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The pre-tribulational rapture

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by oliver, Oct 9, 2012.

  1. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    -- The way the world today is networked and interconnected, there will be relatively few places where the influence of the beast - including the mark - will not be present.
     
  2. tgwprophet

    tgwprophet New Member

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    The Beast will ( I realize scripture does not reveal this...kinda --- On the other hand it does... kinda ) UNIFY the diverse MARKS of the world's monetary systems where applicable. This is why Scripture says it is on the right hand or forehead or it is the name of the Beast or the number of his name. World-wide? You betcha...almost for all except Israel - for Israel will not accept the use of these Marks.
     
  3. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    I'm sorry Oliver I meant to post this in the miss the rapture thread I hope you understand. I posted the quote and reply here by mistake.

    I found it myself.
    Now If I follow your event sequence after the rapture those left behind will still be offered an opportunity to reject the MarkOTB and accept salvation threw Christ, not to mention the Jews that will be evangelizing the world after the new temple disappointment.

    My point is the only thing that took place after Noah entered the ark and Lott left the city was judgement on everyone. No second chance no remnant of Israel, nothing left behind that wasn't destine for destruction. My question is, how can you compare the flood and S&G your interpretation of the rapture event line?
     
  4. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Kaotic, You asked reasonably, so I will reply reasonably.

    Your words: "Jesus say's that the gathering occurs after the tribulation. I understand this as the entire tribulation period. Where do you differ in belief than I do on that? I don't know how long it is. I just know it occurs at the end of tribulation!I"

    There is no entire tribulation period if you are speaking of Daniel's 70th week. If you consider the 70th week, the "tribulation period" than you are still using pre-trib theory language which I thought you despised. I don't know how long it is either but it begins right after the "midst" of the week per Rev. 12:17 and ends at the 7th seal rapture, imo. The 5th seal martyrs are part of this time of persecution and Rev. 13:7-10 describes what is happening in the middle of it.

    Your words: "It occurs at the sound of a trumpet which I know from other verses about the gathering is the seventh and last trumpet and at the end of tribulation at the beginning of the Day of the Lord."

    The Day of the Lord begins with the 7th seal, which is the first trump. There is only one verse that mentions a "last trump" and it is erroneously referred to as the 7th trump of Rev. It is not!

    Your verse:"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,...And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven...And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

    These are the signs of the 6th seal just before the 7th seal rapture.

    Your words: "So tell me. You how you believe different than I do on this. Tell me what those differences are. Are you saying that there's a tribulation period and a great tribulation period? You are saying the rapture takes place in Rev. 6. I say it takes place in Rev. 14."

    Regarding the tribulation, there is only one which begins around the middle of the 70th week and ends at a guesstimated year 5 of the 70th week, give or take a few months.

    I equate the harvest of Rev. 14 to be another picture of the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25 occurring sometime between the 1290th and 1335th day.

    Regarding Rev. 11:18 note: it would be helpful if you put references on your scripture quotes as I don't have the whole bible memorized.

    However, there is only one part of this verse that is in question: "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

    "the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints,"

    I believe the 7th trump ends the 70th week and the vial judgments occur from day 1260-1290 with Armageddon occurring on day 1290. The aforementioned time of judgment is most likely the Bema-seat judgment of Christ and this will most likely occur between days 1260-1290 as well. What will the raptured/resurrected saints be doing between the 7th seal rapture and 7th trumpet judgment? I don't know, probably reuniting with lost loved ones, praising and worshipping the Lord, just having a grand ole time until the solemn occasion of wrath and Armageddon. Imo, some of us will be rewarded with places to rule and reign on earth during the millennium and they are probably given their beginning tasks so there isn't any chaos between the time of Armageddon and Christ's triumphal entry into Jerusalem as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. This is just an opinion.

    Hi Terry, Your words: "You betcha...almost for all except Israel - for Israel will not accept the use of these Marks."

    I respectfully disagree. I believe the use of the mark will begin in Israel and at least 2/3's will accept it. The only part of Israel that is saved is the righteous 1/3 that goes into hiding for 1260 days per Rev. 12:14. This probably includes the 144,000 as well.
     
  5. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shabbat shalom, again, Oliver.

    Continuing on....

    To finish up the last point, I had said,...

    ...and you had asked,...

    After looking at what Yeshua` meant when His words were recorded in John 14:1-3 (which I tried to convey meant "in the New Jerusalem," not "in Heaven," because that is what I see His "Father's house" means), I tried to convey that Yeshua` never implied that He would take us to His Father's house when He came back. He was just saying that they would be together again when He did come back, but that He had a temporary mission of preparing rooms for us in His absence, rooms that we would receive when the New Jerusalem arrives.

    Now, for the Scriptures:

    Ephesians 1:1-2:22
    1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints (Greek: tois hagiois = "to-the holy-ones") which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful (Greek: kai pistois = "and trustful-ones", same case) in Christ Jesus:
    2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ (Greek: en tois epouraniois en Christoo = "in the places-above-the-sky in Messiah"):
    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
    7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
    8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
    9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
    10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
    11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
    12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
    13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    14 Which is the earnest (Greek: arraboon = "down-payment") of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
    15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
    16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
    17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
    18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
    19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
    20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places (Greek: en tois epouraniois = "in the places-above-the-sky"),
    21 Far above (Greek: hupeeranoo = "overly-upward," literally "up-out-of-reach-of") all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
    22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
    23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
    2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Greek: sunekathisen en tois epouraniois en Christoo Ieesou = "gave-us-a-seat-with in the places-above-the-sky in Messiah Yeshua`") :
    7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
    18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
    21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
    KJV


    Thus, the Gentiles in Ephesus to whom Paul was talking used to be the "strangers, aliens, and foreigners." They didn't have a "Messiah"; they didn't have an "All-Powerful God"; they didn't have "the covenants of promise"; and they were "without hope" while within the Greco-Roman world-system. However, he didn't say the same things to the Jews who were there in Ephesus. Why not? Because they already DID have the covenants of promise, the Messiah, and an All-Powerful God! They already possessed the hope of a bright future, according to the prophecies! HOWEVER, when they WERE brought into the Messiah, they became a "fellowcitizen with the saints (the holy-ones)"; they became a part "of the household of God!"

    These Ephesian Gentiles weren't brought up believing in an "All-Powerful God"; they had MANY lesser gods in their pantheon! The closest thing they had was Zeus (Jupiter), the "king of the gods." They weren't brought up being taught the prophecies of the Tanakh (the OT); they would have to LEARN about them AFTER they became members of the Messiah! They didn't know about the commandments; they would have to be TAUGHT the commandments and how the Messiah fulfilled them, keeping every last one of them on their behalf!

    For the Ephesian Jews, all these things were already taught and learned and understood to some degree. When THEY accepted Yeshua` as God's Messiah, any empty, meaningless stories and rituals and practices they had already been taught CAME TO LIFE! They TRULY had a bright future because the Messiah was IN THE PROCESS of fulfilling ALL prophecies!

