The pre-tribulational rapture

[7angels]

This might just be what's causing your confusion. Just because it gets repeatedly trumpeted from behind a pulpit doesn't make it true. Study your Bible.

you are 100% correct but if there is scripture to prove that the great trib is God's wrath then what?

God bless

 

[Brothertom]

you are 100% correct but if there is scripture to prove that the great trib is God's wrath then what?

God bless

Your issue is that there is 100% proof in Scripture that that the Great Tribulation is not Wrath, but:
"Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

At some point in time during the Great Trib, Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.”

First Bowl: Loathsome Sores
[SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.

Second Bowl: The Sea Turns to Blood
[SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]Then the second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it became blood as of a dead man; and every living creature in the sea died.



Third Bowl: The Waters Turn to Blood
[SIZE=.75em]4 [/SIZE]Then the third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. [SIZE=.75em]5 [/SIZE]And I heard the angel of the waters saying:

“You are righteous, O Lord,[SIZE=.65em][b][/SIZE]
The One who is and who was and who is to be,[SIZE=.65em][c][/SIZE]
Because You have judged these things.
[SIZE=.75em]6 [/SIZE]For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,
And You have given them blood to drink.
For[SIZE=.65em][d][/SIZE] it is their just due.”

[SIZE=.75em]7 [/SIZE]And I heard another from[SIZE=.65em][e][/SIZE] the altar saying, “Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.”

Fourth Bowl: Men Are Scorched
[SIZE=.75em]8 [/SIZE]Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire. [SIZE=.75em]9 [/SIZE]And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.

Fifth Bowl: Darkness and Pain
[SIZE=.75em]10 [/SIZE]Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain. [SIZE=.75em]11 [/SIZE]They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds.

Sixth Bowl: Euphrates Dried Up
[SIZE=.75em]12 [/SIZE]Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. [SIZE=.75em]13 [/SIZE]And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. [SIZE=.75em]14 [/SIZE]For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and[SIZE=.65em][f][/SIZE] of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
[SIZE=.75em]15 [/SIZE]“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”
[SIZE=.75em]16 [/SIZE]And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.[SIZE=.65em][g][/SIZE]

Seventh Bowl: The Earth Utterly Shaken
[SIZE=.75em]17 [/SIZE]Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” [SIZE=.75em]18 [/SIZE]And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. [SIZE=.75em]19 [/SIZE]Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.[SIZE=.75em]20 [/SIZE]Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. [SIZE=.75em]21 [/SIZE]And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

If you will notice this Wrath is not poured out on the Church, but her Persecutors: NOT the Elect, up to the time of Armageddon, & then more-so upon the Return of the Lord Jesus .

[SIZE=.75em]" [/SIZE]Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. "

It's a Trial , & Christians especially MUST be tried: It is God's will to prove who really wants Him.

"Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. THEN....... THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN will appear in heaven, and THEN .......ALL OF THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH SHALL MOURN, and [ AT THIS VERY TIME ] & they will see the Son of Man COMING ...on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And [ AT THIS VERY TIME ] He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT...]from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

This is 100% proof about WHEN HE returns; the Timing of it, & He does not return TWICE, or in the secret places.


Here He makes it abundantly clear.
We ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

[SIZE=.75em] This[/SIZE] is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: [ The WHY of the Great Tribulation.]

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; [SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]and to you who are troubled rest with us,
......when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, [SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:...[ SO JESUS RETURNS...]

[SIZE=.75em] real wrath>>>[/SIZE] shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

THE TIMING OF HIS RETURN IS THE SAME AS THE RAPTURE.

[SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

I know it's hard, because you have been drilled day & night that you are going to fly away & the Tribulation is Wrath; while the simple Word declares that it is not! but a TRIAL...just like the Church has always suffered...Look at the apostles & the Early church, & Hebrews 11....The Hall of fame of Faith! Persecution !

I have traveled to the authentic Underground Church in China, 1000 miles in the Countryside, where they came to me in the night...because they would be arrested if caught gathering in His Name. Many had already fled facing prison; some were. They were impoverished, with most of the men gone...or hidden. I call them "THE HUNTED CHURCH."...which is exactly what Hebrews 11 is about.

BUT.............They knew that this was not Wrath; It was a Privilege to them, & that God loved them, no matter what. It was Persecution, & a Trial they must endure. We in the West will soon have our opportunity to shine for Jesus in this Great Tribulation coming.

No monetary system; everything collapsed...no Internet, food, gas & invading armies...no relief ...no hospitals or Nursing homes functioning...no police or National guard.....& burning & murder...for quite a while....3 1/2 years.....& a Religion coming, Islam, that will murder you if you do not kneel down & declare Allah as Jehovah...& worship him....& then you can eat & drink & live.

When this happens 7 angels what will you do? Will you wait to fly away? It will not happen until a day...& I think it will be close to the autumn of 1919.

It begins in the second week of March, 2016. How do we prepare? All for Jesus today; No matter the cost.....Let Him consume you now....keep repenting inside of all pride, lust & selfishness, & learn to worship Him in Spirit & Truth.

God has never forsaken ANYONE who has put their trust in Him.

I will be beheaded...& in a way...I can't wait.


Let us learn to pray for each other that we may be purified & endure by faith.

What do you think this means?

