The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus

[marks]

@marks you on holiday?

No. However. My normal online activity is weekdays, and sometimes on Saturday. Not evenings, not Sunday.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

When it comes to defining the place and events where Lazarus and the rich man went to after they died, with their bodies being buried, that part of the story is about real things. We well know that Paradise exists even from other New Testament Scriptures. So one may call the story a parable, but the parameters in it that Jesus showed are about real things.

But some appear to want to change this point, and try to make it sound like Jesus was making up a parable, and thus ALSO making up those events about where Lazarus and the rich man went to, and the great fixed gulf idea in Paradise too.

 

[marks]

When it comes to defining the place and events where Lazarus and the rich man went to after they died, with their bodies being buried, that part of the story is about real things. We well know that Paradise exists even from other New Testament Scriptures. So one may call the story a parable, but the parameters in it that Jesus showed are about real things.

But some appear to want to change this point, and try to make it sound like Jesus was making up a parable, and thus ALSO making up those events about where Lazarus and the rich man went to, and the great fixed gulf idea in Paradise too.

There is another doctrine being protected here, that when you die that's the end of you. Therefore, you can't REALLY have conscious people in the heart of the earth, can you?

Much love!

 

[Davy]

There is another doctrine being protected here, that when you die that's the end of you. Therefore, you can't REALLY have conscious people in the heart of the earth, can you?

Much love!

Yes, I covered that point in another similar Thread like this one.

The orthodox Jews believe Genesis 2:7 means the 'soul' is part of our flesh body, and it dies when our flesh dies, and that it only comes back to life with our flesh body at the resurrection.

The New Testament gives us more detail of what happens, our soul with spirit is separated from our flesh body at flesh death. Even Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 reveals this separation with the severing of the "silver cord" mentioned there.

Also, the New Testament reveals that the future resurrection body 'type' is a "spiritual body", not our old flesh body raised from the literal ground (1 Corinthians 15). But still, there are many Christian Churches today that preach that old false Jewish tradition of 'dead in the ground'.

 

[face2face]

This is a perfect example. I didn't say that Abraham has or has not received the promises or been made perfect, but I did say he is alive, as the Bible declares.

So you've added a straw man to my statements. That's not good discussion.

Again . . . God was declared the God of Abraham, and Jesus testified that Abraham yet lived, as God is the God of the living, not the dead.

Simple statements like this tells us the ground rules. Abraham, though having died in this world, still lives before God.

I believe it, you do not.

Much love!

Where does the Bible say he is alive?

 

[face2face]

Yes, I covered that point in another similar Thread like this one.

The orthodox Jews believe Genesis 2:7 means the 'soul' is part of our flesh body, and it dies when our flesh dies, and that it only comes back to life with our flesh body at the resurrection.

The New Testament gives us more detail of what happens, our soul with spirit is separated from our flesh body at flesh death. Even Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 reveals this separation with the severing of the "silver cord" mentioned there.

Also, the New Testament reveals that the future resurrection body 'type' is a "spiritual body", not our old flesh body raised from the literal ground (1 Corinthians 15). But still, there are many Christian Churches today that preach that old false Jewish tradition of 'dead in the ground'.

The New & Old are in perfect union on the subject of the cessation of life after death. Soul & Spirit (Life & Character) are clearly defined everywhere in the NT. Quoting the Resurrection chapter should have you fully over the truth that immortality is "put on" and its not naturally part of man.
Obvious to me anyways.

 

[face2face]

I've witnessed too many times to count, the belief that the wicked are sent to some fiery place of torment, though I've not heard them say Heaven and Hell have windows opened for chitchat, it’s not much of a Paradise in the Kingdom of God if you can look out the window at those in Hell writhing in agony and flames!

Unfortunately the Bible never seems to say what people want it to say when it comes to these mainstream doctrines.

