The Problem with Salvation

[marks]

Christians get a bad rep as being judgemental and the truth is we are, or at least that's how we are seen.

I think it's because of the saved/not saved issue. By definition, being "saved" makes a Christian better than a non-Christian. How can this not be so? It's tantamount to one child turning to another and saying, "God loves me more."

This is the ultimate in egoism. It must be a sin. How does one resolve this issue?

That could be one perspective, and perhaps some act that way. Maybe you've heard the line, "I'm just a beggar telling another beggar where to find food."

Unbelievers are convicted of their sin in the presence of a spiritual Christian, and that's the way it is. Don't hide your light because some others can't stand it's shine! Yet others may come to the light to be saved.

Perhaps we need to remove "saved" from our vocabulary? Let death resolve that particular point. While we live, focus on forgiveness, charity and love.

Why deny the work of God?

The Bible is strong, There is One Name given under heaven by which men must be saved.

We can live a life of weak faith filled with uncertainty, or of strong faith in confidence, and I know with certainty which of these the Bible teaches.

Much love!

 

[marks]

...but for example, John's First Epistle has much about assurance of salvation.

We really can know it; and can let others know.

And we Should know, and we Should let others know!

Much love!

 

[farouk]

And we Should know, and we Should let others know!

Much love!

Romans 8's might assertion of the believer's assurance is memorable.........it can speak volumes to ppl........

 

[farouk]

I am saying we should not make it the focus of our faith.

1 Corinthians 15.19:

"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."

We truly can know, and others need to know also.........

 

[marks]

I'm not saying we should remove it from scripture. Instead, I am saying we should not make it the focus of our faith. Truthfully God will do what he will do with us when we die. The choice to save us or not is his and his alone. By focusing on salvation we turn God into a game of carrots and sticks, the carrots being salvation and the sticks being damnation. How can we focus on love, compassion and forgiveness when the threat of eternal fire perpetually looms in the back of our minds? Until we are liberated from the threat of damnation we will never be truly free to choose God.

You describe a works based salvation where you don't know if you're going to qualify for the payday or not.

I believe the Bible describes a faith based salvation so that it is available to all, being completely apart from works.

I agree, if you are looking to your works to hoping they add up enough at the end, that's no way to live. But if you are looing to Jesus, hoping for His rescue, you will not be disappointed, and to the degree you put your trust in that, your heart will rejoice.

"Until we are liberated from the threat of damnation we will never be truly free to choose God."

As a Christian, fear of condemnation is flesh, and flesh will not serve God. Freedom from condemnation is Spirit in the Christian, and releases us to live spiritual lives.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Your apology is off. If that is what we say to the unsaved, you are correct, but who says that? Most say, "God is real and wonderful!" and share the good news of what we have found.

I would say it is the other way around. That those who hear but do not know God hold the sin of jealousy. For this same reason Cain slew Abel. This is the way of fallen mankind.

And Hagar and Sarah. The children of bondage persecute the free children. As you say, the way of fallen man.

Much love!

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Unbelievers are convicted of their sin in the presence of a spiritual Christian, and that's the way it is.

This may be true but surely you see how judgmental it sounds. How can we bring unbelievers to Christ from this point of view? They've already been damned to Hell but good news, we can rescue them. How is that not carrots and sticks?

That's really what I'm trying to figure out.

 

[Taken]

Christians get a bad rep as being judgemental and the truth is we are, or at least that's how we are seen.

I think it's because of the saved/not saved issue. By definition, being "saved" makes a Christian better than a non-Christian. How can this not be so? It's tantamount to one child turning to another and saying, "God loves me more."

This is the ultimate in egoism. It must be a sin. How does one resolve this issue?

How does one resolve this issue?

Not allow an other to make that your issue.
It’s not about na, na, na, na, na, God loves me more!!!

It is about God Loves everyone.
I chose to Love God back.

It’s about you choose what you want....and you are content.
I choose what I want...and I am content.

You want no kids...
I want kids...
You want a huge home and small lot...
I want acreage and small home...
You want a steak and onions...
I want a peanut butter and onions sandwich...

It’s about choices and being content with ones own choices.
If you enjoyed your steak and onions, nothing wrong with sharing your enjoyment.
I get joy from having a relationship with my Creator and Maker, and find no issue with sharing my enjoyment.

Anyway, MPOV.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Alfredthefifth]

There are to many posts to try to QUOTE.

So I will start with a story I once heard.