    If a Gentile believer today is born again, he or she will also have much learning to undo, overcome, and re-learn! IF they were never taught the Bible stories in their youth, they will have to learn them for the first time! If they WERE taught the Bible stories, they still may have to re-learn what they were taught in light of their Jewish heritage! One must admit that most children in churches today are not taught about these Bible stories being a part of their Jewish heritage, the Jewish roots of the Christian faith! Frankly, there is a huge gap between what the Jews knew about the Messiah of prophecy and what modern "Christians" know about "Christ."

    Look at Romans 11. (Sometime when you get the chance, read through the entirety of Romans chapter 9 through chapter 11 to understand more fully what Paul was saying about his brothers, the Jews.)

    Romans 11:1-32
    1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
    2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
    3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
    4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
    5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
    6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
    7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
    8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
    9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
    10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
    11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
    12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
    13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
    14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
    15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead (i.e., RESURRECTION)?
    16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
    17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
    24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (God doesn't renig on His gifts and selection).
    30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
    31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
    32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
    KJV


    See, for Gentile believers, they were naturally outside of God's family, but could be brought in. They are adopted into the family!

    For Jewish believers, they were once naturally INSIDE God's family, but were lopped off so that they, too, could be reunited with the family! They are coming home!

    Consider this passage of Scripture:

    1 John 5:1-5
    5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ (i.e., the Messiah) is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat (the Father) loveth him also that is begotten of him (the Son).
    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous (Greek: bareiai = "weighty; burdensome; grave").
    4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
    5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
    KJV


    So, what does it take for a Jew to be "born of God?" He must believe that Yeshua` is the Messiah! He must also "keep God's commandments," but Yochanan (John) tells us that they are not "grievous" or "burdensome." Why wouldn't they be? They were for the Jews since the days when the Covenant was first made at Mount Sinai. Because, our FAITH, our TRUST is what satisfies "keeping God's commandments." Yochanan also said,...

    1 John 3:1-9
    3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
    2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
    3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    KJV


    It does sound like it until one digs a little deeper.

    Isaiah 26:1-21
    1 In that day shall this song be sung in the land (Hebrew: b'erets = "in the Land") of Judah;

    We have a strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks.
    2 Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in.
    3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.
    4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:
    5 For he bringeth down them that dwell on high; the lofty city, he layeth it low; he layeth it low, even to the ground (Hebrew: 'erets = "Land; dirt"); he bringeth it even to the dust.
    6 The foot shall tread it down, even the feet of the poor, and the steps of the needy.
    7 The way of the just is uprightness: thou, most upright, dost weigh the path of the just.
    8 Yea, in the way of thy judgments, O LORD, have we waited for thee; the desire of our soul is to thy name, and to the remembrance of thee.
    9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth (Hebrew: laa'aarets = "to the Land"), the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
    10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land (Hebrew: b'erets = "in the Land") of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
    11 LORD, when thy hand is lifted up, they will not see: but they shall see, and be ashamed for their envy at the people; yea, the fire of thine enemies shall devour them.
    12 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.
    13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.
    14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
    15 Thou hast increased the nation, O LORD, thou hast increased the nation: thou art glorified: thou hadst removed it far unto all the ends of the earth (Hebrew: kaal qatsveey 'aarets = "all ends of-the-earth").
    16 LORD, in trouble have they visited thee, they poured out a prayer when thy chastening was upon them.
    17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.
    18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth (Hebrew: 'erets = Land); neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
    19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth (Hebrew: vaa'aarets = "and the Land") shall cast out the dead.
    20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
    21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth (Hebrew: haa'aarets = "the Land") for their iniquity: the earth (Hebrew: haa'aarets = "the Land") also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
    KJV


    When the word "kaal" or "kol" is used in conjunction with "'erets," as in verse 15, THEN the word "'erets" can refer to the entirety of the earth, as in "all the lands." Otherwise, one should assume the word refers to "THE LAND" of Isra'el, which was always of primary importance to the Isra'elites. And, since we are indeed talking about a point in time after the resurrection (verse 19), then verse 20 should be talking about YHWH'S wrath focused in the deeds of the Messiah. As such, it makes better sense that the Isra'elites were being told to hide themselves out of the way until the Messiah was done pouring out YHWH'S wrath on the invaders in the Land of Isra'el.

    Right. Yeshua` will continue to reign over Isra'el, but He will turn the WORLD EMPIRE over to His Father. (It's the only way I can think to reconcile this passage with Luke 1:30-33.)

    No, not at all! The parables of Matthew 13 are about the Kingdom, not the church age! Look at it again:

    Matthew 13:1-53
    1 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
    2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
    3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying,
    Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
    4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
    5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
    6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
    7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
    8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
    9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
    11 He answered and said unto them,
    Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
    12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
    13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
    14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
    15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
    16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
    17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
    18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
    19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
    20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
    21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
    22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
    23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

    24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
    25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
    26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
    27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
    28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
    29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
    30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

    31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
    32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

    33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
    34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
    35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
    36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
    37 He answered and said unto them,
    He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
    38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
    39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
    44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
    45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
    46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
    47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
    48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
    49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
    50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
    52 Then said he unto them,
    Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
    53 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence.
    KJV


    Therefore, all of these parables, except perhaps the first parable, are about the Kingdom which begins in the Millennium during the incarceration of haSatan. Each of these parables have elements within them which are either explained, or they are simple enough for the disciples to say, "Yea, Lord," when asked if they understood all these things.

    The first parable, stated in verses 3 to 9, and explained in verses 18 to 23, is concerning the MESSAGE about the Kingdom and the four ways one could react to the message. This is the only parable of Matthew 13 that is about the present. The first person who hears the message, doesn't understand it, and before it can even take root, the devil swoops in and snatches the message away. The second person who hears the message about the Messiah's Kingdom, immediately receives it with joy, but he doesn't have any strength of character, and the first little trouble that comes his way scares him off. The third person who hears the message about the Messiah's Kingdom, receives it and has no problem with it ... until his loyalties are divided. Then, the care of this world system (politics) and the deceitfulness of riches (economics) choke out the message. He doesn't have time for it. Only the last person who not only receives the message but prospers by it will actually produce fruits, varying by how well he can utilize his talents.

    The second parable, stated in verses 24 to 30, and explained in verses 37 to 43, is not about the present at all. It is talking about the future Kingdom! The Kingdom is likened to the man who sows good seed in His field. That is because the presence of the Kingdom can only be experienced with the presence of the King! During the Millennium, the "tares" (or "darnel") spring up among the "wheat." The elements of this parable are quite clear, as Yeshua` spelled them out:

    He that soweth the good seed = the Son of man;
    the field = the world;
    the good seed = the children of the kingdom;
    the tares = the children of the wicked one;
    the enemy that sowed them = the devil;
    the harvest = the end of the world; and
    the reapers = the angels.
    KJV

    There are a number of clues that connect this parable to the Millennium.

    First, the Enemy ("haSatan" in Hebrew) is not present during this growing season. He managed to sow the "tares" or the "darnel" at the very beginning, but he is not there to gloat or make matters worse.

    Second, the gathering of the tares in bundles to burn them is done at the END of the harvest. This corresponds to Revelation 20:8-15 regarding the Great White Throne Judgment.

