"the prince that shall come..." (Dan. 9:26)

[Trekson]

"the prince that shall come…" (Dan. 9:26)

Dan. 9: 26-27 - “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: (end of Messiah topic and beginning of new topic, the anti-christ) and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; (different from the temple) and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he (speaking of the same above prince)shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

The interpretational differences mainly rests upon the identity of the prince in vs. 26. Some think it’s referring to Christ and 70ad however, if it was, the rest of the prophecy from the latter part of vs. 26-27 makes no sense because Christians didn’t destroy Jerusalem nor did He make a covenant for only one week. His covenant is an eternal one! Others, like myself, believe it is speaking of the a/c and specifically after his possession by Satan/Dragon, when he is killed and resurrected per Rev. 13:3, imitating Christ so he can be associated w/ Him, and be taken for a messiah.

In the vast majority of cases when the translators believed the scriptures are speaking of a member of the Godhead, they capitalized the pronoun and that is why there is a difference between the capitalization of Prince in vs. 25 and Is. 9:6 but not in vs. 26. The NT refers to the devil as a prince in John12:31, 14:30, 16:11 and in Eph. 2:2, Acts 3:15, 5:31. Michael is referred to as a prince in Dan. 12:1 but again it’s not capitalized. This is also true regarding the “he” of 2 Thess. 2:7 and why it’s not speaking of the Holy Spirit.

Let’s take a look at the word “sanctuary” in vs. 26. This does not mean the temple. Daniel uses a different word when he is referencing that. However, for sacrifices and oblations to resume the a/c doesn’t need a temple. All he needs is a designated area that is declared holy and consecrated by the priests. A small tabernacle would also do. The a/c will certainly never have access to the millennial temple as described in Ez. 40 and on. While it was originally intended to be the second temple, Israel’s failure to repent on a national scale exempted them from that one and they had to settle for a much smaller one and the land division had to be deferred as well. BTW, that is the one and only reason sacrifices were mentioned.

So, despite all the clamoring to the contrary, 70AD had no prophetical significance at all except for that one little excerpt in Lk. 21:20-24! The last week is still to come and it seems like it could be pretty soon. Persecution and martyrdom are coming to America in the not too distant future so I pray that all of you will prepare yourselves, spiritually, physically and emotionally and for His sake, let your children know what’s coming! Don’t try to “protect” them from the truth, you will be doing them a great disservice if you do! And for those who want to claim that Jesus wouldn’t let that happen to His bride…if you believe that is one of the identities of the church, then you must realize that all of the millions of believers martyred since Christ’s resurrection were also part of His “bride”. we are not special and the bible is chock full of warning about trials and tribulations that will befall the Body of Christ so you certainly can’t claim He didn’t warn you in advance!

 

[Jay Ross]

From memory, the Prince, who is to come, is the Little Horn, who is given an army to trample the Sanctuary and God's Earthly Hosts which will continue for around 2,000 or so years until the fulness, with respect to time, has come to its decreed end from whence it started around the year 250 BC give or take around 10 years.

This prophecy can be found in Daniel 8.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

"the prince that shall come…" (Dan. 9:26)

“the prince that shall come” Daniel 9:25-26 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. [26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

John 14:29-31 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe. [30] Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. [31] But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.


Daniel 8:23 Lexicon: "In the latter period of their rule, When the transgressors have run their course, A king will arise, Insolent and skilled in intrigue.



Daniel 8:24 Lexicon: "His power will be mighty, but not by his own power, And he will destroy to an extraordinary degree And prosper and perform his will; He will destroy mighty men and the holy people.



Daniel 8:25 Lexicon: "And through his shrewdness He will cause deceit to succeed by his influence; And he will magnify himself in his heart, And he will destroy many while they are at ease. He will even oppose the Prince of princes, But he will be broken without human agency.


But he will be broken without human agency.
but he shall be broken without hand.
Question is ...who is he broken with(out)human agency or without hand?


Luke 22:52-54 Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves? [53] When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness. [54] Then took they him, and led him, and brought him into the high priest's house. And Peter followed afar off.


John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.


Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
From Daniel “when the transgressors have run their course” also Paul’s confession in the following verse Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires (lust)of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (Again Daniel) “when the transgressors have run their course” 1 Peter 4:3-4 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: [4] Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you :


Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you.)

concerning the vision Daniel saw:

Daniel 8:26 Lexicon: "The vision of the evenings and mornings Which has been told is true; But keep the vision secret, For it pertains to many days in the future."


Daniel 8:27 Lexicon: Then I, Daniel, was exhausted and sick for days. Then I got up again and carried on the king's business; but I was astounded at the vision, and there was none to explain it.


you said “This prophecy can be found in Daniel 8.” And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus IS the spirit of prophecy.


Daniel was exhausted by the vision...no man could explain John 14:26-27 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father (Prince of Peace)will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. [27] Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

But he will be broken without human agency.
but he shall be broken without hand.
Question is ...who is he broken with(out)human agency or without hand?

realize everyone sees it differently. So this is just an opinion but he who is broken without human agency or without hand ...would it be the prince that cometh not (not caring for the sheep)but to steal kill and destroy ...the power of darkness.. that old sin nature broken “put away” “circumcised” “cut away” without human agency or without hand in He was manifested for the destruction of sin and its power (strong hold) cast, shroud over all people. Not for himself...coming not to steal, kill, and destroy (but that they might be saved and know the resurrection power of God) for the removal of evil and sin and the power of death.


1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Luke 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
“I come that they may have Life” “to save them” ...to save them “that he might destroy the works of the devil” over them “that they may have life and have it more abundant” for He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

"the prince that shall come…" (Dan. 9:26)

Dan. 9: 26-27 - “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: (end of Messiah topic and beginning of new topic, the anti-christ) and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; (different from the temple) and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he (speaking of the same above prince)shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

The interpretational differences mainly rests upon the identity of the prince in vs. 26. Some think it’s referring to Christ and 70ad however, if it was, the rest of the prophecy from the latter part of vs. 26-27 makes no sense because Christians didn’t destroy Jerusalem nor did He make a covenant for only one week. His covenant is an eternal one! Others, like myself, believe it is speaking of the a/c and specifically after his possession by Satan/Dragon, when he is killed and resurrected per Rev. 13:3, imitating Christ so he can be associated w/ Him, and be taken for a messiah.

In the vast majority of cases when the translators believed the scriptures are speaking of a member of the Godhead, they capitalized the pronoun and that is why there is a difference between the capitalization of Prince in vs. 25 and Is. 9:6 but not in vs. 26. The NT refers to the devil as a prince in John12:31, 14:30, 16:11 and in Eph. 2:2, Acts 3:15, 5:31. Michael is referred to as a prince in Dan. 12:1 but again it’s not capitalized. This is also true regarding the “he” of 2 Thess. 2:7 and why it’s not speaking of the Holy Spirit.

Let’s take a look at the word “sanctuary” in vs. 26. This does not mean the temple. Daniel uses a different word when he is referencing that. However, for sacrifices and oblations to resume the a/c doesn’t need a temple. All he needs is a designated area that is declared holy and consecrated by the priests. A small tabernacle would also do. The a/c will certainly never have access to the millennial temple as described in Ez. 40 and on. While it was originally intended to be the second temple, Israel’s failure to repent on a national scale exempted them from that one and they had to settle for a much smaller one and the land division had to be deferred as well. BTW, that is the one and only reason sacrifices were mentioned.

So, despite all the clamoring to the contrary, 70AD had no prophetical significance at all except for that one little excerpt in Lk. 21:20-24! The last week is still to come and it seems like it could be pretty soon. Persecution and martyrdom are coming to America in the not too distant future so I pray that all of you will prepare yourselves, spiritually, physically and emotionally and for His sake, let your children know what’s coming! Don’t try to “protect” them from the truth, you will be doing them a great disservice if you do! And for those who want to claim that Jesus wouldn’t let that happen to His bride…if you believe that is one of the identities of the church, then you must realize that all of the millions of believers martyred since Christ’s resurrection were also part of His “bride”. we are not special and the bible is chock full of warning about trials and tribulations that will befall the Body of Christ so you certainly can’t claim He didn’t warn you in advance!

