The Other Sheep;

[GodsGrace]

so you say, but they had that word back then, so you now have to explain why they did not just use it there imo.

They had what word back then?
God revealed Himself to the Hebrews, or Abraham, who would become the first Hebrew.
The gentiles were everyone else...
Babylonians
Egyptians
Greek
They worshipped many gods, they didn't know God until Paul introduced Him to them and have them His name.

 

[H. Richard]

There is no scripture posted in the O.P. supporting your position.
I've posted scripture supporting mine.

You only posted that Jesus said there are other sheep. It's understood that this is what you want to discuss.

You must also support this belief of yours, which is not right BTW.

***Not right you say. On what do you base your opinion which I can say is not right?

My OP is based on the words of Jesus as He said them. What do you base your ideas on? If you chose to ignore the words that is your problem, not mine. Isn't it wonderful? My OP is based on the words in a scripture and you want me to spend time arguing with you about it. As you can see many will ignore the scripture I gave and substitute other scriptures in other places to try and get around the obvious truth in the scripture I posted.

Now if you think I am going to continue to reply to you think again. Since what I believe is not right, according to you, why would I waste my time in a discussion with you?

 

[bbyrd009]

bb !
If TRUTH is not an absolute, it cannot be TRUTH.

so you say, but i observe that Inuit do just fine without our dietary "truths"

I can state truths:
JESUS DIED.
JESUS RESURRECTED.
HE LIVED 2,000 YEARS AGO.
AS THE 2ND PERSON HE ALWAYS WAS.

So much other...

and these are either "facts" or they are "beliefs," but they are different from "truths" as in "unassailable doctrines."
JESUS DIED.--Jesus resurrected, and you are relying on witnesses here, you have no personal experience of this "absolute truth."
JESUS RESURRECTED.--this is a belief, one i happen to share with you, but we have no proof, and there are believers in God who can justify a doctrine that does not agree with this, although i am not fam enough with the doctrine to comment.
HE LIVED 2,000 YEARS AGO.--same as above, with the addition here that Nazareth is reliably reported to have been deserted in the 1st century ad.
AS THE 2ND PERSON HE ALWAYS WAS.--i mean listen to yourself now, where you have gone here in an attempt to demonstrate "absolute truth" lol. Are you sure He isn't the 3rd person? Or even really the only, and thus the 1st, "person?"

so imo we should better define "truth" here as separate from "facts," and note how your positions above do not even rise to "facts," as they cannot be documented, demonstrated, or duplicated.

 

[bbyrd009]

and the concept only gets worse when you try to assert doctrines as "truth," which is really the point here, in seeking "absolute truth." Examining the doctrines of men, that are forwarded as Absolute Scriptural Truth, even though each has an equally Supportable counter-doctrine.

 

[bbyrd009]

We must not be talking about the same thing...
You're too intelligent to have said the above...

intelligence kept me from this truth, it did not lead me toward it. My intelligence suggests to me that i can in fact describe an absolute truth; Men die, and do not resurrect.

 

[bbyrd009]

They had what word back then?

"Gentile."

 

[Job]

Now if you think I am going to continue to reply to you think again. Since what I believe is not right, according to you, why would I waste my time in a discussion with you?

Such childish behavior. "If you don't believe what I believe, I'm not going to speak to you". You sound like a little girl on the playground who won't let others see her new doll unless they say it is the best doll in the world.

One can be obstinate without being rude.

The reason you won't support your belief is because you can't. It's weak and indefensible. While others use scripture in their defense, all you have is an opinion.

I'm really sorry I wasted any time here. I can get more understanding watching the grass grow than anything you have say.

 

[Job]

Good thought. I am still intrigued. I see two points to bring up.


The sons of the stranger could fit the gentiles. But it also says they will keep his sabbath "from polluting it". Does that describe the gentiles? The gentiles are not required to keep the Sabbath, but what of polluting it?

1. Are the gentiles to keep the sabbath?
2. Are they required to keep it and not pollute it?
3. Do they not have to keep it but they shouldn't pollute it?
4. Or... Does it not matter to the gentile at all?

Again, just brainstorming talking points.

Second point: H Richard provided points which seem to work out. I see his reasoning and am listening. But they are not points that clearly make his point. They fit, but that doesn't make it right.

Its the same with you. It could fit, but there is no clearcut evidence to link verse with John 10:16.

People seem to forget these passages even exist. Gentiles aren't required to uphold the physical attributes of the Mosaic Law.



Mark 12
31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Romans 13
10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Galatians 5
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

 

[amadeus]

this suggests truth as an absolute, when we cannot state any absolute truth, it seems to me.

Actually we can for Jesus did. The problem is that people do not fully understand what He meant for if they did then their understanding of truth would be absolute:


"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

He is the "absolute" truth, but who really understands Jesus completely, absolutely?

Not one!

I would suggest that the problem is entirely one of perception, and not inception, as is intimated. And strangely enough, it is our perception that we are called to change; "change your mind." Truth becomes seen for what it is, a moving target, that cannot be pinned down by a law, without exception.

