxy, yet we call ourselves Christian for our belief. Satan's lies are as old as the garden of Eden, so why wouldn't there be continuity over time to them? Nearly every modern religion outside of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, has as its goal, immortality or godlike quality through some practice which requires a "genuine" knowledge of good and evil. I don't believe in the evolution of cultural parallelism any more than I believe in evolution, not because its impossible, but because it ignores written accounts and verbal accounts of shared events. Some of the most amazing archeological discoveries have been the result of chasing cultural "legends" such as the city of Troy. I don't believe anyone doubts its existence now, but prior to one archeologist's interest in legend, that was all it was. People write history because they want to be remembered. The truth of history is colored by the vanity of the authors, but even farcical accounts may have some basis in fact and often do (consider Santa Claus or if you'd like, St. Patrick, the man who chased the snakes out of Ireland.)
I'm loosing interest in this rabbit trail very rapidly and more than a little tired, so I'll cut this off here. What can be known about Free-Masonry in the public domain is limited by the ability of men to keep secrets and with some men keeping secrets is a matter of pride, so believe what you will and I'll trust my research.
 

tom55

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Sep 9, 2013
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Michael V Pardo said:
I believe in God and I believe in His word and unlike many protestants I believe that the great whore of Babylon is free-masonry (or the ancient mystery of iniquity reflected in that name,) not the Catholic Church, though I recall Pope John Paul giving permission to Roman Catholics to join Masonic lodges.
As far as evidence, you have to know where to look. A historian is one who studies history. Someone who studies free-mason history is still a historian and I've given you at least one historical book written by a respected free-mason. Historians study documents that they can find relative or pertinent to history. When it comes to secret societies, you just aren't going to find a lot of documents lying about (though you might at the Vatican if you had access and you certainly would if you had access to one of the larger Masonic libraries). I stumbled across some of the historical evidence for early free-masonry while reading books about other subjects. One of the most interesting books that I've read of a non fictional nature is a relatively recent book titled "the sign and the seal" which is actually about one man's search for the missing ark of the covenant described in the Bible. The author has written a number of books which I would say do nothing to enhance his credibility, but he provides photographs from various ancient churches and cathedrals examining the symbolism expressed in the sculpted and painted images, and very good source information. He was actually commissioned by the former "emperor" of Ethiopia to create a coffee table book about the sights of Ethiopia and this lead him to an interest in Ethiopian lore.
While the book is not about free-masonry or guild masonry, the author follows a trail of clues left in images and sculpture, popular books and legends, which follow the Ark of the covenant to the isle of elephantine (in the Nile river) where a replica of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem was found. Since the temple was built to house the ark of the covenant, its curious that anyone would build another temple without having a need for it. He then continues to follow the trail up the Nile to a lake where there is a small colony of "priests" that still practice ancient Jewish blood sacrifices and claimed to have at one time possessed the Ark of the covenant. Finally, the book goes on to describe the final resting place of the Ark as being in a church named "Church of our Lady Mary of Zion" located in the town of Axum in Ethiopia. Ethiopian history, which tends to be sketchy and not entirely accurate, includes a long history of tribal warfare between Ethiopian Christians and Ethiopian Jews (Falashas) over possession of the Ark. Modern Ethiopian Christians celebrate the tablets of the covenant on a special occasion where they tie wood replicas of the tablets of the commandments upon their heads while they sing and dance in their festival (not something you would generally expect of Christians.) They use musical instruments of ancient Jewish design in their festivals, and the actual "attendant" of the ark is a priest who is the only person alive that is allowed to enter into the sanctuary for it, hence it remains hidden from the world and beyond the inspection of doubters.
