The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Truth7t7]

Jesus returns prior to the AoD. Read Matthew 13.

Jesus Christ returns on "The Last Day" in fire and final judgment, as the resurrection of all takes place, as this earth is dissolved by fire (The End)

There won't be a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as you believe and teach, it's a fabricated fairy tale of man, found no place in scripture

 

[Timtofly]

Gods words clearly show (Two Israel's) below

1.) Israel of the flesh (Jews)

2.) Israel of the promised seed (Church)

Scripture clearly teaches Israel of the flesh, they aren't the children of God, it's that simple

Romans 9:6-8KJV

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Yes the Kingdom of God has been taken from National Ethnic Israel, And Given To The Church, a "Holy Nation" as clearly seen below

Matthew 21:43KJV

3 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2:9KJV

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

If you accept 2 Israels, why do you denigrate others who accept 2 Israels?

Certainly you then don't think one replaced the other, because that would be replacement.

The Millennium is not for the church. Thus now is not the Millennium, because now is for the church. Prior to the Cross, time was for Israel. Prior to Abraham, time was for all Gentile Nations. Noah was a righteous man, but it seems his offspring soon forgot that fact.

Now you can claim the Flood was not global, but that there were sons of God and wicked people on earth after the Flood, because obviously while accepting life on earth after the Flood, you reject life on earth after the Fire. But God is longsuffering and waited from the time of the Flood to the time of the Cross. Then has waited these last 1992 years, but now is not capable of another 1,000 years, because you feel that is a fairy tale? God does not base His longsuffering on your point His Millennium is a fairy tale. That is a good thing. The Millennium will happen with or without your consent.

Do you have issues that God is going to remove the kingdom from the church and hand it back to Israel? Sure the church has apostasized. So did Israel. But neither were removed solely for their apostasy. They were removed because no apostasy can be in charge. But more than that it was God's choice who would be His representative. God could have changed Israel and kept it the same but local Israeli churches, instead of a central Temple. In essence that is what happened symbolically. Except Judaism kept on being Judaism, because Judaism was never where it was at, after Babylon. The Temple was still central until the veil was torn at the Cross. The Temple could have remained until 1300 when the Muslims conquered the ME. It would have meant nothing just like it meant nothing in the 40 years between the Cross and 70AD.

Judaism was Israel rejecting God and the Covenant. The Temple being central in the Millennium is not because of the Covenant. It is because that is where Jesus as King rules from. A point you outright reject because you reject every OT Scripture that places Jesus as King on a throne in Jerusalem. Pre-mill do not reject Christ as King ruling from the right hand of God since the Cross. The 7th Trumpet clearly puts all of earth's kingdoms in submission to that authority. Unless you claim the 7th Trumpet sounded in the first century, then that submission is still future. Yet you outright deny and call Jesus as King a fairy tale in opposition to the 7th Trumpet and that declaration. Some Amil just symbolize it away. You call it an outright fairy tale.

 

[Truth7t7]

I believe in the Any-Time Rapture viewpoint. This would fall under believing in a potential Pre-Trib Rapture. The Lord told us to look and watch for He will come in a time we will not expect. This is what will lead a believer to truly live more holy and righteous within the faith (in honoring His grace). For if we believe the Lord will come waaay later we can just get ourselves ready for living for the Lord then (and it can potentially lead to beating our fellow servants). But Jesus wants us to live for Him today and every day we live out our faith until the end of our faith (When we die). For the just shall live by faith.

In other words, we should be living for the Lord as if He is coming to take us today.

Your belief in the "Anytime" rapture is the standard false teaching found in dispensationalism, nothing new

Scripture teaches the Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation and second coming of Jesus Christ

Luke 21:25-29KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[Truth7t7]

If you accept 2 Israels, why do you denigrate others who accept 2 Israels?

Certainly you then don't think one replaced the other, because that would be replacement.

The Millennium is not for the church. Thus now is not the Millennium, because now is for the church. Prior to the Cross, time was for Israel. Prior to Abraham, time was for all Gentile Nations. Noah was a righteous man, but it seems his offspring soon forgot that fact.

Now you can claim the Flood was not global, but that there were sons of God and wicked people on earth after the Flood, because obviously while accepting life on earth after the Flood, you reject life on earth after the Fire. But God is longsuffering and waited from the time of the Flood to the time of the Cross. Then has waited these last 1992 years, but now is not capable of another 1,000 years, because you feel that is a fairy tale? God does not base His longsuffering on your point His Millennium is a fairy tale. That is a good thing. The Millennium will happen with or without your consent.

Do you have issues that God is going to remove the kingdom from the church and hand it back to Israel? Sure the church has apostasized. So did Israel. But neither were removed solely for their apostasy. They were removed because no apostasy can be in charge. But more than that it was God's choice who would be His representative. God could have changed Israel and kept it the same but local Israeli churches, instead of a central Temple. In essence that is what happened symbolically. Except Judaism kept on being Judaism, because Judaism was never where it was at, after Babylon. The Temple was still central until the veil was torn at the Cross. The Temple could have remained until 1300 when the Muslims conquered the ME. It would have meant nothing just like it meant nothing in the 40 years between the Cross and 70AD.