It is clear if one reads the entire chapter, Daniel’s 70 weeks is a prophecy about Jerusalem, all of Israel, the Messiah’s First Coming and later, the destruction of Jerusalem.

I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

He fasted, prayed and asked the Lord about His people and Jerusalem (vs. 4) He confesses Israel’s sin, rebelliousness, turning away from God’s ordinances and commandments, ignoring the prophets (vs. 5) “…but to us open shame, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, the inhabitants of Jerusalem,” (vs. 7) “… all Israel has violated Your Law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice; so the curse has gushed forth on us,” (vs.11) “So the Lord has kept the disaster in store and brought it on us;” (vs. 14) “You brought us out of Egypt …” (vs. 15) “… let now Your anger and Your wrath turn away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain;”(vs.16) “…Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision previously, came to me in my extreme weariness about the time of the evening offering." (vs. 21) "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place."(vs. 24) “…until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;”(vs. 25) > That means, Jesus showed up after the 69 weeks, in the beginning of the 70th week. “ … after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.” (vs. 26) Jesus was cut off “after the 7 + 62 = 69 weeks, in the middle of the 70th week. Then, an additional morsel is given as the passage eludes to a later time, “the people of the Prince to Come” (Romans/Titus) will destroy Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Although, with Jesus’ death and resurrection, the Temple became obsolete and in essence spiritually destroyed. This time period, (Jesus First Coming) was the most significant event and so the prophecy directly and specifically refers to the Coming of the Messiah, then eludes to a later time, the destruction of Jerusalem, apart from the 70 week prophecy.

Then vs. 27 goes back and summarizes: Jesus confirmed a covenant, the New Covenant; was crucified in the middle of the 70th week; and since He was the once and for all sacrifice, He put a stop to sacrifice and offering; then eluding to a later time, abominations continue until Jerusalem is made desolate.
“And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come the one who makes desolate, until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, gushes forth on the one who makes desolate.”(vs. 27)

This is history.

 

[Trekson]

realize everyone sees it differently. So this is just an opinion but he who is broken without human agency or without hand ...would it be the prince that cometh not (not caring for the sheep)but to steal kill and destroy ...the power of darkness.. that old sin nature broken “put away” “circumcised” “cut away” without human agency or without hand in He was manifested for the destruction of sin and its power (strong hold) cast, shroud over all people. Not for himself...coming not to steal, kill, and destroy (but that they might be saved and know the resurrection power of God) for the removal of evil and sin and the power of death.


1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Luke 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
“I come that they may have Life” “to save them” ...to save them “that he might destroy the works of the devil” over them “that they may have life and have it more abundant” for He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

I think if you read Dan. 8:23-25 again, you will see that it cannot be speaking of Christ.

 

[Trekson]

It is clear if one reads the entire chapter, Daniel’s 70 weeks is a prophecy about Jerusalem, all of Israel, the Messiah’s First Coming and later, the destruction of Jerusalem.

I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

He fasted, prayed and asked the Lord about His people and Jerusalem (vs. 4) He confesses Israel’s sin, rebelliousness, turning away from God’s ordinances and commandments, ignoring the prophets (vs. 5) “…but to us open shame, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, the inhabitants of Jerusalem,” (vs. 7) “… all Israel has violated Your Law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice; so the curse has gushed forth on us,” (vs.11) “So the Lord has kept the disaster in store and brought it on us;” (vs. 14) “You brought us out of Egypt …” (vs. 15) “… let now Your anger and Your wrath turn away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain;”(vs.16) “…Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision previously, came to me in my extreme weariness about the time of the evening offering." (vs. 21) "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place."(vs. 24) “…until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;”(vs. 25) > That means, Jesus showed up after the 69 weeks, in the beginning of the 70th week. “ … after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.” (vs. 26) Jesus was cut off “after the 7 + 62 = 69 weeks, in the middle of the 70th week. Then, an additional morsel is given as the passage eludes to a later time, “the people of the Prince to Come” (Romans/Titus) will destroy Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Although, with Jesus’ death and resurrection, the Temple became obsolete and in essence spiritually destroyed. This time period, (Jesus First Coming) was the most significant event and so the prophecy directly and specifically refers to the Coming of the Messiah, then eludes to a later time, the destruction of Jerusalem, apart from the 70 week prophecy.