The author examines the efforts of the Knights Templar who while protecting the pilgrim's trail to Jerusalem somehow managed to do some major excavation beneath the temple mount searching for something of value. He relates this search to the grail legend and rather than come up with a gnostic heresy about the Merovingian kings, he finds an early version of the grail legend that points to something else, which he argues is the ark of the covenant and goes on to explain how something referred to as a "stone cutter" was believed to be part of the contents of the ark and something desirable to "builders". He links this search to Axum with the Ethiopian accounts of red haired European visitors that "assisted" the locals in the building of some impressive churches cut out of the bedrock and who tried to take their greatest treasure from them, the ark of the covenant. I can't lay out the contents of an entire book in this post, but the book was well worth reading and gave me my first look at the industry of the Knights Templar and what became of them. Free-Masonry may not have come directly out of the Knights Templar, but when the Pope condemned them for heresy and blasphemies, some escaped the fire to find refuge in Scotland as well as in some other European countries and coincidentally secret societies emerged from those places with related practices and beliefs.
A man called Robert the Bruce in Scotland was one such king who gave sanctuary to one or more of the Knights Templar. Robert the first, king of scots, is claimed by the Masons as one of their own, and the Free-Masons of Scotland have minutes for meetings going back to at least the 1400s. The link to older mystery religions is mainly one of symbols used both by modern Masons and by ancient Roman guild members some of which are displayed in the ruins of Pompeii. It is Masonic legend that places their lineage back to King Hiram (hired by Solomon to assist with the building of the temple) and to older traditions in Egypt and elsewhere. Since Masonic belief is rooted entirely in symbolism rather than content, they have every right to claim continuity to these ancient practices, or at least as much right to do so as gentiles who claim to be part of what was once a Jewish sect. If you read through the book of the Acts of the Apostles, you see a first century church that barely resembles any modern church in regard to what is called orthopraxy, yet we call ourselves Christian for our belief. Satan's lies are as old as the garden of Eden, so why wouldn't there be continuity over time to them? Nearly every modern religion outside of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, has as its goal, immortality or godlike quality through some practice which requires a "genuine" knowledge of good and evil. I don't believe in the evolution of cultural parallelism any more than I believe in evolution, not because its impossible, but because it ignores written accounts and verbal accounts of shared events. Some of the most amazing archeological discoveries have been the result of chasing cultural "legends" such as the city of Troy. I don't believe anyone doubts its existence now, but prior to one archeologist's interest in legend, that was all it was. People write history because they want to be remembered. The truth of history is colored by the vanity of the authors, but even farcical accounts may have some basis in fact and often do (consider Santa Claus or if you'd like, St. Patrick, the man who chased the snakes out of Ireland.)
I'm loosing interest in this rabbit trail very rapidly and more than a little tired, so I'll cut this off here. What can be known about Free-Masonry in the public domain is limited by the ability of men to keep secrets and with some men keeping secrets is a matter of pride, so believe what you will and I'll trust my research.
I appreciate your patience with me. I just have one more question for you if you would indulge me. Based on YOUR knowledge of the Free Masons would you agree or disagree with the following statement about the Free Masons?

