The Problem With The Trinity

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gadar perets

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ya, no pot/kettle there at all huh
I have never stated someone is going to hell for believing a certain doctrine as jbf has.

For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,
see gadar, you are even doing it right now ok.
You forgot to quote verse 5;

For it is sanctified by the Word of God and prayer.
Where is it sanctified? Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14.
 

gadar perets

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would you bet your life on it? do you know that in the time you are all hot to reenact you would have been stoned to death a long time ago simply for the way you talk, the statements you make?
I have no idea what this means.

No one alive knows for sure how the ancients pronounced a single word gadar, but our linguists assure us that the drift in 500 years or so makes any language unintelligible,
That doesn't stop you from using "Jesus" and it certainly will not stop me from using "Yeshua".
 

gadar perets

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I have asked for anyone to give an the alternate interpretation of what Jesus really meant when He said what He did in John 8:24. I'm still waiting for that.
I gave you an irrefutable Scriptural alternate interpretation the first time you brought it up. Go back and look for it.
 

bbyrd009

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I have asked for anyone to give an the alternate interpretation of what Jesus really meant when He said what He did in John 8:24. I'm still waiting for that.
tell ya what, if you tell me why Christ said "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God"
then i will tell you unequivocally why Jesus said that

but tbh imo that is the last thing you want, and i expect this convo is over now
 

justbyfaith

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I have never stated someone is going to hell for believing a certain doctrine as jbf has.


You forgot to quote verse 5;

For it is sanctified by the Word of God and prayer.
Where is it sanctified? Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14.
No, it is sanctified in Mark 7:15-19, Luke 11:41, and Romans 14:14. Not to mention the passage in question, 1 Timothy 4:1-6.
 

justbyfaith

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I gave you an irrefutable Scriptural alternate interpretation the first time you brought it up. Go back and look for it.
I don't think you did, or else you would be able to simply repeat it to me now.

At least give me the thread name that I can find it in. It might not even be in this thread; as our conversation has traversed more than one.
 
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justbyfaith

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I have never stated someone is going to hell for believing a certain doctrine as jbf has.
Actually that is inaccurate. I have stated the someone is going to hell for not believing a certain biblical doctrine (the Deity of Christ), based on scripture (John 8:24).
 
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justbyfaith

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tell ya what, if you tell me why Christ said "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God"
then i will tell you unequivocally why Jesus said that

but tbh imo that is the last thing you want, and i expect this convo is over now
Sorry, I didn't realize that you were talking to me at first.

The answer is simple:

Jesus was drawing out from the rich young ruler the understanding that He was and is indeed God.

iow, "you admit that I am good...but you must realize that only God is good...so the next step, for you, is to admit that I am God."

But really I want the answer from @gadar perets as to why Jesus said what He said in John 8:24. What is the alternate interpretation? it seems to me that it is saying that if anyone does't believe that Jesus is the great I AM, they will die in their sins.

And even if there is an alternate interpretation, you would be taking chances on believing in it. Because if you are wrong and the alternate interpretation isn't accurate, you will die in your sins if you fail to believe that Jesus is the great I AM. And I think that the only reason why someone might want to believe in an alternate interpretation might be because they don't believe that Jesus is the great I AM and want to be justified in that opinion, i.e. to believe that they can still go to heaven denying Christ's Deity; which is simply never going to happen.
 
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gadar perets

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I don't think you did, or else you would be able to simply repeat it to me now.

At least give me the thread name that I can find it in. It might not even be in this thread; as our conversation has traversed more than one.
I will explain the verse again. This time, instead of whipping off a refutation, try understanding my view.

John 8:21 Then said Yeshua again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
John 8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.​

Context. "If you believe not that I am" what? "That I am the I AM"? Of course not! If you believe not that "I am from above" and that "I am not of this world" referring to his heavenly origin from the Father. To clarify where he was going, he said, "I am from above" meaning heaven. He was going back to his place of origin and the Jews could not follow him there. Verse 24 is directly tied to verse 23. In verse 23 he tells them that "I am ..." and "I am ...". He then says, "if you believe not that I am (from above and not of this world). Yet, you want Yeshua to say out of the blue that he is the great I AM of Exodus 3:14. How could the Jews die in their sins by not believing Yeshua is the great I AM if they were NEVER taught he IS the great I AM?

