The Problem with Salvation

[LearningToLetGo]

Of course God loves Christians more than Jesus-rejecters, but they could save themselves by becoming Christians, their choice..

I appreciate your humor but it does mask sad truth. How many ministers of the faith secretly judge those to whom they preach?

Jesus himself ministered to thieves, prostitutes and tax collectors. He focused his earthly ministry not on the rich and powerful but on the lost and downtrodden. His message wasn't one of fear, but of love. Yet today I hear the opposite. So much talk about salvation as a reward when we die and so little talk about living a Godly life today.

 

[Charlie24]

I appreciate your humor but it does mask sad truth. How many ministers of the faith secretly judge those to whom they preach?

Jesus himself ministered to thieves, prostitutes and tax collectors. He focused his earthly ministry not on the rich and powerful but on the lost and downtrodden. His message wasn't one of fear, but of love. Yet today I hear the opposite. So much talk about salvation as a reward when we die and so little talk about living a Godly life today.

I think many of the true born-again folks are living in defeat. They have tried to live up to the standard and find they can't.

So they think something is wrong with them. They try and fail, finally giving up, just trying to hold on to salvation.

So now comes the silence of what you were saying, they have tried and failed miserably and can't claim victory.

But Paul told us we can have victory if we heed the instructions he has given us. I know from my many mistakes that it is easier said than done.

 

[marks]

I don't follow. How is fear of condemnation flesh? It is the soul that will be burned up in the lake of fire for those whom God does not save. Perhaps you mean that it is the soul of believers that is liberated from condemnation? If so, then yes -- I agree, the sole problem (pun intended ) being that faith -- belief -- is not something one can choose. I can't chose to believe something. I can't choose to not believe something. I either do or I don't. Compelling evidence or personal experience can possibly sway my belief one way or another, but that's no guarantee.

I believe that we do in fact choose whether or not to trust in Jesus Christ.

John 3:18-21 KJV
18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20) For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21) But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Romans 1:18-21 KJV
18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

People choose to ignore God, knowing He exists because of what He made, but choosing to ignore Him because they know they are wrong.

Granted, our culture makes it easy for people to ignore God, but that's still what is happening. I don't believe there is truly such a thing as an atheist, except in cases of mental illness. Not trying to be offensive, only to say, those who claim atheism, I think that's not the real story. And how many self-proclaimed atheists betray themselves by their anger against the God they don't believe is real?

I don't believe Molech is a real God, and though I may have outrage against those who burn their children as offerings to Molech, I'm not angry with Molech, it's just a statue. What do I get angry with a statue? But the atheists are enraged at God.

If I am forgiven by God, then I am not under His condemnation. So if I am feeling condemned, that feeling, that thought, is not coming from my spirit that lives in Christ, because it's not true, not real. And therefore, it is from flesh.

Truth in me if from the Spirit, and lies are from the flesh. Rejoicing in my freedom and forgiveness is Spirit, bearing the weight of my sin and guilt is flesh. Because Jesus did that for me.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I believe that we do in fact choose whether or not to trust in Jesus Christ.

Many times a day we make that decision OR give in to worries.
A big question though is whether we can make that decision before our blindness is healed.

 

[farouk]

It has to be one of the most frustrating things I have ever experienced. I am at the point where I don't care what they think. No matter what we do it is all considered judgmental hate. The world is so blind I cannot believe it.

Christianity is kind of like a reformed drug addict. You cannot convince someone to quite drugging or drinking, it is something they have to do on their own. They have to want it. Same with Christianity. For some(like me) they have to live a life of sin until they are just absolutely sick of it, if they don't die first.

@Mantis In the end, rather than being led by others, by God's grace we can seek to be transformed day by day through prayer and the Scriptures.

 

[marks]

Many times a day we make that decision OR give in to worries.
A big question though is whether we can make that decision before our blindness is healed.

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Much love!

 

[Charlie24]

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Much love!

I certainly believe that is the key to our sanctification. I think there are many who are wondering how do we live and walk in the Spirit. In other words, what do we do that enables us to live and walk in the Spirit?

Any thoughts on that? Of course I have my own thoughts but would like to see what others think is the way.

 

[marks]

Many times a day we make that decision OR give in to worries.
A big question though is whether we can make that decision before our blindness is healed.