The language and symbols used in the fraternity's rituals come from the Middle Ages therefore it is a widely accepted theory among Masonic scholars that Free Masons arose from the stonemasons' guilds during the Middle Ages. No one knows with certainty how or when the Masonic Fraternity was formed. The oldest document that makes any reference to Masons is in the Regius Poem (1390AD) which was a copy of an earlier work.

Furthermore the first-known use of the word Freemasons (in the form Free Masons) occurs in the City of London letter (1376AD) though the word is in fact deleted in favor of Mason. In 1717, four lodges in London formed the first Grand Lodge of England, and records from that point on are more complete.

Respectfully: Tom
 

tom55

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Michael V Pardo said:
Hi Tom, You don't have to change my mind about my belief in the "trinity" but you haven't explained what the "church" believes about the trinity other than its a mystery. It may be a mystery to the RCC, but it certainly isn't a mystery to the saints (at least not anymore.) There's nothing heretical about the notion that the fullness of God is found in Jesus Christ, the Bible says so. There's nothing heretical about the notion that the fullness of God is found in eternity, the Bible says so. There's nothing heretical about the notion that the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, also called the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of prophecy, the comforter, the teacher, being the fullness of God interacting with His creation, the Bible doesn't say this directly, but teaches it from chapter 1 of Genesis and forward (sort of like the doctrine of the trinity, but much more in depth.)
Ask a theologian that you trust, there are plenty out there, including some on the radio, that are happy to field questions about God (its what they do.) But, let me understand for sure here what it is you're saying. It sounds like you believe that anyone who understands that the trinity is only One God is a heretic. If you went to a priest and declared that there are 3 gods in One, the priest would probably call you a heretic or sit down and gently try to explain your misunderstanding and perhaps leave you with "the how" as "a mystery" but there's really nothing all that mysterious about it, except the fact that the devil tries to imitate it, e.g. Satan, beast (anti-Christ), false prophet, the unholy trinity. So is it God's will that we remain as stupid and uneducated as those who lived in the dark ages?
Again, with regard to our friend David, I wouldn't be so quick to make judgments about him because the word of God says that there will be 12,000 Jews from each tribe of Israel that will be evangelizing the world during the dark days of the tribulation, that is 12 times 12,000 total Jewish saints proclaiming Christ's 2nd coming. Perhaps David is one of those, but a little immature as would be expected from his age and his comments, or maybe not. I don't know, do you? I don't know what the RCC believes about those passages in the book of the Revelation and in the book of Zechariah which tell us about this end-times Jewish revival, but as the RCC persecuted Jews for nearly 2 millennia, I wouldn't expect a clear and honest interpretation anyway. Having browsed at least a few old books written by Priests and Monks about their own dreams and visions, I'm not inclined to accept very much from the RCC as being doctrinally correct.
9. But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him.''
10. But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
11. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13. These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
16. For "Who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?'' But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:9-16
Have you ever heard this passage preached or taught in a Roman Catholic Church? Not likely. If you have His Spirit, then you should be able to read and understand this last passage without any difficulty and without the need of going to some "authority" to explain it. Its very plain and easy to understand, but again, we speak of spiritual things, things not understood through the spirit of this age. Where's your faith, Tom? Is it in what men teach you through religion, or is it through what God teaches you through His word? I haven't met many active members in the RCC that don't believe that Jesus is God and that He rose again from the dead, and this belief comes from His Spirit, not from a catechism. If you have the teacher, do you Trust Him, or would you say that this or that can't be correct because some priest says so? Remember, even the Pope is just another priest who was popular with the college of cardinals; elections commonly are just popularity contests and the cardinals aren't above such things. But, if you fear being labeled a heretic or being excommunicated, I can understand that. The RCC rules by fear, not by love, that was one of the reasons that I left it behind about 47 years ago. I remember the old Latin masses and I remember the reason that all the children were so quick to genuflect at the sound of the clicker in the hands of one of the nuns, and it wasn't zeal for the Lord (I never met a kid in catechism classes that could read or speak Latin). Things may have changed in the last 47 years, but erasing the abuses doesn't erase the errors. The Lord hasn't given us a spirit of fear, but the Spirit of adoption that cries out to God, "daddy" (abba). Would your daddy throw you out the door for misunderstanding him? Or, as in the dark days of the past, would your daddy torture you with red hot rods, the rack, finger vises, etc. to bring you to recant some statement and "save your soul from eternal damnation" before your execution?
I apologize for going there, as I don't like to participate in RCC bashing. My maternal grandfather was a Roman Catholic, and though he loved his liquor and his beer, he was one of the most godly men I've ever known when it comes to what scripture calls the fruit of the Spirit. I have cousins who have remained practicing Roman Catholics, who are also loving and gentle individuals demonstrating more fruit than some of those "born-again" professors of the faith that I would say are doctrinally sound, but carnal in action. The lessons of life are always more effective in bringing forth spiritual fruit than intellectual gymnastics with the scriptures, but these relatives of mine typically don't understand why their lives feel unfulfilled or incomplete in the midst of the vain pursuits of life, and I believe that this is because they were never taught the magnitude of God's grace in forgiving all their sin at the cross. I've met Roman Catholics who do believe that they have been saved by faith in Christ's atonement, but who struggle with understanding scripture, because they are unable to reconcile what scripture says to what they have been taught. Imagine for a moment that you were born a beautiful bird and with the ability to fly to great heights over the earth, but that someone, wanting to possess you, clipped your feathers so that you couldn't ever fly. Perhaps it would never bother you to not fly as you were never able to do it, but if you knew that you were created for this purpose would you feel cheated or fulfilled?
Where's your faith, Tom? Is it in what men teach you through religion, or is it through what God teaches you through His word?