Revelation 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

 

[7angels]

Your issue is that there is 100% proof in Scripture that that the Great Tribulation is not Wrath, but:
"Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."
this verse could also refer to the rapture of the church thus we are protected from the hour of trial referred to in this verse because we are no longer dwelling on the earth.
At some point in time during the Great Trib, Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.”
First Bowl: Loathsome Sores
[SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.
Second Bowl: The Sea Turns to Blood
[SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]Then the second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it became blood as of a dead man; and every living creature in the sea died.


Third Bowl: The Waters Turn to Blood
[SIZE=.75em]4 [/SIZE]Then the third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. [SIZE=.75em]5 [/SIZE]And I heard the angel of the waters saying:

“You are righteous, O Lord,[SIZE=.65em][b][/SIZE]
The One who is and who was and who is to be,[SIZE=.65em][c][/SIZE]
Because You have judged these things.
[SIZE=.75em]6 [/SIZE]For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,
And You have given them blood to drink.
For[SIZE=.65em][d][/SIZE] it is their just due.”

[SIZE=.75em]7 [/SIZE]And I heard another from[SIZE=.65em][e][/SIZE] the altar saying, “Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.”
Fourth Bowl: Men Are Scorched
[SIZE=.75em]8 [/SIZE]Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire. [SIZE=.75em]9 [/SIZE]And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.
Fifth Bowl: Darkness and Pain
[SIZE=.75em]10 [/SIZE]Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain. [SIZE=.75em]11 [/SIZE]They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds.
Sixth Bowl: Euphrates Dried Up
[SIZE=.75em]12 [/SIZE]Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. [SIZE=.75em]13 [/SIZE]And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. [SIZE=.75em]14 [/SIZE]For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and[SIZE=.65em][f][/SIZE] of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
[SIZE=.75em]15 [/SIZE]“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”
[SIZE=.75em]16 [/SIZE]And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.[SIZE=.65em][g][/SIZE]
Seventh Bowl: The Earth Utterly Shaken
[SIZE=.75em]17 [/SIZE]Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” [SIZE=.75em]18 [/SIZE]And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. [SIZE=.75em]19 [/SIZE]Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.[SIZE=.75em]20 [/SIZE]Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. [SIZE=.75em]21 [/SIZE]And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

If you will notice this Wrath is not poured out on the Church, but her Persecutors: NOT the Elect, up to the time of Armageddon, & then more-so upon the Return of the Lord Jesus .
could it be possible that the reason the church is not included in the wrath of the great trib is because they are not around? the elect still have their own tribulations to deal with during the great trib but I believe the church will no longer be there. how these elect are chose to be during the great trib could be those that were saved by the 2 witnesses or 144,000 of the 12 tribes of isreal or maybe after the church got raptured and the so-called Christian people who got left behind became the elect is still unknown. it is probably a combination of them all.
[SIZE=.75em]" [/SIZE]Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. "

It's a Trial , & Christians especially MUST be tried: It is God's will to prove who really wants Him.
this is true to a point because every Christian has tribulations which enable then to grow closer to God and mature into a fully grown man of God. but the great trib is different from the tribulations we go through during our daily growth.
"Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. THEN....... THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN will appear in heaven, and THEN .......ALL OF THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH SHALL MOURN, and [ AT THIS VERY TIME ] & they will see the Son of Man COMING ...on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And [ AT THIS VERY TIME ] He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT...]from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

This is 100% proof about WHEN HE returns; the Timing of it, & He does not return TWICE, or in the secret places.


Here He makes it abundantly clear.
We ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

[SIZE=.75em] This[/SIZE] is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: [ The WHY of the Great Tribulation.]
this not the why of the great trib but the why we must endure trials and temptations during our lifetimes. otherwise what about all those that went before us that never went through the great trib?
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; [SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]and to you who are troubled rest with us,
......when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, [SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:...[ SO JESUS RETURNS...]
here I believe you are mistaken. these 3 verses refer to Jesus taking his wrath out on those that refuse to obey God and those that do not know God.
[SIZE=.75em] real wrath>>>[/SIZE] shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
everlasting destruction as punishment of God's real wrath to my knowledge is unscriptural. I read 2 thes 1:9 but that verse is being referred to as the lake of fire and not God's wrath.

THE TIMING OF HIS RETURN IS THE SAME AS THE RAPTURE.

[SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
now if the verse before this one is referring to the lake of fire then this verse is referring to those believers that survived the great trib.
I know it's hard, because you have been drilled day & night that you are going to fly away & the Tribulation is Wrath; while the simple Word declares that it is not! but a TRIAL...just like the Church has always suffered...Look at the apostles & the Early church, & Hebrews 11....The Hall of fame of Faith! Persecution !

I have traveled to the authentic Underground Church in China, 1000 miles in the Countryside, where they came to me in the night...because they would be arrested if caught gathering in His Name. Many had already fled facing prison; some were. They were impoverished, with most of the men gone...or hidden. I call them "THE HUNTED CHURCH."...which is exactly what Hebrews 11 is about.

BUT.............They knew that this was not Wrath; It was a Privilege to them, & that God loved them, no matter what. It was Persecution, & a Trial they must endure. We in the West will soon have our opportunity to shine for Jesus in this Great Tribulation coming.

No monetary system; everything collapsed...no Internet, food, gas & invading armies...no relief ...no hospitals or Nursing homes functioning...no police or National guard.....& burning & murder...for quite a while....3 1/2 years.....& a Religion coming, Islam, that will murder you if you do not kneel down & declare Allah as Jehovah...& worship him....& then you can eat & drink & live.

When this happens 7 angels what will you do? Will you wait to fly away? It will not happen until a day...& I think it will be close to the autumn of 1919.

