The Nicene Creed is not Christian

[OzSpen]

No, I make no such assertions. What I do want is to have a clear definition of what the term "Christian" is supposed to mean in the title of the thread.

From my point of view, the Nicene Creed is a document crafted by Christians. Even though we may not agree on the exact soteriology language in the creed, this does not mean it is not "Christian." Yet the OP seems to disagree with me. So then I have to ask, what do you mean by "Christian"?

This said the ambiguity of who is or is not a Christian is valid. I believe what is considered orthodox beliefs are the measure, not to be confused with Orthodox Christians (i.e. Greek, Russian, Eastern Orthodox). Trinitarian, Bodily Resurrection...core doctrines of the faith. Secondary concerns like eschatology do not divide. So then I would say JW, Christian Science, Christian Deists (like some liberal theologians), Oneness Pentecostals, and Mormons are out while mainline Protestants, Evangelicals, RC, and Orthodox are in.

Yet here in the OP is an issue of soteriology. This is a difficult issue and has divided the Church greatly.

I do not think that the definition of 'Christian' should be determined by denominational affiliation or labelling. I consider that what we believe determines our Christianity. Here is my suggestion:

These are adapted from The Athanasian Creed: To be a Christian, we believe

1. In worshipping one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
2. There is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit; the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal
3. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal; yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
4. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
5. It is necessary to experience everlasting salvation that a person believe in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ, i.e. The Christian faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
6. Jesus suffered death and shed his blood for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again bodily on the third day from the dead;
7. Jesus ascended into heaven where He sits on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty;
8. From there, He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
9. At Jesus' second coming, all people who have died will rise again with their bodies and shall give account of their own works.
10. At the final judgment, the righteous will go into life everlasting and the unrighteous into everlasting damnation.

I consider that these are the essential beliefs for being a Christian. You might like to add some, including a more precise statement of the substitutionary atonement.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

deleted

 

[ewq1938]

There is nothing mentioned in these 3 verses about becoming disciples and being baptised either. Are you telling me that the disciples called in Matt 4:18-20 were not required to be baptised and become disciples?

Again, as the verses show, one can follow Christ prior to repentance (or baptism). Some might Get baptised and repent first, some might repent then get baptised first....it really doesn't matter. Any order is fine.

Same with repent. None of these called by Jesus would need to be told about the need to repent because that was clearly a centre of the Gospel message as Matt 4:17 makes clear. It was the message of John the Baptist (Matt 3:2).

Again, no evidence at all to suggest these men had heard the message about repenting or had been baptised.

I find that you are straining at a gnat to try to prove your point. It doesn't work with me.

Doesn't apply to me. I take the verses as they are without adding assumptions. I'm the only one approaching the verses in his manner.

The counter argument is simply assuming "they MUST have already accepted Christ, MUST have already repented, MUST have already been baptised"....not a shred of evidence needed of course.

 

[OzSpen]

Ye Shall Know Them By Their Fruits


1. The question was posed to me, “Where are the signs and wonders of the heresy hunters?” The Bible says in Mark 16:17-18 KJV, “17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” But the bible does not say that you will be able to recognize men of God by their signs and wonders. In fact, the Scriptures warn us in numerous places that the antichrists will be able to perform signs and wonders too. The first evidence of this is in Genesis 3:1 KJV, “Now the serpent was more subtile than any beast of the field which [Yahowah] God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?” The point I am making here is that Satan can make an animal talk.

2. Have you noticed the tactics used thus far by those who employ lying signs and wonders. First, they accuse the brethren. Second, they make up derogatory names such as heresy hunter, then apply it to their enemies. The homosexuals employ the same tactic. They have coined the word homophobe, and attach it to those who disagree with them. Islam uses the term infidel, and apply it all who will not accept the moon god, Allah, as their own personal god. Heresy hunter, homophobe, infidel, it makes little difference, these are meaningless words spoken by confused minds. The tragedy is that there are confused ears that listen to meaningless words and draw sinful conclusions. These are accusatory terms employed against the true children of God. Who, does Scripture say, is the accuser of the brethren? Revelation 12:9-10 KJV, “9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.” He twists the Scripture and tries to make it say what it does not say by questioning, “Hath God said? (Genesis 3:1)” This is one of the deceptive arguments the antichrists employ. They try to turn men of God away from the teaching of Scripture and use apologetics of their own making. Titus 1:16, KJV, “They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.”