The Holy Spirit gave us scripture (Gods word) via the men of the Old and New Testaments. So now you and I have to decide who we are going to put our faith in to properly interpret that word from God. I have chosen the men of the Catholic Church who I believe have been inspired by the Holy Spirit. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

What men or man have you chosen?

Do you accept or reject the idea of the traditions of the Catholic Church??

Heretical defined: holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted. The Trinity is generally accepted by the MAJORITY of Christians therefor you belief in the Trinity is heretical. That my friend is a basic fact.
 

tom55

Love your neighbor as yourself
Sep 9, 2013
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דוד חֵן (David) said:
Everyone is a messenger and everyone with God's SPIRIT is empowered. Except those without God's spirit.
Where in the bible does it say that "everyone is a messenger"?

Do you think the Mormons or the Muslims have God's Spirit?
 

TopherNelson

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tom55 said:
Where in the bible does it say that "everyone is a messenger"?

Do you think the Mormons or the Muslims have God's Spirit?
Do not put words into my mouth. I did not say muslims and mormons have God's spirit. The spirit of the Lord is the spirit of truth. False christians don't have it, they do not know the truth.
 

tom55

Love your neighbor as yourself
Sep 9, 2013
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דוד חֵן (David) said:
Do not put words into my mouth. I did not say muslims and mormons have God's spirit. The spirit of the Lord is the spirit of truth. False christians don't have it, they do not know the truth.
I asked you a question. That my friend is not putting words in your mouth.

Can you answer my question? (both of them)
 

michaelvpardo

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tom55 said:
I appreciate your patience with me. I just have one more question for you if you would indulge me. Based on YOUR knowledge of the Free Masons would you agree or disagree with the following statement about the Free Masons?

The language and symbols used in the fraternity's rituals come from the Middle Ages therefore it is a widely accepted theory among Masonic scholars that Free Masons arose from the stonemasons' guilds during the Middle Ages. No one knows with certainty how or when the Masonic Fraternity was formed. The oldest document that makes any reference to Masons is in the Regius Poem (1390AD) which was a copy of an earlier work.

Furthermore the first-known use of the word Freemasons (in the form Free Masons) occurs in the City of London letter (1376AD) though the word is in fact deleted in favor of Mason. In 1717, four lodges in London formed the first Grand Lodge of England, and records from that point on are more complete.