I'd like to take a detour now to explore this false teaching of Hell going by looking at the record of Josephus. There is a lot to get through so we shall take it section by section. I think you will be surprised just how far the Pharisee / orthodox Jew had fallen away from the truth of the Torah.

JOSEPHUS’S DISCOURSE TO THE GREEKS CONCERNING HADES

NOW as to Hades, wherein the souls of the of the good things they see, and rejoice in the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, ill which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who
distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one’s behavior and manners.

Up to the bold text you, would be right to suggest the grave is an apt figure for his description, however, he moves into error very quickly. If, as we suggest, the Master designed this parable in Luke 16 to show forth the judgements on those who hold such views, and are condemned for such ill behavior as the Rich Man, then we have real evidence here that such beliefs were held by the Orthodox Jews at the time of Christ.

The uniqueness of the Parable and the obscurity of any teaching in the Torah weigh heavily in favour of Jesus using their false teachings against them in Luke 16.

F2F

 

[Davy]

Where does the Bible say he is alive?

If you're gonna' come here and try to act like a Christian, you could have at least done some homework in The New Testament Scriptures instead of just studying your Torah Judaism studies...

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV


Luke 23:43
43 And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise."
KJV

 

[Davy]

The New & Old are in perfect union on the subject of the cessation of life after death.

Sure are, because Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 reveals that if the "silver cord" is severed, then our flesh goes back to the earthly elements where it came from, but our 'spirit' goes back to God Who gave it. That 'spirit' part includes... our soul. They are linked together in that 'other' dimension called the heavenly.

Likewise in 1 Kings 17 with Elijah praying for God to bring back the soul of the dead child, that also is Old Testament evidence that the 'soul' leaves the flesh body, and is a separate entity from the flesh body.

In Matthew 10:28 Jesus said for us to not fear those who can kill our flesh body but NOT our soul. That right there ought to reveal to your common sense that the soul does NOT die with our flesh.

And the Old Testament used the word 'spirit' to point to people just as the New Testament does also, like 1 Peter 3 with Jesus at His resurrection preaching to the "spirits in prison", meaning those who had died that were in the heavenly prison. And that was actually a prophecy in Isaiah 42:6-7 that Jesus would do that, and lead the prisoners out of darkness of that heavenly prison house. Otherwise, just HOW did the following happen right after Jesus gave up the ghost on His cross?

Matt 27:52-53
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV

No, what you have believed is simply a DOCTRINE OF MEN who thought they understood what happens at flesh death, but actually do not, and still... dwell on that old misinterpretation of Genesis 2:7.

Gen 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV

God formed the flesh body of Adam, and then 'breathed' Adam's spirit-soul into it, and THAT is what made Adam a "living soul", pointing to Adam's spirit placed into a flesh shell with his spirit (and soul) connected to his flesh via a "silver cord", an invisible cord we cannot see that if severed, the flesh then goes back to the earthly elements, but the spirit & soul goes back to God.

 

[face2face]

If you're gonna' come here and try to act like a Christian, you could have at least done some homework in The New Testament Scriptures instead of just studying your Torah Judaism studies...

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV

So... in your own words can you describe what you think these references mean to you? I know what they mean, but i'd like to hear your thoughts first. Same goes with those below?

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV


Luke 23:43
43 And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise."
KJV

I'll refrain from comment until I better grasp your understanding - please check the context first as this is often important.
F2F

 

[Davy]

So... in your own words can you describe what you think these references mean to you? I know what they mean, but i'd like to hear your thoughts first. Same goes with those below?


I'll refrain from comment until I better grasp your understanding - please check the context first as this is often important.
F2F

Nah,... you don't have a clue... as to what they mean, otherwise you would have believe what Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 about the 'soul' does not die with the flesh.

Just like the Judaizers Jewish Pharisee converts that Apostle Paul had to deal with in Galatians, you think you can come here and just 'lord' it over everybody because of your following Jewish traditions. I SEE YOU, so you don't fool me one bit! So your interpretation of Scripture to me is like dung, made to fall to the wayside.