    Third, and most importantly, the wheat is gathered into his barn. This is compared in the explanation to Yeshua`s statement, "the righteous shall shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father!" This corresponds to Revelation 21 and 22 and also to the very verses you quoted from 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 above! Thus, the END, which is the harvest, will occur at the END of the Millennium before we move into the New Earth and receive the New Jerusalem. I would highly recommend that you attempt a harmony of 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, Revelation 20-22, and 2 Peter 3:3-13 for good measure. And, as far as the character of the Millennium, I think one would profit from a study of Psalm 2:1-12, which I also believe is about the Millennium, not the present.

    In the third parable, the Kingdom of Heaven, or the Kingdom from the Sky (because the KING comes from the sky), is likened to a grain of mustard seed, a very tiny seed that produces a HUGE, bushy herb that rivals a tree for size! This parable talks about the actual, physical size of the Kingdom between the beginning of the Millennium and the end of the Millennium. It is reminiscent of the visions of Nebuchadnezzar in Dani'el 2 and 4:

    Daniel 2:34-35, 44-45
    34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
    35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
    ...

    44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
    45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
    KJV


    as well as ...

    Daniel 4:4-26
    4 I Nebuchadnezzar was at rest in mine house, and flourishing in my palace:
    5 I saw a dream which made me afraid, and the thoughts upon my bed and the visions of my head troubled me.
    6 Therefore made I a decree to bring in all the wise men of Babylon before me, that they might make known unto me the interpretation of the dream.
    7 Then came in the magicians, the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers: and I told the dream before them; but they did not make known unto me the interpretation thereof.
    8 But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name was Belteshazzar, according to the name of my god, and in whom is the spirit of the holy gods: and before him I told the dream, saying,
    9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.
    10 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.
    11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:
    12 The leaves thereof were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all: the beasts of the field had shadow under it, and the fowls of the heaven dwelt in the boughs thereof, and all flesh was fed of it.

    13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;
    14 He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:
    15 Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth:
    16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.
    17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
    18 This dream I king Nebuchadnezzar have seen. Now thou, O Belteshazzar, declare the interpretation thereof, forasmuch as all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known unto me the interpretation: but thou art able; for the spirit of the holy gods is in thee.
    19 Then Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, was astonied for one hour, and his thoughts troubled him. The king spake, and said, Belteshazzar, let not the dream, or the interpretation thereof, trouble thee. Belteshazzar answered and said, My lord, the dream be to them that hate thee, and the interpretation thereof to thine enemies.
    20 The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth;
    21 Whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the fowls of the heaven had their habitation:
    22 It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.

    23 And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;
    24 This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king:
    25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
    26 And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.
    KJV


    In the fourth parable, the Kingdom is compared to the leaven! Thus, the leaven in this parable is NOT a "type of sin!" Never let typology degenerate into typolatry! Don't let types in the Bible become "sacred" to the point that they could never mean anything else than what you were taught they mean! The Kingdom is likened to leaven because this parable is talking about the Kingdom's INFLUENCE! It starts out rather insignificant and inconsequential, as far as the rest of the world will be concerned, but throughout the Millennium, the Kingdom's influence will grow as people begin to recognize the wisdom of the King, much as the ancient world recognized the wisdom of Shlomo (Solomon). Remember how Yeshua` told the scribes and Pharisees among the people, "...A greater than Solomon is here"? The peoples of the earth during the Millennium will learn to listen carefully to the words and decisions of the King of Isra'el, much as the old commercials said about E. F. Hutton: "When E. F. Hutton speaks, everyone listens!"

    In the fifth parable, the Kingdom is compared to a treasure hid in a field. Anyone who finds the treasure - that is, the Kingdom - rehides it and buys the field in which he found it! This parable is talking about the intrinsic value of the Kingdom, and its value is not broadcast to everyone, but one by one people find out the value of the Messiah's Kingdom.

    In the sixth parable, the Kingdom is compared to the MERCHANT MAN, not the "pearl of great price." This parable is talking about how the King will be able to take "great risks," like selling all He owns and buying a single, valuable pearl, and still come out smelling like roses in all His transactions. Even when it looks the bleakest, Yeshua` will be able to turn a profit. It's a little bit racist and a little politically incorrect to say, but not only will He be the Master of masters and the King of kings, but He will also be the Jew of Jews! He will be able to outperform anyone on Wall Street!

    In the seventh parable, the Kingdom is compared to a drag-net or a seining net. Such a net is thrown out over an entire bay and dragged back in, collecting everything in its reach. It will collect fish with fins and scales that are kosher to eat as well as squid, jellyfish, shrimp, lobster, catfish, and other things that are NOT kosher to eat. All of it will be dragged to the beach, and the fishermen will sit down and separate the good from the bad, keeping the good, but discarding the bad stuff.

    Therefore, with the exception of the first parable, the parables of Matthew 13 are about the Millennium and the Kingdom of the Messiah during that time.

    Shalom, again, Oliver.

    I challenge the spatial explanation for the "three heavens." I believe that the chronological explanation for the "three heavens" is better.

    The spatial explanation is the explanation that was greatly propagated by C.I. Scofield in the Scofield Reference Bible. On page 1,238 in the old Scofield Reference Bible, he said within the central column of his notes, and without a Bible reference at all, "first heaven, of clouds; second heaven, of stars; and third heaven, God's abode." I doubt the idea was original with Scofield, but he certainly had a hand in propagating the idea.

    I like PETER'S explanation far better:

    2 Peter 3:3-13
    3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
    4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
    5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
    6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
    7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
    8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
    KJV


    By Peter's description, the first "heavens" (and the first "earth") was before the Flood, the antediluvian world.
    Then, the Flood occurred.
    Then the "heavens" (and the "earth") which are now, are the second "heavens."
    In the future (at the end of the Millennium and before the Great White Throne Judgment), the Fire will occur.
    Then the "new heavens" (and the "new earth") are the third "heavens."

    They are thus described as CHRONOLOGICALLY separated, not SPATIALLY separated!

    This fits the facts MUCH better. Consider 2 Corinthians 12:1-4:

    2 Corinthians 12:1-4
    12 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
    2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
    3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
    4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
    KJV


    Did you know that the word "up" is not found in verse 2? The Greek word translated as "caught up" is "harpagenta," which means "snatched away," not "upward." The same is true in verse 4. The Greek word there is "heerpagee," and basically means the same thing, "snatched away." Both of these are forms of "harpazoo." This passage is talking about a prophetic vision! And, just like other prophetic visions, the person to whom Paul was referring was "snatched away" through time to see things IN THE FUTURE! He saw PETER'S "third heavens!"

    There are only so many words in the Scriptures that were translated as "heaven" or "heavenly" or "heavens." The Greek word "ouranos" is the word simply meaning "the sky." A great proof for this is Matthew 16:1-4!

