The New Birth: Born Again

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,952
2,538
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Here are scriptures of the "sound" accompanied with receiving the Holy Ghost:
....

Here is the Biblical proof of WHAT the multitudes heard spoken on Pentecost:

Acts 2:3 - "tongues" = Greek glossa (language)
Acts 2:4 - "tongues" = Greek glossa
Acts 2:6 - "language" = Greek dialektos (dialect of a language)
Acts 2:8 - "tongue" = Greek dialektos
Acts 2:11 - "tongues" = Greek glossa
Acts 2:26 - "tongue" = Greek glossa

Those are Holy Spirit markings from the Greek NT manuscripts, sealing in just what it was that was spoken and heard on Pentecost per Acts 2. Not some unknown gibberish, but KNOWN LANGUAGES OF THE WORLD, EVEN THE VERY DIALECTS OF LANGUAGES.

Dialect means the very slang of the town of one's birth! God knows how we hear and speak.


The cloven tongue is a manifestation of the ORIGINAL TONGUE which all peoples once spoke. At the tower of Babel, God confused the one tongue, breaking it into languages, and driving the peoples apart. God has promised to return all peoples to the one tongue per Zephaniah 3:9.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2019
7,784
3,150
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is no such thing as an UNKNOWN tongue written of in God's Word. What was spoken on Pentecost manifested in KNOWN languages of the world. The TRUE cloven tongue goes out AS LANGUAGES. And that is the meaning in Acts 2.

It does NOT manifest as gibberish which no one can understand.


The whole Pentecostal interpretation of a unknown tongue as a play on 1 Cor.12 thru 14 is a fallacy. The word "unknown" in 1 Cor.14 WAS ADDED BY THE KJV TRANSLATORS.

The languages spoken were not those of those watching, but what those watching heard was everyone speaking their own language.

The tongues are new languages created by God, not old languages. The gift of interpretation must accompany the speaking of tongues in a group. That is what let the Jews understand in their own language. Acts 2:8 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?

1 Corinthians 14:2 is the rule that explains what happened in Acts 2. You've reading Acts 2 backwards.

Interesting that only those not understanding the tongues as those devout Jews did thought they were drunk, or as today, call it gibberish. God hates mockers. Psalms 1:1
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus

Giuliano

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2019
5,978
3,676
113
Carlisle
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That's a leap. The wind is the Spirit. The Spirit is invisible, and so is the experience of being born again. You can't see the old nature being killed, and replaced. But there IS a dramatic difference in the person, themselves, when the slavery to sin is gone. The "sound" could just as well be the sound of angels singing. LOL
I think perhaps sometimes it could even sound like a rushing wind. I say "sometimes" because I think how the Spirit manifests is mysterious to me. I can't predict it or put it in a box. I figure just because people heard a rushing wind in the Upper Room doesn't mean it always has to be that way.

Acts 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
That would be nice, but not everyone can go to heaven at will, or around the world.
the kingdom of heaven is within you so wadr if you plan on ever "going" anywhere i guess youll need Apollos huh
understand why the pimps and hoes are beating you in
call it gibberish
My own ministry emphasis is regarding sin
as it is with all of those under the law i guess, yes
no offense but clean the outside of the cup as hard as you can ok, it will not save you imo
The tongues are new languages created by God, not old languages.
ah, so

what iyo is standing where it should not be, proclaiming itself to be Yah
? ty

fwiw we might contemplate how we all speak english, yet something said in english might not be understood by other english speakers?
Interesting that only those not understanding the tongues
well, imo you have provided us an opportunity, and i guess we will see :)
 
Last edited:

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
It's saying much more than that. The person who is born of the Spirit can move like the wind. You may hear something when the wind is blowing, you may see the wind affecting things around you; but you cannot see the wind and you don't know where it came from or where it's going.

In short, the person born of the Spirit is not stuck in his physical body but can move around outside of it. Flesh and spirit have been divided. Spirit is no longer trapped and confused by the physical body.

Ezekiel was called "son of man" and he moved around outside of his body. Paul and John were both caught up in the spirit.
hmm

i rarely find anything i disagree with in you G; except when you start speaking in Hegelian!
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,952
2,538
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The languages spoken were not those of those watching, but what those watching heard was everyone speaking their own language.