Respectfully: Tom
The reason that I believe Free-Masonry dates back to Rome or possibly earlier, is that some of the symbols that they use are of Roman and pre-Roman origin and I didn't arrive at this conclusion on my own, but encountered much of this information just by browsing Masonic web sites. One problem with reading Masonic materials is that it is written by people who have no problem lying (its kind of necessary in order to keep secrets), so its hard to tell when a liar is telling the truth. Their historians do make the claim that they arose out of guild Masonry, and even after the beginning of what is now called Free-Masonry, Masonic historians distinguish between operative Free-Masons and speculative Free-Masons. The operative Free-Masons having been almost entirely composed of Architects and what we now call civil engineers. One of the books that I mentioned before goes into some detail about this and mentions the times when Free-Masonry was opened up to anyone that met their criteria in terms of belief, but I don't recall when. I've never had a particularly good memory and after my last surgery the anesthesia seems to have liberated large chunks of time from my consciousness. While its good to know something of the adversary's tactics and methods, I prefer to study the word of God and the creation that He made for us.
The Free-Mason name may not have been used prior to these early documents in the 1400s and 1300s, but what I'm suggesting is that their beliefs and practices are derived from ancient beliefs and practices (sort of like Free-Masonry by another name.) After all, the first Christians didn't call themselves anything other than followers of the way, but the world gave them the name "Christians" (which you find in the book of acts.)
If you believe their own sales pitch, the Free-Masons have an agenda almost identical to Christians, desiring the institution of a world wide society at peace, held together by brotherly love (similar to what political "progressives" have as their goal). However, their means of arriving at such goals are entirely carnal. Their brand of righteousness is self righteousness and strictly for public consumption. Unfortunately, more than a few "former" Free-Masons have made claims to all manner of evil practice at the higher levels of Masonry which may or may not be true. I recall that when I read about the original Knights Templars, one of the accusations against them was that at some point they were expected to spit on a cross, and I've heard an identical accusation against Modern Free-Masons (which is supposedly to demonstrate their disregard for the person of Christ and their belief that the symbolism of the cross is the only thing of importance.) According to some, the test of spitting on the cross and denying Christ, has no wrong response. Refusing to do so is congratulated and doing so is congratulated, but those that refuse cease to "progress" to a higher Masonic level (Free-Mason's are duplicitous even with their own membership.)
Even if these more infamous accusations are false, the denial of Christ's divinity is well documented and anything which denies Christ is anti-Christ and of the adversary.
 

tom55

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Michael V Pardo said:
The reason that I believe Free-Masonry dates back to Rome or possibly earlier, is that some of the symbols that they use are of Roman and pre-Roman origin and I didn't arrive at this conclusion on my own, but encountered much of this information just by browsing Masonic web sites. One problem with reading Masonic materials is that it is written by people who have no problem lying (its kind of necessary in order to keep secrets), so its hard to tell when a liar is telling the truth. Their historians do make the claim that they arose out of guild Masonry, and even after the beginning of what is now called Free-Masonry, Masonic historians distinguish between operative Free-Masons and speculative Free-Masons. The operative Free-Masons having been almost entirely composed of Architects and what we now call civil engineers. One of the books that I mentioned before goes into some detail about this and mentions the times when Free-Masonry was opened up to anyone that met their criteria in terms of belief, but I don't recall when. I've never had a particularly good memory and after my last surgery the anesthesia seems to have liberated large chunks of time from my consciousness. While its good to know something of the adversary's tactics and methods, I prefer to study the word of God and the creation that He made for us.
The Free-Mason name may not have been used prior to these early documents in the 1400s and 1300s, but what I'm suggesting is that their beliefs and practices are derived from ancient beliefs and practices (sort of like Free-Masonry by another name.) After all, the first Christians didn't call themselves anything other than followers of the way, but the world gave them the name "Christians" (which you find in the book of acts.)
If you believe their own sales pitch, the Free-Masons have an agenda almost identical to Christians, desiring the institution of a world wide society at peace, held together by brotherly love (similar to what political "progressives" have as their goal). However, their means of arriving at such goals are entirely carnal. Their brand of righteousness is self righteousness and strictly for public consumption. Unfortunately, more than a few "former" Free-Masons have made claims to all manner of evil practice at the higher levels of Masonry which may or may not be true. I recall that when I read about the original Knights Templars, one of the accusations against them was that at some point they were expected to spit on a cross, and I've heard an identical accusation against Modern Free-Masons (which is supposedly to demonstrate their disregard for the person of Christ and their belief that the symbolism of the cross is the only thing of importance.) According to some, the test of spitting on the cross and denying Christ, has no wrong response. Refusing to do so is congratulated and doing so is congratulated, but those that refuse cease to "progress" to a higher Masonic level (Free-Mason's are duplicitous even with their own membership.)
Even if these more infamous accusations are false, the denial of Christ's divinity is well documented and anything which denies Christ is anti-Christ and of the adversary.
Such a long answer so I am not sure really what your answer is <_<

It seems you believe Free-Masonry dates back to Rome or possibly earlier, however, I am not sure what you mean by "dates back to Rome"? The Roman Empire started about 30 years BC and ended 1400 years later so that is a wide time frame!!