And it is not that Truth [Jesus] is changing for he is not. If anything is changing so that the perception of Him is clearer, it is the viewer [you or I] that is changing or being changed. We can correctly use scripture to pin now a description of Jesus, but then the verses themselves which we use for that purpose will also be misconstrued. I may understand a certain point perfectly in describing what Jesus [Truth] is and you may understand it as well, but on other points we are still likely to be in different places. Other believer will differ from us in the point in which we agreed.

So then when and where is the "face to face" of I Cor 13:12? When all of us get there then will not we be seeing absolute truth? In the meantime, we are the ones that are moving (or should be) toward that "face to face". Anyone standing still will be drifting farther from Truth all of the time.

 

[GodsGrace]

"Gentile."

Sorry.
I thought you meant THE WORD!!

Are the commandments (decalogue) absolute truths to you?

 

[amadeus]

We must not be talking about the same thing...
You're too intelligent to have said the above...

The intelligence of man has little to do with knowing the truth which Jesus is. Any other truth, if it exists, could not or should not be important to a follow of Christ in any case.

 

[GodsGrace]

The intelligence of man has little to do with knowing the truth which Jesus is. Any other truth, if it exists, could not or should not be important to a follow of Christ in any case.

I was surprised.
I didn't mean that only the intelligent could understand God OR scripture.
I know some persons that have never held a bible and know God better and understand His precepts better than some bible-toting Christians.
And I put myself in there...

 

[amadeus]

Jesus said:

John 10:16
16 And other sheep “””I have””” which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
NKJV

It is a common belief that the other sheep are those that are saved under grace; today’s gospel. But the scripture does not support this idea. The words “I HAVE” are present tense, not future tense; In other words he has them already.

So who are they? They are all the men and women before Abraham and the nation of Israel that God had because of their belief in Him. Men like Job, Jonah, Noah, the people of Nineveh that repented etc.

I know that the theology of the religious churches today do not want this to be true and this thread will become a battle ground. Go to it. I have had my say and the words of what Jesus said will not change. But many will twist it around to support their theology.

Your logic seems good and likely the ones you mentioned specifically would be included in the other fold, but time is often a problem in communicating about the things of God.

"Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." John 8:57-58

Time is for man, but not for God who is outside of time and NOT affected by it. This means that the "other sheep" could also include those which for man would seem to be in the future in spite of any grammatical tenses.

 

[amadeus]

I was surprised.
I didn't mean that only the intelligent could understand God OR scripture.
I know some persons that have never held a bible and know God better and understand His precepts better than some bible-toting Christians.
And I put myself in there...

I have also once met an illiterate man who was unable to read a Bible in any language but according to my discernment showed better fruits than many of those [probably including myself] who could and did read the Bible. A person with intelligence can used of God in special ways as in the case of the apostle Paul who was a very well educated man long before he met Jesus. But, before he met Jesus he was very very wrong. Before his Damascus road encounter he misunderstood and misused the knowledge of scripture that he did already have.

 

[bbyrd009]

So then when and where is the "face to face" of I Cor 13:12? When all of us get there then will not we be seeing absolute truth?

hmm. I would suggest "today" as the when--for as long as it is called "today" at least--and i would suggest the reflections of the rich man v the ones of Lazarus, "separated by a gulf," for the other.

 

[bbyrd009]

Sorry.
I thought you meant THE WORD!!

Are the commandments (decalogue) absolute truths to you?

hmm. They are until one of them is broken, yes; then they become ideals, not truths. For we can observe that despite "Don't do murder," people still murder

 

[bbyrd009]

The intelligence of man has little to do with knowing the truth which Jesus is. Any other truth, if it exists, could not or should not be important to a follow of Christ in any case.

i am convinced that if one cannot explain something so that an eight year old can understand it, it is highly suspect

 

[amadeus]

hmm. I would suggest "today" as the when--for as long as it is called "today" at least--and i would suggest the reflections of the rich man v the ones of Lazarus, "separated by a gulf," for the other.

So often our problem with understanding comes back to time and either not knowing or forgetting what time does or does not mean to God. This supports my own belief that a person can see Him "face to face" before physical death. Perhaps even a person must see Him "face to face" before physical death.

"I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." John 9:4

We should look into just what day is and what night is to God... and what they should be to us. Looking at those things then go to this verse:

"And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever." Rev 22:5

 

[amadeus]

i am convinced that if one cannot explain something so that an eight year old can understand it, it is highly suspect

This reminds me of my years working for Uncle Sam. Supposedly all of the form letters and the form paragraphs that were used by Social Security to advise people in writing of necessary information were written at a ninth grade [age 14?] level. In spite of this a great many high school graduates and more than a few with some college required additional explanations to understand their letters received. When they were referred by front desk workers back to me, I regularly understood very well why they could not understand. Of course, it is a two way street. Many of our letters were difficult for anyone to understand and some of the recipients did not really learn much in school even though they had their diplomas and/or degrees.

God, however, does speak to people hearts and what He speaks they understand even when the PHD's are often left in the dark.

 

[Angelina]

The truth is knowable otherwise Jesus would not have suggested it. John 8:31-32