"the prince that shall come..." (Dan. 9:26)

[Ronald David Bruno]

It is THE PEOPLE of the prince who is to come who destroys the sanctuary it is not the prince who destroys the sanctuary. The prince was "to come" in 70ad that is he was a future prince and he still is.

He will not destroy the sanctuary he will sit in the sanctuary and declare that he is himself God. This comes after his program of "opposing everything god so called and setting himself against all worship of God"

He will have a mission to stamp all religion. It is the time of great persecution we are warned will come in the end times. The great tribulation.

The people were the Romans. Or course in the Bible there are prophecies that have a duel nature, literal and symbol or can be applied to different periods of time. Information describing Antiochus Epiphanes (which means the illustrious one, god manifest) can be applied to the coming Antichrist as well.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I'm not Post-trib, I'm pre-wrath but when one understands what the GT really is, they are the same but your typical post-tribbers haven't realized it yet.

At least we agree on something. I am a Mid-Trib/Pre-Wrath rapture adherent myself. Additionally, I don't find this requirement of a New Temple to be built with sacrifices and such - It would be ungodly, since Christ sacrifice made the Temple obsolete. Why would He allow that especially when He will save many of them (Romans 11) through a ministry of Two Witnesses? It would be an abomination more than some Antichrist going in there and claiming to be god - not to say he won't. But the Bible describes this as a Holy Place that he enters. A New Temple would not be holy in God's eyes. So I have a problem with that.

 

[Bobby Jo]

I do not believe in fables, myths or lies. ...

You CERTAINLY do. You cited the FALSE "seven and sixty-two", for which Newton observed that no Society in history (or ANYWHERE IN SCRIPTURE) has EVER used math in that fashion* -- where a pair of shoes cost "seven and sixty-two dollars, plus tax"; Newton said it does "VIOLENCE TO SCRIPTURE"; and that if GOD had intended to convey "sixty-nine" HE would have said "sixty-nine".

Now the RSV CORRECTLY depicts the "seven" with a FIRST anointed-one; and the "sixty-two" with a SECOND anointed one, -- as asserted by Scripture and confirmed by HISTORY.

And to take it to the next step, -- Young, Keil, & Kliefoth all agree that the "seven" are not a LITERAL "seven", -- and is analogous to going for a ride in a "cool car" where you run to grab a hat, coat, gloves, and scarf. -- The word is in the "UNUSUAL" Inconcise MASCULINE Gender Text found ONLY in the 9th Chapter of Daniel; and not even the 10th. ALL other usages of "seven" in Scripture are in the Concise FEMININE Gender Text. (Rev. Walvoord's "Daniel, The Key To Prophetic Revelation")

* Note: Four score and ten; a mile and a quarter; a dollar and a half; a cup and a third; a dozen and a half; -- are all legitimate increments. But NO Society has EVER used "odd increments" like "seven and sixty-two".


​

As I said, there are some DOZEN errors in the commentator presentations. But if you like the LIES you've swallowed, then PLEASE ENJOY.
Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

... The four empires were such: Babylon, Medo-Persian, Greek and Roman ...

If what you assert is TRUE, then explain why GOD's Intelligent Design verse 2:45 cites 4,3,5,2,1, = FIVE. Was my initial request for that explanation an oversight by you? --

... where Scripture CLEARLY presents a FIVE World Empire Scenario (which History substantiates):
2:45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold ... = 4,3,5,2,1, = FIVE
... or conversely, if you have an Alternate explanation for GOD'S Intelligent Design of HIS sequence.​

And challenging what others assert is not being "RUDE". "RUDE" is making a FALSE CLAIM and expecting others to fall for it.
Bobby Jo

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

You CERTAINLY do. You cited the FALSE "seven and sixty-two", for which Newton observed that no Society in history (or ANYWHERE IN SCRIPTURE) has EVER used math in that fashion* -- where a pair of shoes cost "seven and sixty-two dollars, plus tax"; Newton said it does "VIOLENCE TO SCRIPTURE"; and that if GOD had intended to convey "sixty-nine" HE would have said "sixty-nine".

Now the RSV CORRECTLY depicts the "seven" with a FIRST anointed-one; and the "sixty-two" with a SECOND anointed one, -- as asserted by Scripture and confirmed by HISTORY.

And to take it to the next step, -- Young, Keil, & Kliefoth all agree that the "seven" are not a LITERAL "seven", -- and is analogous to going for a ride in a "cool car" where you run to grab a hat, coat, gloves, and scarf. -- The word is in the "UNUSUAL" Inconcise MASCULINE Gender Text found ONLY in the 9th Chapter of Daniel; and not even the 10th. ALL other usages of "seven" in Scripture are in the Concise FEMININE Gender Text. (Rev. Walvoord's "Daniel, The Key To Prophetic Revelation")

* Note: Four score and ten; a mile and a quarter; a dollar and a half; a cup and a third; a dozen and a half; -- are all legitimate increments. But NO Society has EVER used "odd increments" like "seven and sixty-two".


