The Problem With The Trinity

[Jun2u]

Everyone who responded on the vision Peter received is really not on the same page, because no one is looking at the vision from God’s point of view but through preconceived ideas. The thrust of Acts 10 to 11:18 is NOT really about eating of clean and unclean things, but rather an example of the continuation from the beginning of Pentecost to evangelize the whole world.

Note there are two visions spoken of in Acts 10. One to Cornelius and the other to Peter yet they correlate. God tells us how that Cornelius a centurion, a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house and prayed always (indicating he was a saved person). I’m not going to dwell on the vision for we all know it.

In the meantime, Peter also had a vision about clean and unclean beasts, creeping things, and fowls of the air and a voice came to him, Rise Peter; kill, and eat. But Peter replied “not so Lord” because he knew the law about eating unclean meat. However, the answer came back, “what God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. Before we became saved, we were all dirty rotten sinners.

The spiritual teaching of significance here is that God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34), as we have seen in Cornelius. God will save whom He wishes to save! Gentiles and Jews alike.

Acts 11:17-18 reads:

17) Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as He gave unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18) When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

How marvelous and clarity the Scripture becomes when we understand what it is trying to convey.

To God Be The Glory

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Absolutely agree jun2u. But when you are talking to men who have yoked themselves anew, you are limited in some ways.

 

[gadar perets]

so do we go with Leviticus rather than Jesus saying it is what comes OUT of a man that defiles him?

or are we missing something important?

I am not missing anything important. For Yeshua to teach anything contrary to what his Father taught while he was living under the old Covenant would have been sin. We need to harmonize his words with what his Father taught and not put them at odds with each other.

YHWH taught that eating unclean flesh defiles a man. Yeshua taught eating with unclean hands does not defile a man. Yet, you want to put your own words in Yeshua's mouth to make him say something he never intended.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

They are not my words. They came from HIS mouth.

 

[gadar perets]

Absolutely agree jun2u. But when you are talking to men who have yoked themselves anew, you are limited in some ways.

How can you agree with Jun2u, but disagree with me? He said the same thing I did; that it is not about cleansing unclean food, but about cleansing people.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No, the two of you did not say the same thing. Not by a long shot.

 

[gadar perets]

No, the two of you did not say the same thing. Not by a long shot.

I quoted Acts 10:28 to show what YHWH was teaching Peter through the vision and that He was not teaching him that all unclean food is now clean.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

For us gentiles, we do not stop eating the foods we always did. In fact, we were told to do two things but no others can't look them up. In an unbelievable twist, my mom just had another accident...she's okay. I was not in the car this time. She had just drove away with the rental because the one we were in is totaled beyond belief. Good grief!

 

[brakelite]

The thing that people seem to not want to face is the fact that God did not declare certain animals and living creatures to be unclean as some arbitrary law for no reason. The reason God declared them unclean was because that was exactly what they were, and good was informing his people of that fact, because he was protecting them from potential disease and even death. Shellfish today are still unclean. They still absorb toxins from the oceans, today even to a greater degree than 4000 years ago. When to the point when government agencies ban entire areas from fishing because of the poisonous nature of the fish. Oh, but the modern ignorant Christian will come along and say God had made all those poisonous fish unpoisonous, right?

 

[justbyfaith]

They are not parallel passages.

I beg to differ. But surely you are the only one who interprets scripture correctly.

If you choose to not be subject to the law, then you are a weak carnally minded believer (Romans 8:7).

I told you that I myself do try to obey the food laws; but you ignored that and accused me of being a law-breaker. My point is that there is no condemnation for them which are in Christ Jesus (John 5:24, Romans 8:1).

but if you continue to reject the Spirit's leading, then you will remain in your carnally minded state.

Most assuredly you are Jesus Christ Himself and therefore you are the perfect judge. Did I not tell you that I do my best to obey the food laws? it seems to me that you are willfully ignoring this fact.

i'm sure you believe that, and i don't mean to say that you aren't forgiven for this anyway; unfortunately that we all recognize Ishtar during Passover is more a national reflection than a personal one, regardless of our perspectives i guess

It is not a sin to celebrate the resurrection of our Lord on Easter Sunday; while it may indeed be a sin to observe the pagan elements that have come to be in the holiday.

