The (potential) Treachery of Doctrine > My way, or the highway >

[Lizbeth]

Follow-up to the topic: The potential conceit of doctrinal individuality

Got it all figured out?

- You read the Bible cover-to-cover. Good for you. Kudos.
- You read up on doctrine and apologetics. Good.
- You arrived at a position on nearly any biblical topic, or doctrine. Check.
- Now you are ready to kick some butt. Say what?

What's wrong with this picture?
Is this why we read the Bible and study?
Do we measure maturity by personal KNOWLEDGE, or by personal TRANSFORMATION ?

These scriptures answer that question in a beautiful way........knowledge and transformation go hand in hand.

Eph 4:17-24

This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

But ye have not so learned Christ;

If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


Col 3:5-10

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:


Bible says the ENTRANCE of the word giveth LIGHT. Jesus is the light of the world. I take it that in receiving/accepting His word we are receiving Christ who is the Word and thus it is transforming us. IF and when we RECEIVE IT (eat/ingest) rather than rejecting it or wresting it, or explaining it away. It’s not about carnal head knowledge, but about receiving the word on wings of the Spirit, thus it enters our HEARTS and both gives us understanding (light) as well as transforms us, not just entering our brains. It washes us of our wrong ways of sin and unrighteousness. The mind of Christ that we receive is not carnal brain activity which the bible says cannot perceive things of the spirit, but it is His spiritual mind which gives us understanding.


Col 1:9-12

For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

THAT ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

 

[St. SteVen]

Thanks for sharing that song. I hadn't heard any Sara Groves music in quite a while. I need to catch up.

I want to be an encouragement to you. Compared to many others that I interact with on the forum
you are always easy to talk to. And typically bring a nugget of wisdom to the discussion.
And are quick to see the humor in a situation. I appreciate you. Press on...

/

 

[St. SteVen]

These scriptures answer that question in a beautiful way........knowledge and transformation go hand in hand.

As indeed they should.

/

 

[Lambano]

I want to be an encouragement to you.

You are, and I appreciate it.

 

[Lizbeth]

@Lizbeth
Someone just gave me a ThumbsUp on this post.
Who is this speaking to? Believers, or unbelievers?

/ @amadeus

This was mentioned on the other thread, and it is talking to believers. Some believers unfortunately may end up being destroyed in hell if they don't straighten up their life and walk. Jesus is demonstrating the seriousness of sin by saying it is better to cut off the sinning parts in this life than to end up in hell after this life is done. While all believers are salted/seasoned with fire, just a sprinkling of light and momentary troubles, not so as to be destroyed utterly, but for our good so as to be sanctified and purified. (And the bible says who is without chastisement are illegitimate children.) This is judgment beginning with the house of God. We taste of His consuming fire, and it is painful at times.

 

[St. SteVen]

Some believers unfortunately may end up being destroyed in hell if they don't straighten up their life and walk.

My position on OSAS is this:
We cannot by an act of our own will undo what only God could do in the first place.
Even in the case of reprobation it is God's choice, not ours.

Jesus is demonstrating the seriousness of sin by saying it is better to cut off the sinning parts in this life than to end up in hell after this life is done.

I believe this is in reference to a "hell" we will ALL pass through. We ALL have wood, hay, and stubble to burn up.
We will pay dearly for those sinning parts left unchecked. Weeping and gnashing of teeth. Like when you got saved. - LOL

While all believers are salted/seasoned with fire, just a sprinkling of light and momentary troubles...

Contextually, I connect that with the previous verses, not with the proceeding ones.
Though it does work as a segue.

/

 

[Ghada]

For us the fire should be trimming off the garbage now, that is the wood, hay and straw; and slaying the mighty powers of the flesh which oppose the new man; and burning away the cords which hold us in any sinful ways...

Well said. (But our body is not the enemy lying at the door. Just a head's up...)

For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

 

[amadeus]

Well said. (But our body is not the enemy lying at the door. Just a head's up...)

For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

We are stewards of our bodies to be certain. We are to be good stewards of all God has put into our hands. How well are we doing? How close are we to inheriting? Are we even moving in that direction? God knows all these things!

 

[Lizbeth]

My position on OSAS is this:
We cannot by an act of our own will undo what only God could do in the first place.
Even in the case of reprobation it is God's choice, not ours.