​

As I said, there are some DOZEN errors in the commentator presentations. But if you like the LIES you've swallowed, then PLEASE ENJOY.
Bobby Jo

I take it you didn't pass arithmetic in school? Scholars agree that the 70 weeks = 70 weeks of years = 490 years. "There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;" ... "then after the 62 weeks, Messiah will be cut off". Logic alone would understand that Jesus will be cut off after the 69 weeks and if it is after, it must be in the 70th week.
But you go ahead and take a ride with Young, Keil, and Kliefoth in their cool car theology. lol I think your problem is you lean on others understanding, over-think scripture with all this analysis. It reminds me of the ignorant doctrines spewed out by the Jesus Seminar. Pray for discernment - You must first receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, He will help you!

 

[Bobby Jo]

... Scholars agree that the 70 weeks ... your problem is you lean on others understanding ...
... I take it you didn't pass arithmetic ...

You're a hypocrite, and don't have much sense.

We're done, and good luck -- because I suspect you're going to need it.
ON IGNORE!
Bobby Jo

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

You're a hypocrite, and don't have much sense.

We're done, and good luck -- because I suspect you're going to need it.
ON IGNORE!
Bobby Jo

You remind of the Left Wingers out there that just attack people, call them names and are mean spirited. Are you on the LEFT? I just get all this hatred from your posts. Try to have a little gentleness and kindness for a change - the fruit of the Spirit. Of course you need the Spirit for that transformation to take place.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

"the prince that shall come…" (Dan. 9:26)

Dan. 9: 26-27 - “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: (end of Messiah topic and beginning of new topic, the anti-christ) and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; (different from the temple) and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he (speaking of the same above prince)shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

The interpretational differences mainly rests upon the identity of the prince in vs. 26. Some think it’s referring to Christ and 70ad however, if it was, the rest of the prophecy from the latter part of vs. 26-27 makes no sense because Christians didn’t destroy Jerusalem nor did He make a covenant for only one week. His covenant is an eternal one! Others, like myself, believe it is speaking of the a/c and specifically after his possession by Satan/Dragon, when he is killed and resurrected per Rev. 13:3, imitating Christ so he can be associated w/ Him, and be taken for a messiah.

In the vast majority of cases when the translators believed the scriptures are speaking of a member of the Godhead, they capitalized the pronoun and that is why there is a difference between the capitalization of Prince in vs. 25 and Is. 9:6 but not in vs. 26. The NT refers to the devil as a prince in John12:31, 14:30, 16:11 and in Eph. 2:2, Acts 3:15, 5:31. Michael is referred to as a prince in Dan. 12:1 but again it’s not capitalized. This is also true regarding the “he” of 2 Thess. 2:7 and why it’s not speaking of the Holy Spirit.

Let’s take a look at the word “sanctuary” in vs. 26. This does not mean the temple. Daniel uses a different word when he is referencing that. However, for sacrifices and oblations to resume the a/c doesn’t need a temple. All he needs is a designated area that is declared holy and consecrated by the priests. A small tabernacle would also do. The a/c will certainly never have access to the millennial temple as described in Ez. 40 and on. While it was originally intended to be the second temple, Israel’s failure to repent on a national scale exempted them from that one and they had to settle for a much smaller one and the land division had to be deferred as well. BTW, that is the one and only reason sacrifices were mentioned.

So, despite all the clamoring to the contrary, 70AD had no prophetical significance at all except for that one little excerpt in Lk. 21:20-24! The last week is still to come and it seems like it could be pretty soon. Persecution and martyrdom are coming to America in the not too distant future so I pray that all of you will prepare yourselves, spiritually, physically and emotionally and for His sake, let your children know what’s coming! Don’t try to “protect” them from the truth, you will be doing them a great disservice if you do! And for those who want to claim that Jesus wouldn’t let that happen to His bride…if you believe that is one of the identities of the church, then you must realize that all of the millions of believers martyred since Christ’s resurrection were also part of His “bride”. we are not special and the bible is chock full of warning about trials and tribulations that will befall the Body of Christ so you certainly can’t claim He didn’t warn you in advance!

Good Luck!

If teh regular cast of preterists, partial pretersits, and allegorists respond to you, they are going to throw all sorts of irrelevant verses to muddy the simple fsact that the prince that shall come is the Antichrist and not Jesus Christ!

 

[Billy Evmur]

The people were the Romans. Or course in the Bible there are prophecies that have a duel nature, literal and symbol or can be applied to different periods of time. Information describing Antiochus Epiphanes (which means the illustrious one, god manifest) can be applied to the coming Antichrist as well.

