The New Birth: Born Again
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Keeping an open is key, I think. Some people decide it can't be true because they haven't experienced it; other people decide it is true just because someone says it. Both are basing their decisons on a lack of evidence.
So I say, "Don't take my word for it. Don't think I expect you to beleive it just because I say so. Keep an open mind. Wait, and maybe you will see." Maybe you will find out for yourself what Isiaah meant:
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
And if perchance you find you can fly, don't take yourself too seriously. Israel was carried on the wings of an eagle, and they came to difficulties.
Exodus 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I once read a book against speaking in tongues by a well-know Cessationist pastor/teacher and he said, "if the gifts were real today, then I would have them." I would say to him, you first have to have the Holy Spirit.
He could not see his own vanity? Oh dear! Perhaps he thought the "perfect" had already come for him?
1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Cessassionists seem very certain about how to read that part about prophecies and tongues ceasing. It's debatable, I guess; but it could mean some gifts fade away as individuals mature. If someone has a gift that edifies others, what happens when the others mature to the point where they can exercise gifts for themselves if that is God's Will for them? Jesus told his disciples he needed to go away -- I think if he had stayed, they would kept relying on him too much and failed to grow up themselves. Thus Jesus speaking to them while all were in the flesh stopped.
It doesn't necessarily mean the cessassionists think; but however they read it, can they honestly say they think "the perfect" has arrived for the entire church?
Sometimes I think people block the Holy Spirit by their unbelief. It doesn't disturb me if that is what is going on since some people might abuse the gifts of the Spirit if they were to have them. It may be better for some people to be blinded for then they cannot sin by abusing the gifts of God. I figure if God wants to open eyes, He knows how to do it -- as He did with Paul. There are times when it might be wise to "let them alone." God will get them if and when the time comes to prevent them from falling into the ditch.
Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
This is a very interesting statement, and in most King James Bibles the margin reads "again" as being "from above". In Strong's Greek dictionary, # 509, the word is "Anothen", "from above". You will never understand this statement that Jesus made unless you understand what it means to be "born from above." In a later verse, it is documented that you must be "born from above", or your soul will be lost for eternity.
John 3:4 "Nicodemus saith unto Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
Nicodemus still just did not understand what Jesus was saying, because he could only see the flesh realm and the law. He was looking only at the flesh.
John 3:5 "Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
"Verily, verily" is "truly, truly". Jesus is telling him that there must be two births necessary; the birth of the water and of the spirit. Many people teach that this "born of the water", means to be baptized, and this is not what is being talked about. To be born from above is to be born of the womb of your mother. Every child is born in a bag of water, in fact the normal birth is announced by the breaking of the waters with in the birthing bag. So we see in this that one must be born of woman, in innocence, and then "be born of the spirit".
Born of the spirit means to accept the Spirit of Christ. That soul choosing by free will the Spirit of Christ into their spirit. That is what the marriage of Christ is all about; to become one in Christ.
This is why most people simply do not know what being "born from above means", when they disregard what happened in the book of Genesis, and in that first earth age. They overlook all of Satan's attempts to destroy the womb of woman, and God's plan to send us His Son that we might have redemption. God intervened in Satan attempt, as He always will do. This is why the book of Jude is so important.
John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
To understand this, lets go to I Corinthians 15:50; "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
No soul in its flesh and blood body can enter the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of Heaven is where ever God is, and for the soul to enter that kingdom, it must first die or be changed. The soul must be separated from the flesh first before that soul returns to the Father that created it. This is the basic principle of the plan of our heavenly Father.
Remember back in Ecclesiastes 12:7; God told us what happens to the soul and the flesh when the flesh body dies. "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."
Our flesh bodies are the accumulation of all the elements from the earth that we consume by eating. Upon death of ones body, the process then returns the decaying flesh body back to those elements. The soul's spirit came from God, and it will return to God when this flesh body dies. All will return to the Father, for He is the judge of your soul; whether for destruction or eternal life.
Jesus is teaching Nicodemus here, and Jesus knew that Nicodemus should have understand, but didn't.
John 3:7 "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."
"Ye must be born again", as we have see, "ye must be born from above." If you are not born from above, that is to say, "born of woman", then you would be either a demonic spirit, or from a fallen angel. This is against God's law and the plan of God.
John 3:8 "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell from whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
Jesus is using an analogy here. He is saying you can hear the wind, but you can't see it. You can see the objects that are blown about in the wind, but the flow of the air itself you can not see.