3. The Bible does say in Matthew 7:16-20 KJV, “16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” In other words, the strong teaching of Scripture leads us away from our empirical experiences and leads us to the word of God, the Bible, and what it says. Because our senses may be wrong, but the word of God is trustworthy.

4. So, what is fruit? Matthew 12:33 KJV, “Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.” Fruit is not the people that a leader or teacher gathers to himself. Fruit is not the change, for the better or worse, in the lives of those gathered around any particular teacher. Fruit is what grows from and hangs onto a tree. Fruit is the teachings and doctrines that exude from a man, and cling to him, so that others will be able to observe and see his beliefs and character. If this man performs signs and wonders, yet his fruit is in contrast to the Bible, then those signs and wonders are not from God. They are deceptions. Deuteronomy 13:1-3 KJV, “1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for [Yahowah] your God proveth you, to know whether ye love [Yahowah] your God with all your heart and with all your soul.”

5. The Bible gives us a second way to recognize those who represent Christ and how to recognize those who represent the antichrist. It is found in 1 John 4:1-3 KJV, “1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that [Yahoshua the] Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that [Yahoshua the] Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.” What does it mean to acknowledge that Yahoshua the Christ has come in the flesh? When compared with other applicable Scriptures, its meaning becomes clear. If one confesses that Yahoshua the Christ came from God, that He came from His eternal preexistence which was God (John 1:1,14; 8:58; 17:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 7:3, Revelation 22:13)*, and has now taken on human flesh and is now God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23)*, then this one has confessed that Yahoshua the Christ has come in the flesh.

*NOTE. Isaiah 7:14 KJV, “Therefore [Yahowah] himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” Matthew 1:23 KJV, “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.” John 1:1,14 KJV, “1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” John 8:58 KJV, “[Yahoshua] said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” John 17:5 KJV, “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” Colossians 2:9 KJV, “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” Hebrews 7:3 KJV, “Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.” Revelation 22:13 KJV, “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.”

6. I want the whole Christian community to understand I did not start this fight. I, nor by brothers who have the same calling in Christ, do not cause division. Those who preach false doctrine are the divisive ones. I am not unloving. Those who preach false doctrine are unloving. Those who teach false doctrine are despicable because not only are they hell bound, but because they drag others to their deaths as well. Scripture says these heretics are accursed. 2 Peter 2:1-3 KJV, “1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.” 2 Peter 2:10-14 KJV, “10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:”. 2 Peter 2:17-22 KJV, “17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour [Yahoshua the] Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”

7. It angers me greatly that the devil has a foothold on them, I wish to snatch them from the fire. Jude 23 KJV, “And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.” But it angers me too, that they enjoy the devilish hook so much, that they use it to ensnare others. It is not I who says that I am not divisive and they are, it is Holy Scripture that says it in Romans 16:17-18 KJV, “17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord [Yahoshua the] Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.”


8. We welcome constructive input supported by Scriptures from the Bible. Please contact us by our email address [email protected]. Copyright © 2005 Richard Douglas Mauck and/or Sandra Faye Mauck.


Oz, I realize this is not a total answer to your question. Mainly, I have not provided a list of fruit (doctrines) that exude from and cling to those who preach heresies against the essentials of the faith. This treatise was written to teach some how to fish, rather than to provide fish for one meal or one day.

Zeke25

Zeke,

There is absolutely no need to quote lengthy portions of Scripture in your favourite KJV translation and then highlight in red. I found that to be voluminous and extremely distracting.

I agree that by their fruit you will know they are Christians, but I'm still waiting for you to articulate BRIEFLY what those particular fruit are.

What are the beliefs one must uphold to be called Christian?

Oz

 

[ewq1938]

I do not think that the definition of 'Christian' should be determined by denominational affiliation or labelling. I consider that what we believe determines our Christianity. Here is my suggestion:

These are adapted from The Athanasian Creed: To be a Christian, we believe

1. In worshipping one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

Not all Christians believe in the Trinity.

2. There is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit; the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal

Two major errors in this. A spirit is not a person, Luk_24:39. And scripture is clear the Father and Son are not "co-equal" if you mean as far as authority. Co-equal in divinity but not equal in authority as the Father is the head of Christ.

3. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal; yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

This is already established in number 2.

4. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

Established in number 1.