The tongues are new languages created by God, not old languages. The gift of interpretation must accompany the speaking of tongues in a group. That is what let the Jews understand in their own language. Acts 2:8 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?

1 Corinthians 14:2 is the rule that explains what happened in Acts 2. You've reading Acts 2 backwards.

You are not staying with the actual written Bible Scripture of Acts 2 which defines what the cloven tongue is. I realize you think you are, but you are not. Apostle Paul was NOT teaching about ANY such unknown tongue in the 1 Cor.12 thru 14 chapters.

The word "unknown" in 1 Corinthians 14:2 was ADDED by the KJV translators. It is NOT in the Greek New Testament manuscripts (a simple Strong's Concordance will confirm this for you if you don't believe me, so I DARE you to check me out on that.)

So when you say your whole belief of what the cloven tongue rests is on 1 Corinthians 14:2, you don't realize Paul was talking about a language which no one else present can understand. It would be like someone who only spoke Chinese came into the congregation in hometown USA and spoke. Only that person speaking Chinese and God would understand. The word "unknown" is an added word, so you cannot rely on that "unknown tongue" phrase.

In Acts 2, when the Apostles spoke in their own way, it went out divided into known languages, which is what cloven means. Everyone present heard them speak in their own dialect of their language of birth. It did not go out as gibberish that no one can understand. The TRUE SIGN of the cloven tongue is that EVERYONE present understands. That is why even Peter said this in red...

Acts 10:46-47
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,


47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
KJV

Now how could Peter have understood they were magnifying God by what they spoke? Simple, what came out of their mouths were KNOWN languages. Peter probably heard them speak in his native dialect, which Gentiles from another region or country speaking the very dialect of your hometown, that certainly would... get your attention that The Holy Spirit was behind it!
 

BGR

Member
Jul 13, 2020
36
21
8
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is no such thing as an UNKNOWN tongue written of in God's Word. What was spoken on Pentecost manifested in KNOWN languages of the world. The TRUE cloven tongue goes out AS LANGUAGES. And that is the meaning in Acts 2.
It does NOT manifest as gibberish which no one can understand.

The whole Pentecostal interpretation of a unknown tongue as a play on 1 Cor.12 thru 14 is a fallacy. The word "unknown" in 1 Cor.14 WAS ADDED BY THE KJV TRANSLATORS.

First let me point out your error in judgement. You are suggesting that I am Pentecostal - I never said I was any denomination.
Here is your error, I may have said something in my post that Pentecostals may or may not also believe, but that does not make me a Pentecostal anymore than the following...

1. Pentecostals believe the Earth is round
2. You DAVY believe the Earth is round
3. Therefor YOU must be a Pentecostal

By your own logic you are Pentecostal.


Now then, I did a word search for "unknown tongue" in the KJV and the results were all in 1Corintians chapter 14.
In ALL cases, the word "unknown" is italicized, which means the translators did NOT try to hide anything, it is a sign of honesty on the translators' part. It is a simple way of telling us when the word in English is not in the Hebrew or the Greek and used to make things better grammatical sense in English.
 
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus

Giuliano

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2019
5,978
3,676
113
Carlisle
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
hmm

i rarely find anything i disagree with in you G; except when you start speaking in Hegelian!
hmm

i rarely find anything i disagree with in you G; except when you start speaking in Hegelian!
"We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen. . . ."

That passage is one of the most misunderstood in the Bible. Jesus and Nicodemus are discussing something almost never discussed in public. If you knew, you weren't supposed to discuss it in public. So said Maimonides who also said the Jews did not like that Ezekiel had written down things they preferred to be quiet about. Maimonides said they would have suppressed the book of Ezekiel by hiding it away, but there were too many copies around since it was so popular. John is "discrete" when he writes about it; and then you have to ask how John knew about that conversation. Nicodemus told him, don't you think? That would mean John was "qualified" to hear the conversation.