Yeshua said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." He did NOT say, "If you love me, I will keep my commandments for you."

See Galatians 2:20.

Everyone who responded on the vision Peter received is really not on the same page, because no one is looking at the vision from God’s point of view but through preconceived ideas. The thrust of Acts 10 to 11:18 is NOT really about eating of clean and unclean things, but rather an example of the continuation from the beginning of Pentecost to evangelize the whole world.

Note there are two visions spoken of in Acts 10. One to Cornelius and the other to Peter yet they correlate. God tells us how that Cornelius a centurion, a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house and prayed always (indicating he was a saved person). I’m not going to dwell on the vision for we all know it.

In the meantime, Peter also had a vision about clean and unclean beasts, creeping things, and fowls of the air and a voice came to him, Rise Peter; kill, and eat. But Peter replied “not so Lord” because he knew the law about eating unclean meat. However, the answer came back, “what God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. Before we became saved, we were all dirty rotten sinners.

The spiritual teaching of significance here is that God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34), as we have seen in Cornelius. God will save whom He wishes to save! Gentiles and Jews alike.

Acts 11:17-18 reads:

17) Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as He gave unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18) When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

How marvelous and clarity the Scripture becomes when we understand what it is trying to convey.

To God Be The Glory

Did Cornelius when he became a Christian suddenly become Jewish and immediately began to obey the food laws? I believe that Peter's vision was given so that he would know not to judge the new Gentile converts over what they would be eating. Acts 15 is clear that there are only a few things from the OT law that are even required of Gentile Christians: and observing OT food laws isn't one of them.

 

[gadar perets]

They are not my words. They came from HIS mouth.

He did NOT say eating unclean meat does not defile a person. You take him out of context to make him say that.

 

[gadar perets]

For us gentiles, we do not stop eating the foods we always did.

The things you call "food" were never declared "food" in Scripture. Swine's flesh and other abominations are not food. They are unclean, inedible animal flesh.

 

[gadar perets]

I beg to differ. But surely you are the only one who interprets scripture correctly.

Here is a simple definition of a "parallel passage" from Wikipedia: "In Christian theology, a parallel passage is a passage in another portion of the Bible which describes the same event." The verses you quoted do not describe the same event, nor do they refer to the same subject.

I told you that I myself do try to obey the food laws; but you ignored that and accused me of being a law-breaker. My point is that there is no condemnation for them which are in Christ Jesus (John 5:24, Romans 8:1).

Most assuredly you are Jesus Christ Himself and therefore you are the perfect judge. Did I not tell you that I do my best to obey the food laws? it seems to me that you are willfully ignoring this fact.

I did not ignore your statement. I was surprised by it since you just finished saying, "It is a doctrine of demons to command to abstain from meats that God has created to be received with thanksgiving" and that Christians are "not under the law". I agree there is no condemnation for those who are in Messiah Yeshua, but you left out the second part of that verse; "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." If we walk after the flesh, we will face condemnation (an adverse sentence, not necessarily loss of salvation, but possibly). I desire to spare all of you such condemnation.

It is not a sin to celebrate the resurrection of our Lord on Easter Sunday;

I would say it is for the simple fact that one must lie by saying, "Today is the anniversary of Jesus' resurrection", when it really isn't because Easter does not always coincide with the day the wave sheaf was offered which was a shadow of the resurrection. The same holds true for Christmas when we lie to our children and tell them, "Today is Jesus' birthday!"

See Galatians 2:20.

That verse does not teach Yeshua keeps the commandments for us. If so, that means when we break a commandment, Yeshua failed to keep it for us.

Acts 15 is clear that there are only a few things from the OT law that are even required of Gentile Christians: and observing OT food laws isn't one of them.