It begins in the second week of March, 2016. How do we prepare? All for Jesus today; No matter the cost.....Let Him consume you now....keep repenting inside of all pride, lust & selfishness, & learn to worship Him in Spirit & Truth.

God has never forsaken ANYONE who has put their trust in Him.

I will be beheaded...& in a way...I can't wait.


Let us learn to pray for each other that we may be purified & endure by faith.

What do you think this means?

Revelation 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
this too long to explain at this time. but to sum it up this verse was written to the church of Smyma to encourage them also it has a second purpose of showing the present church what how to deal with similar situations.

God bless

 

[Brothertom]

Sigh. God bless you too.

 

[PeterAV]

But lot of the Pre-trib rapture doctrine folks think they have a valid way around those direct Scriptures by our Lord Jesus. They treat those Scriptures as being for the ISRAEL ONLY, and not Christ's Church.

That is why Jesus made sure to say what he said in Mark 13:37
Plus, one of the twelve disciples was a Gentile; Simon the Caananite.
Scriptures always trump opinions of men.

 

[iamlamad]

Oliver

1Th_5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

( Note! The words tribulation (in Matt 4:21)and affliction (in Mark 13:19) are from the same Greek word: thlipsis. )

How can you reconcile your interpretations or your statements with the following verses spoken by Jesus?

Matt 24:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning comes out of the east, and shines even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wherever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Mark 13:
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he has chosen, he has shortened the days.
21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

I can’t see any possibility that anyone who understands English would believe in a pre tribulation coming when the word “after” means “after”, not pre or before!!! The verses Jesus said, I quote using only scripture rather than 50 pages of boring opinions and many ambiguous, vague, uncertain, confusing, capable of being misinterpreted.etc. verses that can’t be agreed on by any or all Bible readers!!!

it is very simple; NONE of what is written here has anything to do with Paul's rapture. This gathering gathers from HEAVEN not earth. It is not Paul's rapture. You cannot find the rapture ANYWHERE but in Paul's writing, because He is the only writer of the New Testament that received the revelation of the rapture.

Lamad

"Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. THEN....... THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN will appear in heaven, and THEN .......ALL OF THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH SHALL MOURN, and [ AT THIS VERY TIME ] & they will see the Son of Man COMING ...on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And [ AT THIS VERY TIME ] He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT...]from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."



This is the Rapture & our Blessed Hope. How can you twist it to defy it's simplicity? The way I see it, the doctrine of men that coddles the flesh...& convinces men that suffering ultimate Persecution is indeed Wrath. It is NOT!

....."Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. .. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. ..
They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, ....were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— of whom the world was not worthy.
They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.
And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith...."...Hebrews
Somehow it comforts some who are believing the Rosy bed of Rapture..& travels closely to Once Saved Always Saved wicked HERESY......no sorrow , no trouble.& no judgment of sin.....proclaiming it as impossible. The stark truth is that ALL who live Godly shall suffer Tribulation, & there WILL be foolish Virgins.


In the next few years, there will be more beheadings of true Christians than in all of History ever...by the millions.
[ The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years ] And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been BEHEADED for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."
MILLIONS...by wicked Islam & the Anti-christ...& if your not preparing your heart by faith now? Today? How will you gain the oil when that dark night comes.....& coming it is. March, 2016...or near...the Great Tribulation arrives.[ 42 months ]....with war in America, & occupation after her defeat....the days of Horror...along with the greatest Glory the Earth has ever seen for those prepared & making theirselves ready .

WAKE UP, Tom! "from one end of heaven to the other." Paul's rapture gathers from under the earth, then on the earth. This gathering is NOT the rapture. Lamad

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, PeterAV.

That is why Jesus made sure to say what he said in Mark 13:37
Plus, one of the twelve disciples was a Gentile; Simon the Caananite.
Scriptures always trump opinions of men.

Sorry, but that's not right. The word "Canaanite" was a mistranslation of the Greek word "Kananaios" which stems from the Hebrew word "qaanaa'" meaning "zealous!" He is Simon the Zealot!


NT:2580a Kananaios (kan-an-ahee'-os); originating from the Hebrew [OT:7065, which see]; a member of a fanatical, Jewish, nationalistic, political sect: a Cananean, a Zealot, a revolutionary.

OT:7065 qaanaa' (kaw-naw'); a primitive root; to be (causatively, make) zealous, i.e. (in a bad sense) jealous or envious:
KJV - (be) envy (-ious), be (move to, provoke to) jealous (-y), X very, (be) zeal (-ous).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

 

[daq]

it is very simple; NONE of what is written here has anything to do with Paul's rapture. This gathering gathers from HEAVEN not earth. It is not Paul's rapture. You cannot find the rapture ANYWHERE but in Paul's writing, because He is the only writer of the New Testament that received the revelation of the rapture.

Lamad

WAKE UP, Tom! "from one end of heaven to the other." Paul's rapture gathers from under the earth, then on the earth. This gathering is NOT the rapture. Lamad

Paul is not speaking something "totally new" originating with himself but rather speaks from what is already written in Torah, Prophets, and Writings, yet having now been interpreted through the Testimony of Yeshua in both the Gospel accounts and the Revelation of Yeshua. Have you never read how the faithful in Tanak are variously said to have been "gathered unto his people" each in his respective times? One must first realize that Paul is sent to the nations and kings of the sons of Israel:

Acts 9:10-15
10. And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11. And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12. And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13. Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14. And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15. But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Acts 9:15 Transliterated Unaccented
15. Eipen de pros auton ho Kurios, "Poreuou, hotiskeuos ekloges estin moi houtos tou bastasai to onomamou enopion ethnon te kai basileon huion te Israel.