People often start off by thinking Nicodemus was stupid. He wasn't. He played dumb to see what Jesus knew. He wanted to know if Jesus was a fraud or from the Dark Side. So he makes an appeal to vanity, "Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him." No one in the Sanhedrin would say that and mean it. Nicodemus is being tricky. He knew that evil men could sometimes perform miracles -- Moses warned about that! So Nicodemus plays dumb to see if he can get Jesus to reveal that he knows about this "mystery." Jesus then jokes back, " Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?" Of course, Nicodemus knew, and Jesus knew he knew. So Jesus says some mysterious things and Nicodemus is then convinced Jesus is from God.

Christians read that conversation and forget that Nicodemus was convinced Jesus was Messiah by what he said. Jesus had passed the test Nicodemus gave him.
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
"We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen. . . ."

That passage is one of the most misunderstood in the Bible. Jesus and Nicodemus are discussing something almost never discussed in public. If you knew, you weren't supposed to discuss it in public. So said Maimonides who also said the Jews did not like that Ezekiel had written down things they preferred to be quiet about. Maimonides said they would have suppressed the book of Ezekiel by hiding it away, but there were too many copies around since it was so popular. John is "discrete" when he writes about it; and then you have to ask how John knew about that conversation. Nicodemus told him, don't you think? That would mean John was "qualified" to hear the conversation.

People often start off by thinking Nicodemus was stupid. He wasn't. He played dumb to see what Jesus knew. He wanted to know if Jesus was a fraud or from the Dark Side. So he makes an appeal to vanity, "Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him." No one in the Sanhedrin would say that and mean it. Nicodemus is being tricky. He knew that evil men could sometimes perform miracles -- Moses warned about that! So Nicodemus plays dumb to see if he can get Jesus to reveal that he knows about this "mystery." Jesus then jokes back, " Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?" Of course, Nicodemus knew, and Jesus knew he knew. So Jesus says some mysterious things and Nicodemus is then convinced Jesus is from God.

Christians read that conversation and forget that Nicodemus was convinced Jesus was Messiah by what he said. Jesus had passed the test Nicodemus gave him.
ah, so

seems you are close to like Astral Projection or something maybe with that wadr...which for all i know is a real thing i guess lol
 
  • Like
Reactions: Giuliano

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,952
2,538
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
First let me point out your error in judgement. You are suggesting that I am Pentecostal - I never said I was any denomination.
Here is your error, I may have said something in my post that Pentecostals may or may not also believe, but that does not make me a Pentecostal anymore than the following...

1. Pentecostals believe the Earth is round
2. You DAVY believe the Earth is round
3. Therefor YOU must be a Pentecostal

By your own logic you are Pentecostal.


Now then, I did a word search for "unknown tongue" in the KJV and the results were all in 1Corintians chapter 14.
In ALL cases, the word "unknown" is italicized, which means the translators did NOT try to hide anything, it is a sign of honesty on the translators' part. It is a simple way of telling us when the word in English is not in the Hebrew or the Greek and used to make things better grammatical sense in English.

Doesn't matter if you call yourself 'butter', the doctrine you are pushing began from the old Pentecostal movement in America. See history on Charles Parham and William J. Seymour, both who lived in the late 1800s to early 1900s.

An italicized word in the KJV, for those type Bibles that have it, shows an ADDED word. In some cases added words for the translation was done in honesty to make it easier to read in English, in other cases, like Acts 12:4 with the blatant mistranslation of pascha (passover) for "Easter" (old pagan day of worship, Ishtar), the translators were wrong in doing that.

In the 1 Co.14 case with their adding the word "unknown", that is simply their personal interpretation added to the Scripture. It doesn't make their interpretation correct. What makes the idea of "diversity of tongues" Paul was speaking about in 1 Cor.12 being about known languages, is that Paul wasn't teaching about the cloven tongue there. He was speaking of The Holy Spirit gift that 'some' have with learning and speaking multiple languages.

1 Cor 14:16-19
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?


17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
KJV


Paul is NOT talking about the cloven tongue of Pentecost there. He is talking about known languages of the world. The cloven tongue is something that is not learned. He instead is talking about the "unlearned" not understanding what is spoken. That means those unlearned in whatever language is spoken.
 

