The Nicene Creed is not Christian

[OzSpen]

How in the world does this have to do with the current discussion? Nothing stated here is disagreed by me, nor was countered by anything I have posted. I simply do not believe we can judge someone as non-Christian if they don't understand the Trinity. Most Trinitarians don't even understand the Trinity properly. I think we have to leave out non-salvational things when deciding who is and who isn't a Christian.

ewq,

The issue at stake is that a person, Joyful, did not state that she doesn't 'understand the Trinity'. That is your imposition. She said she was 'non-trin'. In other words, her belief is in a non-trinitarian god. That is, she is unitarian, Arian. She did not cast doubt on her not being able to understand the Trinity. She declared categorically she is non-trin. Do you get it? Why must you twist what she said into 'if they don't understand the Trinity'?

You want 'to leave out non-salvational things when deciding who is and who isn't a Christian'. Who God is, is fundamental to understanding salvation. Why would any god make it necessary for a sinless sacrifice of his Son to provide salvation? It relates to the true nature of God and the requirements for dealing with sin.

You are here being very judgmental yourself when you condemn others for being judgmental. Your judgmentalism is that 'I simply do not believe we can judge someone as non-Christian if they don't understand the Trinity'. You don't seem to understand that you catch yourself in your own trap. You, the one who is condemning judgments, is involved in judgments of your own. This is hypocrisy when you are practising what you are condemning.

Whether one believes in the Trinity or not relates to who is your God. When we share the Gospel, which God are you proclaiming? The Trinitarian Lord God Almighty or some impotent non-trin god?

Oz

 

[justaname]

I do not think that the definition of 'Christian' should be determined by denominational affiliation or labelling. I consider that what we believe determines our Christianity. Here is my suggestion:

These are adapted from The Athanasian Creed: To be a Christian, we believe

1. In worshipping one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
2. There is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit; the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal
3. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal; yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
4. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
5. It is necessary to experience everlasting salvation that a person believe in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ, i.e. The Christian faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
6. Jesus suffered death and shed his blood for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again bodily on the third day from the dead;
7. Jesus ascended into heaven where He sits on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty;
8. From there, He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
9. At Jesus' second coming, all people who have died will rise again with their bodies and shall give account of their own works.
10. At the final judgment, the righteous will go into life everlasting and the unrighteous into everlasting damnation.

I consider that these are the essential beliefs for being a Christian. You might like to add some, including a more precise statement of the substitutionary atonement.

Oz

In my response I said "core beliefs" of orthodoxy...I think that would put the field level...I was using the denomination naming or labeling only for examples...

I do not believe eschatological issues to be "core beliefs."

I will say I like your list though...!

 

[OzSpen]

In my response I said "core beliefs" of orthodoxy...I think that would put the field level...I was using the denomination naming or labeling only for examples...

I do not believe eschatological issues to be "core beliefs."

I will say I like your list though...!

When you said you don't believe eschatological issues should be 'core beliefs', I agreed, but took that to mean whether a person was amill, postmill, premill, pretrib, midtrib, posttrib. I don't think those should be 'core beliefs'.

However, I do believe one of the core beliefs should affirm Christ's second coming and what happens to those who have died and are living on earth when he comes. I consider that the nature of eternal life and eternal damnation should be among 'core beliefs'.

Do you want to exclude anything relating to Christ's second coming as 'core beliefs'. Do you believe he is coming again?

Oz

 

[justaname]

When you said you don't believe eschatological issues should be 'core beliefs', I agreed, but took that to mean whether a person was amill, postmill, premill, pretrib, midtrib, posttrib. I don't think those should be 'core beliefs'.

However, I do believe one of the core beliefs should affirm Christ's second coming and what happens to those who have died and are living on earth when he comes. I consider that the nature of eternal life and eternal damnation should be among 'core beliefs'.

Do you want to exclude anything relating to Christ's second coming as 'core beliefs'. Do you believe he is coming again?

Oz

Honestly I think we are in agreement in accordance with the list...although some of the wording can suggest timing regarding the eschatology...

I want to mull it over a bit and get back later though...I didn't study it too much, just read it over...

And YES I DO BELIEVE HE IS COMING AGAIN!!!!!

