The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Keraz]

Zero fire in those verses. There is no such thing as a firery day of wrath in the NT end times.

Sheer avoidance of the facts. 2 Peter 3:7, Isaiah 66:15-17, plus over 70 other plainly stated prophesies.

 

[The Light]

What you don't take cognisance of is how Jesus is with us always, in a spiritual sense; until the end of the age when He will Return physically; seen by everyone.


Therefore the REB gives the correct translation.

Thanks. That gave me quite a chuckle. Excellent humor and great way to start the day.

 

[Davy]

There is so much scriptural evidence that prove you don't have a clue, that I haven't had time to post it all. And you keep making clueless statements that only adds to the fray.

The reality is, there is SO MUCH SCRIPTURE WRITTEN AGAINST any idea of multi-raptures, that to argue against God's Word like that shows you follow another agenda.

 

[The Light]

The idea of multiple raptures is comical, at best. It's utterly ludicrous and clearly not taught in scripture anywhere.

Oh, it's clearly taught in scripture, but you need to know what you are reading to be able to understand it.

Rev 14
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The 144,000 from the 12 tribes are first fruits. These first fruits are redeemed for the earth from among men and are before the throne. That means there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth.

This harvest cannot occur until this occurs.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

If you understood the scriptures, you would understand what this means.

It's barely even worth taking the time to refute such nonsense.

Refuting the truth only happens in mind, because you lack understanding.

 

[The Light]

The reality is, there is SO MUCH SCRIPTURE WRITTEN AGAINST any idea of multi-raptures, that to argue against God's Word like that shows you follow another agenda.

Please feel free to post ANY scriptures that refute multiple raptures. You won't find a single one. You best get to work. The agenda would be the truth, as the blind strike out against the truth, even as Paul persecuted those that had the knowledge of the truth. He was blind to the truth until Jesus opened his eyes, even as you are blind and strike against the truth. Proving you wrong over and over and over and over and over and over is no problem. The problem is getting the blind to see what they do not see. That's the problem.

Here you think that Jesus comes at the END of Gods wrath and only then, and I have already posted scriptures that show that the gathering is BEFORE the day of the Lord. I can only post the written word of God. I cannot get the blind to see.

 

[Davy]

Sheer avoidance of the facts. 2 Peter 3:7, Isaiah 66:15-17, plus over 70 other plainly stated prophesies.

Yeah, there's not any value in talking to such a person pushing a hidden agenda here that is EASY to know is against Christ. I don't understand why such Bible deniers are even allowed to post here.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

2 Thes 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The point is 2 Thes 2 proves that the gathering occurs BEFORE the wrath of God. This of course proves that Davy does not know what He is talking about as he believes that the Lord will come at the end of wrath AND ONLY THEN. So Davy is wrong AGAIN.

So much blindness to the truth. So little understanding of the Word of God. And then striking out against those that know the truth. He is coming in an hour that you think not. Pray that you are worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass and stand before the son of man.

Yes, we will be caught up before the final wrath of God comes down, as described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 and 1 Thess 5:2-3. Obviously, we would need to be taken off of the earth while the earth is being burned up. But, there is nothing in scripture to indicate that we would need to be taken off the earth before that day.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Zero fire in those verses. There is no such thing as a firery day of wrath in the NT end times.

Is the following passage not in your Bible?

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men....10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[The Light]

Yes, we will be caught up before the final wrath of God comes down, as described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 and 1 Thess 5:2-3. Obviously, we would need to be taken off of the earth while the earth is being burned up. But, there is nothing in scripture to indicate that we would need to be taken off the earth before that day.

Brother, when Jesus comes as a thief He is coming at the 6th seal BEFORE wrath begins. When wrath is over there is yet 1000 years before the elements are burned and there is a new heaven and new earth.

If you are going quote 2 Peter 3:10-12 you should have quoted verse 8 that shows that the day of the Lord is 1000 years.

2 Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Here we see Satan bound 1000 years
Revelation 20
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Here we see Satan loosed after the 1000 years

Revelation 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

After the 1000 years comes the judgement and the new heaven and earth.

Revelation 21
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Hey, Spiritual Israelite, are you allowed to tell what denomination you are. If so, what would it be?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Brother, when Jesus comes as a thief He is coming at the 6th seal BEFORE wrath begins. When wrath is over there is yet 1000 years before the elements are burned and there is a new heaven and new earth.