5. It is necessary to experience everlasting salvation that a person believe in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ, i.e. The Christian faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

9. At Jesus' second coming, all people who have died will rise again with their bodies and shall give account of their own works.

this is false. Only the dead in Christ resurrect at this timeframe. The unsaved dead "lived not again" until the thousand years have expired, Rev 20.

10. At the final judgment, the righteous will go into life everlasting and the unrighteous into everlasting damnation.

Technically correct but the saved were judged at a different earlier time. The last judgment time is only for the unsaved dead.

I consider that these are the essential beliefs for being a Christian. You might like to add some, including a more precise statement of the substitutionary atonement.

The main problem is this list reflects your own personal requirements but not all Christians would agree, especially in the areas where you make obvious errors.

 

[OzSpen]

Again, as the verses show, one can follow Christ prior to repentance (or baptism). Some might Get baptised and repent first, some might repent then get baptised first....it really doesn't matter. Any order is fine.

Again, no evidence at all to suggest these men had heard the message about repenting or had been baptised.

Doesn't apply to me. I take the verses as they are without adding assumptions. I'm the only one approaching the verses in his manner.

The counter argument is simply assuming "they MUST have already accepted Christ, MUST have already repented, MUST have already been baptised"....not a shred of evidence needed of course.

This is a red herring of a reply. You don't answer the issues I raise. We can't have a logical conversation when you do this.

 

[ewq1938]

This is a red herring of a reply. You don't answer the issues I raise. We can't have a logical conversation when you do this.

It is not. I answered every point you attempted to make. Your reply here is actually a red herring because it seeks to ignore everything I said, and change the topic....in this case the new topic is that my post was a red herring when it wasn't. Go back to my post and respond point by point to the things I posted in response to each of your points. That Sir is the only way to have a logical conversation.

 

[OzSpen]

Not all Christians believe in the Trinity.

For heaven's sake, mate. I provided a list of points to define who is a Christian.

There are NO Christians who do not believe in the Trinity. Those who reject the Trinity are unitarians, but they are not Christians. How do I know? The Bible told me so!

The Father is God: 'Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist' (1 Cor 8:6 ESV).

The Son is God: 'Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am”' (John 8:58 ESV).

The Holy Spirit is God: 'But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God”' (Acts 5:3-4 ESV).

It is a fundamental understanding of biblical Christianity that Christians are those who believe in the Trinitarian God. Worshipping a unitarian god is to worship a false God, thus causing a person to not be a Christian.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Two major errors in this. A spirit is not a person, Luk_24:39. And scripture is clear the Father and Son are not "co-equal" if you mean as far as authority. Co-equal in divinity but not equal in authority as the Father is the head of Christ.

This article, 'Is the Holy Spirit a person?' demonstrates the error of your statement.

Luke 24:39 (ESV) states, 'See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have"'.

This is a post-resurrection appearance of Jesus to his disciples and he was demonstrating to them that his resurrected body on earth (in the 40 days between his resurrection and ascension) was truly of human flesh - the hands and feet that on the body that had been crucified that was now alive and could be touched and seen.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the point you are trying to make. Yours is another red herring - a false interpretation of what Jesus was saying.

Oz

 

[Joyful]

There are NO Christians who do not believe in the Trinity. Those who reject the Trinity are unitarians, but they are not Christians. How do I know? The Bible told me so!

This is Trinitarians' definition of Christian.

Christians are followers of Jesus Christ.

Jesus nor any of His disciples taught the trinity. It is man-made doctrine.

blessings.

 

[OzSpen]

The main problem is this list reflects your own personal requirements but not all Christians would agree, especially in the areas where you make obvious errors.

This is a false claim against me. All of the 10 points came from the Athanasian Creed that has been accepted by the church for nearly 2 millennia. You are the one promoting errors. I'm not suggesting that I have all of my theology perfectly correct. I'm a work in progress. However, you do have a few quirks in your theology that you don't want to acknowledge.

 

[Joyful]

Everyone,

Salvation is conditional. If we want eternal life, we have to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, meaning we must obey everything He commands us.

How do we know? Jesus says "if you love Me, keep My commands." If we don't love Jesus, there is no salvation. It is that simple concept.

 

[ewq1938]

For heaven's sake, mate. I provided a list of points to define who is a Christian.

Yes you did and I responded by showing you the errors in it.

There are NO Christians who do not believe in the Trinity. Those who reject the Trinity are unitarians, but they are not Christians. How do I know? The Bible told me so!