 

[ewq1938]

You continue to impose your idiosyncratic understanding of personhood on Scripture. I provided abundance evidence that demonstrates the Holy Spirit is a person, but you won't acknowledge it.

You are making your own list of what constitutes a person rather than using how scripture does. Mine is based on scripture, yours is based on human logic which then misuses various scriptures as supposed support. Being grieved or lied to does not a person make Sir.

To the contrary, the Holy Spirit is not a spirit of a person (your view), but the Holy Spirit is a person who has personal attributes and He acts as a person.

Personification does not a person make!

Your comparison of 'my own personal spirit' is invalid because we are dealing with a supernatural person.

It is very valid.

I am left to conclude that you don't want to receive the Scriptures I have provided to demonstrate the personhood of the Holy Spirit.

They only demonstrate personification not personhood. Nothing is a person without a body soul and spirit.

.

 

[ewq1938]

ewq,

The issue at stake is that a person, Joyful, did not state that she doesn't 'understand the Trinity'. That is your imposition. She said she was 'non-trin'. In other words, her belief is in a non-trinitarian god. That is, she is unitarian, Arian. She did not cast doubt on her not being able to understand the Trinity. She declared categorically she is non-trin.

Which clearly proves she does not understand that God is a Trinity. She is still a Christian because her Messiah is Jesus Christ of Nazareth the same Messiah you and I and Trinitarians follow.

This is nothing more than one Christian tossing stones at another. No wonder the Body is in such bad shape and in severe division. Understanding the Trinity properly is not a salvational issue.

 

[OzSpen]

Honestly I think we are in agreement in accordance with the list...although some of the wording can suggest timing regarding the eschatology...

I want to mull it over a bit and get back later though...I didn't study it too much, just read it over...

And YES I DO BELIEVE HE IS COMING AGAIN!!!!!

I'm sorry if I inferred anything to do with the time of Christ's second coming. I don't know the time of the 2nd eschaton; neither did Jesus when he was on earth. I agree that core beliefs should exclude any suggestion about the time of the 2nd coming as I don't know when it will happen. But I know it will!

 

[OzSpen]

Which clearly proves she does not understand that God is a Trinity. She is still a Christian because her Messiah is Jesus Christ of Nazareth the same Messiah you and I and Trinitarians follow.

This is nothing more than one Christian tossing stones at another. No wonder the Body is in such bad shape and in severe division. Understanding the Trinity properly is not a salvational issue.

That is your imposition. She said not a word about not understanding. She declared she is non-Trinitarian. If she is non-Trinitarian, her Messiah is not the same as the Messiah whom I worship. He is equally God with Father and Holy Spirit. He is fully God and fully man. A non-Trinitarian does NOT believe Jesus is God. Thus she is worshipping another messiah.

The body of Christ is in bad shape because of your kind of wishy-washy theology where you want to declare a non-Trinitarian is a Christian.

Understanding the Trinity is a salvational issue because it deals with the nature of the God who provides salvation. If he is not God in Trinity, he is a false god - according to Scripture.

I will not budge on this issue because it is foundational.

 

[ewq1938]

That is your imposition. She said not a word about not understanding.

lol, why would she? She thinks she understands God as one not three but she does misunderstand.

She declared she is non-Trinitarian. If she is non-Trinitarian, her Messiah is not the same as the Messiah whom I worship.

That's nonsense.

A non-Trinitarian does NOT believe Jesus is God. Thus she is worshipping another messiah.

No, same Jesus but she has a faulty understanding of his pre-incarnate existence.

The body of Christ is in bad shape because of your kind of wishy-washy theology where you want to declare a non-Trinitarian is a Christian.

No, it's the Christian against Christian insanity that both sides are warring about. Shame on both sides that engage in this unChristian judging of each other.

Understanding the Trinity is a salvational issue because it deals with the nature of the God who provides salvation.

It is not a salvational issue and you did not provide a good argument for it being salvational.

If he is not God in Trinity, he is a false god - according to Scripture.

Yes but that doesn't mean those who are miseducated believe in a false God. Their knowledge of God is limited.

I will not budge on this issue because it is foundational.

Error never wants to budge so I'm not surprised at your declaration.

