The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Timtofly]

Not after it ends, but at the end of it.

I never said at the end. The cleansing fire removes the works of man at the beginning to restore the earth to pre-Flood conditions.

Okay, so we actually agree that 2 Peter 3:10-12 occurs at the second coming. So, tell me how exactly any mortals survive that? Paul, who wrote in 1 Thess 5:2-3 about the same day of the Lord that Peter described in 2 Peter 3:10-12, said that unbelievers "shall not escape" the "sudden destruction" that comes down at that time. So, again, how does this allow for any mortal survivors, keeping in mind that believers will be changed and have immortal bodies at that point?

"And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Under the mountains and rubble.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I never said at the end. The cleansing fire removes the works of man at the beginning to restore the earth to pre-Flood conditions.

I assumed you believed it's at the end because if it's at the beginning then how does that allow for any mortals to populate the earth for a thousand years?

"And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Under the mountains and rubble.

LOL. So, your millennium will be populated by people who somehow survived "under the mountains and rubble". And who exactly is going to help them recover after somehow surviving that? They certainly would be in bad shape and in need of a hospital. Would any hospital be still standing at that point? Apparently not. So, how will this work exactly?

 

[ewq1938]

Do you acknowledge that the day of the Lord Peter referenced in 2 Peter 3:10-12 is the same day of the Lord Paul referenced in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3?

No. There are many days of the Lord and they should not be confused as one single day. The day of the Lord when the New Heaven and new Earth happens is a different day of the Lord when the second coming happens.

 

[Timtofly]

I assumed you believed it's at the end because if it's at the beginning then how does that allow for any mortals to populate the earth for a thousand years?

LOL. So, your millennium will be populated by people who somehow survived "under the mountains and rubble". And who exactly is going to help them recover after somehow surviving that? They certainly would be in bad shape and in need of a hospital. Would any hospital be still standing at that point? Apparently not. So, how will this work exactly?

Obviously enough that over 4 years later they are all killed at Armageddon.

No the Millennium is populated by humans who have shed Adam's flesh and blood. That is usually the point of physical death. They are given permanent incorruptible physical bodies. Obviously no one on earth currently has a permanent incorruptible physical body.

How do the sheep and wheat get from point a, Adam's flesh to point b, permanent incorruptible physical bodies? Matthew 25 and Matthew 13. Burned up by your human consuming fire, that to you does not burn up any thing, but humans.

2 Peter 3:10: Amil version:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and only the humans shall be burned up."

If the works are burned up leaving the people scrambling for protection and seeking death but not finding it, it seems Amil are just making stuff up to suit their bias instead of God's Word. What about this verse? Revelation 9:6

"And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

You really think God cannot burn up the works of mankind and leave those same humans alive as He sees fit?

 

[Keraz]

Okay, so we actually agree that 2 Peter 3:10-12 occurs at the second coming. So, tell me how exactly any mortals survive that? Paul, who wrote in 1 Thess 5:2-3 about the same day of the Lord that Peter described in 2 Peter 3:10-12, said that unbelievers "shall not escape" the "sudden destruction" that comes down at that time. So, again, how does this allow for any mortal survivors, keeping in mind that believers will be changed and have immortal bodies at that point?

There is no fire or any immortality when Jesus Returns. No prophecy about that glorious Day says any of that.
The Lord sends fire years before He Returns and the only people resurrected will be the GT martyrs. Back to mortal life. Rev 20:4-6
Immortality is conferred at The GWT Judgment, when the Book of Life is opened.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No. There are many days of the Lord and they should not be confused as one single day. The day of the Lord when the New Heaven and new Earth happens is a different day of the Lord when the second coming happens.

LOL. How convenient of you to come up with this multiple days of the Lord theory. Give me a break. I can't take this seriously. Only doctrinal bias can make someone think that the day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night that Paul wrote about in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 is a different day of the Lord that is coming like a thief in the night that Peter wrote about in 2 Peter 3:10-12. There is absolutely not basis whatsoever for believing that. In each, they are writing about complete destruction occurring on the day of the Lord. Based on how Peter described it, it's no wonder that Paul indicated that "they shall not escape" the "sudden destruction" that will come down on that day.

 

[ewq1938]

LOL. How convenient of you to come up with this multiple days of the Lord theory. Give me a break. I can't take this seriously.

It's a biblical fact which is why no one should take you and YOUR doctrinal biases seriously.

What is the day of the Lord? | GotQuestions.org

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is no fire or any immortality when Jesus Returns. No prophecy about that glorious Day says any of that.

2 Peter 3:3-13 does. Premils ignore that verse 13 indicates that the burning up of the new heavens and new earth, resulting in the new heavens and new earth, is all according to the promise of His second coming. And 2 Thess 1:7-10 says He is coming in flaming fire to take vengeance on His enemies.

The Lord sends fire years before He Returns and the only people resurrected will be the GT martyrs. Back to mortal life. Rev 20:4-6
Immortality is conferred at The GWT Judgment, when the Book of Life is opened.

It's too bad that you don't care whether or not your interpretation of Revelation 20:4-6 lines up with the rest of scripture or not. You twist the rest of scripture in favor of your interpretation of Revelation 20:4-6 instead of letting more clear scripture like John 5:28-29, Matthew 25:31-46, Matthew 28:18, Ephesians 1:19-22, 2 Peter 3:10-13 and others aid your understanding of Revelation 20:4-6.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's a biblical fact which is why no one should take you and YOUR doctrinal biases seriously.

What is the day of the Lord? | GotQuestions.org

The idea of 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 being different events is a lie. How can we ever know when two passages in scripture are related if one passage that talks about the day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night resulting in mass destruction has nothing to do with another passage that talks about the day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night resulting in mass destruction?