BGR

Member
Jul 13, 2020
36
21
8
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Doesn't matter if you call yourself 'butter', the doctrine you are pushing began from the old Pentecostal movement in America. See history on Charles Parham and William J. Seymour, both who lived in the late 1800s to early 1900s.

An italicized word in the KJV, for those type Bibles that have it, shows an ADDED word. In some cases added words for the translation was done in honesty to make it easier to read in English, in other cases, like Acts 12:4 with the blatant mistranslation of pascha (passover) for "Easter" (old pagan day of worship, Ishtar), the translators were wrong in doing that.

In the 1 Co.14 case with their adding the word "unknown", that is simply their personal interpretation added to the Scripture. It doesn't make their interpretation correct. What makes the idea of "diversity of tongues" Paul was speaking about in 1 Cor.12 being about known languages, is that Paul wasn't teaching about the cloven tongue there. He was speaking of The Holy Spirit gift that 'some' have with learning and speaking multiple languages.

1 Cor 14:16-19
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?


17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
KJV


Paul is NOT talking about the cloven tongue of Pentecost there. He is talking about known languages of the world. The cloven tongue is something that is not learned. He instead is talking about the "unlearned" not understanding what is spoken. That means those unlearned in whatever language is spoken.


You seem to have a real hatred for the KJV. Might I point out that other later versions have deliberately changed words as well as OMITTED entire verses altogether.

To create a NEW VERSION you must first CHANGE enough text to avoid copy right laws. And you strain at a gnat on the KJV?

Get out your NIV and turn to Matthew 17:21 ... not there? That's ok - you can read it in the KJV.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2019
7,784
3,150
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The word "unknown" in 1 Corinthians 14:2 was ADDED by the KJV translators. It is NOT in the Greek New Testament manuscripts (a simple Strong's Concordance will confirm this for you if you don't believe me, so I DARE you to check me out on that.)

I just use the KNJV and if "no one understands him" was added, then you could have a point, but you don't.

2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

So when you say your whole belief of what the cloven tongue rests is on 1 Corinthians 14:2, you don't realize Paul was talking about a language which no one else present can understand.

No, silly goose, he is about to introduce the importance of the GIFT of interpretation of tongues. What you have done is deceitfully added to the true meaning of the verse, even though in Acts 2, not only were the speaking supernatural, but the hearing as well. But you are not alone. Many cessationists deceitfully do even worse atrocities to the word of God. You might want to repent.
 
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2019
7,784
3,150
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
First let me point out your error in judgement. You are suggesting that I am Pentecostal - I never said I was any denomination.
Here is your error, I may have said something in my post that Pentecostals may or may not also believe, but that does not make me a Pentecostal anymore than the following...

1. Pentecostals believe the Earth is round
2. You DAVY believe the Earth is round
3. Therefor YOU must be a Pentecostal

By your own logic you are Pentecostal.


Now then, I did a word search for "unknown tongue" in the KJV and the results were all in 1Corintians chapter 14.
In ALL cases, the word "unknown" is italicized, which means the translators did NOT try to hide anything, it is a sign of honesty on the translators' part. It is a simple way of telling us when the word in English is not in the Hebrew or the Greek and used to make things better grammatical sense in English.

I like Mark 16:17 where the tongues are "NEW". They are not old languages created by God, but unheard of languages that only God knows.
 
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus

Pearl

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Apr 9, 2019
11,660
17,744
113
Lancashire
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
I did not say that "they MUST operate the gift to prove they have the Spirit" ... sorry.

As far as faked tongues ... I heard some horror stories, I think we all have. But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.
If you are in a prayerful situation and focused on Jesus surely then you wouldn't come out with a 'fake' tongue.

When I pray in tongues it doesn't sound like gibberish to me, it sounds like a proper language with sentences, commas and full stops. And even it does sound like gibberish to anybody else I'm certain that God understands it.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus

Giuliano

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2019
5,978
3,676
113
Carlisle
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
ah, so

seems you are close to like Astral Projection or something maybe with that wadr...which for all i know is a real thing i guess lol
I think astral projection can be done by many people. Those take place in the two lower heavens of lower and upper waters -- or as they are called in other places water and air. Anyone who dreams about flying means he has "wings" of some sort. That places him in the middle heaven of air -- much better than the lower level of the sea Of course, you don't really need wings to fly. Getting to the Third Heaven is a little harder. "Something" needs to "come down" to get you.