Then vs. 27 goes back and summarizes: Jesus confirmed a covenant, the New Covenant; was crucified in the middle of the 70th week; and since He was the once and for all sacrifice, He put a stop to sacrifice and offering; then eluding to a later time, abominations continue until Jerusalem is made desolate.
“And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come the one who makes desolate, until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, gushes forth on the one who makes desolate.”(vs. 27)

This is history.

The problem w/ this is that Jesus didn't come prophetically until he fulfilled Zech. 9:9 and that was about 6 days, I think before the crucifixion. So he fulfilled both of your objections in the same week. There is nothing else in scripture that suggests the timing should be counted from the beginning of his ministry. That is only a made up theology for those who want to believe contrary to what the bible teaches so their questionable eschatologies seem to have more support.

 

[Trekson]

“the prince that shall come” Daniel 9:25-26 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. [26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

John 14:29-31 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe. [30] Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. [31] But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.


Daniel 8:23 Lexicon: "In the latter period of their rule, When the transgressors have run their course, A king will arise, Insolent and skilled in intrigue.



Daniel 8:24 Lexicon: "His power will be mighty, but not by his own power, And he will destroy to an extraordinary degree And prosper and perform his will; He will destroy mighty men and the holy people.



Daniel 8:25 Lexicon: "And through his shrewdness He will cause deceit to succeed by his influence; And he will magnify himself in his heart, And he will destroy many while they are at ease. He will even oppose the Prince of princes, But he will be broken without human agency.


But he will be broken without human agency.
but he shall be broken without hand.
Question is ...who is he broken with(out)human agency or without hand?


Luke 22:52-54 Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves? [53] When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness. [54] Then took they him, and led him, and brought him into the high priest's house. And Peter followed afar off.


John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.


Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
From Daniel “when the transgressors have run their course” also Paul’s confession in the following verse Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires (lust)of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (Again Daniel) “when the transgressors have run their course” 1 Peter 4:3-4 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: [4] Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you :


Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you.)

concerning the vision Daniel saw:

Daniel 8:26 Lexicon: "The vision of the evenings and mornings Which has been told is true; But keep the vision secret, For it pertains to many days in the future."


Daniel 8:27 Lexicon: Then I, Daniel, was exhausted and sick for days. Then I got up again and carried on the king's business; but I was astounded at the vision, and there was none to explain it.


you said “This prophecy can be found in Daniel 8.” And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus IS the spirit of prophecy.


Daniel was exhausted by the vision...no man could explain John 14:26-27 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father (Prince of Peace)will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. [27] Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Nothing in this contradicts what I said. It seems to verify it, thanks.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

There is nothing else in scripture that suggests the timing should be counted from the beginning of his ministry.

Really, the beginning of His ministry wasn't a significant day in history? Gabriel's timeline was intended to focus on the most important event that the Jews hoped for - the coming if the Messiah. There are said to be 300 prophecies of His first coming and this was one of them, a date given to Daniel. While John the Baptist was preparing the way for the Lord's ministry, "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" John 1:29

The interesting thing is that much of the Pre-trib view rests on this Gap theory, which to me sounds like made up theology. Think about it, this Gap theory comes along and alters the prophecy and delays the 70th week for 2000 years. This is a specific date that God gave to Daniel. Did God not know? Did man mess up His plan and therefore He had to change it? God would not have given a prophecy that was not accurate or had to be adjusted later.
But you have embrassed this view, many have, that's fine. Just don't get to upset when the Great Tribulation begins and you are still here. Oops, I believe it has and we are in the "beginning of sorrows". This pestilence is surrounded by lies, deception, fear and control - exactly how Satan operates. The Rider on the White Horse was given a crown (coronavirus) and went out to conquer - it appears we are in it and you are still here. This lawlessness is a sign as well. Isaiah 5:20 warns us of a time when good means evil, darkness means light ... an upside down world. We are seeing our freedoms disappear, conditioned to accept this coming One World Government. We do not know who the Antichrist is, but he is on the move.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... This is history.