    Matthew 16:1-4
    1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
    2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
    3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
    4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
    KJV

    First, look this up in the Greek New Testament:

    Kata Maththaion 16:1-4
    1 Kai proselthontes hoi Farisaioi kai Saddoukaioi peirazontes epeerooteesan auton seemeion ek tou ouranou epideixai autois.
    2 Ho de apokritheis eipen autois,
    "Opsias genomenees legete,'Eudia, purrazei gar ho ouranos,'
    3 Kai prooi, 'Seemeron cheimoon, purrazei gar stugnazoon ho ouranos.' To men prosoopon tou ouranou ginooskete diakrinein ta de seemeia toon kairoon ou dunasthe?
    4 Genea poneera kai moichalis seemeion epizeetei, kai seemeion ou dotheesetai autee ei mee to seemeion Ioona."
    Kai katalipoon autous apeelthen.
    Greek New Testament

    Now, all four of the highlighted words above are the same word, merely with different endings for the different parts of speech the word plays in the sentences; however, in verse 1, it is translated "heaven" and in verses 2 and 3, it is translated as "sky!" I don't need a lengthy explanation for WHY this is (and I do NOT believe that it's because of context since all four instances here are in the SAME CONTEXT); all one has to do is acknowledge that it IS the same word. NO ENGLISH VERSION OF THE BIBLE translates it any differently than the translators did for the KJV (except for the Young's Literal Translation, which in my opinion gets it BACKWARDS, anyway)!

    There are other Greek words that are used in the NT that stem from this word by adding different prefixes or different endings, such as "ouranoi," "ouranios," "ouranothen," "mesouraneema," and "epouranios," but these are all compounds from the word "ouranos" meaning "sky." The first is the plural, "skies." The second is the adjective form meaning "of or from the sky." The third means "from the sky." The fourth means "in the middle of the sky" or "mid-sky" and it is used for where the birds fly. The fifth means "of or from above-the-sky." Of these forms, only the last can have anything to do with outside our atmosphere.

    So, show me proof that Scofield was right. I've looked for a long time, and I've come to the conclusion that he was NOT right and that people have a concept about "heaven" that cannot be found in Scripture.
     
  6. revturmoil

    revturmoil New Member

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    Show me a verse that indicates a global mark! You must first show me a verse that indicates a global kingdom. The verses that you do provide are certain to have several misinterpretations. Especially with the word ALL!
    The beast has seven heads and ten horns. That's not worldwide. And what makes you think that all the governments of the world would relinquish their political authority to one man? And with whose military would he do this with?
    Globalism is a pipe dream of the prophecy experts that most of you have fallen for!

    I'm not speaking of Daniel's 70th week. I'm talking about the tribulation mentioned by Jesus in Mt. 24!

    I already told you. I don't know how long tribulation is! I quoted Mathew 24 and that's what I'm talking about! My question was directed to you about Mt. 24!

    Your comment...

    Is a complete fabrication. The Day of the Lord begins at the very end of all tribulation. It doesn't begin at the 7th seal. You had to change the timing and meaning of the seventh and last trumpet.....and you had to change the meaning and timing of the Day of the Lord to fit your eschatology. That's what's called fabrication and perversion of the scriptures! The last trump is the seventh trump because the word last indicates it so.

    Remember what last means?
    1) extreme
    a) last in time or in place
    last in a series of places
    c) last in a temporal succession
    2) the last
    a) last, referring to time
    of space, the uttermost part, the end, of the earth
    c) of rank, grade of worth, last i.e. lowest

    Thayer's say's about the trumpet of 1 Cor. 15:52...
    THE TRUMPET AFTER WHICH NO TRUMPET WILL SOUND.
    And that word 'last' is the same word the Lord uses to describe himself here... Rev 1:17
    And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: (ESCHATOS)
    And here... Rev 22:13
    I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. (ESCHATOS)
    If you can't see that when the word eschatos is used it absolutely means 'LAST'....then you are in denial and will adhere to your false beliefs regardless of the scriptural evidence.

    How about if you leave Daniels 70th week out of Mt. 24.
    Post # 84 is so full of fabrications and contradictions. But you don't care about that because you are faithful to the pre-wrath doctrine and not faithful to the truth in God's Holy Word.
    I could spend a lot of time explaning and exposing the fabrications and contradictions about the pre-wrath position about the rapture/Day of the Lord/last trump. But just like the pre-tribulationist, they'll just continue believing what they believe regardless of the scriptural evidence.

    You said,

    Isaiah 2:10 ¶Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.
    11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
    12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

    The Lord alone is not exalted in Rev. 6 or at the "FIRST TRUMPET" WHERE YOU SAY THE GATHERING OCCURS! IT AMAZES ME THAT GOD'S WORD is clear and SAY'S THE RAPTURE HAPPENS AT THE LAST AND SEVENTH TRUMPET YET YOU SAY IT OCCURS AT THE FIRST TRUMPET!

    Isaiah 13:4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
    5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
    6 ¶Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

    The nations are not gathered at the 6th seal and first trumpet. They are gathered in... Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
    And the battle doesn't occur until...
    The Day of the Lord comes when Jerusalem is in battle and the Lord goes forth and fights against those nations. If that day...the Day of the Lord and battle for Jerusalem, were to happen at the sixth seal, there would be a definite mention of it in Rev. 6, the 6th seal and the first trumpet.

    Zechariah 14:1 ¶Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy (Israel) spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
    2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
    3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
    The gathering to do battle happens in Rev. 16, not rev. 6!
    Rev 16:14
    For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

    And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.

    Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
    The land doesn't lay desolate and the sinners are not destroyed at the sixth seal and first trump.

    Jeremiah 46:10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries:
    That doesn't happen at the 6th seal or first trump either! You're telling me that the Day of the Lord begins at the 6th seal. If you think the following verses are part of the 6th seal... and if you think there are no contradictions to your pre-wrath position...then I give up until you come out of denial!

    The following verses are not part of the 6th seal or first trumpet.

    Ezekiel 13:5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
    Joel 1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
    Joel 2:1 ¶Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
    2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
    Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
    31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
    Before the day of the Lord comes a blood red moon. After the tribulation the moon shall not give her light and be turned to darkness.....a big difference between the two!
    Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
    6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.​
     
  7. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    If you desire to continue to be blinded by your fallacies, so be it. I've been here with you before. Time will tell.
     
  8. revturmoil

    revturmoil New Member

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    You mean the fallacies of Jesus?

    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,...And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven...And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
     
  9. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Retro, All I can say dude is you're really lacking in imagination. All of Christ's teachings on the kingdom of heaven is ours as we appropriate it by faith. If you don't want to believe in heaven I guess you don't have to but I assure you, you won't be disappointed when we get there. I mean really, the millennium age is for the still living physical righteous of the earth that missed out on the rapture. The spiritual has a different destination. Seriously, what would we need to be on the earth for? Are we going to spend a thousand years farming for food we don't need to eat? skipping through fields of daisies? taking nature walks? We can't all be hanging around Jerusalem as there will probably be billions of us. Here's the definition of faith. Heb. 11:1 - "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

    Sounds like heaven to me! You just need the faith to believe it is real. No faith, no heaven. You can logically explain away all the scriptures regarding heaven if you want to. Atheists spend a lot of time doing that. Me, I've got a whole universe to explore!

