The Problems of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.

[Bible Highlighter]

1 Timothy 5:8 is spoken by the apostle Paul (the famous grace teacher). Paul is actually saying if you do not provide for your own (your close brethren) or especially they that of your own household, you have denied the faith and you are worse than an infidel (i.e. unbeliever). So why would Paul say this if a faithful born again believer will just automatically do this? Paul is talking to a believer (Timothy) and he is writing to how if one does not provide for their own, they basically are not saved. While being born again does give us a new heart with new desires, we are not so completely changed by the new birth to a point whereby we can never mess up ever again (Unless we have overcome sin in this life by the help by the Spirit and the Word of God). God does not force a person to be a certain way. We all have choices to make in life after we are saved by God’s grace. Paul is basically saying you have to have the good work of providing for your own otherwise you will not be saved. If providing for your own was just automatic to a born again believer (who has a belief alone in Jesus for salvation), then Paul would say to Timothy… “We know that those who are born again of God will provide for their own.” But Paul does not use those kinds of words with Timothy. So this is a verse that the Protestant Belief Alone Salvationist has to either (a) ignore, or (b) twist or change the verse to say something else (because they don’t like what it says).

Then there is Galatians 6:7-9.

Verse 7 starts off saying right away…. “Be not deceived.” Again, I believe this warning to be not deceived ties into the strong delusion mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12. Paul says… “Be not deceived… whatsoever a man sows…that shall he also reap.”

Verse 8 says he that sows to the flesh shall reap corruption. The word “flesh” here is in context to “sin” because Galatians 5:19 says, “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness,…” etcetera. This corruption is contrasted with eternal life so it’s not a good end for somebody.

For verse 8 continues to say that he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap “life everlasting.” “Life everlasting” (eternal life) is a phrase in the Bible for salvation (or living forever with God). So what is this sowing to the Spirit? Well, in verse 9 it gives us the definition of what sowing to the Spirit looks like.

Verse 9 (Describing the sowing to the Spirit) says, “well doing” (Which are good deeds or good works). We are told in verse 9 that we should not be weary in well doing for in due season will shall reap if we faint not. Meaning we will reap everlasting life by well doing (good works) if we faint not (if we do not fail to continue in our faith in doing good). So this passage is saying that works is a part of our salvation. There really is no other way to read this passage unless somebody has an agenda to change it because they don’t like what it says plainly.

 

[Charlie24]

@Charlie24

You also have not really explained what your position is on 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12, and Ephesians 5:5-6 (Which is a part of the video from Adam at Epiousion Apologetics).

They both appear to be connected in that a deception or delusion is going on.
The strong delusion to believe a lie are those who have pleasure in unrighteousness.

Many Protestant Belief Alone Salvationists believe they can have pleasure in unrighteousness and be saved (or at least do unrighteousness and be saved). Note: Those who say they hate their sin and have no pleasure in it are simply lying. They do the sin because they find the sin pleasurable in the moment. If they truly hated their sin, and loved God more, they would simply stop. Anyways, Paul says to be not deceived (Deception, strong delusion), the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. Yet, many Protestants today say they will inherit the Kingdom despite their being unrighteous in conduct. How do you explain away these passages?

Let's look at 2 Thes. 2:11-12 for example.

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

It is those who "believed not the truth" that had pleasure in unrighteousness, and were sent the delusion!

The unsaved, BH. How hard is that to understand?

In Eph. 5:5-6, Paul describes the sins that will lead the believer to the place of unbelief. Then in vs. 6 he warns them of the chastisement of God on such sins! Then in vs. 7 he warns not to be partakers in such things.

Do you have a perception problem, BH?

 

[BarneyFife]

I don’t agree. I don’t believe we would criticize a video or sermon that we would primarily agree with. One would at least praise the video if they liked it, and they could have a side bar of minor disagreement with it (if they felt it was absolutely necessary). But even the point of criticism you brought up was not what he was saying. Nowhere did Adam say that this was the only two big places in the Bible on apostasy. That’s reading too much into something he never said.

.
.
It is regrettable that you so highly object to my point of his referring to Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 as containing "the two biggest warnings in the Bible against apostasy" (direct quote—his words; not mine) which is not the same as saying "the only two big places in the Bible on apostasy" (direct quote—your words; not mine) but, nevertheless, not long after that point in the video, I decided not to watch the rest because, with a title like "The End Times Delusion...," I figured it was just another Youtube theological hobby horse outing.