We know for a FACT that the great I AM is Yeshua's Father. There is absolutely no denying that (Exodus 3:6; Exodus 3:14-15; Acts 3:13). So, if in fact Yeshua was referring to the I AM in John 8:24 (which he wasn't), then when he said, "for if you believe not that I AM," he was really saying, "if you believe not my Father". However, the I AM of Exodus 3:14 is not any part of this conversation with the Jews. It is not even part of the conversation in John 8:58.

Also, notice John 9:8-9;

John 9:8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged?
John 9:9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.​

The last "he" in verse 9 is added. The blind only said, "ego eimi" (I am). "I am" what? "I am the one that sat and begged." Not, "I AM the great I AM of Exodus 3:14.
 
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justbyfaith

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Yes, I understand your point of view.

The problem with it that I see being that in John 8:58, when Jesus broke normal grammatical usage to make a claim that He had previously made in John 8:24, the Jews understood what the implications were of what He was saying; they picked up stones to stone Him for claiming to be the great I AM. This is shown clearly when, after they picked up stones to stone Him a second time, and He asked them what good work they were stoning Him for, they said, "for a good work we stone thee not: but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a Man, makest thyself God."

The Jews understood therefore that in both cases in which they picked up stones to stone Him (the second time because He proclaimed, "I and my Father are One," just like it is written in Isaiah 9:6), they were stoning Him for His claim to Deity.

Even in Mark 14:61-64, it becomes clear that the reason why Jesus was worthy of crucifixion in their sight was because He was a blasphemer in their opinion: He claimed to be God. Now if He was not God, then He was truly crucified for the sin of blasphemy and therefore He died for His own sins and therefore His death would not have been sufficient to pay for ours: but since He is the God who created us, His infinite Person was able (and enough) to absorb the sin of the world and still have enough life left over to be raised from the dead.
 

gadar perets

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I do not have time to reply to your post before I go to work. I would like to add a few remarks about my last post.

"for if you believe not that I am he" KJV
"for if you do not believe that I am He" NKV​

Your beloved KJV adds the word "he" in italics in John 8:24. The NKJV adds the word "He" in italics. Why do both sets of translators do that?
By adding he/He they changed the meaning of the text from Yeshua referring to his place of origin to Yeshua referring to his identity. Why didn't YHWH preserve His Word here rather than allow both sets of translators to distort the Word by a man made addition?

YOU omit "he" or "He" and capitalize "I AM" whereas they don't? Why? Because they did not believe Yeshua was saying he was the great "I AM". This would have been a golden opportunity for the KJV and NJKV to just write "I AM" as the KJV did in Exodus 3:14 and as the NKJV did in John 8:58, but they didn't. Writing it as "I AM" and believing Yeshua was claiming he is the great "I AM" in that verse is just your erroneous interpretation.
 

bbyrd009

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i.e. to believe that they can still go to heaven denying Christ's Deity; which is simply never going to happen.
not sure why "God is the head of Christ" is such a problem for most ppl, ya. "Deity" i save for the Father, the only One Who knows? but i understand the desire to worship Jesus as Mercury/Apollo too, for those who seek a literal heaven in an imaginary afterlife; the lesson of Nehushtan seems plain to me.

when you become One as They are One how are you going to handle the worship directed your way, do you think?
i'm just rereading Paul's account on that now
 
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bbyrd009

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when you become One as They are One how are you going to handle the worship directed your way, do you think?

the problem with the Trinity is the same thing as
the elephant in the room imo
:)
 

justbyfaith

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Why didn't YHWH preserve His Word here rather than allow both sets of translators to distort the Word by a man made addition?

Maybe He isn't one or all of the following attributes: sovereign, Omnipotent, loving.