You clearly haven't thought this through very carefully. For one thing, you seem to be forgetting about Satan's little season which occurs after the 1000 years end. Surely, you are not trying to tell me that the elements are burned and the new heaven and new earth are ushered in even before Satan's little season occurs, right?

Please read this carefully and try to be objective when reading it:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

There are a couple of things here I want to point out that you clearly have never even considered.

First, notice how Peter is telling his readers to think about what type of people they should be "in all holy conversation and godliness" as they wait for the day of the Lord to arrive. Why would he say this to his readers (which include you and me) if what he was saying couldn't happen in their lifetimes? That makes no sense. Would you also try to say that the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" that Paul said would occur on the day of the Lord (1 Thess 5:2-3) doesn't happen until 1000+ years later? Clearly, Peter was talking about something that can potentially happen during the lifetimes of his readers, which includes you and me. So, trying to say that the fiery destruction described there can't happen until 1000+ years after Jesus comes is a case of taking this scripture completely out of context.

Second, notice how Peter said that we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth "according to his promise". According to what promise? This one:

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

We look forward to the new heavens and new earth according to the promise of Christ's second coming. That means the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in as a result of His second coming. To say that it doesn't happen until 1,000+ years later is taking this scripture completely out of context. If the fiery destruction described there and the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth didn't even happen until 1,000+ years after His second coming then it couldn't be said that we look forward to the new heavens and new earth according to the promise of His second coming.

If you are going quote 2 Peter 3:10-12 you should have quoted verse 8 that shows that the day of the Lord is 1000 years.

2 Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Once again you are taking scripture horribly out of context. In no way, shape or form is this verse saying that the day of the Lord lasts for 1000 years. All this verse is saying is that one 24 hour day and one thousand years make no difference to the Lord. Why? Because He exists outside of time. No amount of time has any affect on the Lord. One day is as a thousand years, five thousand years or any amount of time to the Lord since He created time and exists outside of time.

That verse relates directly to the verse which follows it.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The reason that Peter pointed out that time has no effect on the Lord is to support what he said here which is that while some might think the Lord is slow in keeping the promise of His second coming, He's not being slow from His perspective, which is what matters. The reason He is taking what may seem like a long time to us to return is because of His desire for everyone to repent. So, that is the context of 2 Peter 3:8, not the duration of the day of the Lord.

Here we see Satan bound 1000 years
Revelation 20
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Here we see Satan loosed after the 1000 years

Revelation 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

After the 1000 years comes the judgement and the new heaven and earth.

Revelation 21
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Uh huh. We all believe this, but we don't all agree on the timing of it as it relates to the second coming of Christ. One thing you clearly didn't think about here is that by saying that the day of the Lord lasts for 1000 years and that the elements are burned with the new heavens and new earth appearing at the end of that time, you're not allowing for Satan's little season to take place after the thousand years. Think about it.

Hey, Spiritual Israelite, are you allowed to tell what denomination you are. If so, what would it be?

I have no denomination.

 

[Keraz]

Thanks. That gave me quite a chuckle. Excellent humor and great way to start the day.

So; you prefer to have a Bible which contradicts itself?
Luke 21:35 says that the great Day [of the Lord's fiery wrath] will come upon everyone over all the world.
Luke 21:36 says; in your Bible and understanding, that some people will 'escape".

Yes, we will be caught up before the final wrath of God comes down, as described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 and 1 Thess 5:2-3. Obviously, we would need to be taken off of the earth while the earth is being burned up. But, there is nothing in scripture to indicate that we would need to be taken off the earth before that day.

As the total remaking of the earth doesn't happen until after the Millennium, your contention of people being removed is wrong.
When it does happen, the people who remain will be made immortal and it will be spiritual world, as described in Revelation 21-22.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As the total remaking of the earth doesn't happen until after the Millennium, your contention of people being removed is wrong.
When it does happen, the people who remain will be made immortal and it will be spiritual world, as described in Revelation 21-22.

You're telling me I'm wrong without showing how I'm supposedly wrong. How nice. And pointless. What a waste of time.

 

[The Light]

So; you prefer to have a Bible which contradicts itself?
Luke 21:35 says that the great Day [of the Lord's fiery wrath] will come upon everyone over all the world.
Luke 21:36 says; in your Bible and understanding, that some people will 'escape".