    Kaotic, Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,...And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven...And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Amen, just as pre-wrath claims! Notice it doesn't say "last trumpet", just "a trumpet".
     
  10. revturmoil

    revturmoil New Member

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    This is why I say you have no hermeneutic. If you did, you would see the fabrications and contradictions and repent of your thinking and...........change your mind.

    Mathew 24 DOESN'T MEAN THE SAME TO YOU AS IT DOES TO ME. YOU'VE CHANGED AND ADDED A WHOLE LOT OF STUFF TO FIT YOUR ESCHATOLOGY!
     
  11. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    I change and add nothing, you're the one trying to pound a round peg into a square hole, not me.
     
  12. revturmoil

    revturmoil New Member

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    You've changed and added nothing?????????????

    How about all of this! And you haven't confronted even one fabrication or contradiction that I've exposed!

    The Day of the Lord begins at the very end of all tribulation. It doesn't begin at the 7th seal. You had to change the timing and meaning of the seventh and last trumpet.....and you had to change the meaning and timing of the Day of the Lord to fit your eschatology. That's what's called fabrication and perversion of the scriptures! The last trump is the seventh trump because the word last indicates it so.

    Remember what last means?
    1) extreme
    a) last in time or in place
    last in a series of places
    c) last in a temporal succession
    2) the last
    a) last, referring to time
    of space, the uttermost part, the end, of the earth
    c) of rank, grade of worth, last i.e. lowest

    Thayer's say's about the trumpet of 1 Cor. 15:52...
    THE TRUMPET AFTER WHICH NO TRUMPET WILL SOUND.
    And that word 'last' is the same word the Lord uses to describe himself here... Rev 1:17
    And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: (ESCHATOS)
    And here... Rev 22:13
    I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. (ESCHATOS)
    If you can't see that when the word eschatos is used it absolutely means 'LAST'....then you are in denial and will adhere to your false beliefs regardless of the scriptural evidence.

    How about if you leave Daniels 70th week out of Mt. 24.
    Post # 84 is so full of fabrications and contradictions. But you don't care about that because you are faithful to the pre-wrath doctrine and not faithful to the truth in God's Holy Word.
    I could spend a lot of time explaning and exposing the fabrications and contradictions about the pre-wrath position about the rapture/Day of the Lord/last trump. But just like the pre-tribulationist, they'll just continue believing what they believe regardless of the scriptural evidence.

    Isaiah 2:10 ¶Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.
    11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
    12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

    The Lord alone is not exalted in Rev. 6 or at the "FIRST TRUMPET" WHERE YOU SAY THE GATHERING OCCURS! IT AMAZES ME THAT GOD'S WORD is clear and SAY'S THE RAPTURE HAPPENS AT THE LAST AND SEVENTH TRUMPET YET YOU SAY IT OCCURS AT THE FIRST TRUMPET!

    Isaiah 13:4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
    5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
    6 ¶Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

    The nations are not gathered at the 6th seal and first trumpet. They are gathered in... Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
    And the battle doesn't occur until...
    The Day of the Lord comes when Jerusalem is in battle and the Lord goes forth and fights against those nations. If that day...the Day of the Lord and battle for Jerusalem, were to happen at the sixth seal, there would be a definite mention of it in Rev. 6, the 6th seal and the first trumpet.

    Zechariah 14:1 ¶Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy (Israel) spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
    2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
    3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
    The gathering to do battle happens in Rev. 16, not rev. 6!
    Rev 16:14
    For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

    And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.

    Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
    The land doesn't lay desolate and the sinners are not destroyed at the sixth seal and first trump.

    Jeremiah 46:10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries:
    That doesn't happen at the 6th seal or first trump either! You're telling me that the Day of the Lord begins at the 6th seal. If you think the following verses are part of the 6th seal... and if you think there are no contradictions to your pre-wrath position...then I give up until you come out of denial!

    The following verses are not part of the 6th seal or first trumpet.

    Ezekiel 13:5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
    Joel 1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
    Joel 2:1 ¶Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
    2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
    Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
    31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
    Before the day of the Lord comes a blood red moon. After the tribulation the moon shall not give her light and be turned to darkness.....a big difference between the two!
    Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
    6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

    The pre-tirb and pre-wrath position changes the meaning of every verse I quoted. But that doesn't matter to you. You're loyal to the pre-wrath position and not the truth that's explicitly expressed on God's Holy Word!
     
  13. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing to defend. If you were to do a study on the "day", last day", "day of the Lord", "that day", etc. all referencing the "day of the Lord", first, it would take you next to a life time and secondly you would see that it contains everything from the 7th seal until the GWTJ. The signs of the 6th seal are a precursor to the start of "the day". I don't say the rapture is at the first trump. It is just before the opening of the 7th seal which sounds the first trump. It doesn't matter what your hermeneutics says because if you're starting with a false assumption, then everything that "proves" that "false assumption" is a bag of air. The defense of post 70th week is as empty as the defense of pre-trib because when you get right down to it with a solid understanding of what the great trib is than pre-wrath is the legitimate post-trib view. Post 70th week is not.
     
  14. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    I'm not the one who missed Paul's point. It's foolishness to heed a doctrine of man that has you dwelling on the question of what trumpet Paul was showing while omitting the very events he attached to it. And those events just so happen to be the resurrection and those on earth being 'changed' at the "twinkling of an eye". Paul was pulling directly from the Isaiah 25 prophecy with that part. The whole chapter's point is his address of what the resurrection is, and with what kind of body it is.

    What the Pre-trib Rapture doctrinists have wrongly taught you do is to modify Paul's writing about that last trump associated with the resurrection and gathering by Christ of His Church. They have you speculating on what Paul knew and didn't know, when they don't want you to understand what events Paul attached to that "last trump".

    1 Cor 15:51-54
    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
    (KJV)


    1Thes 4:14-17
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    (KJV)

    Paul obviously knew about a final trumpet to sound with that event of the dead being raised with Christ's coming and gathering of His Church, both the saints that are 'asleep' and the saints that will be on earth still at His appearing.



    What's important is the LAST trumpet to sound, which the word "last" reveals Paul HAD to have known about more than one. Can you speculate away the possibility that Christ showed Paul? No, you cannot, but that's what the Pre-trib Rapture doctrinists want you to do.

    But stil, that point is NOT ENOUGH to establish what Paul was talking about, because he gave the resurrection of Christ's Church with that "last trump" message. And that IS ENOUGH to know what timing and event he was talking about.



    For someone not studied in the OT prophets but dwells most only in the NT it is like that. And that's what the Pre-trib Rapture doctrinists mostly do. It is not that difficult to grasp if an event in the OT prophets has come to pass yet anymore than it is with unfulfilled prophecy given in the NT. It just requires Biblical discipline of separating their events of history from prophecy that never came to pass.


    You are just spouting doctrines you've been taught by the Pre-trib Rapture school with that, and it shows you haven't really done enough Bible study yourself to be able to even agree with them. Look up that 'gone up' phrase in the Hebrew and how it was used in other Scriptures before you simply assign it away. And don't forget the events it is given with.
     
