The pre-tribulational rapture

[iamlamad]

Lamad where in world today, is there peace and safety now?

Hmmmm....some south Pacific island? MY HOUSE is a house of peace and safety. Actually, much of the world has the absense of war right now. Look at it this way? Will there be any time in our future before the millennial reign that we will have more peace than now? Lamad

You don't realize how wrong you are about that. You're clearly not aware where the Heavenly is going to manifest on that day.


I suggest you look at the 1 Thess.4 Scripture again, starting at verse 13.

1Thes 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

Those asleep saints that have died are already with Him, as per what Paul taught in 1 Cor.5. I do not believe in the literal putting back of one's spirit into the casket. That is why Paul says there our Lord Jesus brings them WITH Him when He returns back to this earth. That is the Matt.24:31 event, the gathering from one end of heaven to the other.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

The actual Greek word there for "prevent" is not that at all. The actual Greek word (phthano) means 'to precede' (i.e., go beforehand). Thus the saints still alive on earth at that event will not 'precede' the alseep saints that are already there with Christ which He is going to bring with Him.


16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

This event will occur very quickly. Paul in 1 Cor.15 said "at the twinkling of an eye" is how fast it will occur. Those of us still alive on earth at this event will be changed to our spiritual bodies at an instant, fast as one can blink. The idea is that those still alive on earth must also be changed to the same kind of bodies as the asleep saints that have died. The Mark 13:27 parallels this event, the gathering from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. The extremity of Heaven at that time is going to reach all the way down upon the earth with Christ's feet touching down at the Mount of Olivet.


You're terribly wrong about that too.

The time of false "Peace and safety" that Apostle Paul warned us of in 1 Thess.5 is... the great tribulation time. And it comes PRIOR to the time of Christ's coming to gather His Church. To this all of Christ's Apostles agree, including the Old Testament prophets, for they were given quite a bit to write about that Day of The LORD when Jesus returns and gathers all His saints.

In 1 Thess.5, it is "they" who will be saying, "Peace and safety", not those in Christ Jesus. The OT prophets like Daniel prophesied of that time of false peace with a false one coming to destroy many using peace, and making craft prosper in his hand (i.e., the final Antichrist).

As for the events of the 6th Seal, that is a parallel to the events of the 6th and 7th Vials. It's the 5th Seal when the false time of "Peace and safety" will be proclaimed by the deceived, which is PRIOR to the 7th Vial being poured out. That is when many of Christ's faithful will be delivered up and persecuted by those proclaiming peace has come.

On the 6th Vial, Jesus warned His saints still on earth that He comes "as a thief". Then on the 7th Vial, God's cup of wrath is poured out upon the wicked, with the battle of Armageddon taking place. That day of battle is The Day of The LORD when Jesus comes and gathers His and makes war against Satan and his host on earth.

Thus your timeline is NOT from Scripture, but from the false Pre-Trib Rapture theory doctors.

Veteran writes: "that Day of The LORD when Jesus returns and gathers all His saints."

Did you forget this verse that is just the opposite of what you are teaching?

Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Do you understand WITH?

Veteran, how can you hope to teach truth with you start out with error? It is MYTH that Paul's rapture or gathering is inside the Day of the Lord. Take off your preconceived glasses and START OVER with a clean slate! Understand that PAUL ALONE had the revelation of the rapture of the church. You will not find it in the gospels, no matter how hard you look. It is simply not there.

Now go back to 1 Thes. 5, and stay there until you understand it: the suddenly is Paul's rapture. Two groups of people get two separate results at this sudden event of Jesus coming to the clouds and calling up the dead in Christ. First, those living in the light, get "salvation" [rapture] and get to live together with Him [so shall we ever be with the Lord]. At the very same time, those living in darkness get "sudden destruction." These two events are really ONE EVENT: the gathering: it comes when some are saying "peace and safety" and is the TRIGGER for the start of the Day of the Lord. The day comes as a thief because the TRIGGER [Jesus coming to the clouds] comes as a thief. The rapture is not the day, and the Day is not the rapture. They are SEPARATE but back to back, because the rapture begins the day. It is the trigger for the day.