When man's spirit separates from the flesh body, the soul's spirit goes where the soul goes. Man's spirit is the intellect of his soul which is that part of him that controls his soul and tells him what to do. The soul and the spirit are as one. The spirit is where your emotions come from and it gives you the ability to know right from wrong. It is from your spirit that your conscience gives you directions.
Jesus is saying that you cannot see where your spirit goes, for it is like the wind to our flesh senses, when it ascends to the Father. When you are with a loved one at the moment of death, you will not see the soul and spirit depart that physical body at the moment of death. But if you are familiar with that soul, your spirit will know when that soul has departed. Many times it has been reported that the ones that have died have spoken and talked to a loved one that has passed on, just prior to their giving up the spirit of life. God will send an angel to accompany the departing soul, into that transfer of the soul back to the Father that gave it.
Each soul must enter into an embryo once, and live in the human flesh as man [women] once, and during that life time each person has the free will to chose whom he will follow God, or Satan. At the close of this life; at God's appointed time, and for God's purposes, that flesh body is discarded, and the soul departs from the body, and returns to the Father that sent it. There is no transmigration of souls, as is taught in the eastern religions, but one soul, that enters one body, and lives in the body, until God appoints that soul to return home to heaven with Him.
john3
This is a very interesting statement, and in most King James Bibles the margin reads "again" as being "from above". In Strong's Greek dictionary, # 509, the word is "Anothen", "from above". You will never understand this statement that Jesus made unless you understand what it means to be "born from above." In a later verse, it is documented that you must be "born from above", or your soul will be lost for eternity.
John 3:4 "Nicodemus saith unto Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
Nicodemus still just did not understand what Jesus was saying, because he could only see the flesh realm and the law. He was looking only at the flesh.
John 3:5 "Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
"Verily, verily" is "truly, truly". Jesus is telling him that there must be two births necessary; the birth of the water and of the spirit. Many people teach that this "born of the water", means to be baptized, and this is not what is being talked about. To be born from above is to be born of the womb of your mother. Every child is born in a bag of water, in fact the normal birth is announced by the breaking of the waters with in the birthing bag. So we see in this that one must be born of woman, in innocence, and then "be born of the spirit".
Born of the spirit means to accept the Spirit of Christ. That soul choosing by free will the Spirit of Christ into their spirit. That is what the marriage of Christ is all about; to become one in Christ.
This is why most people simply do not know what being "born from above means", when they disregard what happened in the book of Genesis, and in that first earth age. They overlook all of Satan's attempts to destroy the womb of woman, and God's plan to send us His Son that we might have redemption. God intervened in Satan attempt, as He always will do. This is why the book of Jude is so important.
John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
To understand this, lets go to I Corinthians 15:50; "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
No soul in its flesh and blood body can enter the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of Heaven is where ever God is, and for the soul to enter that kingdom, it must first die or be changed. The soul must be separated from the flesh first before that soul returns to the Father that created it. This is the basic principle of the plan of our heavenly Father.
Remember back in Ecclesiastes 12:7; God told us what happens to the soul and the flesh when the flesh body dies. "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."
Our flesh bodies are the accumulation of all the elements from the earth that we consume by eating. Upon death of ones body, the process then returns the decaying flesh body back to those elements. The soul's spirit came from God, and it will return to God when this flesh body dies. All will return to the Father, for He is the judge of your soul; whether for destruction or eternal life.
Jesus is teaching Nicodemus here, and Jesus knew that Nicodemus should have understand, but didn't.
John 3:7 "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."
"Ye must be born again", as we have see, "ye must be born from above." If you are not born from above, that is to say, "born of woman", then you would be either a demonic spirit, or from a fallen angel. This is against God's law and the plan of God.
John 3:8 "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell from whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
Jesus is using an analogy here. He is saying you can hear the wind, but you can't see it. You can see the objects that are blown about in the wind, but the flow of the air itself you can not see.
When man's spirit separates from the flesh body, the soul's spirit goes where the soul goes. Man's spirit is the intellect of his soul which is that part of him that controls his soul and tells him what to do. The soul and the spirit are as one. The spirit is where your emotions come from and it gives you the ability to know right from wrong. It is from your spirit that your conscience gives you directions.