We can act according to our own will in such a way (keep on WILFULLY sinning) as to grieve the Spirit of God enough that He will depart one's temple. AKA that one would be fallen away/apostate and in mortal danger of their soul. The glory of the Lord departed the temple in Israel when they were grievously sinning (Ichabod)....happened to them as an example to us (bible).

 

[St. SteVen]

We can act according to our own will in such a way (keep on WILFULLY sinning) as to grieve the Spirit of God enough that He will depart one's temple. AKA that one would be fallen away/apostate and in mortal danger of their soul. The glory of the Lord departed the temple in Israel when they were grievously sinning (Ichabod)....happened to them as an example to us (bible).

I guess that aligns with your Gospel of Fear doctrines.

/

 

[Lizbeth]

I guess that aligns with your Gospel of Fear doctrines.

/

"My" doctrine? Oh my. I submit to you that anyone with doctrine that doesn't line up with scripture is THEIR doctrine and not God's. Why is the fear of the Lord such a hard concept to swallow? Is this meat too strong for those with a humanistic gospel that panders to people's fleshly emotions? Having and teaching/preaching a healthy fear of the Lord is a necessary and vital part of GOD'S true gospel.

Act 2:43

And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

Act 5:5

And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

Act 5:11

And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

Act 9:31

Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

Act 13:16

Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

Act 19:17

And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.


Rom 3:16-18

Destruction and misery are in their ways:

And the way of peace have they not known:

There is no fear of God before their eyes.


Rom 11:20-22

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


Rom 13:7

Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.


Eph 5:21

Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.


Eph 6:5

Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;


Phl 2:12

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1Ti 5:20

Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.


Heb 4:1

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Heb 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Heb 12:28

Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

1Pe 1:17

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

1Pe 2:17

Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

1Pe 3:15

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear

Rev 11:18

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 14:7

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.


Rev 15:4

Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.


Mal 3:16-18

Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.

And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

 

[St. SteVen]

My" doctrine? Oh my. I submit to you that anyone with doctrine that doesn't line up with scripture is THEIR doctrine and not God's.

That's preposterous. Though all too frequently claimed.
All doctrine is man-made. And many doctrines are in conflict with each other.
Who decides which doctrines line up with scripture and which ones don't?
Two people (or more) can have biblical doctrines that disagree.
A biblical basis is no guarantee of universal acceptance.

Why is the fear of the Lord such a hard concept to swallow? Is this meat too strong for those with a humanistic gospel that panders to people's fleshly emotions?

That's a curious, but not unexpected, way to prop up a barbaric unemotional and inhumane bulldozer religion.
Rambo religion.

Having and teaching/preaching a healthy fear of the Lord is a necessary and vital part of GOD'S true gospel.

I agree with a healthy respect for God.
Are you the arbiter of "GOD'S true gospel"?

/

 

[Lizbeth]

That's preposterous. Though all too frequently claimed.
All doctrine is man-made. And many doctrines are in conflict with each other.
Who decides which doctrines line up with scripture and which ones don't?
Two people (or more) can have biblical doctrines that disagree.
A biblical basis is no guarantee of universal acceptance.


That's a curious, but not unexpected, way to prop up a barbaric unemotional and inhumane bulldozer religion.
Rambo religion.
View attachment 38014


I agree with a healthy respect for God.
Are you the arbiter of "GOD'S true gospel"?

/

It's sad that all those scriptures that mention fear of the Lord seem to be wasted on some folks, whereas they should be blessed meat to our soul. I don't know if I'll take the time and effort to gather and post all the scriptures that talk about doctrine - there are a lot of those too.

Fear of the Lord is more than respect.....we can easily respect our equals and those who may not even be our equals in some ways but who have qualities we admire, etc, but fear has to do with acknowledging God's vast superiority and ability and right to rule over us as He pleases. In essence, it is worship and bowing and acquiescing to Him as GOD because He is worthy and that is what is due to Him. Not that He extorts it from anyone, that is man's way, not His. But in humility, meekness and longsuffering He looks at mankind - but we give Him our fear voluntarily as a response because of getting to know WHO He is and what He is worthy of and capable of, and our gratitude that One so great and mighty and holy and perfect has deigned to look upon such as we.