But after giving your reply quoted above some more thought (I was unavoidably occupied with other things for a while) I decided to watch the whole thing in order to give it a fair evaluation, and what I came away with is basically the same message I'm perceiving from your posts in this thread—that performance is much more important than faith.

Nowhere in the video is there mentioned a solution to the legitimate problem he correctly observes. And nowhere in the video is it substantiated in a reasonable hermeneutical fashion that "OSAS" or "eternal security" is the end-time delusion that will deceive, if possible, even the very elect. Delusions and deceptions are everywhere in the Bible. Nothing really links 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12, and Ephesians 5:5-6 as an eschatological concern.

**********************

You see, when a person realizes they are at enmity with God, there are two ways to rectify the problem:

Do better in order to get better;

-or-

Get better in order to do better.

You might agree that the latter is the way to go. I certainly do.

But what might surprise you is that, in reality, every other way finds its basis in the first option—even "'Protestant' (formerly known as 'Perpetual,' speaking of attempts to change the subject of the thread) Belief Alone Salvationism."

Any way of righting oneself with God other than His way is legalism.

There are no historical Old and New Covenants.

There is only unbelief and belief.

"My way" or receiving and abiding/walking.

How does one walk? The same way they received (Colossians 2:6). Paul died daily. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof, Jesus said. The old man must die daily.

The New Covenant is actually the Everlasting Covenant/Gospel.

The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world—this is the New Covenant or Everlasting Gospel.

The law is written on the heart (New Covenant) at Calvary's Cross.

The "Old Covenant" was never meant to save anyone—ever.

A heart transplant is what salvation is about.

People don't like that idea.

You've used the word "Calvary" in 0 of your posts in this thread.

You've used the word "cross" in 33 of your posts, but not in a way that proposes it as an entirely heart-changing experience/solution to the needs of man:

Search Results | Christian Forums @ Christianity Board

"Gospel" appears in 29 posts and it's not much better.

The bulk of this thread presents and stresses a dry, academic, and imbalanced view of faith and works, regardless of intentions.

You might want to back off with the "Protestant"-bashing since it only alienates and there are plenty of non/anti-denoms and Catholics living in sin.

All of these discussions that slice and dice and contrast the grace that forgives with the grace which empowers to righteous living is inherently divisive in nature and never fails to destroy unity.

And we don't have to agree to disagree, we can just plain ol' disagree.
. But
.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Let's look at 2 Thes. 2:11-12 for example.

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

It is those who "believed not the truth" that had pleasure in unrighteousness, and were sent the delusion!

The unsaved, BH. How hard is that to understand?

Again, your false holiness routine (fake sheep skin) is not going to work.
You don’t believe holy living as taught in the Bible (2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:13).

The problem is that you said, I quote.

“Yes, I'm a sinner saved by grace!” Quote by Charlie24.​

Source quote.

This suggests that you are currently a sinner now who is sinning in the present (or who will sin again) and yet you will still be saved by God’s grace (Which is wrong).

You said, I quote:

“In reality I am a sinner, for no one is without sin. But in the eyes of God, by faith in His Son, I am righteous, sinless, and perfect in Christ! Salvation is a free gift to one who believes even though he doesn't deserve it.” Quote by Charlie24.​

Source quote.

This means you are turning God’s grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). But he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).

These sayings are typical of the Protestant Belief Alone Salvationist beliefs.

Therefore…

Protestant Belief Alone Salvationists are…

#1. Not believing the truth
(i.e. They are not believing the truth properly in dealing with sin and salvation;
And, they believe in another Jesus who allows them to justify their sin).
Thus, they are not believing the correct truth.

#2. Having pleasure in unrighteousness (Note: While Protestant Belief Alone Salvationists tell me they hate their sin and they don’t like doing it, this simply is a cover story that is false because people sin for the pure and simple fact that they find it pleasurable. Nobody is going to sin if they don’t take some kind of enjoyment or pleasure in it on some level). “By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;” (Hebrews 11:24-25).

In Eph. 5:5-6, Paul describes the sins that will lead the believer to the place of unbelief.

No. It does not say that. You are twisting Scripture. It simply says, “For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.” (Ephesians 5:5).

Paul says I am not to let any man deceive me on this point with vain [empty] words.