A whiles ago I met a young American who was part of a group who had come to Europe in search of the Antichrist. They were of the opinion that he must be Roman or of Roman descent and since Europe was overun by the Romans it seemed likely to them that Ac could arise from any of the European nations, his eyes opened wide on me when I pointed out there were more Latinos in the USA than any other nation on the planet ... but they do have a valid basis for that belief.

It doesn't seem likely that a world ruler could come from tiny Italy and yet they did once rule the world. There are scriptures that support the view that the last world empire will be a revived empire,

Also consider the Catholic church, I don't believe the Pope is Ac or that the Catholic church is at present antichristian but suppose the Vatican were invaded? suppose the Pope was deposed and the Catholic clergy usurped and replaced? then Rome could overnight become a worldwide power with an organisation in every city and town and village in the world. Perhaps the Catholic church is just keeping the seat warm for Ac.

But perhaps "the people of the prince who is to come" simply refers to any King or Emperor or Dictator with worldwide ambitions, there have been a few of those and they are indeed forerunners of the coming one, then "the people" would refer to any people who have followed and supported such would be world rulers, the black shirts, the nazis, the bolsheviks etc.

There are certainly a number of folks around who wish for world government.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The people were the Romans. Or course in the Bible there are prophecies that have a duel nature, literal and symbol or can be applied to different periods of time. Information describing Antiochus Epiphanes (which means the illustrious one, god manifest) can be applied to the coming Antichrist as well.

This is a misunderstsanding of prophecy.

Prophecy has only one fulfilment. A literal event (like the slaughter of the children, Rachel weeping for her children) can become something that is prophetic but that is a literal event that has prophetic meaning.

A prophecy can only be for one period of time. A prophecy can cover multiple time periods (like Daniel 9:24-27) but that also is spelled out in the prophecy.

Yes info for one event can be included in another, but it does not mean a dual fulfilment. Jesus made it clear that Antiochus was not the abomination of desolation, though he definitely was a prototype.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

This is a misunderstsanding of prophecy.

Prophecy has only one fulfilment. A literal event (like the slaughter of the children, Rachel weeping for her children) can become something that is prophetic but that is a literal event that has prophetic meaning.

A prophecy can only be for one period of time. A prophecy can cover multiple time periods (like Daniel 9:24-27) but that also is spelled out in the prophecy.

Yes info for one event can be included in another, but it does not mean a dual fulfilment. Jesus made it clear that Antiochus was not the abomination of desolation, though he definitely was a prototype.

Disagree, the Gap theory is a misunderstanding! In Daniel 9:26 It eludes to not just the desolation of Jerusalem and Israel at that time, but more desolations throughout history.
"... even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined."
We are experiencing lawlessness now, a period of time so labeled as an upside down world where evil means good and vice versa. Isaiah 5:20 prophecy concerned not only Judah and Israel but future times as we are in.
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!".
Obviously certain prophecies were specific. The Jews confused the hundreds if Messianic prophecies, thinking they were all going to be fulfilled when He came the first time.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Disagree, the Gap theory is a misunderstanding! In Daniel 9:26 It eludes to not just the desolation of Jerusalem and Israel at that time, but more desolations throughout history.
"... even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined."
We are experiencing lawlessness now, a period of time so labeled as an upside down world where evil means good and vice versa. Isaiah 5:20 prophecy concerned not only Judah and Israel but future times as we are in.
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!".
Obviously certain prophecies were specific. The Jews confused the hundreds if Messianic prophecies, thinking they were all going to be fulfilled when He came the first time.

I agree that Israel missed the prophecies of Messiah first being a suffering Savior (though the pharisees knew Jesus was Messiah)

But as for the gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel? History has shown it to be true!

Daniel 9:24-27
King James Version

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

We know the 7's are yearts.
1. Verse 24 not all these have come true yet for Israel.
2. Verse 25 history showed this to be consecutive weeks or 483 years.
3. Verse 26 after the 483 years concluded- Jesus was cut off.
4. In 70 Ad the people of the prince that is to come (Rome) came and destroyed the city and sanctuary. The end of the war has not yet occured.
5. The he is the antichrist or the prince of the people that shall come. This covenant has not been signed yet- so this presupposes the necessity for a rebuilt temple as is current in Israel.
6. Once this covenant is signed- the AC becomes the abomination that makes desolate and also the man of lawlessness who sits in the temple of God.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness

I see Jesus fulfilling this prophecy.
Sins of the world were nailed to the cross - for all those who believe but also beyond that - for all time. He brought everlasting righteousness - did He not?