Jesus is saying that you cannot see where your spirit goes, for it is like the wind to our flesh senses, when it ascends to the Father. When you are with a loved one at the moment of death, you will not see the soul and spirit depart that physical body at the moment of death. But if you are familiar with that soul, your spirit will know when that soul has departed. Many times it has been reported that the ones that have died have spoken and talked to a loved one that has passed on, just prior to their giving up the spirit of life. God will send an angel to accompany the departing soul, into that transfer of the soul back to the Father that gave it.
Each soul must enter into an embryo once, and live in the human flesh as man [women] once, and during that life time each person has the free will to chose whom he will follow God, or Satan. At the close of this life; at God's appointed time, and for God's purposes, that flesh body is discarded, and the soul departs from the body, and returns to the Father that sent it. There is no transmigration of souls, as is taught in the eastern religions, but one soul, that enters one body, and lives in the body, until God appoints that soul to return home to heaven with Him.
john3
Davy
Well-Known Member
Not at all, the 1611 KJV Bible is my preferred study Bible.
But just like all Bible translations, it is not 100% perfect in translation from the manuscripts. The KJV just so happens to still be the best and most accurate ENGLISH translation to date. The few errors it does have still does not take away from God's Message, which is why He always provided more than one Scripture Witness so we'd know His Word in simplicity.
Yes, I'm well aware of the battle going on between KJV supporters of the Majority Texts vs. the Alexandria, Egypt texts translated by Westcott & Hort which is in most modern New Testament Bibles. I side with the Majority Texts.
You reveal you don't actually know your KJV Bible that well if you think I'm straining at a gnat with it.
Have you ever bothered to read the original Letter To The Reader by the KJV translators themselves, where they warned the reader of some of the translation's shortcomings? You might want to get a copy of the original 1st edition 1611 KJV in Old English and learn about that. Nelson publishers in Nashville still publish copies of the 1st edition, which also contained the Apocrypha.
No need to try and school me on the different Bible versions. I use BibleSoft study software which has many KJV study tools, and also many Bible versions. I also have a copy of The Companion Bible, which the 19th century Bible scholar E.W. Bullinger put together; it being a KJV with scholarly notes in the margin, an excellent work, except he was fooled by the 'secret rapture' plot that began in 1830s Great Britain. Still, I highly recommend that KJV study Bible by him over all others. It contains many Massorah notes in the Old Testament in the side margin, something that no other KJV study Bible has.
Davy
Well-Known Member
It's not me with the point, it is God in His Word via Apostle Paul, and Apostle Peter in Acts 2. To deny how the cloven tongue manifested per GOD'S WORD, in Acts 2, and instead follow false prophets who claim the cloven tongue is the gibberish that some speak, is to be deceived by the devil and his servants. The devil tries to copy everything that is God's, but God is NOT the author of confusion as written. But the gibberish tongue that no one present understands is not from God.
So go ahead, pump yourself up as if you were something special. You are not. Those false prophets you listen to just try to make you think you are special by speaking the fake gibberish tongue. I'd almost bet that you aren't even aware that a false-Christ is coming first, prior to our Lord Jesus' coming to gather us. I'd almost bet those false prophets have not prepared you for that at all, but instead have told you that you're going to 'fly away' before the tribulation starts. If you speak the gibberish tongue, and claim that is of The Holy Spirit, then why hasn't The Holy Spirit told you these things? I'd also bet that you don't even have a clue what the cloven tongue is for at the end of this world during the coming tribulation. Jesus showed us in His Olivet discourse; does your preachers let you study that part of God's Word? Probably not, since the Pre-tribulationalist school says Christ's Olivet discourse isn't written for Christ's Church.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Show me "cloven" tongue in the Bible in relation to speaking in tongues, and not the baptism of fire of the Holy Spirit.
I am not, nor ever have been a pre-tribulationalist. Your assumption is wrong.
The Mount of Olives sermon was what would be the saving difference in the New Covenant righteousness, from the Old Covenant pseudo-righteousness, and that it is FOR CHRISTIANS. Your assumption is wrong again.
I don't know where you get your information from, but you ramble on making false accusations like you assume you know me and what I must believe, and you definitely don't at all. You've done a good job of proving that you are clueless about the gifts of the Spirit also. But there is still time to know. First things first. Become baptized with the Holy Spirit to, at least, start developing the fruit of the Spirit.
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Davy
Well-Known Member
Acts 2:3-6
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
KJV
That above... is the TRUE cloven tongue that was spoken at Pentecost. Anything else is fake.