I would contend that just because "some of the symbols that they use are of Roman and pre-Roman origin" does NOT mean they (Free Masons) started 2,000 years ago; they just borrowed some of their symbols. That is a logical deduction.

You said that you "didn't arrive at this conclusion on my own, but encountered much of this information just by browsing Masonic web sites."

My post (#44) is what the Free Masons say about themselves that I got off of their own websites. Their own history supports my earlier statement. They, at the earliest, began in the 1300's. NOT 2,000+ years ago.

Thank you for your time.
 

michaelvpardo

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tom55 said:
What men or man have you chosen?
Jesus Christ.
I received His Spirit at the age of 39 when I finally understood what the gospel actually is and entrusted Jesus with my salvation. I read scripture from the time I started in Catechism as a young child, but without being able to understand much at all, and when I received His Spirit He opened my understanding. The only men that I've learned from have been those bible teachers whose words the Spirit of truth verifies, and when they are in error, the Holy Spirit reveals that as well (though it sometimes takes a while, because scripture admonishes us to give others the benefit of the doubt.)
 

michaelvpardo

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tom55 said:
Where's your faith, Tom? Is it in what men teach you through religion, or is it through what God teaches you through His word?

The Holy Spirit gave us scripture (Gods word) via the men of the Old and New Testaments. So now you and I have to decide who we are going to put our faith in to properly interpret that word from God. I have chosen the men of the Catholic Church who I believe have been inspired by the Holy Spirit. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

What men or man have you chosen?

Do you accept or reject the idea of the traditions of the Catholic Church??

Heretical defined: holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted. The Trinity is generally accepted by the MAJORITY of Christians therefor you belief in the Trinity is heretical. That my friend is a basic fact.
The more faithful part of Israel were the two tribes of Benjamin and Judah (in that they continued in temple worship and didn't go after foreign gods until their leaders brought them in). They were taken into captivity by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, but the other 10 tribes had been removed through captivity well before them (the ones who worshiped the image of the calf that Jeroboam set up and also ran after the Baals and Ashtoreths and other gods of the lands.) Those that believed and attempted to keep the law of Moses were most definitely in the minority. Those that received the gospel in its primitive form (prior to Christ's birth) were even fewer. All things considered, I'd rather be a Son of God who is labeled a heretic, than be self deceived and condemned in self righteousness. If the majority of people are just stupid or ignorant, should we be stupid and ignorant?
 

michaelvpardo

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tom55 said:
Such a long answer so I am not sure really what your answer is <_<

My post (#44) is what the Free Masons say about themselves that I got off of their own websites. Their own history supports my earlier statement. They, at the earliest, began in the 1300's. NOT 2,000+ years ago.

Thank you for your time.
Some Free-Masons are as lazy in their study as most "Christians" are. My information is from their own books, but Free-Masons are inclined to disown authors when the things written tend to put them in a less honorable light; they are children of pride.
 

StanJ

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Michael V Pardo said:
Some Free-Masons are as lazy in their study as most "Christians" are. My information is from their own books, but Free-Masons are inclined to disown authors when the things written tend to put them in a less honorable light; they are children of pride.
The following website tends to support your opinion but I don't think it is something that should be pursued seeing as though it's off topic and definitely not Christian.

http://thecraftandthecross.com/index.php?p=1_15_When-did-freemasonry-start
 

tom55

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Michael V Pardo said:
Jesus Christ.
I received His Spirit at the age of 39 when I finally understood what the gospel actually is and entrusted Jesus with my salvation. I read scripture from the time I started in Catechism as a young child, but without being able to understand much at all, and when I received His Spirit He opened my understanding. The only men that I've learned from have been those bible teachers whose words the Spirit of truth verifies, and when they are in error, the Holy Spirit reveals that as well (though it sometimes takes a while, because scripture admonishes us to give others the benefit of the doubt.)
You gave two different answers to my question, "What men or man have you chosen?"