  15. oliver

    oliver New Member

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    Veteran, you should realise that the only churches I have attended were Anglican. My belief in the pre-tribulation rapture is from my own study, not from being taught to follow it.

    +++

    http://biblesuite.co...w/alah_5927.htm

    The basic meaning is to ascend, not to descend. The only two other places where ‘ā·lāh is used that might be even remotely related to the second coming are these:

    Proverbs 30:4 Who has ascended to heaven and come down?
    Who has gathered the wind in his fists?
    Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment?
    Who has established all the ends of the earth?
    What is his name, and what is his son's name?
    Surely you know!


    Micah 2:13 He who opens the breach goes up before them;
    they break through and pass the gate,
    going out by it.
    Their king passes on before them,
    the LORD at their head.


    This latter must refer to Jesus, but to his resurrection rather than to his return; he is the first fruits of the first resurrection.

    +++

    Of course he knew about more than one. There were many trumpet blasts on the Feast of Trumpets. Only the last one is called that!

    You wish to speculate that he meant something different, even though the events of the 7th trumpet, that was later revealed to John, do not match what you just quoted above about the rapture!
     
  16. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Right... like you and a few million others discovered it all by your lonesome! Pull my other leg and it plays Jingle Bells.
     
  17. oliver

    oliver New Member

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    I don't say I haven't read teachers about it, of course. But I find the arguments for the pre-tribulational rapture by far the most convincing.
     
  18. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    It's my hope that you will go through God's Word for yourself more, asking His help directly. It's not difficult to use the same Bible study tools that many pastors today use to help in that, and still remain in Holy Writ. But going outside Holy Writ before getting a handle on what God's Word actually teaches will create confusion, especially in today's times.

    My French ancestors from the area of Lorraine (Nancy) were Huguenots, having fled to the Americas (Virginia) from the persecutions by the Catholic Church in the 1700's, while some stayed and were killed. They held Bible meetings secretly in their homes, so independent Bible study has been a part of my family heritage.
     
  19. oliver

    oliver New Member

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    Do you think I haven't?!
     
  20. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Trekson.

    I don't have any imagination?! Are you serious?! I'm a Trekkie! Always have been since the early days of Jim Kirk and Spock! My first recollection of a color TV set was with that program running. (We owned a black-and-white set, and I was at a friend's house.) I LOVE Star Trek and have watched every episode of every series! But, we have to remember that all of that is FANTASY! We're barely able to say we've visited the moon and our closest neighbors with probes, and on NONE of them has life ever been found! The earth was made for mankind, and mankind was designed for the earth. Someday, God MAY permit us to travel to distant galaxies, stars, solar systems, and planets, but if He does, it is NOT recorded within the Bible, and I guarantee you based on the Bible that such travel will be in eternity AFTER the Millennium and AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment and AFTER the New Earth with its New Sky has been re-created and AFTER the New Jerusalem has landed!

    We're not IN the Kingdom from the sky, yet, and WHY should I believe in a "Heaven" of which the Scriptures are SILENT?! THINKING THAT WE'RE GOING TO HEAVEN WHEN WE DIE IS the fantasy! Haven't you read about the Millennium at all?!

    Revelation 20:4-6
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection:
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    KJV


    Haven't you ever been told that we will "live and reign with Christ a thousand years"? That's not in the "now"; that's in the future when Yeshua` returns! We will live and reign with the Messiah a thousand years. So, according to prophecy, where will the Messiah reign for that thousand years? Over what will the Messiah reign for that thousand years?

    It will not be until we are on the New Earth, breathing in the air of the New Sky, that we'll finally be HOME! The New Jerusalem - our Father's tent - will be our house and the New Earth will be our backyard! We'll be able to stroll along leisurely within the New Garden of Eden, God's Paradise or God's Park, as it spills out onto the surface of the New Earth! All the things people say are in heaven - the streets of gold, the gates of pearl, the foundations of precious stones, the golden city, the Tree of Life, the Water of Life - these are all to be found in the New Jerusalem! We don't go to "Heaven"; "Heaven" comes to us! THAT'S Scriptural!

    Secondly, you've got a bad definition of "spiritual." I'd like to help you (and others) with that. Look at 1 Corinthians 15:35-57:

    1 Corinthians 15:35-57
    35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
    37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
    38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
    39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
    40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
    47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
    48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
    49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
    55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
    56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
    57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    KJV


    Here's the Greek of this passage, zeroing in on the part involving "spiritual":

    Pros Korinthious A 15:35-57
    35 Alla erei tis, "Poos egeirontai hoi nekroi? Poioo de soomati erchontai?"
    36 Afroon, su ho speireis ou zoo-opoieitai ean mee apothanee;
    37 kai ho speireis, ou to sooma to geneesomenon speireis alla gumnon kokkon ei

    tuchoi sitou ee tinos toon loipoon,
    38 ho de Theos didoosin autoo sooma kathoos eetheleesen, kai hekastoo toon

    spermatoon idion sooma.
    39 Ou pasa sarx hee autee sarx,
    alla allee men anthroopoon,
    allee de sarx kteenoon,
    allee de sarx pteenoon,
    allee de ichthuoon.
    40 Kai soomata epourania,
    kai soomata epigeia;
    alla hetera men hee toon epouranioon doxa,
    hetera de hee toon epigeioon (doxa).
    41 Allee doxa heeliou,
    kai allee doxa seleenees,
    kai allee doxa asteroon;
    asteer gar asteros diaferei en doxee.
    42 Houtoos kai hee anastasis toon nekroon.
    Speiretai en fthora,
    Egeiretai en aftharsia;
    43 speiretai en atimia,
    egeiretai en doxee;
    speiretai en astheneia,
    egeiretai en dunamei;
    44 speiretai sooma psuchikon,
    egeiretai sooma pneumatikon.
    Ei estin sooma psuchikon,
    estin kai (sooma) pneumatikon.
    45 Houtoos kai gegraptai:
    “Egeneto ho prootos anthroopos Adam eis psucheen zoosan,”
    ho eschatos (anthroopos) Adam eis pneuma zoo-opoioun.
    46 All’ ou prooton to pneumatikon alla to psuchikon,
    epeita to pneumatikon.
    47 Ho prootos anthroopos ek gees choikos,
    ho deuteros anthroopos ex ouranou.
    48 Hoios ho choikos,
    toioutoi kai hoi choikoi,
    kai hoios ho epouranios,
    toioutoi kai hoi epouranioi;
    49 kai kathoos eforesamen teen eikona tou choikou,
    foresomen kai teen eikona tou epouraniou.
    50 Touto de feemi, adelfoi, hoti sarx kai haima basileian Theou kleeronomeesai

    ou dunatai, oude hee fthora teen aftharsian kleeronomei.
    51 Idou musteerion humin legoo: Pantes ou koimeetheesometha, pantes de

    allageesometha,
    52 en atomoo, en hripee ofthalmou, en tee eschatee salpiggi; salpisei gar, kai

    hoi nekroi egertheesontai afthartoi, kai heemeis allageesometha.
    53 Dei gar to ftharton touto endusasthai aftharsian kai to thneeton touto

    endusasthai athanasian.
    54 Hotan de to ftharton touto enduseetai aftharsian kai to thneeton touto

    enduseetai athanasian, tote geneesetai ho logos ho gegrammenos:
    "Katepothee ho thanatos eis nikos."
    55 Pou sou, thanate, to nikos?
    pou sou, thanate, to kentron?