Judaism was Israel rejecting God and the Covenant. The Temple being central in the Millennium is not because of the Covenant. It is because that is where Jesus as King rules from. A point you outright reject because you reject every OT Scripture that places Jesus as King on a throne in Jerusalem. Pre-mill do not reject Christ as King ruling from the right hand of God since the Cross. The 7th Trumpet clearly puts all of earth's kingdoms in submission to that authority. Unless you claim the 7th Trumpet sounded in the first century, then that submission is still future. Yet you outright deny and call Jesus as King a fairy tale in opposition to the 7th Trumpet and that declaration. Some Amil just symbolize it away. You call it an outright fairy tale.

No such thing as a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as you continue to claim, its a fabricated fairy tale of man found no place in scripture

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

 

[Timtofly]

No probs Truth7t7.
I see generation as this unbelieving race, while I see all believers as,

“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:”—1 Peter 2:9
God bless Bro'

Then you should have no problem with Jesus as Messiah in the first century, and Jesus as King at the Second Coming. This whole generation of Christ is the 70th week. Started at the baptism of Jesus, and ends with the 7th Trumpet.

Jesus is the 70th week of Daniel 9. A whole generation lasting 7 years.

Obviously 70AD had nothing to do with it, as that was just another day in history like every other war on earth, between Jesus's baptism and the 7th Trumpet.

 

[Timtofly]

Hi Light,
Lets look at all 3

Mk 13
13 As He was coming out of the temple [grounds], one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, look what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!” 2 Jesus replied to him, “You see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left on another which will not be torn down!”

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked Him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign when all these things are about to be fulfilled?”

Matt 24
Jesus left the temple area and was going on His way when His disciples came up to Him to call His attention to the [magnificent and massive] buildings of the temple. 2 And He said to them, “Do you see all these things? I assure you and most solemnly say to you, not one stone here will be left on another, which will not be torn down.”

3 While Jesus was seated on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, and said, “Tell us, when will this [destruction of the temple] take place, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end (completion, consummation) of the age?”


Lk 21
As some were talking about the temple, that it was decorated with beautiful stones and consecrated offerings [of magnificent gifts of gold which were displayed on the walls and hung in the porticoes], He said, 6 “As for all these things which you see, the time will come when there will not be one stone left on another that will not be torn down.”
7 They asked Him, “Teacher, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign when these things are about to happen?”

Jesus had this conversation once, and gave it privately to Peter, James, John and Andrew....see mk 13:3.
Any one of these disciples would have conveyed the information to either Matthew, Mark or Luke to write it down.

Did you purposely conveniently not continue quoting Luke 21?

"And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls. And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people."

All of this was addressed to those at the temple.

 

[The Light]

Where do you get Pretrib in the Bible?

When do you think he's coming? Take that time and apply this to start off.
Matt 24
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus Christ returns on "The Last Day" in fire and final judgment, as the resurrection of all takes place, as this earth is dissolved by fire (The End)

There won't be a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as you believe and teach, it's a fabricated fairy tale of man, found no place in scripture

You mean "your last day" copyright?

There is no "The Last Day" at the Second Coming.

The Second Coming is prior to the AoD.

The generation of the parable of the fig tree, will have a last day, but the earth will go on. No one lives forever in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Most of humanity have had their last day. They are all physically dead.

 

[Truth7t7]

You mean "your last day" copyright?

There is no "The Last Day" at the Second Coming.

The Second Coming is prior to the AoD.

The generation of the parable of the fig tree, will have a last day, but the earth will go on. No one lives forever in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Most of humanity have had their last day. They are all physically dead.

Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgment, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

There won't be a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as you believe and teach, it's a fabricated man made fairy tale

 

[The Light]

Your belief in the "Anytime" rapture is the standard false teaching found in dispensationalism, nothing new

Scripture teaches the Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation and second coming of Jesus Christ

Luke 21:25-29KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Scripture only teaches that the blind foolish virgins will be on earth during the tribulation.

As for verse 28, the Lord is talking to the 12 tribes that will be on earth during the 70th week of Daniel. In regards, to the Church, here is the verse you are looking for. To those that look for Him He will appear a second time. So it would be better to watch as instructed.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[No Pre-TB]

You are 100% correct in this. Tribulation is not wrath. The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. Your error is thinking that there is not a pretribulation rapture.

That's funny!

 

[No Pre-TB]

No.......simply more of YOUR accusations.

No, you are way out there. Peddling false information under the guise of God's word. Dangerous.

Just admit that the definition for thlipsis doesn't mean wrath or anger. If you can't do that, provide Greek/Hebrew interlinear evidence of the transcription where "thlipsis" is defined as anger or wrath. Here's one that says otherwise:
Strong's Greek: 2347. θλῖψις (thlipsis) -- tribulation

I look forward to your interlinear proof.

 

[Taken]

No, you are way out there. Peddling false information under the guise of God's word. Dangerous.