"kai basileon huion te Israel" ~ "and the kings of the sons of Israel"

Exodus 33:1-6
1. And the Lord said unto Moses, Depart, and go up hence, thou and the people which thou hast brought up out of the land of Egypt, unto the land which I sware unto Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, saying, Unto thy seed will I give it:
2. And I will send an Angel before thee; and I will drive out the Canaanite, the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite:
3. Unto a land flowing with milk and honey: for I will not go up in the midst of thee; for thou art a stiffnecked people: lest I consume thee in the way.
4. And when the people heard these evil tidings, they mourned: and no man did put on him his head-piece-ornaments.
5. For the Lord had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in one-'echad rega`-moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy head-piece-ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee.
6. And the children of Israel snatched off their head-piece-ornaments from the mount Horeb.

Original Strong's Ref. #7281
Romanized rega`
Pronounced reh'-gah
from HSN7280. a wink (of the eyes), i.e. a very short space of time:
KJV--instant, moment, space, suddenly.

Now therefore, O ye kings, if you desire so much to be "raptured" in the way in which Paul truly speaks as a Pharisee of Pharisees from Torah then pluck off those head-piece-ornaments from your own mount Horeb seated between your shoulder blades so that the Most High may show you what he is about to do with you. He will come up in your midst in one moment, in the twinkling of an eye, and consume you: your eyes of the flesh seeing all things according to the flesh will consume away in their sockets as you stand upon your feet; your little horn tongue of the flesh speaking all things according to the fleshly-carnal man lighting on fire the fires of Gehenna shall be consumed in his mouth as you stand upon your feet. Then shall you be gathered to your people of Israel, then shall you see with new eyes of Spirit and walk according to the Spirit of the Testimony of Yeshua, then shall you worship God in Spirit and in Truth, and so shall you ever be with the Lord.

 

[Saint]

Simon the Zealot is a mystery as to his origin; one of the most obscure among the apostles!

 

[daq]

Shalom, PeterAV.


Sorry, but that's not right. The word "Canaanite" was a mistranslation of the Greek word "Kananaios" which stems from the Hebrew word "qaanaa'" meaning "zealous!" He is Simon the Zealot!


NT:2580a Kananaios (kan-an-ahee'-os); originating from the Hebrew [OT:7065, which see]; a member of a fanatical, Jewish, nationalistic, political sect: a Cananean, a Zealot, a revolutionary.

OT:7065 qaanaa' (kaw-naw'); a primitive root; to be (causatively, make) zealous, i.e. (in a bad sense) jealous or envious:
KJV - (be) envy (-ious), be (move to, provoke to) jealous (-y), X very, (be) zeal (-ous).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Sorry but your statement is also not correct. Simon hoKananaios, ("the Canaanite") was transformed into Simon hoZelotes, ("the Zealous") just as was the Canaanite woman of Tyre who came to Messiah in Matthew 15:21-28 and became a lost sheep of the house of Israel, (Matthew 15:24) that was graffed into the Olive Tree of YHWH, (Jeremiah 11:16-17, Romans 11:17) BY FAITH, (Matthew 15:28). There is a fine line between jealous and zealous yet perhaps the natural man cannot perceive it and therefore says to himself that there is an error in Scripture rather than in the machinations of his vain imagination.

Zechariah 14:20-21 KJV
20. In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

Each in his or her own appointed times . . .

 

[veteran]

it is very simple; NONE of what is written here has anything to do with Paul's rapture. This gathering gathers from HEAVEN not earth. It is not Paul's rapture. You cannot find the rapture ANYWHERE but in Paul's writing, because He is the only writer of the New Testament that received the revelation of the rapture.

Lamad

WAKE UP, Tom! "from one end of heaven to the other." Paul's rapture gathers from under the earth, then on the earth. This gathering is NOT the rapture. Lamad

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(KJV)


I guess the Pre-trib Rapture doctors forgot to tell you about that Mark 13 version there. That's about the gathering of the saints on earth to heaven, and it's after the tribulation as written there.

Thus both the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:27 Scripture has the 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15 events covered, the asleep saints are raised and Jesus brings them with Him, and the saints still alive on earth are changed to be caught up with them and Jesus on the way to Jerusalem, for that's where Scripture declares His return is to oin that day.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, daq.

Sorry but your statement is also not correct. Simon hoKananaios, ("the Canaanite") was transformed into Simon hoZelotes, ("the Zealous") just as was the Canaanite woman of Tyre who came to Messiah in Matthew 15:21-28 and became a lost sheep of the house of Israel, (Matthew 15:24) that was graffed into the Olive Tree of YHWH, (Jeremiah 11:16-17, Romans 11:17) BY FAITH, (Matthew 15:28). There is a fine line between jealous and zealous yet perhaps the natural man cannot perceive it and therefore says to himself that there is an error in Scripture rather than in the machinations of his vain imagination.

Zechariah 14:20-21 KJV
20. In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

Each in his or her own appointed times . . .

As usual, you're just being contrary ... and VERY ANNOYING! I'm surprised that you didn't say what I said earlier than I, but I'm not surprised that, just because I said it first, you had to disagree with me.