    56 To de kentron tou thanatou hee hamartia, hee de dunamis tees hamartias ho
    nomos;
    57 too de Theoo charis too didonti heemin to nikos dia tou Kuriou heemoon

    Ieesou Christou.
    Greek New Testament


    35 Alla = 35 But
    erei = will-say
    tis, = someone,
    "Poos = "How
    egeirontai = are-raised-up
    hoi = the
    nekroi? = dead?
    Poioo = What-sort-of
    de = but
    soomati = body
    erchontai?" = do-they-come?"
    36 Afroon, = 36 Stupid,
    su = you (singular)
    ho = that-which
    speireis = you-sow
    ou = not
    zoo-opoieitai = is-brought-to-life
    ean = if
    mee = not (unless)
    apothanee; = it-dies-off;
    37 kai = 37 and
    ho = that-which
    speireis, = you-sow
    ou = not
    to = the
    sooma = body
    to = the-one
    geneesomenon = shall-be
    speireis = you-sow
    alla = but
    gumnon = naked/bare
    kokkon = kernel
    ei = if
    tuchoi = perchance
    sitou = of-wheat
    ee = or
    tinos = of-some
    toon = of-the
    loipoon, = remaining-ones,
    38 ho = 38 the
    de = but
    Theos = God
    didoosin =gives
    autoo = to-it
    sooma = a-body
    kathoos = like
    eetheleesen, = He-wishes,
    kai = and
    hekastoo = to-every-one
    toon = of-the
    spermatoon = seeds
    idion = its-own
    sooma. = body.
    39 Ou = 39 Not
    pasa = all
    sarx = flesh
    hee = the
    autee = same
    sarx, = flesh,
    alla = but
    allee = else/different
    men = indeed
    anthroopoon, = of-men,
    allee = else/different
    de = but
    sarx = flesh
    kteenoon, = of-animals,
    allee = else/different
    de = but
    sarx = flesh
    pteenoon, = of-birds,
    allee = else/different
    de = but
    ichthuoon. = of-fish.
    40 Kai = 40 And
    soomata = bodies
    epourania, = of-above-the-sky,
    kai = and
    soomata = bodies
    epigeia; = of-above-the-ground;
    alla = but
    hetera = other/different
    men = indeed
    hee = the
    toon = of-the
    epouranioon = above-the-sky
    doxa, = glory/fame/apparency,
    hetera = other/different
    de = but
    hee = the
    toon = of-the
    epigeioon = above-the-ground
    (doxa). = (glory/fame/apparency).
    41 Allee = 41 else/different
    doxa = glory/fame/apparency
    heeliou, = of-sun,
    kai = and
    allee = else/different
    doxa = glory/fame/apparency
    seleenees, = of-moon,
    kai = and
    allee = else/different
    doxa = glory/fame/apparency
    asteroon; = of-stars;
    asteer = a-star
    gar = for
    asteros = from-a-star
    diaferei = differs
    en = in
    doxee. = glory/fame/apparency.
    42 Houtoos = 42 In-this-way
    kai = and
    hee = the
    anastasis = resurrection
    toon = of-the
    nekroon. = dead.
    Speiretai = It-is-sown
    en = in
    fthora, = corruption,
    Egeiretai = It-is-wakened
    en = in
    aftharsia; = incorruption;
    43 speiretai = 43 it-is-sown
    en = in
    atimia, = dishonor/infamy/indignity/disgrace,
    egeiretai = it-is-wakened
    en = in
    doxee; = glory/fame/apparency;
    speiretai = it-is-sown
    en = in
    astheneia, = weakness,
    egeiretai = it-is-wakened
    en = in
    dunamei; = power;
    44 speiretai = 44 it-is-sown
    sooma = a-body
    psuchikon, = breathing,
    egeiretai = it-is-wakened
    sooma = a-body
    pneumatikon. = blasting/blowing.
    Ei = If
    estin = there-is
    sooma = a-body
    psuchikon, = breathing,
    estin = there-is
    kai = and
    (sooma) = (a-body)
    pneumatikon. = blasting/blowing.
    45 Houtoos = 45 In-this-way
    kai = and
    gegraptai: = it-is-written:
    “Egeneto = "Was-made
    ho = the
    prootos = first
    anthroopos = man
    Adam = Adam
    eis = into
    psucheen = a-breather
    zoosan,” = living,"
    ho = the
    eschatos = last
    (anthroopos) = (man)
    Adam = Adam
    eis = into
    pneuma = a-blaster/blower
    zoo-opoioun. = life-giving.
    46 All’ = 46 But
    ou = not
    prooton = first
    to = the
    pneumatikon = blasting/blowing
    alla = but
    to = the
    psuchikon, = breathing,
    epeita = after-that
    to = the
    pneumatikon. = blasting/blowing.
    47 Ho = 47 The
    prootos = first
    anthroopos = man
    ek = out
    gees = of-ground/dirt
    choikos, = dusty/dirty/terrene/soil-like,
    ho = the
    deuteros = second
    anthroopos = man
    ex = out
    ouranou. = of-sky.
    48 Hoios = 48 Like/As
    ho = the
    choikos, = dusty/dirty/terrene/soil-like,
    toioutoi = truly-this/of-this-sort
    kai = and/also
    hoi = the
    choikoi, = dusty/dirty/soil-like-ones,
    kai = and
    hoios = like/as
    ho = the
    epouranios, = of-the-above-the-sky,
    toioutoi = truly-this/of-this-sort
    kai = and/also
    hoi = the
    epouranioi; = of-the-above-the-sky-ones;
    49 kai = 49 and
    kathoos = just-as
    eforesamen = we-have-worn
    teen = the
    eikona = icon/image/likeness
    tou = of-the
    choikou, = dusty/dirty/soil-like,
    foresomen = we-shall-wear
    kai = and/also
    teen = the
    eikona = icon/image/likeness
    tou = of-the
    epouraniou. = of-the-above-the-sky.
    50 Touto = 50 This-thing/That-thing
    de = but
    feemi, = I-say,
    adelfoi, = brothers/siblings,
    hoti = that
    sarx = flesh
    kai = and
    haima = blood
    basileian = a-Kingdom
    Theou = of-God/God's
    kleeronomeesai = does-inherit
    ou = not
    dunatai, = is-able/can,
    oude = neither
    hee = the
    fthora = corruptible
    teen = the
    aftharsian = incorruptible
    kleeronomei. = inherit.
    51 Idou = 51 Look
    musteerion = a-mystery/a-secret
    humin = to-you
    legoo: = I-tell:
    Pantes = All
    ou = not
    koimeetheesometha, = we-shall-sleep,
    pantes = all
    de = but
    allageesometha, = we-shall-be-made-different,
    52 en = 52 in
    atomoo, = an-indivisible-moment
    en = in
    hripee = a-jerk
    ofthalmou, = of-an-eye,
    en = in
    tee = the
    eschatee = last
    salpiggi; = shofar/trumeting;
    salpisei = a-shofar/trumet-shall-sound
    gar, = for,
    kai = and
    hoi = the
    nekroi = dead-ones
    egertheesontai = shall-be-awakened
    afthartoi, = incorruptible-ones,
    kai = and
    heemeis = we
    allageesometha. = we-shall-be-made-different.
    53 Dei = 53 Must
    gar = for
    to = the
    ftharton = corruptible
    touto = this-one
    endusasthai = put-on/don/invest
    aftharsian = incorruption
    kai = and
    to = the
    thneeton = mortal
    touto = this-one
    endusasthai = put-on/don/invest
    athanasian. = immortality.
    54 Hotan = 54 When
    de = but
    to = the
    ftharton = corruptible
    touto = this-one
    enduseetai = shall-put-on/shall-don/shall-invest
    aftharsian = incorruption
    kai = and
    to = the
    thneeton = mortal
    touto = this-one
    enduseetai = shall-put-on/shall-don/shall-invest
    athanasian, = immortality,
    tote = then
    geneesetai = shall-be
    ho = the
    logos = saying/word
    ho = the
    gegrammenos: = written:
    "Katepothee = "Is-gulped-down
    ho = the
    thanatos = death
    eis = into
    nikos." = victory/conquest/triumph."
    55 Pou = 55 Where
    sou, = of-you/your,
    thanate, = Death,
    to = the
    nikos? = victory/conquest/triumph?
    pou = where
    sou, = of-you/your,
    thanate, = Death,
    to = the
    kentron? = stinger?
    56 To = 56 The
    de = but
    kentron = stinger
    tou = of-the
    thanatou = Death
    hee = the
    hamartia, = sin,
    hee = the
    de = but
    dunamis = power/venom
    tees = of-the
    hamartias = sin
    ho = the
    nomos; = Torah;
    57 too = 57 to-the
    de = but
    Theoo = God
    charis = gratitude/thanks
    too = to-the
    didonti = Giver
    heemin = to-us
    to = the
    nikos = victory/conquest/triumph
    dia = through
    tou = the
    Kuriou = Lord/Master
    heemoon = of-us/our
    Ieesou = Yeshua`/Jesus
    Christou. = Anointed/Messiah/Christ.