 

[ewq1938]

The idea of 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 being different events is a lie.

No, it is not a lie.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Obviously enough that over 4 years later they are all killed at Armageddon.

No the Millennium is populated by humans who have shed Adam's flesh and blood. That is usually the point of physical death. They are given permanent incorruptible physical bodies. Obviously no one on earth currently has a permanent incorruptible physical body.

How do the sheep and wheat get from point a, Adam's flesh to point b, permanent incorruptible physical bodies? Matthew 25 and Matthew 13. Burned up by your human consuming fire, that to you does not burn up any thing, but humans.

Nothing you said here even begins to make any sense. Thank you for making it clear that you have no idea of what you're talking about. I'm sure everyone here can see that.

2 Peter 3:10: Amil version:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and only the humans shall be burned up."

If the works are burned up leaving the people scrambling for protection and seeking death but not finding it, it seems Amil are just making stuff up to suit their bias instead of God's Word. What about this verse? Revelation 9:6

Why are you ignoring the fact that the actual text says the earth itself will be burned up and not just the works of the earth?

"And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

That is not referring to the day Christ returns.

You really think God cannot burn up the works of mankind and leave those same humans alive as He sees fit?

What mortals exactly would He keep alive and why? Keep in mind that believers will be changed to have immortal bodies at that time, so you can't include any of them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, it is not a lie.

I don't believe for a second that you would say the following two passages are speaking of two completely different things if not for doctrinal bias.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.

It can't possibly be more obvious that these two passages are speaking of the same thing. The one future day of the Lord will com as a thief in the night. At that time "destruction will come on them suddenly" throughout the earth by way of fire "and they will not escape". And in both passages readers are warned about being careful about their behavior and making sure they are spiritually ready for that day. If these two passages were not directly related and speaking of the same event then no two passages in scripture could possibly be directly related.

 

[ewq1938]

It can't possibly be more obvious that these two passages are speaking of the same thing.

Known as doctrinal bias. Anyone that has read Revelation 20-21 knows the New Heaven and new Earth happens after the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) is over, not it happening at the second coming.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Known as doctrinal bias. Anyone that has read Revelation 20-21 knows the New Heaven and new Earth happens after the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) is over, not it happening at the second coming.

You can't possibly have more doctrinal bias than thinking that the day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night in 1 Thess 5:2-3 is a different day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

And when did I say that the new heaven and new earth are inherited before the GWTJ occurs? I didn't. According to Matthew 25:31-46, the judgment is something that occurs at the second coming so it's part of the overall second coming event. It is the burning up of the heavens and earth that occurs when He comes. Then the judgment occurs and then the new heavens and new earth are ushered in. No indication whatsoever in passages like 1 Thess 4:13-5:9, 2 Peter 3:3-13 or Mathew 25:31-46 of a long time period between His arrival at His second coming and the judgment and ushering in of the new heavens and new earth.

 

[ewq1938]

You can't possibly have more doctrinal bias than thinking that the day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night in 1 Thess 5:2-3 is a different day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

And when did I say that the new heaven and new earth are inherited before the GWTJ occurs? I didn't.

The doctrine does since Amillennialism teaches the fire coming down from God at Jerusalem is the second coming and that happened before the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ). That is not when the New Heaven and new Earth (old Earth burned) happens. You are still placing the New Heaven and new Earth before it's actual time.

More than one event can "come as a thief" which means as a surprise. There is more than one "day of the Lord".

 

[Timtofly]

Why are you ignoring the fact that the actual text says the earth itself will be burned up and not just the works of the earth?

Really? Even you claim the earth is not burned up. Or have you changed your mind?

I make perfect sense. But if your only argument is I don't make sense, then it is you who does not understand.

You are stuck in hundreds of years of false interpretations that would never make sense to the majority of the church. Just because a wrong theology makes sense, does not make it right. Islam makes sense to billions. Mormons make sense to millions. Even Hinduism and all eastern religions makes sense to billions of humans. Making sense does not mean being true to the Word of God.

 

[Keraz]

The doctrine does since Amillennialism teaches the fire coming down from God at Jerusalem is the second coming and that happened before the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ). That is not when the New Heaven and new Earth (old Earth burned) happens. You are still placing the New Heaven and new Earth before it's actual time.

More than one event can "come as a thief" which means as a surprise. There is more than one "day of the Lord".

I agree,
Just read Revelation 20 for the correct sequence of events.
Misplacing, changing and swapping events is a crime against scripture and esp in Revelation: it incurs a curse.

The Lord Jesus will Return in power and glory, disposing of all the ungodly peoples, reign as King over all the earth for the next thousand years, then a final rebellion will happen. They and Satan; will be annihilated, then comes the new heavens and earth and Eternity.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Really? Even you claim the earth is not burned up. Or have you changed your mind?

The entire earth surface will be burned up, as I already said before. He compared that event directly to what happened with the flood where the flood waters covered the entire earth surface.

 

[farouk]

It is the church that is linked with the Rapture in 1 Corinthians 11.26.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree,
Just read Revelation 20 for the correct sequence of events.
Misplacing, changing and swapping events is a crime against scripture and esp in Revelation: it incurs a curse.

You better think about how you are judging others here, buddy. You will be judged with the same measure that you judge others. If I'm interpreting the text incorrectly, it is not because I'm purposely trying to change the text. I'm simply interpreting it differently than you. So, there would be no curse on me just for merely being mistaken in my honest efforts to understand the truth. What you're saying would only apply to someone who is purposely twisting the text. Which I do not do no matter what you say.

I see one passage that speaks of the day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night as talking about the same event as another passage that speaks of the day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night. If it's wrong to see those two passages (1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12) as speaking of the same event (it's not, but if it was), then that's just an honest mistake and not a case of trying to change the text.