Your statement, "Simon hoKananaios, ("the Canaanite")," is WRONG! Again, "ho Kananaios" does NOT mean "the Canaanite!" WRONG WORD!!! "Kananaios" is from the Hebrew word "qaanaa'," spelled qof/qamets-nun/qamets-alef, TRANSLITERATED into Greek!

The words that were translated properly as "of Canaan" in Matthew 15:22 was...


NT:5478 Chananaios or Chanaanaios (khan-ah-an-ah'-yos); from NT:5477; a Chanaanoean (i.e. Kenaanite), or native of gentile Palestine:
KJV - of Canaan.


NT:5477 Chanaan (khan-ah'-an); of Hebrew origin [OT:3667]; Chanaan (i.e. Kenaan), the early name of Palestine:
KJV - Chanaan.

OT:3667 Kena`an (ken-ah'-an); from OT:3665; humiliated; Kenaan, a son a Ham; also the country inhabited by him:
KJV - Canaan, merchant, traffick.

OT:3665 kana` (kaw-nah'); a primitive root; properly, to bend the knee; hence, to humiliate, vanquish:
KJV - bring down (low), into subjection, under, humble (self), subdue.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

"Kaana`" is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WORD! It's spelled "kaf/qamets-nun/patach-`ayin." They only have a "nun" in common! And, the Greek is totally different, as well! "Kananaios" begins with a "kappa"; "Chananaios" begins with a "chi!"

It's not that I think that "there is an error in Scripture" but that there was a human error in TRANSLATION!

 

[daq]

Shalom, daq.


As usual, you're just being contrary ... and VERY ANNOYING! I'm surprised that you didn't say what I said earlier than I, but I'm not surprised that, just because I said it first, you had to disagree with me.

Your statement, "Simon hoKananaios, ("the Canaanite")," is WRONG! Again, "ho Kananaios" does NOT mean "the Canaanite!" WRONG WORD!!! "Kananaios" is from the Hebrew word "qaanaa'," spelled qof/qamets-nun/qamets-alef, TRANSLITERATED into Greek!

The words that were translated properly as "of Canaan" in Matthew 15:22 was...


NT:5478 Chananaios or Chanaanaios (khan-ah-an-ah'-yos); from NT:5477; a Chanaanoean (i.e. Kenaanite), or native of gentile Palestine:
KJV - of Canaan.


NT:5477 Chanaan (khan-ah'-an); of Hebrew origin [OT:3667]; Chanaan (i.e. Kenaan), the early name of Palestine:
KJV - Chanaan.

OT:3667 Kena`an (ken-ah'-an); from OT:3665; humiliated; Kenaan, a son a Ham; also the country inhabited by him:
KJV - Canaan, merchant, traffick.

OT:3665 kana` (kaw-nah'); a primitive root; properly, to bend the knee; hence, to humiliate, vanquish:
KJV - bring down (low), into subjection, under, humble (self), subdue.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

"Kaana`" is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WORD! It's spelled "kaf/qamets-nun/patach-`ayin." They only have a "nun" in common! And, the Greek is totally different, as well! "Kananaios" begins with a "kappa"; "Chananaios" begins with a "chi!"

It's not that I think that "there is an error in Scripture" but that there was a human error in TRANSLATION!

Sorry but you are simply making things up again, (for whatever reason I know not). Both imply variations of the same meaning and are simply two different ways of writing the same word. The woman of Canaan, (a noun and a place) is said to be of Chananaia by the same author as you have said, (Matthew 15:22) which is translated in the KJV as a woman of "Canaan" whereas the majority of other translators take the liberty of translating this same word as a "Canaanitish" woman or a "Canaanitess", (as found in the Young's Literal Bible Translation). These minute technicalities are important and INTENTIONALLY placed in the text because, as I said, there is a fine line between JEALOUS and ZEALOUS.

Zechariah 14:21 KJV
21. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite [HSN#3669 Kna`aniy] in the house of the Lord of hosts.

Original Strong's Ref. #3669
Romanized Kna`aniy
Pronounced ken-ah-an-ee'
patrial from HSN3667; a Kenaanite or inhabitant of Kenaan; by implication, a pedlar (the Canaanites standing for their neighbors the Ishmaelites, who conducted mercantile caravans):
KJV--Canaanite, merchant, trafficker.

Original Strong's Ref. #3667
Romanized Kna`an
Pronounced ken-ah'-an
from HSN3665; humiliated; Kenaan, a son a Ham; also the country inhabited by him:
KJV--Canaan, merchant, traffick.

Zechariah 14:21 Greek OT: Septuagint - Transliterated
21. kai estai pas lebēs en ierousalēm kai en tō iouda agion tō kuriō pantokratori kai ēxousin pantes oi thusiazontes kai lēmpsontai ex autōn kai epsēsousin en autois kai ouk estai chananaios ouketi en tō oikō kuriou pantokratoros en tē ēmera ekeinē .
http://biblehub.com/sept/zechariah/14.htm

Hebrew "Kna`aniy" was translated into Greek as "Chananaios" 270 years before Messiah so Matthew surely knew of it.
However, you appear not to have taken into account statements in the Scripture such as the following:

Numbers 25:11 YGB
11. 'Phinehas, son of Eleazar, son of Aaron the priest, hath turned back My fury from the sons of Israel, by his being zealous [HSN#7065 qana'] with My zeal [HSN#7068 qin'ah] in their midst, and I have not consumed the sons of Israel in My zeal [HSN#7068 qin'ah].

Numbers 25:10-13 KJV
10. And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
11. Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.
12. Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:
13. And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.