In Christ we are free, only, we are still learning to live as free men.

We are to work out what He works in, and we are not able to get ahead of that. He has to work it into us. My thinking is that He's likely working into us more than we are working out, so what we really need to do is keep up with Him.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I certainly believe that is the key to our sanctification. I think there are many who are wondering how do we live and walk in the Spirit. In other words, what do we do that enables us to live and walk in the Spirit?

Any thoughts on that? Of course I have my own thoughts but would like to see what others think is the way.

I think walking in the Spirit is the natural and default state of the Christian who is fully trusting Christ. I think that we are unpracticed in seeing in our minds which activity is from flesh, and which is from Spirit, and we allow the fleshiness to continue not realizing what is happening.

We recognize much of what the flesh is about, but then we post a post to put someone in their place, or we want to show how smart we are, how "I'm the one with the answer", or we think to ourselves, "This guy just won't admit he's wrong!", or whatever it is,

Anything that is not aligned with the fruit of the Spirit is flesh. Anything that is not part of trusting Jesus and loving others is flesh.

Not all flesh appetites are wrong. We hunger for food, and we need food, and God gives us food to nourish us and for us to enjoy. We need to have control over our appetites, and fasting is practice for that, for instance. We identify that this appetite is OK, so we'll have dinner, but that appetite is not OK, so I don't have whiskey with it.

We can compare our thoughts and feelings and appetites and desires and all to the fruit of the Spirit. "Taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ." Anything that doesn't match is not Spirit, is flesh, and should be denied.

So let's say I write a post and I'm feeling my impatience, and get a little pointed in my reply. You know, let's get real, I was becoming harsh with someone some months ago, post followed post, and I became more and more pointed, harsh, and I was challenged over that, and I replied that I was trying to elicit a more direct response, which in this case meant, to lead this person to not make somewhat negative comments, but to get it out into the open. It seemed so to me at the time.

However, I realized shortly after that challenge that in fact I was wrong, Love does not provoke, and that's what I had been doing. So add 1 Corinthians 13, Love is . . ., for comparison. Love provokes not, so that was not love, so that was not Spirit, so that was flesh, so deny it. So I stopped.

I think we have to be trained by God to recognize what is and isn't Spirit. Then we need to choose to deny flesh and follow Spirit. We trust that Jesus will make it possible for us to do just that. We trust that the is the life Jesus is giving to us, freedom from the power of our flesh, and freedom to live according to His Spirit.

Understanding that we are fully reconciled to God, nothing held back, His beloved children for ever, recipients of the fullness of His grace, this, at least for me, is what inspires my trust in Jesus that these things are actually the way He provides that I can live. We are being trained into it, and the more we can choose spirit over flesh the more we are participating in our renewel, and the more we will mature in the Spirit.

Doing all the things we know to help this, fellowship with believers, prayer and Bible reading/study, constant communion with God, these all build our faith, and our walk is by faith - what we believe is real, and not by sight, what we see in our lives.

God calls that which is not as though it were, and God does not lie, He brings it to pass.

Much love!

 

[Charlie24]

I think walking in the Spirit is the natural and default state of the Christian who is fully trusting Christ. I think that we are unpracticed in seeing in our minds which activity is from flesh, and which is from Spirit, and we allow the fleshiness to continue not realizing what is happening.

We recognize much of what the flesh is about, but then we post a post to put someone in their place, or we want to show how smart we are, how "I'm the one with the answer", or we think to ourselves, "This guy just won't admit he's wrong!", or whatever it is,

Anything that is not aligned with the fruit of the Spirit is flesh. Anything that is not part of trusting Jesus and loving others is flesh.

Not all flesh appetites are wrong. We hunger for food, and we need food, and God gives us food to nourish us and for us to enjoy. We need to have control over our appetites, and fasting is practice for that, for instance. We identify that this appetite is OK, so we'll have dinner, but that appetite is not OK, so I don't have whiskey with it.

We can compare our thoughts and feelings and appetites and desires and all to the fruit of the Spirit. "Taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ." Anything that doesn't match is not Spirit, is flesh, and should be denied.

So let's say I write a post and I'm feeling my impatience, and get a little pointed in my reply. You know, let's get real, I was becoming harsh with someone some months ago, post followed post, and I became more and more pointed, harsh, and I was challenged over that, and I replied that I was trying to elicit a more direct response, which in this case meant, to lead this person to not make somewhat negative comments, but to get it out into the open. It seemed so to me at the time.