    35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? But, with what sort of body do they come?"
    36 Stupid, that which you sow is not brought to life unless it dies off;
    37 and that which you sow [is] not the body that shall be; the one you sow but a bare kernel if perchance of wheat or of some of the remaining ones,
    38 but God gives a body to it like He wishes, and to every one of the seeds its own body.
    39 Not all flesh [is] the same flesh, but indeed unique that of men, but a different flesh of animals, but a different flesh of birds, but a different of fish.
    40 And bodies of-above-the-sky, and bodies of-above-the-ground; but other/different indeed the of-the above-the-sky glory/fame/apparency, other/different but the of-the above-the-ground (glory/fame/apparency).
    41 else/different glory/fame/apparency of-sun, and else/different glory/fame/apparency of-moon, and else/different glory/fame/apparency of-stars; a-star for from-a-star differs in glory/fame/apparency.
    42 In-this-way and the resurrection of-the dead. It-is-sown in corruption, It-is-awakened in incorruption;
    43 it-is-sown in dishonor/infamy/indignity/disgrace, it-is-awakened in glory/fame/apparency; it-is-sown in weakness, it-is-awakened in power;
    44 it-is-sown a-body breathing, it-is-awakened a-body blasting/blowing. If there-is a-body breathing, there-is and/also (a-body) blasting/blowing.
    45 In-this-way and/also it-is-written: "Was-made the first man Adam into a-breather living," the last (man) Adam into a-blaster/blower life-giving.
    46 But not first the blasting/blowing but the breathing, after-that the blasting/blowing.
    47 The first man out of-ground/dirt dusty/dirty/terrene/soil-like, the second man out of-sky.
    48 Like/As the dusty/dirty/terrene/soil-like, truly-this/of-this-sort and/also the dusty/dirty/soil-like-ones, and like/as the of-the-above-the-sky, truly-this/of-this-sort and/also the of-the-above-the-sky-ones;
    49 and just-as we-have-worn the icon/image/likeness of-the dusty/dirty/soil-like, we-shall-wear and/also the icon/image/likeness of-the of-the-above-the-sky.
    50 This-thing/That-thing but I-say, brothers/siblings, that flesh and/also blood a-Kingdom of-God/God's does-inherit not is-able/can, neither the corruptible the incorruptible inherit.
    51 Look a-mystery/a-secret to-you I-tell: All not we-shall-sleep, all but we-shall-be-made-different,
    52 in an-indivisible-moment in a-jerk of-an-eye, in the last shofar/trumeting; a-shofar/trumet-shall-sound for, and the dead-ones shall-be-awakened incorruptible-ones, and we we-shall-be-made-different.
    53 Must for the corruptible this-one put-on/don/invest incorruption and the mortal this-one put-on/don/invest immortality.
    54 When but the corruptible this-one shall-put-on/shall-don/shall-invest incorruption and the mortal this-one shall-put-on/shall-don/shall-invest immortality, then shall-be the saying/word the written:
    "Is-gulped-down the death into victory/conquest/triumph."
    55 Where of-you/your, Death, the victory/conquest/triumph? where of-you/your, Death, the stinger?
    56 The but stinger of-the Death the sin, the but power/venom of-the sin the Torah;
    57 to-the but God gratitude/thanks to-the Giver to-us the victory/conquest/triumph through the Lord/Master of-us/our Yeshua`/Jesus Anointed/Messiah/Christ.

    See, the beauty of this chapter is that it is an eloquent list of comparisons, and the words "psuchikon" and "pneumatikon" are contrasted, along with the contrasts of "soomata epourania" and "soomata epigeia," as well as "tou choikou" and "tou epouraniou." One of the key contrasts fits with the contrast of the First Adam and the Last Adam, the first man and the second man, respectively. The first man was said to be made a "psucheen zoosan" while the second man was said to be made a "pneuma zoo-opoioun" (the hyphen used strictly to separate between the omega (oo) and the omicron (o) to show which comes first); that is, the first man was said to be made a "living breather" while the second man was said to be made a 'life-giving blaster/blower." It's not the difference between physical and non-physical; it's the difference between a physical body that is a breath away from death and a physical body that is super-strong to the point of giving life! It contrasts the bodies from above the sky with the bodies from above the earth. It contrasts the "dusty/dirty" bodies with the bodies from above the sky!

    A final contrast can be seen between the "flesh and blood" here (which cannot inherit incorruption) with the "flesh and bones" of the Messiah in Luke 24:39. His resurrected body is NOT immaterial or non-physical! His resurrected body IS material and stronger than any typical human body! It is able to be handled, to eat, to drink, to talk, and to walk with His students for several days after His resurrection and before His ascension! Sure there are some differences, just as there are some differences between a grain of wheat and a stalk of wheat, but they are both PHYSICAL!
     
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