 

[face2face]

Sure are, because Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 reveals that if the "silver cord" is severed, then our flesh goes back to the earthly elements where it came from, but our 'spirit' goes back to God Who gave it. That 'spirit' part includes... our soul. They are linked together in that 'other' dimension called the heavenly.

I've seen you reference this quote earlier.

Lets put these verse's up and consider them shall we?

So you understand this chapter is describing the terrible affects of aging something i've come to know all to well of late.

Eccles 12:5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:

Afraid of that which is high = Fear of height
Almond tree = greying of hair
Long home = the grave!

6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

The figure is a golden lamp, suspended from a beam by a long silver cord. When the cord breaks, then the lamp plummets to the floor and is shattered into pieces -- spilling all its oil, and extinguishing its light forever.

Clearly you can see the progression - I'm not a smart man but very logical!

It likened to "Humpty Dumpty" who cannot be put back together again... not by the best and most prolonged efforts of man!

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

His last breathe (spirit) is expelled he returns to the dust from whence he was taken!

As eloquent a passage on aging as you will ever get in the Bible.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Nah,... you don't have a clue...

As you say...if you dont want to enter the Word

 

[face2face]

6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

I dont often reply to my own posts but this is worthy of noting:

These are what we call figures of speech - I'm sure you know this!

They are elaborate as they portray the human body rather beautifully.

(1) the silver cord = the spinal cord
(2) the golden bowl = the head, and skull
(3) the pitcher = the kidneys;
(4) the wheel = the heart (which lifts and carries, pumps the blood through our body).

Any one of these fails the whole body quickly perishes.

Needless to say there is nothing in this text which speaks of immortality of a divine essence or the like.

Just good old Hebrew Poetry.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Likewise in 1 Kings 17 with Elijah praying for God to bring back the soul of the dead child, that also is Old Testament evidence that the 'soul' leaves the flesh body, and is a separate entity from the flesh body.

You reference 1 Kings 17:22

22. The Lord heard Elijah’s cry, and the boy’s life returned to him, and he lived.

So the child was completely dead and he was revived by the power of God i.e his life restored.

23 Elijah picked up the child and carried him down from the room into the house. He gave him to his mother and said, “Look, your son is alive!”

So there is nothing here of an ethereal essence leaving the boy and returning - only the miracle of a boy who is dead (completely) and who is made alive.

I know what you would need to have said here for your belief to be validated but its just not taught.

F2F

 

[face2face]

In Matthew 10:28 Jesus said for us to not fear those who can kill our flesh body but NOT our soul. That right there ought to reveal to your common sense that the soul does NOT die with our flesh.

Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Always an issue for those who believe in the immortal soul for something which is immortal is indestructible therefore it cannot mean what you want it to! Gods divine essence in any shape or form cannot be destroyed! Impossible!

Also the use of "Gehenna i.e hell" is highly interesting...being a garbage dump outside the walls of Jerusalem, this shows you the soul is as destructible as the body, since both can be destroyed in the same place.

Do you want this from this passage?

Have a rethink and come back to me!

F2F

 

[face2face]

Gen 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV

God formed the flesh body of Adam, and then 'breathed' Adam's spirit-soul into it, and THAT is what made Adam a "living soul", pointing to Adam's spirit placed into a flesh shell with his spirit (and soul) connected to his flesh via a "silver cord", an invisible cord we cannot see that if severed, the flesh then goes back to the earthly elements, but the spirit & soul goes back to God.

Hey, I dont want to belittle your beliefs, even though I know it can come across that way sometimes.

For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.

This is the reason we have the resurrection in Christ Jesus.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Davy out of interest, how did you find the Eccles 12 interpretation?

 

[MatthewG]

The book of Ecc is classifed as poetry, and wisdom.

 

[MatthewG]

The only 5 books described as poetry and wisdom.