The spirits Jesus brings with him are INCOMPLETE: that is without a body. The resurrected body will fly up out of the grave by the power of the Holy Spirit and the human spirits will once again enter their body and be WHOLE. Why do you think it is written "the graves were opened?" It is where the resurrected body came from.

Now go to Rev. 6 and imagine the rapture as happening the very same instant the earth begins to quake. The dead in Christ have risen and their resurrection CAUSED the great earthquake around the world. It is Paul's "sudden destruction." It is so terrible an earthquake, men on earth recognize it as the SIGN that the DAy of the Lord has begun. ["The day of His wrath has come."]

How then can you believe and teach something so totally contrary to what Paul has written? It is not accident that John saw the raptured church in heaven in the very next chapter. It is PROOF that Paul's rapture has taken place at this time. Yet notice, this point in REvelation is SEVEN LONG YEARS from chapter 19, when Jesus comes on the white horse. Yet you try to twist things so as to make these two comings the SAME coming. It is impossible and does terrible injustice to the Word of God.

Paul's rapture comes FIRST and is the trigger for what follows: the Day of the Lord and the 70th week of Daniel. Then, AFTER the 70th week ends with the 7th vial, and then AFTER the marriage and supper, FINALLY Jesus [and the saints - all with resurrection bodies at this time] get on white horses and descend to the battle of armageddon.

Lamad

 

[ENOCH2010]

Hmmmm....some south Pacific island? MY HOUSE is a house of peace and safety. Actually, much of the world has the absense of war right now. Look at it this way? Will there be any time in our future before the millennial reign that we will have more peace than now? Lamad

Veteran writes: "that Day of The LORD when Jesus returns and gathers all His saints."

Did you forget this verse that is just the opposite of what you are teaching?

Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Do you understand WITH?

Veteran, how can you hope to teach truth with you start out with error? It is MYTH that Paul's rapture or gathering is inside the Day of the Lord. Take off your preconceived glasses and START OVER with a clean slate! Understand that PAUL ALONE had the revelation of the rapture of the church. You will not find it in the gospels, no matter how hard you look. It is simply not there.

Now go back to 1 Thes. 5, and stay there until you understand it: the suddenly is Paul's rapture. Two groups of people get two separate results at this sudden event of Jesus coming to the clouds and calling up the dead in Christ. First, those living in the light, get "salvation" [rapture] and get to live together with Him [so shall we ever be with the Lord]. At the very same time, those living in darkness get "sudden destruction." These two events are really ONE EVENT: the gathering: it comes when some are saying "peace and safety" and is the TRIGGER for the start of the Day of the Lord. The day comes as a thief because the TRIGGER [Jesus coming to the clouds] comes as a thief. The rapture is not the day, and the Day is not the rapture. They are SEPARATE but back to back, because the rapture begins the day. It is the trigger for the day.

The spirits Jesus brings with him are INCOMPLETE: that is without a body. The resurrected body will fly up out of the grave by the power of the Holy Spirit and the human spirits will once again enter their body and be WHOLE. Why do you think it is written "the graves were opened?" It is where the resurrected body came from.

Now go to Rev. 6 and imagine the rapture as happening the very same instant the earth begins to quake. The dead in Christ have risen and their resurrection CAUSED the great earthquake around the world. It is Paul's "sudden destruction." It is so terrible an earthquake, men on earth recognize it as the SIGN that the DAy of the Lord has begun. ["The day of His wrath has come."]

How then can you believe and teach something so totally contrary to what Paul has written? It is not accident that John saw the raptured church in heaven in the very next chapter. It is PROOF that Paul's rapture has taken place at this time. Yet notice, this point in REvelation is SEVEN LONG YEARS from chapter 19, when Jesus comes on the white horse. Yet you try to twist things so as to make these two comings the SAME coming. It is impossible and does terrible injustice to the Word of God.

Paul's rapture comes FIRST and is the trigger for what follows: the Day of the Lord and the 70th week of Daniel. Then, AFTER the 70th week ends with the 7th vial, and then AFTER the marriage and supper, FINALLY Jesus [and the saints - all with resurrection bodies at this time] get on white horses and descend to the battle of armageddon.