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

No. I don't prefer to have a Bible that contradicts itself. I prefer to understand what is written as opposed to searching for a different translation because of lack of understanding.

 

[The Light]

You clearly haven't thought this through very carefully. For one thing, you seem to be forgetting about Satan's little season which occurs after the 1000 years end. Surely, you are not trying to tell me that the elements are burned and the new heaven and new earth are ushered in even before Satan's little season occurs, right?

Please read this carefully and try to be objective when reading it:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

There are a couple of things here I want to point out that you clearly have never even considered.

First, notice how Peter is telling his readers to think about what type of people they should be "in all holy conversation and godliness" as they wait for the day of the Lord to arrive. Why would he say this to his readers (which include you and me) if what he was saying couldn't happen in their lifetimes? That makes no sense. Would you also try to say that the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" that Paul said would occur on the day of the Lord (1 Thess 5:2-3) doesn't happen until 1000+ years later? Clearly, Peter was talking about something that can potentially happen during the lifetimes of his readers, which includes you and me. So, trying to say that the fiery destruction described there can't happen until 1000+ years after Jesus comes is a case of taking this scripture completely out of context.

Second, notice how Peter said that we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth "according to his promise". According to what promise? This one:

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

We look forward to the new heavens and new earth according to the promise of Christ's second coming. That means the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in as a result of His second coming. To say that it doesn't happen until 1,000+ years later is taking this scripture completely out of context. If the fiery destruction described there and the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth didn't even happen until 1,000+ years after His second coming then it couldn't be said that we look forward to the new heavens and new earth according to the promise of His second coming.

Once again you are taking scripture horribly out of context. In no way, shape or form is this verse saying that the day of the Lord lasts for 1000 years. All this verse is saying is that one 24 hour day and one thousand years make no difference to the Lord. Why? Because He exists outside of time. No amount of time has any affect on the Lord. One day is as a thousand years, five thousand years or any amount of time to the Lord since He created time and exists outside of time.

That verse relates directly to the verse which follows it.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The reason that Peter pointed out that time has no effect on the Lord is to support what he said here which is that while some might think the Lord is slow in keeping the promise of His second coming, He's not being slow from His perspective, which is what matters. The reason He is taking what may seem like a long time to us to return is because of His desire for everyone to repent. So, that is the context of 2 Peter 3:8, not the duration of the day of the Lord.

Uh huh. We all believe this, but we don't all agree on the timing of it as it relates to the second coming of Christ. One thing you clearly didn't think about here is that by saying that the day of the Lord lasts for 1000 years and that the elements are burned with the new heavens and new earth appearing at the end of that time, you're not allowing for Satan's little season to take place after the thousand years. Think about it.

I have no denomination.

It's a little hard for me to see how you don't think the day of the Lord is 1,000 years considering what Peter says.

 

[ewq1938]

Is the following passage not in your Bible?

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men....10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

That takes place at the Revelation 21 New Heaven and new Earth timeframe not the second coming. Is Revelation 21 not in your bible? Do you not know when the New Heaven and new Earth happens?

 

[Truth7t7]

It's a little hard for me to see how you don't think the day of the Lord is 1,000 years considering what Peter says.

2 Peter 3:10 states the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night, that sure don't sound like 1,000 literal years to me, smiles!

 

[Truth7t7]

That takes place at the Revelation 21 New Heaven and new Earth timeframe not the second coming. Is Revelation 21 not in your bible? Do you not know when the New Heaven and new Earth happens?

Final Judgement, Eternal Kingdom, At His "Appearing"

2 Timothy 4:1KJV
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

 

[Truth7t7]

As the total remaking of the earth doesn't happen until after the Millennium, your contention of people being removed is wrong.
When it does happen, the people who remain will be made immortal and it will be spiritual world, as described in Revelation 21-22.

God's word teaches this earth will be dissolved into its very elements, how's that remaking as you claim?

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[ewq1938]

Final Judgement, Eternal Kingdom, At His "Appearing"

Not even close.

Second coming, first judgment (of the saved), Millennial kingdom, judgment of the unsaved, LOF, continuation of the existing kingdom for eternity.

 

[ewq1938]

God's word teaches this earth will be dissolved into its very elements, how's that remaking as you claim?

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

It also says that about heaven. Can you explain how elements of heaven are on fire and dissolve?