However, I realized shortly after that challenge that in fact I was wrong, Love does not provoke, and that's what I had been doing. So add 1 Corinthians 13, Love is . . ., for comparison. Love provokes not, so that was not love, so that was not Spirit, so that was flesh, so deny it. So I stopped.

I think we have to be trained by God to recognize what is and isn't Spirit. Then we need to choose to deny flesh and follow Spirit. We trust that Jesus will make it possible for us to do just that. We trust that the is the life Jesus is giving to us, freedom from the power of our flesh, and freedom to live according to His Spirit.

Understanding that we are fully reconciled to God, nothing held back, His beloved children for ever, recipients of the fullness of His grace, this, at least for me, is what inspires my trust in Jesus that these things are actually the way He provides that I can live. We are being trained into it, and the more we can choose spirit over flesh the more we are participating in our renewel, and the more we will mature in the Spirit.

Doing all the things we know to help this, fellowship with believers, prayer and Bible reading/study, constant communion with God, these all build our faith, and our walk is by faith - what we believe is real, and not by sight, what we see in our lives.

God calls that which is not as though it were, and God does not lie, He brings it to pass.

Much love!

You made some very good points! Recognizing sin, denying the flesh, and trusting Jesus is what I took from that. I would say that is sound biblical advice! It is exactly what I believe is necessary to live and walk in the Spirit.

Taking those three focal points a little further, I would say that the foundation of living in the Spirit is faith in the finished work of Christ in what he did on the Cross. That alone gives us access to the Holy Spirit. In other words, that is our only hope for salvation and hope to overcome sin in this life.

Denying the flesh, in my opinion, cannot be done by our own abilities, strength, or willpower. In fact, denying the flesh is denying our ability to stop sinning, we simply cannot do it in the fashion required by the Lord.

My definition of "denying the flesh" is denying my ability/ strength to live for Christ in this flesh, and as Paul said, allowing "Christ to live in me" by the power of the Holy Spirit in me. Admitting I can't do it and depending on the Holy Spirit to guide me, who alone can take the sin out of my life. That to me is "walking in the Spirit." Total surrender of doing and total dependence on Him.

Of course we have to be honest in "recognizing sin." I try in my life to do what I know is right according to the scripture, that is the extent of my doing. Christ has done all the doing for me when He kept the Law perfectly, by faith in Him alone I am a Law-keeper in the sight of God. That is the wonderful Mercy and Grace given to us by the Father for believing in His Son.

I just go about my life doing what I know is right according to His Word, depending totally on the Holy Spirit to sanctify me, clean me up, so to speak, on the grounds of my faith in Christ. Reminds me of Paul saying, "if you by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live." Rom. 8:13.

That is exactly what Paul meant by "walking in the Spirit." Deny your ability to do anything good in this flesh, totally surrender to Him, and let Him do it for you and through you, "by the Spirit." That is what is pleasing to the Father, "living and walking in the Spirit."

 

[marks]

You made some very good points! Recognizing sin, denying the flesh, and trusting Jesus is what I took from that. I would say that is sound biblical advice! It is exactly what I believe is necessary to live and walk in the Spirit.

Taking those three focal points a little further, I would say that the foundation of living in the Spirit is faith in the finished work of Christ in what he did on the Cross. That alone gives us access to the Holy Spirit. In other words, that is our only hope for salvation and hope to overcome sin in this life.

Denying the flesh, in my opinion, cannot be done by our own abilities, strength, or willpower. In fact, denying the flesh is denying our ability to stop sinning, we simply cannot do it in the fashion required by the Lord.

My definition of "denying the flesh" is denying my ability/ strength to live for Christ in this flesh, and as Paul said, allowing "Christ to live in me" by the power of the Holy Spirit in me. Admitting I can't do it and depending on the Holy Spirit to guide me, who alone can take the sin out of my life. That to me is "walking in the Spirit." Total surrender of doing and total dependence on Him.

Of course we have to be honest in "recognizing sin." I try in my life to do what I know is right according to the scripture, that is the extent of my doing. Christ has done all the doing for me when He kept the Law perfectly, by faith in Him alone I am a Law-keeper in the sight of God. That is the wonderful Mercy and Grace given to us by the Father for believing in His Son.