Exodus 34:14 KJV
14. For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Exodus 34:14 TUA Transliterated Unaccented
14. Kiy lo' tishtachweh l'el 'acher. Kiy YHWHQana' shmow 'El qana' huw'.

"YHWH-Qana' [is] his name! 'El qana' he is!"

Matthew employs the spelling "Simon hoKananaios" not because he was ZEALOUS for his God like Eleazar but because he was rather still like Simon Judas Iskariotes, and JEALOUS like a Canaanite, having jealousy in his heart, (Kananaios). The woman of Chananaia, (Canaan) was simply a woman of that region yet did not have jealousy left in her heart, (which would mean that she might also have been called Kananaios) because she came in repentance, seeking truth and help for her demon possessed daughter, and she was graffed into the fold of Israel. When therefore Simon ho-Kananaios was converted his name is then changed to ZELOTES meaning ZEALOUS which is completely different in Greek. This does not mean that Simon Zelotes was a "zealot-revolutionary" in the sense that you probably imagine but rather ZEALOUS for his God like Eleazar the priest as shown above. This kind of Zeal is Qana' as you have also now shown in your own comments. So you either intended to lend support to my Scripture conclusions against your own or you simply do not know what you are talking about.

Luke informs the reader what occurred when he states that Simon was surnamed, (at a later date) Zelotes:

Luke 6:15 KJV
15. Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called [GSN#2564 kaleo] Zelotes,

Luke 6:15 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented)
15. kai Maththaion kai Thoman kaiIakobon {*} Halfaiou kai Simona (ton kaloumenon Zeloten)

Original Strong's Ref. # 2564
Romanized kaleo
Pronounced kal-eh'-o
akin to the base of GSN2753; to "call" (properly, aloud, but used in a variety of applications, dir. or otherwise):
KJV--bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-)name (was [called]).

Acts 1:12-13 KJV
12. Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
13. And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

Now if you will say that Matthew really intends that Simon "Kananaios" is from Kana, (that is Cana of Galilee) then how does that affect my position? It does not. However, you are missing the more prescient point that this Simon just the same as Simon Petros and the rest, (except for Simon Judas Iskariotes) had received a new name having been written in a white stone, (at a later date after the resurrection of Yeshua) when he was eventually converted.

And for such an event to occur one must first be "caught up" to the Bematos tou Christou . . .

 

[dragonfly]

That was an interesting post, daq.

 

[daq]

That was an interesting post, daq.

All judgment is delivered unto the Son of man which is the title of the true and legitimate High Priest. Some will be raised to everlasting life but others to everlasting shame and contempt; for we must all stand before the Bematos-Judgment of Messiah that each one may receive for the things done in his body, according to what he has done, whether good or evil. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men, for the High Priest after the order of Melchizedek is the only one having the right to divide the Light from the Darkness and he does so in the times appointed of the Father; each in his or her own appointed times, (and a son is born into the Kingdom). Those who overcome shall receive a leukos-white stone of Light with a new name having been written therein. Those not overcoming in their own appointed times are castaway twice dead fish and receive the strong delusion of the black stone of the black light of the blackness of darkness forever.

If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness; how great is that darkness!

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, daq.

Sorry but you are simply making things up again, (for whatever reason I know not). Both imply variations of the same meaning and are simply two different ways of writing the same word. The woman of Canaan, (a noun and a place) is said to be of Chananaia by the same author as you have said, (Matthew 15:22) which is translated in the KJV as a woman of "Canaan" whereas the majority of other translators take the liberty of translating this same word as a "Canaanitish" woman or a "Canaanitess", (as found in the Young's Literal Bible Translation). These minute technicalities are important and INTENTIONALLY placed in the text because, as I said, there is a fine line between JEALOUS and ZEALOUS.

Zechariah 14:21 KJV
21. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite [HSN#3669 Kna`aniy] in the house of the Lord of hosts.

Original Strong's Ref. #3669
Romanized Kna`aniy
Pronounced ken-ah-an-ee'
patrial from HSN3667; a Kenaanite or inhabitant of Kenaan; by implication, a pedlar (the Canaanites standing for their neighbors the Ishmaelites, who conducted mercantile caravans):
KJV--Canaanite, merchant, trafficker.

Original Strong's Ref. #3667
Romanized Kna`an
Pronounced ken-ah'-an
from HSN3665; humiliated; Kenaan, a son a Ham; also the country inhabited by him:
KJV--Canaan, merchant, traffick.

Zechariah 14:21 Greek OT: Septuagint - Transliterated
21. kai estai pas lebēs en ierousalēm kai en tō iouda agion tō kuriō pantokratori kai ēxousin pantes oi thusiazontes kai lēmpsontai ex autōn kai epsēsousin en autois kai ouk estai chananaios ouketi en tō oikō kuriou pantokratoros en tē ēmera ekeinē .
http://biblehub.com/sept/zechariah/14.htm

Hebrew "Kna`aniy" was translated into Greek as "Chananaios" 270 years before Messiah so Matthew surely knew of it.
However, you appear not to have taken into account statements in the Scripture such as the following:

Numbers 25:11 YGB
11. 'Phinehas, son of Eleazar, son of Aaron the priest, hath turned back My fury from the sons of Israel, by his being zealous [HSN#7065 qana'] with My zeal [HSN#7068 qin'ah] in their midst, and I have not consumed the sons of Israel in My zeal [HSN#7068 qin'ah].

Numbers 25:10-13 KJV
10. And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
11. Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.
12. Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:
13. And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.