Nope.

Just admit that the definition for thlipsis doesn't mean wrath or anger. If you can't do that, provide Greek/Hebrew interlinear evidence of the transcription where "thlipsis" is defined as anger or wrath. Here's one that says otherwise:
Strong's Greek: 2347. θλῖψις (thlipsis) -- tribulation

Still struggling with understanding the differences between Emotions and Actions...

 

[Truth7t7]

Scripture only teaches that the blind foolish virgins will be on earth during the tribulation.

As for verse 28, the Lord is talking to the 12 tribes that will be on earth during the 70th week of Daniel. In regards, to the Church, here is the verse you are looking for. To those that look for Him He will appear a second time. So it would be better to watch as instructed.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Scripture teaches the redeemed Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation and second coming of Jesus Christ

Luke 21:25-29KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your belief in the "Anytime" rapture is the standard false teaching found in dispensationalism, nothing new

Scripture teaches the Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation and second coming of Jesus Christ

Luke 21:25-29KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Grace, peace, and love to you in the name of Jesus Christ.

In more detail: I believe the Bible teaches that there is an Any-Time Rapture and a secondary event in the middle of the tribulation that is the gathering up of the saints by angels. So the Scripture you provided is describing this secondary gathering. In fact, the Bible talks about these two events.

Check out my End Times Chronology here to learn more:

My New End Times Chronology

 

[Truth7t7]

Grace, peace, and love to you in the name of Jesus Christ.

In more detail: I believe the Bible teaches that there is an Any-Time Rapture and a secondary event in the middle of the tribulation that is the gathering up of the saints by angels. So the Scripture you provided is describing this secondary gathering. In fact, the Bible talks about these two events.

Check out my End Times Chronology here to learn more:

My New End Times Chronology

Thanks for the response!

Scripture teaches that the resurrection and catching up of believers takes place at the "Second Coming" of Jesus Christ

I strongly disagree with the "Mid Trib" rapture you present

Jesus Is The Lord

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17KJV
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Timtofly]

Thanks for the response!

Scripture teaches that the resurrection and catching up of believers takes place at the "Second Coming" of Jesus Christ

I strongly disagree with the "Mid Trib" rapture you present

Jesus Is The Lord

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17KJV
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Second Coming is the opening of the 5th and 6th Seal, thus prior to all the Trumpets and Thunders.

 

[Keraz]

The Second Coming is the opening of the 5th and 6th Seal, thus prior to all the Trumpets and Thunders.

Why do you believe such a confused and out of sequence idea?
Revelation gives us a clear list of events as they will happen. First the Seals, of which the first Five are already open. Soon to occur will be the Sixth seal world changer and the Seventh Seal time gap, from then until the Return.
The Sixth Seal, then, a few years later the final 3 1/2 years, when Satan will have world control, during which; the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls will take place, culminating in the glorious Return of Jesus, when He will win the Battle of Armageddon.
Proved by how Jesus does not Return until AFTER all the wrath of God is over. Matthew 24:29, Revelation 15:1

 

[Taken]

Thanks for the response!

Scripture teaches that the resurrection and catching up of believers takes place at the "Second Coming" of Jesus Christ

Jesus Is The Lord

Who exactly was Sent TO Earth?
Where exactly was He Sent From?
Who exactly was REVEALED ON Earth?
Who exactly returned to whence he Came?
Who exactly Shall return to Earth Called HIS 2nd Coming?


Who is:
The Son of Man?
The Son of God?
Jesus?
Christ?
Jesus Christ?
Christ Jesus?
The Lamb of God?
A Lamb?
The Lord?

Asking YOUR belief, Scriptural reference, Scriptural quote, not necessary.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Nope.



Still struggling with understanding the differences between Emotions and Actions...

Nope. I don’t struggle with those things. Thank you though for your loving concerns.

Tribulation will always be distress. Not God’s anger or wrath. God saves us thru thlipsis. We glory in it. It strengthens us. It spiritually equips us. It allows our testimony in that day to shine like a burning flame in darkness.

Obviously you won’t address the truth of biblical meanings. This isn’t an eschatology choice: One theory over another. It’s a basis for understanding the word and its meaning.

If you say we, as Christians, are not designated to be present during God’s out poured Wrath, I agree. If you say we, as Christians, will be protected from his wrath. I agree. When you say that same wrath is tribulation, you’re saying tribulation is wrath, vengeance, and Holy out poured anger which it isn’t because the earliest language attests its meaning.

The tribulation happens pre 6th seal per an example given in Matthew 24 and Rev 7. And yet the 5th seal martyrs ask, when will God punish the wicked. Why? Because he hasn’t punished them yet during this tribulation that they seem to die in. God has not even exalted his majesty, come out of his place, marked the 144k so they will be protected, or cast a judgment to earth as fire from the alter, mimicking passages in Exodus/Leviticus till after all this. Your argument is not against me; it’s against Biblical translation, spirit filled men who penned the words and almost 2k years worth of commentary from religious leaders before we were born.