Ummmmmmm, you spoke too soon, for what you cited is neither Scriptural nor historical. In fact, your commentators can't even get through verse 2 per your premise.

Have you considered LITERAL SCRIPTURE, or are you content with fables?!?

With Best Regards,
Bobby Jo

 

[Trekson]

Really, the beginning of His ministry wasn't a significant day in history? Gabriel's timeline was intended to focus on the most important event that the Jews hoped for - the coming if the Messiah. There are said to be 300 prophecies of His first coming and this was one of them, a date given to Daniel. While John the Baptist was preparing the way for the Lord's ministry, "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" John 1:29

The interesting thing is that much of the Pre-trib view rests on this Gap theory, which to me sounds like made up theology. Think about it, this Gap theory comes along and alters the prophecy and delays the 70th week for 2000 years. This is a specific date that God gave to Daniel. Did God not know? Did man mess up His plan and therefore He had to change it? God would not have given a prophecy that was not accurate or had to be adjusted later.
But you have embrassed this view, many have, that's fine. Just don't get to upset when the Great Tribulation begins and you are still here. Oops, I believe it has and we are in the "beginning of sorrows". This pestilence is surrounded by lies, deception, fear and control - exactly how Satan operates. The Rider on the White Horse was given a crown (coronavirus) and went out to conquer - it appears we are in it and you are still here. This lawlessness is a sign as well. Isaiah 5:20 warns us of a time when good means evil, darkness means light ... an upside down world. We are seeing our freedoms disappear, conditioned to accept this coming One World Government. We do not know who the Antichrist is, but he is on the move.

I'm not pre-trib so I expect that the whole church will be here for the great trib. I believe prophecy. If prophecy says the"king comes on the foal of an ass," I'm not going to say, No, No, God, he came when he started his ministry. The purpose of the gap is the salvation of billions of gentiles over that period of time. I don't understand why y'all object to that?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Ummmmmmm, you spoke too soon, for what you cited is neither Scriptural nor historical. In fact, your commentators can't even get through verse 2 per your premise.

Have you considered LITERAL SCRIPTURE, or are you content with fables?!?

With Best Regards,
Bobby Jo

I consider myself a literalist. I practically quoted the entire chapter, taking each line literally
Where did I use symbolism?
Eh, dogs have a difficult time understanding ...

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I'm not pre-trib so I expect that the whole church will be here for the great trib. I believe prophecy. If prophecy says the"king comes on the foal of an ass," I'm not going to say, No, No, God, he came when he started his ministry. The purpose of the gap is the salvation of billions of gentiles over that period of time. I don't understand why y'all object to that?

Yes, I've heard the story, the calculation that amounts 483 years to the day Jesus road in on a donkey. I have also read that those calculations are off. It is also likely the calendar itself is off and He was born in 3 B.C. So you hold to the Gap theory and are Post Trib? Thats fine. I learned from great scholars who believe it as well, I just don't see it that way.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I think if you read Dan. 8:23-25 again, you will see that it cannot be speaking of Christ.

All just opinions (mine, not implying yours) but maybe the reason for the constant debate is: double edged or two-edged. never meant to imply Christ as evil for evil doesn’t overcome evil ...but instead “overcome evil with good”. Which God IS, yeah. Never meant to imply Christ is or was ‘he who’ comes to destroy and ‘he who comes’ and is overcome (sin and death); but instead Christ (Life) is Him who overcame and overcomes all things even he who comes not but to kill, steal and destroy...I come that they may have Life (the Victory). “Who do you say that I am”? 1 Peter 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye ; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

double edged or two edged “I come as a thief” ... 1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

...

Matthew 10:34-35 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. [35] For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Luke 2:34-35 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; [35] (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (Clears up, imo: who destroys and Who saves)Luke 9:56-57 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village. [57] And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.

John 14:30-31 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. [31] But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

“but that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do.”
how that they may know...even those who don’t believe mutter of such a great love although in the same breath maybe a love too good to be true counted then as fables. Too good to be true. That they may know: “I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do.”

Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Mark 15:28-29 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors. [29] And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days,

yet what did He say? John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Point is...I don’t disagree with you nor agree. Mostly ...never seen a Love which says the prince of this world comes that they may know I love the Father and the commandment He gave Me to do...That commandment “I do”. Which is maybe undebatable.
That they may know: “I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do.”
John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

 

[Bobby Jo]

I consider myself a literalist. I practically quoted the entire chapter, taking each line literally.
Where did I use symbolism?

Who said "symbolism"? I never said "symbolism". I merely suggested that you didn't follow the concise diction. And to be specific, there's a huge difference between knowing generically versus knowing precisely. -- So taking the 9:2 passage: "... I, Daniel, observed in the books ...", have you researched the word "observed"? Do you know that there's two different types of that word (Ref. 1 Kings 3): shama & biyn. And shama is analogous to reading the weather in the newspaper; but biyn is analogous to understanding weather patterns and not needing a newspaper. (I.e., Red sky morning, sailor warning, red sky night sailor delight.)

So in 1 Kings 3, GOD asked Solomon what he would have GOD give him. And Solomon in his humility said "shama" so that he could understand the needs of the people. And GOD said HE would give him what he asked for, -- such "BIYN" (Solomon Wisdom) such that no man before him and no man after him shall have such "BIYN" (SOLOMON WISDOM).

So Daniel used "biyn" (Solomon Wisdom) to discern in the books, -- and it wasn't a simple rendering of Jeremiah 25, but was MUCH MORE COMPLEX. Daniel understood Jeremiah's "seventy years" by reading the Book of Psalms. And in the Chapters of Psalms you should be able to find the "going forth of the word" and understand it's significance given the premise proposed by J.R. Church in his book "Hidden Prophecies In The Psalms", along with History. Etc.

Eh, dogs have a difficult time understanding ...

NO, -- you're not a dog, you just haven't done the research.

With Best Regards,
Bobby Jo

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Who said "symbolism"? I never said "symbolism". I merely suggested that you didn't follow the concise diction. And to be specific, there's a huge difference between knowing generically versus knowing precisely. -- So taking the 9:2 passage: "... I, Daniel, observed in the books ...", have you researched the word "observed"? Do you know that there's two different types of that word (Ref. 1 Kings 3): shama & biyn. And shama is analogous to reading the weather in the newspaper; but biyn is analogous to understanding weather patterns and not needing a newspaper. (I.e., Red sky morning, sailor warning, red sky night sailor delight.)

So in 1 Kings 3, GOD asked Solomon what he would have GOD give him. And Solomon in his humility said "shama" so that he could understand the needs of the people. And GOD said HE would give him what he asked for, -- such "BIYN" (Solomon Wisdom) such that no man before him and no man after him shall have such "BIYN" (SOLOMON WISDOM).

So Daniel used "biyn" (Solomon Wisdom) to discern in the books, -- and it wasn't a simple rendering of Jeremiah 25, but was MUCH MORE COMPLEX. Daniel understood Jeremiah's "seventy years" by reading the Book of Psalms. And in the Chapters of Psalms you should be able to find the "going forth of the word" and understand it's significance given the premise proposed by J.R. Church in his book "Hidden Prophecies In The Psalms", along with History. Etc.


NO, -- you're not a dog, you just haven't done the research.

With Best Regards,
Bobby Jo

If I must research the word observed to understand a whole chapter and that chapter is dependent that one word for discernment, than I might as well throw the book into the ocean. Discernment comes by the Holy Spirit. Exegesis is important though and I do that as well, but not with every word. I have confidence that with the many translations that I use, the scholars have done the work already for me. I use about seven translations, just to make sure. That word you are referring to in most translations, "understood" is used, then "perceived", "observed", "studied", "pondered", "learned", ... [from the books/scriptures] were also used. I get the meaning which ever word is used in that sentence! I understood "seventy years" only because a Pastor taught me that it meant 7 X 70 years.

 

[Bobby Jo]

If I must research the word observed to understand a whole chapter and that chapter is dependent that one word for discernment, than I might as well throw the book into the ocean. ...