Lamad

Lamad until you stop adding a resurrection in chapter 6 that isn't there, you will never understand Rev. The first resurrection happens at the second coming of the Lord ...... your the one with glasses on, you see a resurrection that isn't in the Word...... Case Closed

 

[veteran]

Hmmmm....some south Pacific island? MY HOUSE is a house of peace and safety. Actually, much of the world has the absense of war right now. Look at it this way? Will there be any time in our future before the millennial reign that we will have more peace than now? Lamad

That is a totally... deceived view of what's going on in today's world, especially outside the Christian West in places like Africa and Indonesia with many Christians being slaughtered by Muslim radicals. Wars are still happenning today; they're just not wars like WWI and WWII.

And yes, there will be a future time, a short time of world peace when all wars will have stopped, just prior to Christ's returning. It will the time when many will say, "Peace and safety" like Apostle Paul said in 1 Thess.5. That event is linked with the coming of the false messiah who will destroy many using 'peace' per the Daniel prophecy.

Veteran writes: "that Day of The LORD when Jesus returns and gathers all His saints."

Did you forget this verse that is just the opposite of what you are teaching?

Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

That Jude 1:14 verse indeed is... about the event of Christ's coming on the Day of The LORD, but it's about His 'asleep' saints that return with Him per what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4:13-15. Those of us still alive on earth must be changed at the twinkling of an eye and be gathered with them when He comes. Already covered that in my above posts.

Do you understand WITH?

Veteran, how can you hope to teach truth with you start out with error? It is MYTH that Paul's rapture or gathering is inside the Day of the Lord. Take off your preconceived glasses and START OVER with a clean slate! Understand that PAUL ALONE had the revelation of the rapture of the church. You will not find it in the gospels, no matter how hard you look. It is simply not there.

It is not a myth about Christ's sole return to gather His Church on the Day of The LORD and do battle against His enemies at that time too, God's cup of wrath being poured out at that time. It is what is written in God's Holy Writ, and in more than one Scripture. The rest of your words there are irrelevant to this topic and provide nothing.

Now go back to 1 Thes. 5, and stay there until you understand it: the suddenly is Paul's rapture. Two groups of people get two separate results at this sudden event of Jesus coming to the clouds and calling up the dead in Christ. First, those living in the light, get "salvation" [rapture] and get to live together with Him [so shall we ever be with the Lord]. At the very same time, those living in darkness get "sudden destruction." These two events are really ONE EVENT: the gathering: it comes when some are saying "peace and safety" and is the TRIGGER for the start of the Day of the Lord. The day comes as a thief because the TRIGGER [Jesus coming to the clouds] comes as a thief. The rapture is not the day, and the Day is not the rapture. They are SEPARATE but back to back, because the rapture begins the day. It is the trigger for the day.

I understand 1 Thess.5 very well thank you, and that in relation to the prophecies in the OT prophets where Apostle Paul was pulling a lot of that from.

The Pre-Trib Rapture theory of man preaches that Christ is going to 'rapture' His Church, i.e., the alive saints on earth, PRIOR to even the START of the great tribulation He taught in Matt.24. That time of "Peace and safety" the wicked will be declaring on earth when the coming false messiah shows up is... the tribulation time. That "sudden destruction" upon them that Apostle Paul mentioned there will not occur until that tribulation time is over with Christ's coming to gather His Church.

Thus there is a short period of a false one-world peace that's to come upon this earth prior to Christ's return to gather His Church. And His Church will remain on this earth all the way through that tribulation and be persecuted for not getting on board with that false "Peace and safety" under the false messiah. This is why Jesus showed all the way to the 6th Vial a warning for His Church on earth to be on watch lest His coming take you "as a thief" and you appear in shame when He does come.

Furthermore, the very subject by Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2:1-4 is how the coming of a false one to sit in a physical temple in Jerusalem, exalting himself as God and over anything that is even called... God, and how that MUST take place PRIOR to our gathering to Christ at His return. So there's more Scriptures than just 1 Thess.5 on the timing of Christ gathering His Church.

The spirits Jesus brings with him are INCOMPLETE: that is without a body. The resurrected body will fly up out of the grave by the power of the Holy Spirit and the human spirits will once again enter their body and be WHOLE. Why do you think it is written "the graves were opened?" It is where the resurrected body came from.