Exodus 34:14 KJV
14. For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Exodus 34:14 TUA Transliterated Unaccented
14. Kiy lo' tishtachweh l'el 'acher. Kiy YHWHQana' shmow 'El qana' huw'.

"YHWH-Qana' [is] his name! 'El qana' he is!"

Matthew employs the spelling "Simon hoKananaios" not because he was ZEALOUS for his God like Eleazar but because he was rather still like Simon Judas Iskariotes, and JEALOUS like a Canaanite, having jealousy in his heart, (Kananaios). The woman of Chananaia, (Canaan) was simply a woman of that region yet did not have jealousy left in her heart, (which would mean that she might also have been called Kananaios) because she came in repentance, seeking truth and help for her demon possessed daughter, and she was graffed into the fold of Israel. When therefore Simon ho-Kananaios was converted his name is then changed to ZELOTES meaning ZEALOUS which is completely different in Greek. This does not mean that Simon Zelotes was a "zealot-revolutionary" in the sense that you probably imagine but rather ZEALOUS for his God like Eleazar the priest as shown above. This kind of Zeal is Qana' as you have also now shown in your own comments. So you either intended to lend support to my Scripture conclusions against your own or you simply do not know what you are talking about.

Luke informs the reader what occurred when he states that Simon was surnamed, (at a later date) Zelotes:

Luke 6:15 KJV
15. Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called [GSN#2564 kaleo] Zelotes,

Luke 6:15 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented)
15. kai Maththaion kai Thoman kaiIakobon {*} Halfaiou kai Simona (ton kaloumenon Zeloten)

Original Strong's Ref. # 2564
Romanized kaleo
Pronounced kal-eh'-o
akin to the base of GSN2753; to "call" (properly, aloud, but used in a variety of applications, dir. or otherwise):
KJV--bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-)name (was [called]).

Acts 1:12-13 KJV
12. Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
13. And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

Now if you will say that Matthew really intends that Simon "Kananaios" is from Kana, (that is Cana of Galilee) then how does that affect my position? It does not. However, you are missing the more prescient point that this Simon just the same as Simon Petros and the rest, (except for Simon Judas Iskariotes) had received a new name having been written in a white stone, (at a later date after the resurrection of Yeshua) when he was eventually converted.

And for such an event to occur one must first be "caught up" to the Bematos tou Christou . . .

Again, you're just being contrary for contrariness' sake! The more you talk, however, the more you prove that you know NOTHING about Hebrew except what you can glean from a lexicon! You're always taking it away from the Hebrew and passing it to the Greek with no thought about the Jewishness of either the people or the language.

Shim`own was simply a radical before he met the Master. His thoughts were like others of his people who wanted to throw off the tyranny of Roma and once again have a king like Daveed. He longed for the days of Daveed's golden kingdom age that was promised to come again under the rulership of the Messiah when He came as predicted by the prophets.

Here are the words that were TRANSLITERATED from the Greek into the "English" word Zelotes.


NT:2208 Zeelootees (dzay-lo-tace'); the same as NT:2208 [sic, 2207]; a Zealot, i.e. (specially) partisan for Jewish political independence:
KJV - Zelotes.


NT:2207 zeelootees (dzay-lo-tace'); from NT:2206; a "zealot":
KJV - zealous.

NT:2206 zeelo-oo (dzay-lo'-o) or zeeleuoo (dzay-loo'-o); from NT:2205; to have warmth of feeling for or against:
KJV - affect, covet (earnestly), (have) desire, (move with) envy, be jealous over, (be) zealous (-ly affect).

NT:2205 zeelos (dzay'-los); from NT:2204; properly, heat, i.e. (figuratively) "zeal" (in a favorable sense, ardor; in an unfavorable one, jealousy, as of a husband [figuratively, of God], or an enemy, malice):
KJV - emulation, envy (-ing), fervent mind, indignation, jealousy, zeal.

NT:2204 zeoo (dzeh'-o); a primary verb; to be hot (boil, of liquids; or glow, of solids), i.e. (figuratively) be fervid (earnest):
KJV - be fervent.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

One absolutely MUST understand that the two Greek words, "Zeelootees" and "Kananaios," are synonymous! The first is a pure GREEK word, and the second is a Greek TRANSLITERATION of a HEBREW word! And, neither one has ANYTHING to do with "Chananaios!" They are as different from "Chananaios" as salt is from sugar! They may LOOK the same, but they sure don't TASTE the same! And they certainly don't have the same chemical formula: NaCl is FAR different than C12H22O11! And, if you will simply look at the above definitions from Strong's, both here and in post #227 above, you will see that BOTH words Zeelootees and Kananaios mean BOTH "zealous" and "jealous" because they simply mean "hot" or "passionate," whether positively or negatively applied.

 

[iamlamad]

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(KJV)


I guess the Pre-trib Rapture doctors forgot to tell you about that Mark 13 version there. That's about the gathering of the saints on earth to heaven, and it's after the tribulation as written there.

Thus both the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:27 Scripture has the 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15 events covered, the asleep saints are raised and Jesus brings them with Him, and the saints still alive on earth are changed to be caught up with them and Jesus on the way to Jerusalem, for that's where Scripture declares His return is to oin that day.