Not the BOOK, -- but the commentaries. And you've ALREADY BEEN WARNED not to believe those ANCIENT FABLES, MYTHS, and LIES, -- but you chose to ignore Scripture, and now you're paying consequences. -- So until you OBEY the Instructions, you might as well throw the BOOK into the ocean:

Dan. 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
Dan. 12:9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.​

And just to say, the commentators make about a DOZEN mistakes (LIES) in their Dan. 9 "interpretations", -- and any RATIONAL person should see the CONFUSION, and conclude the IMPOSSIBILITY both for the 9th Chapter:

“This prophesy of the seventy sevens is one of the most difficult in the entire OT, and although the interpretations are almost legion, we shall confine ourselves to the discussion of three which may be regarded as of particular importance.”[1]

Note: According to the dictionary[2] a legion consists of 3,000 to 6,000 foot soldiers, and 300 to 700 cavalry.

[1] Guthrie, D., & J.A. Motyer, New Bible Commentary: Revised, Eerdmans Publishing Co., Grand Rapids, MI, 1970, p. 699
[2] Webster’s New Twentieth Century Dictionary - 2nd ed, p. 1035​

... as well as EVERY PROPHETIC PASSAGE* including the Most Simple of Concepts, where the LIARS insist:

1. Gold, Babylon
2. Silver, Medo/Persia
3. Bronze, Greece
4.a. Iron
4.b. Clay
​

... where Scripture CLEARLY presents a FIVE World Empire Scenario (which History substantiates):

2:45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold ... = 4,3,5,2,1, = FIVE​

... or conversely, if you have an Alternate explanation for GOD'S Intelligent Design of HIS sequence.​

* Please note that the commentators can't even grasp Daniel's HISTORY.​

With Best Regards,
Bobby Jo

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Not the BOOK, -- but the commentaries. And you've ALREADY BEEN WARNED not to believe those ANCIENT FABLES, MYTHS, and LIES, -- but you chose to ignore Scripture, and now you're paying consequences. -- So until you OBEY the Instructions, you might as well throw the BOOK into the ocean:

I do not believe in fables, myths or lies.
These days, that is consigned to Democrats with their alternate reality and fake news. Very delusional world they live in!
Ignoring scripture ... disobeying ... suffering consequences?
You are off base and rude. My commentary was my own, I did not get it from anyone - not to say that it is correct, just mine.
Daniel was told too seal the book until the time of the end, which is near. It wasn't for him to know about, but it concerns our period of time. So we are allowed to open it up and take a peek! I believe that we are in the "beginning of sorrows" written about in Matthew 24.
As for Daniel 9 _ again _ I believe Gabriel gave a prophecy about Jerusalem, all of Israel and the Messiah's first coming as it reads in scripture and there are many scholars who would agree. So where is this myth?
The four empires were such: Babylon, Medo-Persian, Greek and Roman, which was described as being iron mixed with clay, partly strong and partly weak. It was strong in Rome but then in the 5th century was moved to Constantinople.
Rome caused many abominations after Christ, prior to the desolation in Jerusalem in 70 AD and continued.
The Beast in Rev. 13 is different than any of those empires, which were the Beast manifest during different times; yet it has characteristics of all of them. It is not IMO a revised Roman Empire. The Beast could be Islam - not sure about that though. I'll just stop there, you are not going to accept it anyways and maybe we should just agree to disagree.

 

[Billy Evmur]

It is THE PEOPLE of the prince who is to come who destroys the sanctuary it is not the prince who destroys the sanctuary. The prince was "to come" in 70ad that is he was a future prince and he still is.

He will not destroy the sanctuary he will sit in the sanctuary and declare that he is himself God. This comes after his program of "opposing everything god so called and setting himself against all worship of God"

He will have a mission to stamp all religion. It is the time of great persecution we are warned will come in the end times. The great tribulation.

 

[Trekson]

Yes, I've heard the story, the calculation that amounts 483 years to the day Jesus road in on a donkey. I have also read that those calculations are off. It is also likely the calendar itself is off and He was born in 3 B.C. So you hold to the Gap theory and are Post Trib? Thats fine. I learned from great scholars who believe it as well, I just don't see it that way.

I'm not Post-trib, I'm pre-wrath but when one understands what the GT really is, they are the same but your typical post-tribbers haven't realized it yet.