A man started showing up in a church.
He wore what would have been a nice suit but it was dusty and dirty. His shirt may have been clean once but for dust and sweet it was hard to tell, his shoes under the dust and mud could have been anything.
He showed up early but no one greeted him. He sat alone through church because no one would sit near him. He was the last one to walk away after service though no one talked with him. This went on for several months before the church was crowded and someone was forced to sit near him.
That man found that this stranger had a deep rich voice, that he read the scriptures of the day, he read those scriptures in preparation for the service, he read the scriptures as the pastor read them during the service. He took notes both on the scriptures and on the pastors sermon.
After the service the man that had been forced to sit by this stranger stayed and talked to him . The first thing that man did was to address that the problem was that the man was dusty and dirty.
The stranger replied, When I walked out of my house to come to church, I was freashly bathed, my suit was freashly cleaned and my shoes were shined. The effort to walk to church leaves me looking like this.

So tell me how many here have been in a church that would treat this stranger the same way that the church in the story did?

First I learned that the church of my youth was this church. Then when moved by the holy spirit to leave, I walked away from the Lutheran Church of my youth. For every church that welcomed this stranger to them with open arms two or three just bearly tolerated my presence. That attitude was we don't know you, what are doing here, at the very least the posture and stance of the members conveyed this message.

The church of my preference welcomed me unconditionally, the church I go to when I haven't given myself the hour plus it takes me to get to my church, welcomed me in unconditionally. The church in my community is open and welcoming but having a pulpit vacancy is kind of holding it's breath waiting for a new pastor.

So I found three welcoming churches. The eleven that I shuck the dust off my sandals when I left. Those churches fit what the first post here describes. Because of churches like those eleven Christians can be reasonably described as the original post says.

I try to live me life to offset those eighty percent of Christian churches.

Is it fair to lump all Christians into the same boat? No its not. But those sanctimonious churches are a face that the unchurched have for all Christians! We have to realize this when we in any form ministry we do. First we have to prove the accepted face is wrong!
Is anyones life that good?

Al

 

[Enoch111]

Until we are liberated from the threat of damnation we will never be truly free to choose God.

But that too is a part of the Gospel and a reason to obey the Gospel. The threat of damnation hangs over the human race, so there is no need to minimize it or ignore it.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

You describe a works based salvation where you don't know if you're going to qualify for the payday or not.

Possibly. The only requirement to be saved is faith in Jesus' willingness and ability to save us. Since he has been given all that is God's he has the ability, and the Bible clearly shows he has the willingness, after all he did let himself be crucified for us. Is our faith in Jesus a work? That's debatable, and I'm not interested in that conversation since I know where it leads, but that is something I think about.

As a Christian, fear of condemnation is flesh, and flesh will not serve God. Freedom from condemnation is Spirit in the Christian, and releases us to live spiritual lives.

I don't follow. How is fear of condemnation flesh? It is the soul that will be burned up in the lake of fire for those whom God does not save. Perhaps you mean that it is the soul of believers that is liberated from condemnation? If so, then yes -- I agree, the sole problem (pun intended ) being that faith -- belief -- is not something one can choose. I can't chose to believe something. I can't choose to not believe something. I either do or I don't. Compelling evidence or personal experience can possibly sway my belief one way or another, but that's no guarantee.

The sad fact is that many countless souls will be lost through no fault of their own. I find it difficult to reconcile that with God's wish that all be saved (1 Timothy 2:1-4). Something doesn't add up. Either God wills that all be saved and all are, or God doesn't will that all be saved and thus some aren't. The only way to make sense of this is to return to faith as a kind of work, but it's a unique form of work in that we can't choose to perform it. It simply is or isn't, hence my OP. How can we minister to unbelievers if the premise of belief is that one can't choose to believe?

 

[BloodBought 1953]

I am what I am by the grace of God. Humility comes with the understanding that we do not do anything to merit or earn the grace of God, thus we become stewards of that grace to others who have not received this free gift. When we preach the Gospel, those who hear it are either convicted by the Holy Ghost or reject the Gospel by their own will and strength. If you are preaching the Gospel from a podium of Pride you will never succeed, for there is neither conviction nor the True Gospel there.

A couple of things spring to Mind here......

In Acts we have the story of “ Lydia, the Seller Of Purple” .... and when it came to the matter of either “ accepting” or “ rejecting” the Gospel That was being preached by Paul and others, the Bible makes it clear that God “ Opened Her Heart” to not only “ Hear” the Gospel, but to actually “ Receive” it and have it Indwelling her....

It’s was all God's initiative to choose her as one whose Heart had been “ Opened” ..... the vast majority of the listeners probably rejected the Good News and just walked away, considering it “ Foolishness”....... Was her experience an “ odd- ball” one, or does God perform in this manner with everybody that Trusts in the Gospel for their Salvation....one of my favorite Bible Teachers, Les Feldick was discussing Lydia and declared “ May God grant me an audience of “Lydias!” ......Lol.....I think that he was on to something.....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

I am what I am by the grace of God. Humility comes with the understanding that we do not do anything to merit or earn the grace of God, thus we become stewards of that grace to others who have not received this free gift. When we preach the Gospel, those who hear it are either convicted by the Holy Ghost or reject the Gospel by their own will and strength. If you are preaching the Gospel from a podium of Pride you will never succeed, for there is neither conviction nor the True Gospel there.