I believe Paul’s words here, and not your words (that are empty and non-existent in light of reading the Bible).

Yes, Hebrews 3 talks about how sin can harden a person’s heart in departing from the living God (i.e. a apostasy or a rejection of God altogether), but that does not mean Ephesians 5:5 is not true in what it says. Ephesians 5:5 is saying if you are doing certain sins, you will not inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God (Meaning you will not be saved). So it’s not just a belief alone in the Savior for salvation or believing in the imaginary Protestant saying that says to believe in the finished work of the cross. You guys just keep making stuff up as if it was the Word of God. This is why you are not believing the truth.

Then in vs. 6 he warns them of the chastisement of God on such sins! Then in vs. 7 he warns not to be partakers in such things.

While the Bible does talk about chastisement of God elsewhere in Scripture, there is no mention of chastisement of God on such sins in verse 6. You just added to the Word of God. The person who is to expose or reprove those who are in their sins is the faithful believer or reader of this letter to the Ephesian brethren. Meaning, believers are to reprove (or expose) those believers who are justifying sin.

Ephesians 5:11-13
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.”

Do you have a perception problem, BH?

It seems you need to look in the mirror, my friend.
For you are unable to see the truth of what Scripture plainly says and you are ADDING your own words to the Word of GOD.
This is dangerous to add words that are not actually there in Scripture. Sure, we can have an interpretation on what a verse or passage says (by adding a commentary in brackets, or expounding upon the text, etc), but to just add words that are not there is another story. In other words, you didn’t quote the Bible and gave an interpretation. You just said this verse says this and this verse says that when these verses don’t even say that.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is regrettable that you so highly object to my point of his referring to Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 as containing "

the two biggest warnings in the Bible against apostasy" (direct quote—his words; not mine) which is not the same as saying "the only two big places in the Bible on apostasy" (direct quote—your words; not mine)

Again, you took issue with Adam saying that Hebrews 6, and Hebrews 10 are the two biggest warnings on apostasy in the Bible. Then you quoted Revelation 14:9-12. You acted like Adam was saying that was the only two warnings on apostasy in the Bible by your reaction because you quoted Revelation 14:9-12 as if he missed something. His point was not exhaustive to ALL of the big warnings on apostasy and you criticized that fact (When that was not the point of his video to cover all of the warnings on apostasy). So your just nitpicking. Your repeating the words here does not undo your criticism (Which was misplaced).

but, nevertheless, not long after that point in the video, I decided not to watch the rest because, with a title like "The End Times Delusion...," I figured it was just another Youtube theological hobby horse outing.

Is that what you really think? That he does not take the subject seriously?
Are you God to judge his heart and life and his thoughts?
What impression within his video gave you this line of thinking?
Or is that just your own thinking or imagination working over time?

But after giving your reply quoted above some more thought (I was unavoidably occupied with other things for a while) I decided to watch the whole thing in order to give it a fair evaluation, and what I came away with is basically the same message I'm perceiving from your posts in this thread—that performance is much more important than faith.

Nowhere in the video is there mentioned a solution to the legitimate problem he correctly observes. And nowhere in the video is it substantiated in a reasonable hermeneutical fashion that "OSAS" or "eternal security" is the end-time delusion.

The Bible teaches that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12), and on the other hand, Jude 1:4 warns us that there were those who turned God's grace into a license for immorality. Your way of thinking (in that we don’t have to obey God or do anything for Him) can easily lead Christians into turning God's grace into a license for immorality (Especially children). This is why the Protestant Belief Alone Salvation belief is evil. It creates men like George Sodini who murdered a bunch of people, and who took his own life all while he thought he was saved by having a belief alone on Jesus as the Savior.

To learn more about George Sodini, check out this article here:

O.S.A.S. – THE WATCHMAN'S CRY

Side Note:

This is where some Protestant Belief Alone Salvationists try to add in some.... buts.
While there are Hyper Grace Christians, the Partial Hyper Grace (the other larger Protestant Group) will say, that men like George were never saved to begin with. But when push comes to shove, when I talked with even Partial Hyper Grace folk (over many years), they believe they can sin daily and be saved or that the prodigal believer is saved. So I really don't see the difference between the two. They may say that a believer who practices sin is not saved, but just how bad is that life of sin compared to their own? They never really say (even by using a third person example).