Good try, Veteran, but still wrong. NO PART of Paul's rapture takes place in heaven. Yes, as Paul said, Jesus will bring the spirits of those who have died in Christ with Him. But that is NOT Paul's "gathering." Paul's gathering is the dead in Christ AFTER they spirits have rejoined their resurrected bodies, with those who are alive and remain that are caught up TOGETHER [gathering]. And Paul's gathering comes at a time of peace and safety. There will be NO PEACE and SAFETY after the start of the 70th week and Day of the Lord - especially after 7 years of destruction! Paul's rapture comes BEFORE the Day of the Lord. While those in the darkness get the sudden Destruction of the START of the day, those living in the light of the gospel will get "salvation" [Rapture] and get to "live together with Him." In Revelation that will happen at the 6th seal. The earthquake at the 6th seal is the SUDDEN DESTRUCTION Paul mentions. So you are at least 7 years off in your theory.

Lamad

 

[ENOCH2010]

Good try, Veteran, but still wrong. NO PART of Paul's rapture takes place in heaven. Yes, as Paul said, Jesus will bring the spirits of those who have died in Christ with Him. But that is NOT Paul's "gathering." Paul's gathering is the dead in Christ AFTER they spirits have rejoined their resurrected bodies, with those who are alive and remain that are caught up TOGETHER [gathering]. And Paul's gathering comes at a time of peace and safety. There will be NO PEACE and SAFETY after the start of the 70th week and Day of the Lord - especially after 7 years of destruction! Paul's rapture comes BEFORE the Day of the Lord. While those in the darkness get the sudden Destruction of the START of the day, those living in the light of the gospel will get "salvation" [Rapture] and get to "live together with Him." In Revelation that will happen at the 6th seal. The earthquake at the 6th seal is the SUDDEN DESTRUCTION Paul mentions. So you are at least 7 years off in your theory.

Lamad

Lamad where in world today, is there peace and safety now?

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Your statement,
As if to drive home the fact that the church is not Israel, Gentile Christians are not allowed to be circumcised, whereas circumcision is the essential mark of being a part of Israel, and the uncircumcised were cut off from the people.
Scriptures statement,
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

We are Jew (Israel) because we are circumcised of the heart. This is part of the new covenant.

 

[veteran]

Good try, Veteran, but still wrong. NO PART of Paul's rapture takes place in heaven.

You don't realize how wrong you are about that. You're clearly not aware where the Heavenly is going to manifest on that day.

Yes, as Paul said, Jesus will bring the spirits of those who have died in Christ with Him. But that is NOT Paul's "gathering." Paul's gathering is the dead in Christ AFTER they spirits have rejoined their resurrected bodies, with those who are alive and remain that are caught up TOGETHER [gathering].

I suggest you look at the 1 Thess.4 Scripture again, starting at verse 13.

1Thes 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

Those asleep saints that have died are already with Him, as per what Paul taught in 1 Cor.5. I do not believe in the literal putting back of one's spirit into the casket. That is why Paul says there our Lord Jesus brings them WITH Him when He returns back to this earth. That is the Matt.24:31 event, the gathering from one end of heaven to the other.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

The actual Greek word there for "prevent" is not that at all. The actual Greek word (phthano) means 'to precede' (i.e., go beforehand). Thus the saints still alive on earth at that event will not 'precede' the alseep saints that are already there with Christ which He is going to bring with Him.


16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

This event will occur very quickly. Paul in 1 Cor.15 said "at the twinkling of an eye" is how fast it will occur. Those of us still alive on earth at this event will be changed to our spiritual bodies at an instant, fast as one can blink. The idea is that those still alive on earth must also be changed to the same kind of bodies as the asleep saints that have died. The Mark 13:27 parallels this event, the gathering from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. The extremity of Heaven at that time is going to reach all the way down upon the earth with Christ's feet touching down at the Mount of Olivet.

And Paul's gathering comes at a time of peace and safety. There will be NO PEACE and SAFETY after the start of the 70th week and Day of the Lord - especially after 7 years of destruction! Paul's rapture comes BEFORE the Day of the Lord. While those in the darkness get the sudden Destruction of the START of the day, those living in the light of the gospel will get "salvation" [Rapture] and get to "live together with Him." In Revelation that will happen at the 6th seal. The earthquake at the 6th seal is the SUDDEN DESTRUCTION Paul mentions. So you are at least 7 years off in your theory.


Lamad

You're terribly wrong about that too.

The time of false "Peace and safety" that Apostle Paul warned us of in 1 Thess.5 is... the great tribulation time. And it comes PRIOR to the time of Christ's coming to gather His Church. To this all of Christ's Apostles agree, including the Old Testament prophets, for they were given quite a bit to write about that Day of The LORD when Jesus returns and gathers all His saints.

In 1 Thess.5, it is "they" who will be saying, "Peace and safety", not those in Christ Jesus. The OT prophets like Daniel prophesied of that time of false peace with a false one coming to destroy many using peace, and making craft prosper in his hand (i.e., the final Antichrist).

As for the events of the 6th Seal, that is a parallel to the events of the 6th and 7th Vials. It's the 5th Seal when the false time of "Peace and safety" will be proclaimed by the deceived, which is PRIOR to the 7th Vial being poured out. That is when many of Christ's faithful will be delivered up and persecuted by those proclaiming peace has come.

On the 6th Vial, Jesus warned His saints still on earth that He comes "as a thief". Then on the 7th Vial, God's cup of wrath is poured out upon the wicked, with the battle of Armageddon taking place. That day of battle is The Day of The LORD when Jesus comes and gathers His and makes war against Satan and his host on earth.

Thus your timeline is NOT from Scripture, but from the false Pre-Trib Rapture theory doctors.