This reminds me of the quote attributed to St.Francis of Assisi —- “ Preach the Gospel wherever you go—- use words if necessary”

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Since "saved" is God's vocabulary, no one has any business to remove it or change it. The unsaved should simply be shown through the Gospel that they too can be saved. But many will refuse to obey the Gospel.

How True! “ The Gospel is Foolishness to those that Perish”

 

[LearningToLetGo]

“ The Gospel is Foolishness to those that Perish”

True.

By definition, being "saved" makes a Christian better than a non-Christian. How can this not be so? It's tantamount to one child turning to another and saying, "God loves me more."

We're back to square one. How can we minister to those destined to perish? Are we only able to speak to those destined to be saved?

"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

God wills that all men be saved. Does this mean everyone can be saved? How does that change the notion of the gospel being foolish to those that perish?

 

[BloodBought 1953]

True.



We're back to square one. How can we minister to those destined to perish? Are we only able to speak to those destined to be saved?

"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

God wills that all men be saved. Does this mean everyone can be saved? How does that change the notion of the gospel being foolish to those that perish?

Everyone “ Can” be Saved.....That is possible because Jesus has paid the price for ALL Sins....God has seen to it that every man must make a Choice ——You just have to make The Right Choice if you want to be Saved.....That “Right Choice” is Coming to the Light ( That “ Light, Of course, is Jesus and He told the Pharisees that they would not be Saved because they “ Refused to COME TO HIM” ) ..... .....Those that refuse to “ COME TO HIM” ( the “Light”) do so because they love their Darkness better than they love the Light....they stay in the Dark , lest their evil deeds would be exposed.....
(John 3:20)


“ How often I desired to protect you as a hen gathers its chicks beneath it’s wings, but you would not COME TO ME”.....( Luke13:34)

“ And you are not willing to COME TO ME so that Eternal Life could be yours” John 5



All we can do is preach the Gospel to everybody —- All types of “ Soil” included —— the “ Good Soil” Will Receive it gladly and COME TO JESUS .... Only God can make you Good Soil....If anyone is not Saved and wants to be Saved pray to God that He makes you “Good Soil”...... it worked for me.....

 

[Dropship]

..By definition, being "saved" makes a Christian better than a non-Christian. How can this not be so? It's tantamount to one child turning to another and saying, "God loves me more."

Of course God loves Christians more than Jesus-rejecters, but they could save themselves by becoming Christians, their choice..

 

[Enoch111]

Everyone “ Can” be Saved.....That is possible because Jesus has paid the price for ALL Sins

Which means that there is no "problem" with salvation. And using such a title on a Christian forum is bound to discourage those who could be or should be saved.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Which means that there is no "problem" with salvation. And using such a title on a Christian forum is bound to discourage those who could be or should be saved.

The only “Problem” in regard to Christianity is hardened human Hearts—— The Unrepentant Heart That has yet to be made “Contrite”......that is the only type of Heart that God can work with.....it’s what God is looking for and without that type of Heart, one has not even entered the “ Starting Gate” Of Christianity....
Even the Phillipian Jailer That cried out “ What must I do to be Saved” had within Him the Conviction Of Sin—— He knew that he was a Sinner That could not save himself, and that is the Saving Realization that the Contrite , or Repentant Heart brings....

 

[Episkopos]

Christians get a bad rep as being judgemental and the truth is we are, or at least that's how we are seen.

I think it's because of the saved/not saved issue. By definition, being "saved" makes a Christian better than a non-Christian. How can this not be so? It's tantamount to one child turning to another and saying, "God loves me more."

This is the ultimate in egoism. It must be a sin. How does one resolve this issue?

I think we have chosen to be the "saved of the world" rather being a "light to the world."

Immature believers think of themselves first...selfish. What is unfortunate is that this very selfishness is encouraged by most Christian "leaders" because it makes people feel special. And this has proved successful to get more people in the pews. It is populist and a perversion of the "good news" because it is the wrong part of people being catered to.

So then mostly we are being encouraged in the wrong thing.

The phenomenon I am speaking of is that the modern churches are for the most part "outer man" churches. They teach salvation without the cross. The cross is seen as something for Jesus but not for us. What is taught is the benefit without the cost. So then God is portrayed as loving us IN our sin....not out of our sin.

Many even here will defend the right of the sinful flesh to be able to claim salvation for it. There is no differentiating the inner man from the outer man. God hates the outer man even as He extends His grace to the inner man. But we don't want to lose our lives...we want to be able to just add Jesus into the mix.

If we persist in such deviation then we run the risk of being cut off from the Lord on judgment day. Just like the rich spoiled ones who say, Lord, Lord,...or like the Laodiceans who claim great things in their blindness.