But because we both know that He is actually all of those attributes, I think that we both know that YHWH also did indeed preserve His word in John 8:24 just the way He wanted to. He is in italics: God's way of saying that we should look at it apart from what is written in italics, i.e. Jesus' statement, I said therefore to you that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM (He), ye shall die in your sins.

Writing it as "I AM" and believing Yeshua was claiming he is the great "I AM" in that verse is just your erroneous interpretation.

It is your choice of belief that my interpretation is erroneous. The only thing I want to say to you on that is that I hope you realize that you have made your bed and that you are going to have to lie in it. If my interpretation is correct, then you will die in your sins unless you repent of your unbelief towards the faithful and biblical doctrine of the Deity of Jesus Christ. If your interpretation is correct, then idolatry is not the unpardonable sin and can be forgiven through the blood of Jesus Christ. But a man cannot believe simply because he has reason to: it is a matter of what is in the heart: your response to the message of the gospel.
 

justbyfaith

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That the doctrine of the Trinity leads to certain conclusions does not mean that we ought to preach those conclusions if we believe in them for that we believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. However the fact that the doctrine of the Trinity leads to those conclusions means that in preaching the Trinity, those conclusions are also in the package of believing in the Trinity. However what we call orthodox Christianity does not accept those conclusions as sound doctrine, so we leave it up to the believer to form those conclusions on his own only if he sees them as being the inevitable conclusion of the doctrine of the Trinity. impaho, those conclusions don't need to be preached because 1) they are not an integral part of the gospel message; and 2) they are the inevitable conclusion of believing in the Trinity, and therefore the belief in them will come as the result of believing in the Trinity whether we preach them or not.

re #1253.
 

bbyrd009

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when you become One as They are One how are you going to handle the worship directed your way, do you think?

guess you could always just get ordained
 

justbyfaith

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when you become One as They are One how are you going to handle the worship directed your way, do you think?

guess you could always just get ordained
I normally feel the joy that comes from worship when all the saints are together worshiping the Lord. I can only say that we as believers are members of the body of Christ...and let you take it from there.
 

bbyrd009

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I normally feel the joy that comes from worship when all the saints are together worshiping the Lord. I can only say that we as believers are members of the body of Christ...and let you take it from there.
narrow is the path, and few there are who find it

but you can sing "when we all get to heaven" a few more times i guess, if you like
 
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gadar perets

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The problem with it that I see being that in John 8:58, when Jesus broke normal grammatical usage to make a claim that He had previously made in John 8:24, the Jews understood what the implications were of what He was saying; they picked up stones to stone Him for claiming to be the great I AM. This is shown clearly when, after they picked up stones to stone Him a second time, and He asked them what good work they were stoning Him for, they said, "for a good work we stone thee not: but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a Man, makest thyself God."

The Jews understood therefore that in both cases in which they picked up stones to stone Him (the second time because He proclaimed, "I and my Father are One," just like it is written in Isaiah 9:6), they were stoning Him for His claim to Deity.
Exodus 3:14-15 reads, "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, YHWH, God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations." Therefore, the "I AM" is identified as "YHWH."

And what does Yeshua say in Psalm 2:7? "I will declare the decree: YHWH hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." YHWH is the Father of Yeshua. Yeshua is the Son of YHWH. Yeshua is not YHWH and the Son is not the Father. Therefore, Yeshua (the Son of YHWH) cannot be the I AM (YHWH). That alone should be sufficient to discredit the belief that Yeshua was claiming to be the "I AM." But let's look into the matter a little farther.

In the Greek Septuagint (LXX), Exodus 3:14 reads,

καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν· καὶ εἶπεν Οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ Ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς.​

In Septuagint English it reads, "And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you."

In KJV English it reads, "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

In John 8:58, "I am" is "ἐγώ εἰμι" in Greek. As you can see, "Ἐγώ εἰμι" in Exodus 3:14 is just the prelude to what the Almighty really wanted the Israelites to know, that is, that He was the "ὁ ὤν" or "the Being" or "the Existing One".

If Yeshua truly wanted to tell the Jews he was the great "I am" of Exodus 3:14, he would have said, "Before Abraham was I am the Being" or "I am the Existing One".