 

[ewq1938]

I'm sorry if I inferred anything to do with the time of Christ's second coming.

Friendly correction....I believe you are wanting to use "implied" rather than inferred. Infer would be from someone who read what you wrote and got a certain knowledge from it, where imply would be when you are trying to give some knowledge to the other person. In this case I think you are saying you didn't intend to imply (not infer) the timing of the second coming was needed in core beliefs. In the original post you implied the second coming was possible a core belief and justaname inferred that you were saying that. And from your above post, you did not intend to imply the timing of second coming was a core belief.

 

[StanJ]

You have not proven they worship a false god anymore than they prove Trinitarians worship a false god. The level of judgment on both sides is despicable. Besides, not fully understanding the Trinity doesn't equal a different God, nor a false gospel. It's merely a lack of knowledge about God.

The Bible is very clear that Jesus is our God and savior so anyone who says Jesus is their savior but not their God is not saved and does not know God. Very simple really.

 

[StanJ]

Everyone,

Salvation is conditional. If we want eternal life, we have to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, meaning we must obey everything He commands us.

How do we know? Jesus says "if you love Me, keep My commands." If we don't love Jesus, there is no salvation. It is that simple concept.

You either accept ALL Jesus says or you don't....in your case you don't so why do you expect your exhortations will hold ANY water?

 

[StanJ]

I don't care for the "god" of anyone who is wrongly and/or judgmental. That wasn't clear enough before?

Oz's God is my God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The God of the OT and NT. The ONLY true God, and our savior.
Is that the God you don't care for?

 

[StanJ]

You are making your own list of what constitutes a person rather than using how scripture does. Mine is based on scripture, yours is based on human logic which then misuses various scriptures as supposed support. Being grieved or lied to does not a person make Sir.

and YOU are striving about words, for no real gain, to the subverting of the hearers. I've known Oz for some time now, and His views are informed and based on sound hermeneutical exegesis.

 

[ewq1938]

and YOU are striving about words, for no real gain, to the subverting of the hearers. I've known Oz for some time now, and His views are informed and based on sound hermeneutical exegesis.

Not on this issue.

1Jn_2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

1Jn_2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

1Jn_3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

1Jn_4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

 

[OzSpen]

You are making your own list of what constitutes a person rather than using how scripture does. Mine is based on scripture, yours is based on human logic which then misuses various scriptures as supposed support. Being grieved or lied to does not a person make Sir.

You cannot grieve and lie to an IT.

Please don't be so condescending as to refer to me as 'Sir'. That's insulting.

 

[OzSpen]

Friendly correction....I believe you are wanting to use "implied" rather than inferred. Infer would be from someone who read what you wrote and got a certain knowledge from it, where imply would be when you are trying to give some knowledge to the other person. In this case I think you are saying you didn't intend to imply (not infer) the timing of the second coming was needed in core beliefs. In the original post you implied the second coming was possible a core belief and justaname inferred that you were saying that. And from your above post, you did not intend to imply the timing of second coming was a core belief.

You happen to be in error.

The meaning of 'infer' (dictionary.com) is:
3.to guess; speculate; surmise.
4. to hint; imply; suggest.

According to the dictionary 'infer' and 'imply' are synonymous terms.

 

[StanJ]

Not on this issue.

1Jn_2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jn_2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
1Jn_3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn_4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

He that quotes the KJV without understanding, does NOT understand.

 

[OzSpen]

He that quotes the KJV without understanding, does NOT understand.

Dost thou understandeth what thou writest?

 

[OzSpen]

Oz's God is my God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The God of the OT and NT. The ONLY true God, and our savior.
Is that the God you don't care for?

Thanks, mate!

Our God is the Trinitarian Lord God Almighty. He is the God disclosed in creation and whose nature is revealed in Scripture.

I think this discussion does raise some issues about what isn't being taught too often in churches Down Under (it also was my experience when living in Canada and the USA). Many local churches are weak in teaching biblical theology from pulpit and in the Sunday School classroom (adult and children). Not too much Sunday School for adults in my part of the world.

This is one of the reasons why there is such a libertarian attitude towards those who espouse non-biblical teaching.

Keep up the good work, my brother in Christ.

Oz