It is hard not to be reminded of the similarity that the serpent in the Garden liked to question God's word too....."Did God really say....?", and thus sowing doubt in His word by doing so, in place of faith. Because of trying to be more clever than God, and as if that serpent was trying to one-up Him. And actually that was the fall of Lucifer wasn't it, setting his throne ABOVE the stars of God.

 

[St. SteVen]

"My" doctrine? Oh my. I submit to you that anyone with doctrine that doesn't line up with scripture is THEIR doctrine and not God's.

You should consider how your own leanings toward Annihilationism fit with this idea of "God's doctrine". (not man-made)
What do you do with Damnationist biblical support? Like this one.

Matthew 25:46 NIV
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

/

 

[St. SteVen]

God's vast superiority and ability and right to rule over us as He pleases.

There it is. God presented as a cosmic tyrant.

/

 

[Lizbeth]

You should consider how your own leanings toward Annihilationism fit with this idea of "God's doctrine". (not man-made)
What do you do with Damnationist biblical support? Like this one.

Matthew 25:46 NIV
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

/

To begin with, it should be plenty enough to know that eternal punishment and hell is something we want to avoid at all costs, since we are being warned against it. We are offered only two options, life or death, so choose life for heaven's sake! We sure don't want to end up with the latter option do we? It doesn't sound good at all.

But I don't know how to resolve that verse up to now, I can only guess that it might have something to do with the fact that God and the spiritual realm exists outside of time. Or maybe just the fact that those who aren't granted eternal life, will be "dead" (damned/condemned) for eternity, meaning there will never be any coming back from that.

Where the bible speaks elsewhere about "the smoke of their torment rising forever", that could mean that it rises as a memorial (like incense or the smoke of the sacrifices) never to be forgotten. Wondered if it could serve as a warning and reminder to the remaining angels and the saints in heaven, that they not rebel against God and fall, but I don't know. It's all just speculation and wonderings.

There are things we mortals just can't get our heads around, unless it pleases the Lord to reveal a thing.

 

[Lizbeth]

That's a curious, but not unexpected, way to prop up a barbaric unemotional and inhumane bulldozer religion.

Human emotions are of the flesh and are fickle and prone to being exploited by the devil. I've been played like a fiddle at times in my life because in the flesh I can be empathetic to a fault. But we are not supposed to be in the flesh and ruled by our emotions, but in the spirit, where emotions are sanctified and under God's rule.

 

[Lizbeth]

There it is. God presented as a cosmic tyrant.

/

No. That's the problem with a humanistic gospel...it is always accusing God. The self righteousness of man accuses God of not being righteous enough. That's what the serpent in the Garden was doing...."oh, is that old meany withholding this beautiful fruit from you?" The Lord IS righteous and holy. He's looking for a willing Bride who loves Him, not going to force anybody into a forced marriage. Those who are unwilling will just find themselves before the judgment seat and in the lake of fire in the blink of an eye with no shotgun held to their head to force a decision at that time. Thief in the night...seems to imply no warning. Won't know the day or the hour until it happens. What Jesus said about as it was in the days of Noah and life going on as per usual also seems to imply the Day of the Lord will arrive suddenly.

The days of God's longsuffering while the ark was a-preparing (bible) and Noah had been preaching had come to an end and the door to the ark was shut. When that day came, whoever was in was in, and whoever was out was out. God's warnings are not to force and extort....there is a difference between force and fair warning. God leaves people free to choose to heed or not heed the advance warnings of what is plainly and simply coming. Those who are wise (because they fear the Lord) will choose wisely. Like the parable that Jesus told of one king with a smaller army had better seek terms of surrender because the King coming against him was much greater and had a much bigger army, lol. But people either don't believe the reports at all, or they think the King that is coming is just a teddy bear.

 

[St. SteVen]

But I don't know how to resolve that verse up to now,

Have you seen this analysis?

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word
mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below.
This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and
the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age?
Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of
the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world,
according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children
for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Human emotions are of the flesh and are fickle and prone to being exploited by the devil. I've been played like a fiddle at times in my life because in the flesh I can be empathetic to a fault. But we are not supposed to be in the flesh and ruled by our emotions, but in the spirit, where emotions are sanctified and under God's rule.

It sounds like you have swung too far out of a balanced view.
Emotions come into play in the fruit of the Spirit. Unless you think love, joy, peace, forbearance,
kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control should be emotionless expressions. ???

Galatians 5:22-23 NIV
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

/