It is believed that John 8:59 further supports the position that Yeshua is the "I AM." Why else would the Jews try to stone him? He obviously blasphemed in the eyes of the Jews, a stoneable offense. Or did he? Is the mere utterance of "ego eimi" a blasphemy? Does the use of "ego eimi" automatically identify the speaker as YHWH, the I AM?

Several individuals aside from Yeshua used "ego eimi" as well. In Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel said, "Ego eimi Gabriel." In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Yeshua said, "Ego eimi." In Acts 10:21, Peter said, "Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek." Obviously, the mere use of "ego eimi" does not equate one to the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. But perhaps the Savior's use of it was somehow different. After all, he came down from heaven.

If, in fact, Yeshua spoke Greek to the Jews (which I doubt), he used the phrase "ego eimi" at least twenty times and yet, in only one instance did the Jews seek to stone him (John 8:58). Yeshua said, "I am the bread of life" to a large crowd in John 6:35 & 48, yet no one opposed him. In verse 41, the Jews murmured because he said, "I am (ego eimi) the bread which came down from heaven." But in verse 42, the Jews questioned only the phrase, "I came down from heaven" and ignored "ego eimi." The same is true of verses 51 & 52.

In John 8:12, 18, 24, & 28, Yeshua used "ego eimi" with Pharisees present (vs.13) and yet, no stoning. He, again, used it four times in John 10:7, 9, 11, & 14 with no stoning. Yeshua said to his disciples, "...that...ye may believe that I am (ego eimi)" in John 13:19 without them batting an eye.

An interesting account occurs in John 18 when the Jews came to arrest Yeshua in the Garden of Gethsemane. When the chief priests and Pharisees said they were seeking Yeshua of Nazareth, Yeshua said to them, "Ego eimi." At that they fell backward to the ground. It is not made clear why they fell to the ground, but what followed will make it clear that Yeshua was not claiming to be the "I AM."

After Yeshua's arrest, the Jews took him to Annas first (vs.13). Then they took him to Caiaphas (vs.24) and eventually to Pilate (vss.28,29). A parallel account is found in Matthew 26:57-68. Notice, in particular, verse 59. The same men that had fallen backward to the ground were in attendance when the council sought false witnesses against Yeshua to put him to death. Verse 60 says they couldn't find any. Eventually two came forward. Interestingly, they didn't bear false witness about what Yeshua said in John 8:58, but about his reference to destroying the temple and building it again in three days. Where were all those witnesses from John 8:58?

The point about Matthew 26 is, why would false witnesses be sought if they had true witnesses in attendance? The arresting officers heard Yeshua say "Ego eimi." They could have stoned him right there in the garden for blasphemy, but they didn't. They could have reported the supposed blasphemy to the council, but they didn't. Why not? Because it wasn't blasphemy, nor was it a stoneable offense. He was merely identifying himself as Yeshua of Nazareth.

This brings us back to John 8:58. Why did the Jews seek to stone him on that occasion? The context of John 8 shows that Yeshua;

1) accused the Pharisees of "judging after the flesh" (vs.15).
2) said they would die in their sins (vss.21,24).
3) implied they were in bondage (vss.32,33).
4) said they were servants of sin (vs.34).
5) said they were out to kill him (vss. 37,40).
6) implied they were spiritually deaf (vs.43,47).
7) said their father was the devil (vs.44).
8) said they were not of God (vs.47).
9) accused them of dishonoring him (vs.49).
10) accused them of not knowing Yahweh (vs.55).
11) accused them of lying (vs.55).

Aside from that, the Jews misunderstood Yeshua's words leading
them to believe;

1) that he accused them of being born of fornication (vs.41).
2) Yeshua had a devil (vs.52).
3) that he was exalting himself above Abraham (vs.53).
4) that he saw Abraham (vs.56).


Yeshua's words in verse 58 were the culmination of an encounter that was so offensive to the Jews that they couldn't restrain themselves anymore. They simply couldn't take it anymore so they sought to stone him, not because of two simple words, "ego eimi," but because he was making himself out to be greater than their beloved father Abraham. They sought to stone him illegally.