Everyone... present understands in their OWN language of birth. And the alternation of Greek words in the manuscripts reveals they even heard it in their OWN dialect of their language of birth. I have already shown this Scripture evidence once already in my posts here. There is no such thing as a gibberish unknown tongue written of in God's Word. The cloven tongue is what was spoken on Pentecost, not an unknown tongue. Even the phrase, "began to speak with other tongues" shows it manifested as known languages.
The following example like Kenneth Copeland at 2:03 speaking gibberish like a drunk, is NOT the true cloven tongue of Pentecost...
And those acts in those Churches are associated with what happens in eastern religions, as shown in the video. That proves those manifestations are NOT from The Holy Spirit.
All... of those I know that claim to speak the tongue of Pentecost manifests as gibberish, and they all... heed a pre-tribulational rapture theory, and none of them understood anything about giving a Testimony for Christ during the tribulation via the cloven tongue of Pentecost. That because of their being falsely taught that they won't be here for the tribulation. And that's quite a few Christian brethren I know personally.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
That was the baptizing of fire giving them the Holy Spirit. It doesn't represent speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophecy, healing or any other of the gifts of the Spirit that are given by the Holy Spirit. To only believe is is speaking in tongues is ludicrous.
Your interpretation of the Acts 2 account that you've presented more than once is incredulous and shows a huge lack of hermeneutics. You may believe what you like, but I wouldn't advise telling anyone. It just leaves you open to ridicule.
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CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
I'm not concerned with whether God wants to take me spiritually to Tokyo or wherever, or not. I want to be pleasing to Him. I look to Jesus to work His will in me, in my life. Whatever it is will be fine, whether it's washing the plates after dinner tonight, or being taken in the spirit to heaven.
Wherever Jesus is, that's where I want to be, if you know what I'm saying. Wherever He is leading in my life, it's not about where He's leading me, what matters to me is that He IS leading me.
Much love!
Yes, they are nothing but a clanging bell also...without love/charity. In verse 11 of 1 Cor 12 states that:
"All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines. So then, it makes me question when you said "We who can speak in tongues do so at our own will. "
Just wondering :)
xo
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
I understand, but I also know that these things seem to happen when someone is drawing near to God and in a state of continuous praise for a long period of time (like 8-12 hours), emptying their mind of anything else. Probably soaking which I've never done. I'm not sure if these people work or not. That part of this sounds too much like New Age meditation. Because it requires something so close to the counterfeit, I'm not going to open myself up to something I may not want attached to me.
Besides, I've known a couple of witches that partied in astro-projection. It's real.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
We talked about this last night. Here are the verses.
1 Corinthians 14:
27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.
Yes, I remember and I understand that. It is just that verse 11 in 1 Cor. 12 that confuses me.
What ever gift I might have, i cannot even say unless it is the gift of helps, faith or edification? None of the "sign" gifts though. And believe me, I have prayed for a very long time to have any of them to no adieu.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
What I heard was the still small voice. I've been able to hear His voice ever since, and I've learned to wait on that voice, BEFORE I pray in order to pray His perfect will. I've done that since 1977 and have enjoyed 100% answered prayer.
Funny, for the 30 years prior to being filled with the Spirit, I never once had an answer to prayer.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Yes, I remember and I understand that. It is just that verse 11 in 1 Cor. 12 that confuses me.
What ever gift I might have, i cannot even say unless it is the gift of helps, faith or edification? None of the "sign" gifts though. And believe me, I have prayed for a very long time to have any of them to no adieu.
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
These are part of the second filling of the Holy Spirit. They are given for the profit of all and manifest inside the church or part of one's office. Like calling on the elders of the church to anoint someone with oil for their healing.
Therefore:
Mark 16:16-18 are gifts for every individual Christian's use while alone or not as part of an office.
1 Corinthians 12 gifts are for corporate use for the growth of the Church, but also by individuals at the will of the Holy Spirit. For instance, I have the office of teacher, but have also received prophecies in visions, but am not a prophetess.
To receive gifts, the number one thing everyone must do is truly repent for the purpose of wanting to follow Jesus. I know you've done that.
To receive higher gifts one must continue to grow, and there are no better verses than 2 Peter 1:5-7 (and 8)
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
In my former life I've witnessed "astral projection", and may have done it, I've never been certain (probably counterfeit). But that was all demonic, I think.
I don't rule out the possibility of such things. I'm not seeking such. If God wants to do something like that in my life, OK, whatever He wants is fine. But it's not on my radar.
8-12 hours of a mantra-like meditation (emptying the mind) seems questionable to me, to say the least.
Much love!