I believe The Father Son and HS are one God also, but I don't think not believing in that makes someone not a Christian. If they follow Christ as their Messiah, they are Christian. Whether they understand the complexities of the Trinity is another matter.

It is a fundamental understanding of biblical Christianity that Christians are those who believe in the Trinitarian God. Worshipping a unitarian god is to worship a false God, thus causing a person to not be a Christian.

The same judgmental language they use against us. No wonder the divisions are deep and the bitterness so strong.

 

[OzSpen]

This is Trinitarians definition of Christian.

Christians are followers of Jesus' Christ.

Jesus nor any of His disciples taught the trinity. It is man-made doctrine.

blessings.

Joyful,

So are you admitting that you are a non-Trinitarian in your beliefs?

So, in your understanding, 'Christians are followers of Jesus Christ'. Which Jesus? The one who is fully God? The one who said, 'I am the Father are one' (John 10:30 ESV)?

I have already demonstrated from Scripture that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And you have the audacity to say that the Trinity is a man-made doctrine. You happen to be dead wrong. It comes straight from Scripture.

I'm pleased you have admitted publicly that you are a non-Trinitarian and that your view is that those who believe in the Trinity (as I do) support a man-made doctrine.

I have not the slightest interest in making up any doctrine. I am a committed evangelical Christian who gains all of my teaching from Scripture.

Oz

 

[ewq1938]

This article, 'Is the Holy Spirit a person?' demonstrates the error of your statement.

Luke 24:39 (ESV) states, 'See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have"'.

This is a post-resurrection appearance of Jesus to his disciples and he was demonstrating to them that his resurrected body on earth (in the 40 days between his resurrection and ascension) was truly of human flesh - the hands and feet that on the body that had been crucified that was now alive and could be touched and seen.

Jesus was a person not a spirit therefore the opposite is also true, a spirit is not a person. Thus, the Holy Spirit is not a person. A person has a body soul and spirit as Jesus had.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the point you are trying to make. Yours is another red herring - a false interpretation of what Jesus was saying.

This is the second time you have identified something errantly as a red herring. You apparently do not know what the red herring fallacy is:

A red herring fallacy is when an irrelevant or unrelated topic is introduced in a discussion in order to divert attention from the original issue to something else in order to no longer discuss the original topic.

The current topic is whether a spirit can be a person. I cited relevant scripture that states a person is not a spirit. Thus, it is not a red herring. What you have used is a "false fallacy identification fallacy" where something is claimed to be an argumentative fallacy when it doesn't match the actual definition.

 

[Joyful]

Joyful,

So are you admitting that you are a non-Trinitarian in your beliefs?

Yes, I am a non-trin.

So, in your understanding, 'Christians are followers of Jesus Christ'. Which Jesus? The one who is fully God? The one who said, 'I am the Father are one' (John 10:30 ESV)?

Jesus says He is Son of God and Savior or the world. That's what I believe. Jesus nor anyone of His apostles said God the Father, Son and the HS make one God. I skip the rest to make my point clear.

Blessings.

 

[ewq1938]

This is a false claim against me. All of the 10 points came from the Athanasian Creed that has been accepted by the church for nearly 2 millennia.

I didn't intend the use of "personal" to suggest you are the only one to promote this but that you personally do promote it and believe in it.

You are the one promoting errors. I'm not suggesting that I have all of my theology perfectly correct. I'm a work in progress. However, you do have a few quirks in your theology that you don't want to acknowledge.

You may believe this but you haven't proven it yet nor have you been able to dispute the things I cited as being wrong in the creed you posted and personally believe in.

Christ literally said a spirit does not have flesh and bones. Jesus is a person, not a spirit. Any spirit then is not a person because it will lack flesh and bones. Being a person requires having certain things, especially a body. No spirit has a body and thus cannot be a person. Being grieved or lied to does not make a non-person into a person. That's bad logic used for centuries by well meaning but nevertheless incorrect Christians. A spirit comes from a person and in the case of the Holy Spirit we are told it comes from God the Father meaning it is his own personal spirit which he is able to send forth.

 

[OzSpen]

I believe The Father Son and HS are one God also, but I don't think not believing in that makes someone not a Christian. If they follow Christ as their Messiah, they are Christian. Whether they understand the complexities of the Trinity is another matter.

ewq,

Don't you understand the folly of what you are promoting. You claim that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God but you want to accept someone as being Christian who believes in another god, a unitarian god. Paul warned the Galatians about 'a different gospel' and of those who 'distort the gospel' (Gal 1:6-7 ESV).