That is the carnality of man's thinking, not understanding the resurrection that Apostle Paul taught in detail, nor even the Eccl.12:5-7 Scripture about two separate parts of our being regarding two separate and distinct dimensions of existence. When Jesus comes, none... of us will ever need a fleshy body again. It instead will be changed to the "spiritual body" Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15. After Christ's return there will only be one type of death of remaining, a death to one's spirit in the future "lake of fire" event, called the "second death" in Rev.20. It's important understand the difference between expressions in God's Word and literal things. Those who were resurrected at Christ's death and went into Jerusalem and appeared to many were not raised flesh bodies only to die again later.

Now go to Rev. 6 and imagine the rapture as happening the very same instant the earth begins to quake. The dead in Christ have risen and their resurrection CAUSED the great earthquake around the world. It is Paul's "sudden destruction." It is so terrible an earthquake, men on earth recognize it as the SIGN that the DAy of the Lord has begun. ["The day of His wrath has come."

Yes, with that I agree about the timing of the great earthquake that will occur on the day of Christ's second coming, as written on the 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial. That is the day of Christ gathering His Church, both from Heaven and from the earth per the Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scriptures, and 1 Thess.4, and 1 Cor.15. That also is one of the events given on the 6th Seal of Rev.6. It is when the great tribulation will end, the false messiah destroyed with the brightness of Christ's coming, and when God's cup of wrath is poured out upon the wicked, and when the battle of Armageddon will take place.

How then can you believe and teach something so totally contrary to what Paul has written? It is not accident that John saw the raptured church in heaven in the very next chapter. It is PROOF that Paul's rapture has taken place at this time. Yet notice, this point in REvelation is SEVEN LONG YEARS from chapter 19, when Jesus comes on the white horse. Yet you try to twist things so as to make these two comings the SAME coming. It is impossible and does terrible injustice to the Word of God.

I'm not the one teaching the false Pre-Trib Secret Rapture theory of man, a doctrine that came out of 1830's Great Britain that never was a doctrine held in the Church prior to that time. Imagine, Christ's Church held predominantly to a post-tribulational coming and gathering to Christ for almost 1800 years prior to that!

Revelation's timelines jump back and forth a lot, just as in all the OT Books of the prophets. Many treat the event order in Revelation as being in chronological order, when many of the events are not. In Rev.4 when John was given a vision in Heaven, it was a vision of the future, after the crowns are handed out. We know that doesn't happen until Christ's second coming on the Day of The LORD. So they have actually moved the timing of that forward, in error.

There are enough clues later in Revelation to know Christ's Church is still on earth all the way to the 7th Vial being poured out. Rev.16:15 with Christ warning that He comes "as a thief" is one of them.

Paul's rapture comes FIRST and is the trigger for what follows: the Day of the Lord and the 70th week of Daniel. Then, AFTER the 70th week ends with the 7th vial, and then AFTER the marriage and supper, FINALLY Jesus [and the saints - all with resurrection bodies at this time] get on white horses and descend to the battle of armageddon.

The actual trigger for Christ's gathering of His Church are the Day of The LORD events. A thorough Bible study in the OT prophets prior to study about the events of that day per the NT is a requirement to understand the order of those events. Most don't do that Bible study.

Another matter revealed about the Day of The LORD events in the OT prophets is exactly where Christ returns to, and where He gathers His Church to, and even where the "mansions" are that He promised His. It's ALL... UPON THIS EARTH. And the reason why is simple; it's because the Heavenly order is going to be revealed right here, on earth, with Christ's coming. That is one of the matters of death being swallowed in victory that Apostle Paul taught from Isaiah 25 about.

In most cases, there's actually MORE detail about Christ's future coming and Day of The LORD events, and His future Millennium reign written in the OT prophets than in the NT. The Ezekiel 40 through 48 chapters are specifically about Christ's future Millennium reign and thereafter. And something many have also missed about the resurrection at Christ's coming, the wicked ALSO will be changed on that day (per John 5:28-29). When Jesus returns and God's consuming fire burns man's works off this earth on that day, as per 2 Pet.3:10, that will literally... END... much of how this present world is setup, including the type of bodies we are now in. Christ's Millennial reign will bring some earth changes back to this earth that once existed on earth, like God's River of Gen.2 and the tree of life manifested on either side of that River (Ezek.47). And that prior... to the new heavens and new earth which will manifest after Christ's thousand years reign.