Some Protestant Belief Alone Salvationists will say you don’t have to confess and forsake sin to be saved (Which runs contrary to Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7), but yet they strive to live correctly. It does not matter if they strive to live correctly if they have a false view of how to deal with sin in regards to salvation. They can lead children into becoming the next George Sodini by their own teaching. I reminded of the words of Jesus where he says, “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.” (Matthew 23:15).

(Continued in next post):

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You see, when a person realizes they are at enmity with God, there are two ways to rectify the problem:

Do better in order to get better;

-or-

Get better in order to do better.

You might agree that the latter is the way to go. I certainly do.

But what might surprise you is that, in reality, every other way finds its basis in the first option—even "'Protestant' (formerly known as 'Perpetual,' speaking of attempts to change the subject of the thread) Belief Alone Salvationism."

Any way of righting oneself with God other than His way is legalism.

There are no historical Old and New Covenants.

There is only unbelief and belief.

"My way" or receiving and abiding/walking.

How does one walk? The same way they received (Colossians 2:6). Paul died daily. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof, Jesus said. The old man must die daily.

The New Covenant is actually the Everlasting Covenant/Gospel.

The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world—this is the New Covenant or Everlasting Gospel.

The law is written on the heart (New Covenant) at Calvary's Cross.

The "Old Covenant" was never meant to save anyone—ever.

A heart transplant is what salvation is about.

People don't like that idea.

You've used the word "Calvary" in 0 of your posts in this thread.

You've used the word "cross" in 33 of your posts, but not in a way that proposes it as an entirely heart-changing experience/solution to the needs of man:

Search Results | Christian Forums @ Christianity Board

"Gospel" appears in 29 posts and it's not much better.

The bulk of this thread presents and stresses a dry, academic, and imbalanced view of faith and works, regardless of intentions.

You might want to back off with the "Protestant"-bashing since it only alienates and there are plenty of non/anti-denoms and Catholics living in sin.

All of these discussions that slice and dice and contrast the grace that forgives with the grace which empowers to righteous living is inherently divisive in nature and never fails to destroy unity.

And we don't have to agree to disagree, we can just plain ol' disagree.
. But
.

While believers are changed in the new birth whereby they have a new heart, with new desires, that does not mean that they are forever changed to the point whereby they are not warned by other faithful believers to do good and to continue in the faith, and God’s grace, etcetera. Paul says to be careful to maintain good works.

Titus 3:8
“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”

Notice what Paul says above here. He says to Titus that he is to affirm CONSTANTLY in that they who believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. Why would Paul say that if their born again experience will just over-ride their free will (i.e. Calvinism) whereby it forces them to do good works in this life or because they are changed? In other words, Paul is writing to born again believers and he desires Titus to AFFIRM CONSTANTLY to those who have believed to be careful to maintain good works. He did not say to affirm constantly the grace of God only and not to do anything and your born again experience will just one day magically work it out for you someday.

We are told in the Bible:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).​

We are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
   
   
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

These things would not exist in Scripture if things are as you say.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

What Protestant Belief Alone Salvationist church is affirming constantly to us believers that we are to be careful to maintain good works according to Titus 3:8?

Zero. All the ones I attended are not doing that. My discussions with other believers online over the past 11 or so years also is the same experience. That’s why we are living in the last days. Men have a form of godliness but they deny the power thereof as 1 Timothy 3:1-9 warns us.

That is why we are already seeing the strong delusion of those who have believed a lie who do not believe the truth and who have pleasure in unrighteousness (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12).

 

[Charlie24]

Again, your false holiness routine (fake sheep skin) is not going to work.
You don’t believe holy living as taught in the Bible (2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:13).

The problem is that you said, I quote.

“Yes, I'm a sinner saved by grace!” Quote by Charlie24.​

Source quote.

This suggests that you are currently a sinner now who is sinning in the present (or who will sin again) and yet you will still be saved by God’s grace (Which is wrong).

You said, I quote:

“In reality I am a sinner, for no one is without sin. But in the eyes of God, by faith in His Son, I am righteous, sinless, and perfect in Christ! Salvation is a free gift to one who believes even though he doesn't deserve it.” Quote by Charlie24.​

Source quote.

This means you are turning God’s grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). But he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).

These sayings are typical of the Protestant Belief Alone Salvationist beliefs.