You are prepared to accept those who worship a unitarian god as Christian. That is promotion of another gospel, one that will not get people into the kingdom.

You will accept them as Christian if 'they follow Christ as their Messiah'. Which Christ, the Messiah? The unitarian Christ? That's a false Christ and leads people to damnation. See, 'What is Unitarianism?'

In the first century, John was dealing with Gnosticism, where people were denying that Jesus Christ had come in the flesh (see 1 John 4:1-4). What did John tell these Christians to do with the Gnostics?

1. Test the spirits;
2. Many false prophets are in the world and these deny (A) Jesus came in the flesh, and (B) Jesus is from God;
3. This is the spirit of antichrist which is now in the world.

In August 2015 on this forum, we are encountering Unitarianism (anti-Trinitarianism) and we are to follow the same procedure John gave:

1. Test the spirits;
2. False prophets are on this forum who deny (A) the Trinitarian God, which means (B) Jesus is not God;
3. This is the spirit of antichrist which is not promoting itself on Christianity Board and is elsewhere in the world.

A toleration of anti-Trinitarianism on this evangelical forum, is a toleration of error.

Oz

 

[zeke25]

Zeke,

There is absolutely no need to quote lengthy portions of Scripture in your favourite KJV translation and then highlight in red. I found that to be voluminous and extremely distracting.

I agree that by their fruit you will know they are Christians, but I'm still waiting for you to articulate BRIEFLY what those particular fruit are.

What are the beliefs one must uphold to be called Christian?

Oz

Oz,

I guess it was not clear. This treatise that I posted was written 10 years ago as a teaching to the Body of Christ. It happens that this treatise applied directly to your question. The Scriptures and red highlighting are the method and format I use in all of my treatises. It is very important for me to separate my exegesis from Scripture. I want people to see where my exegesis comes from and know that I did not write the Scripture, I'm quoting it. My exegesis is greatly devalued if Scripture does not support it. It is put all together so that one who reads it can follow it more easily. In fact, if you skip reading the Scripture and only read my comments, then you have wasted your time reading it. The Scripture is the most important part of the treatise and applies directly to real life situations today. If you cannot make that connection, what can I say, I presented it the best way possible. If my method makes you uncomfortable, then don't read it.

Since the OP is all about the Nicene Creed and its claim that water baptism forgives sins, when it is the shed Blood of Christ, then this is one doctrine that separates Christian and non-Christian. But it is not that cut and dried. There are Christians who have been taught incorrectly, who have not been taught how to study the Bible correctly, and these Christians can be temporarily deceived. Under this deception they can believe things that they ought not. But I do not believe that the Holy Ghost will leave His children in their deception. He will deliver them. But that is His job and He does it in His timing. I am only a messenger. I am only responsible for telling them. I can't make them believe it.

So, what I'm really advising you, is that you need to learn discernment from the Holy Spirit. You don't need a check list from me. My checklist works for me, but for you it might lead you down the path of erroneous judgmentalism. That's why the treatise I posted here is important and applicable. It is not a fish for you to eat (a checklist), it is an instruction on how to learn to fish so that you can provide your own fish to eat.

zeke25

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

I guess it was not clear. This treatise that I posted was written 10 years ago as a teaching to the Body of Christ. It happens that this treatise applied directly to your question. The Scriptures and red highlighting are the method and format I use in all of my treatises. It is very important for me to separate my exegesis from Scripture. I want people to see where my exegesis comes from and know that I did not write the Scripture, I'm quoting it. My exegesis is greatly devalued if Scripture does not support it. It is put all together so that one who reads it can follow it more easily. In fact, if you skip reading the Scripture and only read my comments, then you have wasted your time reading it. The Scripture is the most important part of the treatise and applies directly to real life situations today. If you cannot make that connection, what can I say, I presented it the best way possible. If my method makes you uncomfortable, then don't read it.

zeke25

That's not the point, Zeke. We have a facility on this forum so that you can write, say, John 3:16 (KJV) or John 3:16 (ESV) and these verses are automatically available in that translation. Therefore, there is no reason to quote your verses at length.

I know that this material was from somewhere else as point #8 stated, but I didn't know who that person was and couldn't locate the material online with Google.

Oz