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

This was an allusion to 70AD - destruction specifically of Jerusalem and the Temple.

he shall confirm the covenant

Jesus brought the New Covenant.

he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

Jesus put an end to their sacrificial system. He was the once and for all sacrifice.

he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

God is Sovereign, He allowed the Romans to destroy Jerusalem and scatter the Jews for 1878 years, then gathered them and He brought them back. The consummation is the gathering of the Jews back to their home so when the time comes (according to Rom. 11), He will pour out His Spirit upon a remnant Jewish population.
That's how I see it.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I see Jesus fulfilling this prophecy.
Sins of the world were nailed to the cross - for all those who believe but also beyond that - for all time. He brought everlasting righteousness - did He not?

But what you see and what is written are two different things.

This was an allusion to 70AD - destruction specifically of Jerusalem and the Temple.

The bible doesn't allude- people do.

Jesus brought the New Covenant.

So you believe the New covenant was only for 7 years then.

Jesus put an end to their sacrificial system. He was the once and for all sacrifice.

They kept sacrificing for 37 years after Jesus ascended. That is when the sacrificial system ended here.

God is Sovereign, He allowed the Romans to destroy Jerusalem and scatter the Jews for 1878 years, then gathered them and He brought them back. The consummation is the gathering of the Jews back to their home so when the time comes (according to Rom. 11), He will pour out His Spirit upon a remnant Jewish population.
That's how I see it.

Well you are taking a partial preterist, allegorical way of seeing teh bible. Both are untenable because both rely on retranslating th eSCriptures to fit the concept instead of retranslating teh concept to fir the Scriptures!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

So you believe the New covenant was only for 7 years then.

He confirmed a covenant during that week, it didn't end when He got cut off after 3 1/2 years.

They kept sacrificing for 37 years after Jesus ascended. That is when the sacrificial system ended here.

Doesn't matter, they were useless sacrifices. Jesus put an end to that Temple when He died, the veil tore - you should know that.

Well you are taking a partial preterist, allegorical way of seeing the bible.

I am far from a preterist. Mid-trib/Pre-wrath adherent.
I think we are done here - not much more I can say.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

He confirmed a covenant during that week, it didn't end when He got cut off after 3 1/2 years.


Doesn't matter, they were useless sacrifices. Jesus put an end to that Temple when He died, the veil tore - you should know that.


I am far from a preterist. Mid-trib/Pre-wrath adherent.
I think we are done here - not much more I can say.

YOu are retranslating the Scriptures'!

Teh Prince of the people that shall come is the one who confirms a covenant with Israel for 7 years. Jesus did not!

Jesus was killed after 69 weeks not after 69 weeks and 3 1/2 weeks of the 70 weeks.

Yes it does matter. It is Gods Word that is being challenged. It doesn't matter what your or my opinion of the sacrificial system was or will be- God said that the Prince who makes teh 7year covenant will cause th esacrifice and burnt offerings to end! Not their effectiveness or their importance or anything like that- but that the sacrifices themseves would end! That did not happen until long after teh 69th week was done! But their will be a rebiult temple and the sacrificial system will be reinstituted by Israel again. It is this system that the Antichrist will cause to cease 3 1/2 years into teh 70th week of Daniel.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

YOu are retranslating the Scriptures'!

Teh Prince of the people that shall come is the one who confirms a covenant with Israel for 7 years. Jesus did not!

Jesus was killed after 69 weeks not after 69 weeks and 3 1/2 weeks of the 70 weeks.

Yes it does matter. It is Gods Word that is being challenged. It doesn't matter what your or my opinion of the sacrificial system was or will be- God said that the Prince who makes teh 7year covenant will cause th esacrifice and burnt offerings to end! Not their effectiveness or their importance or anything like that- but that the sacrifices themseves would end! That did not happen until long after teh 69th week was done! But their will be a rebiult temple and the sacrificial system will be reinstituted by Israel again. It is this system that the Antichrist will cause to cease 3 1/2 years into teh 70th week of Daniel.

Enough! You'll find out soon.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Enough! You'll find out soon.

We both will won't we!

Watch for an invasion of Israel by Russia, Iran, Ethiopia, Somalia and portoons of the old Ottoman Empire. I believe it will happen in teh short span of the rest of my life, but if not it will happen.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Watch for an invasion of Israel by Russia, Iran, Ethiopia, Somalia and portoons of the old Ottoman Empire. I believe it will happen in teh short span of the rest of my life, but if not it will happen.

That's next, Middle East War ... since this new administration wont habe Israel's back - very soon ... within 70 x 7 days.

 

[Billy Evmur]

We both will won't we!

Watch for an invasion of Israel by Russia, Iran, Ethiopia, Somalia and portoons of the old Ottoman Empire. I believe it will happen in teh short span of the rest of my life, but if not it will happen.

.... I read attempted invasion for as I understand the scripture God will fight for Israel ... Israel will become a super power before they even turn to the Lord.

They have not yet turned to the Lord but the Lord has turned to them. The result of this battle will be the expansion of Israel from Sinai to the Euphrates .... The Jews will go home