You say "Jesus Christ" and then you go on to say you have learned from men that have been bible teachers whose words the Spirit of truth verifies. I actually agree with you. Since Jesus did not actually write anything down himself we have to rely on the men who walked and talked with him to tell us what he said AND what he meant when he said it. Men inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Who are those men YOU have learned from that are bible teachers? I have chosen the Apostolic Fathers.

You feel you received the Holy Spirit at the age of 39 and that is when you finally understood what the gospel actually is. What about the men who developed the practices/beliefs of the Mormon or Baptist or Catholic or Muslim faith? They also feel like they received the Holy Spirit (just like you) and they finally understood what the gospel actually is (just like you). Is their belief wrong and yours right? Is YOUR Holy Spirit awakening more valid than their Holy Spirit awakening? How can we know if YOU are in error or if THEY are in error since all of you teach different things allegedly inspired by the SAME Holy Spirit?

You did not even attempt to answer my other question:

Do you accept or reject the idea of the traditions of the Catholic Church??" Its not a trick question and seems very simple to answer. Either you do or you don't.
 

tom55

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Michael V Pardo said:
Some Free-Masons are as lazy in their study as most "Christians" are. My information is from their own books, but Free-Masons are inclined to disown authors when the things written tend to put them in a less honorable light; they are children of pride.
The Free Masons own their own web sites do NOT agree with your belief on their own history.

The book you recommended The symbolism of Freemasonry illustrating and Explaining Its Science and Philosophy, Its Legends, Myths and Symbols does NOT support your ancient belief on their history and if it did then the Free Masons would quote from that book on their web sites. They in fact DO NOT quote from the book because there is nothing to quote showing an ancient history of Free Masons.

If you read the preface from the book you will see the qualifiers Mackey puts on this "historical" book you speak so highly of.
 

michaelvpardo

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StanJ said:
The following website tends to support your opinion but I don't think it is something that should be pursued seeing as though it's off topic and definitely not Christian.

http://thecraftandthecross.com/index.php?p=1_15_When-did-freemasonry-start
Thank you Stan for your graciousness and I apologize for all the times that I've been discourteous to you. I'm an incredibly sinful man and long for the day when I'm entirely free of this flesh. I also agree with the last comment and really have no great desire to look deeper into the topic, except perhaps to verify some things. I hope to wind up my postings on this site shortly. I hadn't intended to go beyond seven hundred and seventy seven posts (I like the number) and I'm nearly finished with my ministry (if you can call it that.) I'm anticipating a terrible war starting soon and waged upon U.S. soil that will put a complete end to the nation of my birth, and even if this doesn't happen I've been desiring to move to Europe or the middle east so that I can spend my last days investigating ancient places and visit the lands of my ancestors. Take care and may God bless you greatly in your ministry.
 

michaelvpardo

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tom55 said:
The Free Masons own their own web sites do NOT agree with your belief on their own history.

The book you recommended The symbolism of Freemasonry illustrating and Explaining Its Science and Philosophy, Its Legends, Myths and Symbols does NOT support your ancient belief on their history and if it did then the Free Masons would quote from that book on their web sites. They in fact DO NOT quote from the book because there is nothing to quote showing an ancient history of Free Masons.

If you read the preface from the book you will see the qualifiers Mackey puts on this "historical" book you speak so highly of.
No, but the 2nd book I mentioned absolutely does.
 

michaelvpardo

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tom55 said:
You gave two different answers to my question, "What men or man have you chosen?"

Do you accept or reject the idea of the traditions of the Catholic Church??" Its not a trick question and seems very simple to answer. Either you do or you don't.
Jesus (Yah-shua) by His Spirit (Spirit speaks to spirit as flesh speaks to flesh.)

and

Absolutely not if by Catholic church you are referring to Rome.