I just go about my life doing what I know is right according to His Word, depending totally on the Holy Spirit to sanctify me, clean me up, so to speak, on the grounds of my faith in Christ. Reminds me of Paul saying, "if you by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live." Rom. 8:13.

That is exactly what Paul meant by "walking in the Spirit." Deny your ability to do anything good in this flesh, totally surrender to Him, and let Him do it for you and through you, "by the Spirit." That is what is pleasing to the Father, "living and walking in the Spirit."

I quite agree!

Romans 5:1-2 KJV
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Yes, I think you've filled in the other part of the equation very well! The same trust in Jesus having reconciled us to God that saves us is the same trust that we access His grace for our daily living.

Amen! The finished work of the cross!

Much love!

 

[Charlie24]

I quite agree!

Romans 5:1-2 KJV
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Yes, I think you've filled in the other part of the equation very well! The same trust in Jesus having reconciled us to God that saves us is the same trust that we access His grace for our daily living.

Amen! The finished work of the cross!

Much love!

Brother we think much alike!

You brought out my entire point of the matter. The Grace that saves us through faith in His Son, is the same Grace that sanctifies us in our daily living!

 

[Dropship]

I appreciate your humor but it does mask sad truth. How many ministers of the faith secretly judge those to whom they preach?
Jesus himself ministered to thieves, prostitutes and tax collectors. He focused his earthly ministry not on the rich and powerful but on the lost and downtrodden. His message wasn't one of fear, but of love. Yet today I hear the opposite. So much talk about salvation as a reward when we die and so little talk about living a Godly life today.

We're all happy to talk to nonchristians, for example some prostitutes gladly listened to Jesus-
He told the snooty priestly classes- “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you." (Matthew 21:31)
BUT if people won't listen we shouldn't waste any more time on them..
Jesus said:-"If any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them" (Mark 6:11)
"If you hang around with losers you become a loser"- Donald Trump

 

[LearningToLetGo]

BUT if people won't listen we shouldn't waste any more time on them..
Jesus said:-"If any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them" (Mark 6:11)

That is a good point and worth considering.

 

[APAK]

Christians get a bad rep as being judgemental and the truth is we are, or at least that's how we are seen.

I think it's because of the saved/not saved issue. By definition, being "saved" makes a Christian better than a non-Christian. How can this not be so? It's tantamount to one child turning to another and saying, "God loves me more."

This is the ultimate in egoism. It must be a sin. How does one resolve this issue?

You have established a dangerous indirect strawman here without any real evidence whatsoever. Christians calling themselves saved and easily labeled as judgmental by world standards should not be an issue. This is to be expected. To then add to it and suggest this combination causes egotism and superiority with God on their side as sin is dangerous and false. And to infer you side or sympathize with the world opinion no less. And so you now decide to attack this monster you just created by implying we should now minimize or discard the word saved or salvation from our vernacular and maybe even in scripture, as the resolution to your logical fallacy.

Being in Christ does not make me boast or think I'm better that a non-Christian. And God does not love me more than a non-believer either. He loves them as I love them, and He loves me more because I love his Son in simple language.

Salvation is central to the gospel in the person called Jesus. The word and its meaning must never be extinguished. What you are suggesting here is not a common thought of a genuine believer.

And then you ask the reader how do we resolve this so-called issue you just created.

You must know you subtly planted the resolution already in the minds of the readers.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

You have established a dangerous indirect strawman here without any real evidence whatsoever.

I can see your point of view.

He loves them as I love them, and He loves me more because I love his Son in simple language.

Does this mean what it sounds like? It sounds to me like you agree with my OP. If I misunderstand you then let me know so I may edit this post accordingly.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

How does one resolve this issue?

Since I was asked, I assert that we let go of the notion of saved or damned being a future event and see them as a current state. This means if you look to Jesus now then you are saved in the present moment. Conversely, if you reject Jesus now you are condemned in the present moment. In other words, Heaven and Hell are a state of being, not a physical location.

This idea carries an interesting corollary in that you remain "saved" no matter where you reside, even if you reside in Hell. (For example to minister to the damned). Conversely, the unsaved can never be content, even if allowed into Heaven, since they carry their torment with them.