What was not commanded in Acts 15 is irrelevant. There were many commandments that were not given to Gentiles in Acts 15 that they MUST obey. "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt not commit adultery" being two of them.

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
​

The word "For" in verse 21 ties the verse into verse 20. Only those four things were commanded at that time because they knew the Gentiles would eventually learn the rest of the Law of Moses when they heard him read every Sabbath Day.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

He did NOT say eating unclean meat does not defile a person. You take him out of context to make him say that.

Correct.
He did not say those words. He said:
It is not what enters your body that defiles you, it is what comes out of yo

He did NOT say eating unclean meat does not defile a person. You take him out of context to make him say that.

You are correct. He did not say these words: "eating unclean meat does not defile a person."
What He said was this: It's not what goes into your mouth that defiles you; you are defiled by the words that come out of your mouth."

 

[gadar perets]

Correct.
He did not say those words. He said:
It is not what enters your body that defiles you, it is what comes out of yo


You are correct. He did not say these words: "eating unclean meat does not defile a person."
What He said was this: It's not what goes into your mouth that defiles you; you are defiled by the words that come out of your mouth."

Learn to interpret the Bible based on CONTEXT.

Mat 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
​

They were Jewish men living under the old covenant eating clean food with dirty hands.

Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.​

The context begins with eating with dirty hands and Yeshua sums up his teaching referencing eating with dirty hands. It is people that do not want to be told what they can or cannot eat that come up with their bogus interpretations so they don't have to give up their bacon and shrimp.

 

[justbyfaith]

The verses you quoted do not describe the same event, nor do they refer to the same subject.

Actually they do.

That verse does not teach Yeshua keeps the commandments for us. If so, that means when we break a commandment, Yeshua failed to keep it for us.

When we break a commandment, it is because we have taken back our surrender to the Lord for a moment, so that He is no longer living His life in us and through us.

What was not commanded in Acts 15 is irrelevant. There were many commandments that were not given to Gentiles in Acts 15 that they MUST obey. "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt not commit adultery" being two of them.

See Galatians 5:14 and Romans 5:5.

Our obedience isn't about meticulously observing a set of do's and don'ts any longer. It is about letting God's love be alive in us and living according to it because we have been redeemed through faith alone in Jesus Christ (the Messiah).

 

[Jun2u]

No, the two of you did not say the same thing. Not by a long shot.

Unfortunately, @gadar is correct. Even unsaved men know some spiritual truths, but that doesn’t mean they are saved nor can they know all truths.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Jun2u]

Acts 15 is clear that there are only a few things from the OT law that are even required of Gentile Christians: and observing OT food laws isn't one of them.

You are correct, of course about the food laws, because the Ceremonial Laws along with the food laws were completed in Christ.

There are however two rituals from the Old Testament that transitioned to the New Testament, that is the Passover into the Communion Table, and Circumcision to Baptism.

To God Be The Glory

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Unfortunately, @gadar is correct. Even unsaved men know some spiritual truths, but that doesn’t mean they are saved nor can they know all truths.

To God Be The Glory

I misunderstood what you were trying to convey then, sorry.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Learn to interpret the Bible based on CONTEXT.

Mat 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
​

They were Jewish men living under the old covenant eating clean food with dirty hands.

Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.​

The context begins with eating with dirty hands and Yeshua sums up his teaching referencing eating with dirty hands. It is people that do not want to be told what they can or cannot eat that come up with their bogus interpretations so they don't have to give up their bacon and shrimp.

One scripture, and the context of one s cripture, does not give a man clear sight. You need other scriptures too, to see clearly.

In Colossians 2 we are told, don t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, ( he was speaking to us gentiles) or for not celebrating certain days or sabbaths, because these rules are only shadows of the reality to come, and Christ himself is that reality. So don't let anyone condemn you by their insistence on pious self denial. Their sinful minds have made them proud and they are not connected to Christ. You have died with Christ and He has set you free from the spiritual powers/ principles of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of this world such as- don't handle! Don't taste! Don't touch! Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them. These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person's evil desires.