Now if you are in the Third Heaven (of fire) and want to show up on the lower levels -- or even to people in physical bodies, you shift down and "appear" in a cloud in the region of air or upper water. You don't need to fly at all -- you visualize the space you want to be in and make a body appear there. Thus you really can be in two places at the same time as Jesus said. He said he "came down" from Heaven but also said he was in Heaven too.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

I had an amusing experience once when returning to my body. I forgot I had moved my bed. Instead of slipping easily into my body when I got back, I got disoriented. I looked around the room and didn't recognize it at first since I was in a corner of the room -- looking at the room in a way I had never seen it before since my physical eyes had never been in that corner looking at the room.

People have opinions about the astral plane, often without seeing much of it if any. Our souls can visit there while our physical bodies are asleep; but then too, there are "things" on the astral plane that would like to show up in the physical world. Can they? They try. Some do -- coming up out of the "sea." It is very hard for them to "appear" to our physical eyes although they would love to do it, but they can still interact with mediums, wiccans and the like. Yes, some of them also can chat with Christians deceiving them.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2019
7,784
3,150
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You seem to have a real hatred for the KJV. Might I point out that other later versions have deliberately changed words as well as OMITTED entire verses altogether.

To create a NEW VERSION you must first CHANGE enough text to avoid copy right laws. And you strain at a gnat on the KJV?

Get out your NIV and turn to Matthew 17:21 ... not there? That's ok - you can read it in the KJV.

I looked in my 1526 Tyndale translation and that verse is there.
 

BGR

Member
Jul 13, 2020
36
21
8
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I like Mark 16:17 where the tongues are "NEW". They are not old languages created by God, but unheard of languages that only God knows.


1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

God is an awesome God.
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
I think astral projection can be done by many people. Those take place in the two lower heavens of lower and upper waters -- or as they are called in other places water and air. Anyone who dreams about flying means he has "wings" of some sort. That places him in the middle heaven of air -- much better than the lower level of the sea Of course, you don't really need wings to fly. Getting to the Third Heaven is a little harder. "Something" needs to "come down" to get you.

Now if you are in the Third Heaven (of fire) and want to show up on the lower levels -- or even to people in physical bodies, you shift down and "appear" in a cloud in the region of air or upper water. You don't need to fly at all -- you visualize the space you want to be in and make a body appear there. Thus you really can be in two places at the same time as Jesus said. He said he "came down" from Heaven but also said he was in Heaven too.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

I had an amusing experience once when returning to my body. I forgot I had moved my bed. Instead of slipping easily into my body when I got back, I got disoriented. I looked around the room and didn't recognize it at first since I was in a corner of the room -- looking at the room in a way I had never seen it before since my physical eyes had never been in that corner looking at the room.

People have opinions about the astral plane, often without seeing much of it if any. Our souls can visit there while our physical bodies are asleep; but then too, there are "things" on the astral plane that would like to show up in the physical world. Can they? They try. Some do -- coming up out of the "sea." It is very hard for them to "appear" to our physical eyes although they would love to do it, but they can still interact with mediums, wiccans and the like. Yes, some of them also can chat with Christians deceiving them.
i was just scanning a fairly interesting doc on skinwalker ranch last night, in this vein, sort of. Dunno what to make of it tbh, but then i guess some of our finest minds have had a crack at it, and they dont either!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Giuliano

Joseph77

Well-Known Member
Apr 1, 2020
5,673
1,325
113
Tulsa, OK
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Heard of disneyland ? or hollywood? ... ... or sixflagsovermidamerica ?

.... westworld ?
.... fantasy island ?

etc etc etc ....
 

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2019
7,784
3,150
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

God is an awesome God.

Yes, and only believers truly understand just how awesome He is!!! I feel sorry for mockers of little faith. I used to be one!
 
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus and Pearl