 

[amadeus]

Salvation or Love?

Salvation or Love! What is most important? Do we follow Jesus so as to be saved or do we follow Him because we love Him?

Early on in the ideal natural relationship of a child he is dependent upon his parents. He does not know what is harmful to himself or others. Without his parents he cannot live. To this point it was survival or life [physical] itself that seemed most important to the child. Then in time as dependence lessens the love [which the parents always had for the child] is now [or should be] expressed by the child toward the parents. Where, as a child the parents provided all of his needs... everything, now as a maturing person, he should begin to give back more and more... to his parents.

When a person first meets Jesus, he is ignorant and innocent, completely dependent on mercy because he does not know if he has done something displeasing. As the child of God grows out of his innocent ignorance [if he does] he should be starting to understand love is [what God always had for him] and expressing it toward God. Similar to the natural child he has matured and similar to the natural child maturing should mean not only taking whatever he can get but now giving back... to God.

Salvation is so important to people. For a babe in Christ this is understandable, but God is expecting what natural parents expect from their children: Love. Then what is it we expect from our spouse or Spouse?

People get sometimes so hung up on the gifts of God, which really include salvation that they sometimes seem to forget the most important thing: Love. God does not forget it. As mature or at least maturing sons of God, do we love the promises of never-ending life and untold blessings more than we do God? Are we a young Bride waiting breathlessly for her beloved Husband or are we more like children wanting some more gifts?

"And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love." I Cor 13:13

We have faith that we may receive the things hoped for but not seen: salvation, an unending Life.
We have a hope that we are, or are to be, saved... that we will receive unending life and all of the other blessings of God... but...?

But... the greatest thing is Love!

Do we look forward more to the rewards than to seeing and being with the One we love?

Consider the love of the Bride toward the Bridegroom:

"By night on my bed I sought him whom my soul loveth: I sought him, but I found him not." Song of Solomon 3:1

"I opened to my beloved; but my beloved had withdrawn himself, and was gone: my soul failed when he spake: I sought him, but I could not find him; I called him, but he gave me no answer." Song of Solomon 5:6

"I charge you, O daughters of Jerusalem, if ye find my beloved, that ye tell him, that I am sick of love." Song of Solomon 5:8

"I am my beloved's, and my beloved is mine: he feedeth among the lilies." Song of Solomon 6:3

"I am my beloved's, and his desire is toward me" Song of Solomon 7:1

Do we not too often and too strongly speak of our salvation, our unending Life, our 'heavenly' home, and expected/hoped for blessings... rather than our Love for Him? How much do we love our Spouse? How much does our Spouse Love us?

We are supposed to be one half of a Love story, not kids waiting to see what Santa Claus brought us!

Does God approve of presumption? What is our part?

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

 

[Angelina]

Christians get a bad rep as being judgemental and the truth is we are, or at least that's how we are seen.

I think it's because of the saved/not saved issue. By definition, being "saved" makes a Christian better than a non-Christian. How can this not be so? It's tantamount to one child turning to another and saying, "God loves me more."

This is the ultimate in egoism. It must be a sin. How does one resolve this issue?

Wow! If you understood the salvation message and how it applies to all people, you would not be so hasty in judging the two positions. There was a time when you were in this place of not knowing Christ and not knowing his mercy and grace which he paid for us on the cross. We have been called to become more like Christ and less like the world in our daily walk. This is part of our sanctification process and also part of our responsibilty as believers.

Christians are not better than non-Chistians. The difference is in Christ. He died on the cross for our sins. Anyone who believes in him by faith and recieves him as their personal Lord and savior, are saved and the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in them and helps them along the sanctification path.

Those who have had the opportunity and choose not to follow Christ, remain in their sins. Those who have not yet heard the salvation message also remain in their sins. Christians know that they have eternal life and know where they are going when they die. Non-Christians do not know what will happen to them after they die. The other part of our responsibilty as believers is this:

The responsibily of reconciliation toward those who do not know Christ.

2 Corinthians 5 says:
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Peace!

 

[quietthinker]

And we Should know, and we Should let others know!

Much love!

If we know, all our energies are spent in lifting Jesus up.
Lifting Jesus up is a far cry from arguing doctrines ad nauseam.
Arguing doctrines ad nauseam is evidence one does not know Jesus.