Therefore…

Protestant Belief Alone Salvationists are…

#1. Not believing the truth
(i.e. They are not believing the truth properly in dealing with sin and salvation;
And, they believe in another Jesus who allows them to justify their sin).
Thus, they are not believing the correct truth.

#2. Having pleasure in unrighteousness (Note: While Protestant Belief Alone Salvationists tell me they hate their sin and they don’t like doing it, this simply is a cover story that is false because people sin for the pure and simple fact that they find it pleasurable. Nobody is going to sin if they don’t take some kind of enjoyment or pleasure in it on some level). “By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;” (Hebrews 11:24-25).



No. It does not say that. You are twisting Scripture. It simply says, “For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.” (Ephesians 5:5).

Paul says I am not to let any man deceive me on this point with vain [empty] words.

I believe Paul’s words here, and not your words (that are empty and non-existent in light of reading the Bible).

Yes, Hebrews 3 talks about how sin can harden a person’s heart in departing from the living God (i.e. a apostasy or a rejection of God altogether), but that does not mean Ephesians 5:5 is not true in what it says. Ephesians 5:5 is saying if you are doing certain sins, you will not inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God (Meaning you will not be saved). So it’s not just a belief alone in the Savior for salvation or believing in the imaginary Protestant saying that says to believe in the finished work of the cross. You guys just keep making stuff up as if it was the Word of God. This is why you are not believing the truth.



While the Bible does talk about chastisement of God elsewhere in Scripture, there is no mention of chastisement of God on such sins in verse 6. You just added to the Word of God. The person who is to expose or reprove those who are in their sins is the faithful believer or reader of this letter to the Ephesian brethren. Meaning, believers are to reprove (or expose) those believers who are justifying sin.

Ephesians 5:11-13
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.”



It seems you need to look in the mirror, my friend.
For you are unable to see the truth of what Scripture plainly says and you are ADDING your own words to the Word of GOD.
This is dangerous to add words that are not actually there in Scripture. Sure, we can have an interpretation on what a verse or passage says (by adding a commentary in brackets, or expounding upon the text, etc), but to just add words that are not there is another story. In other words, you didn’t quote the Bible and gave an interpretation. You just said this verse says this and this verse says that when these verses don’t even say that.

BH, let me show you how I understand Ephesians 5:5-7.

"For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Be not ye therefore partakers with them."

I'm going though through this and explain what is see.

"For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

Paul is speaking to believers here, telling them these are the things the unbelievers will do, and they will not inherit the kingdom of God. Now follow me on this!

"Let no man deceive you with vain words:"

Don't let these people take you from your faith in the Cross.

"for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience."

Two things here to understand, what is the wrath of God/ Who are the children of disobedience?

The wrath of God is directed only to the unbelievers, His chastisement/discipline is directed to the believer.

Who are the children of disobedience? Lets go to Eph. 2:2.

"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

Do you see that BH? The "children of disobedience" that Paul is talking about are the unbelievers, those who walk after the course of this world. He makes it clear that all believers have in the past have walked in this disobedience according to their unbelief.

Now let's go back to Eph. 5:6.

"Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience."

The "children of disobedience" are the ones who the wrath of God will fall, the unbelievers, not the believers.

The wrath of God will not fall on the believer for those sins, the chastisement of God will fall on them to bring them back in line.

Do you see what I'm saying?

Paul is telling them to hang on to your faith in Christ, don't believe these fools who are doomed to God's wrath, don't have anything to do with them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

BH, let me show you how I understand Ephesians 5:5-7.

"For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Be not ye therefore partakers with them."

I'm going though through this and explain what is see.

"For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

Paul is speaking to believers here, telling them these are the things the unbelievers will do, and they will not inherit the kingdom of God. Now follow me on this!

"Let no man deceive you with vain words:"

Don't let these people take you from your faith in the Cross.

"for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience."

Two things here to understand, what is the wrath of God/ Who are the children of disobedience?

The wrath of God is directed only to the unbelievers, His chastisement/discipline is directed to the believer.

Who are the children of disobedience? Lets go to Eph. 2:2.

"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

Do you see that BH? The "children of disobedience" that Paul is talking about are the unbelievers, those who walk after the course of this world. He makes it clear that all believers have in the past have walked in this disobedience according to their unbelief.

Now let's go back to Eph. 5:6.

"Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience."

The "children of disobedience" are the ones who the wrath of God will fall, the unbelievers, not the believers.

The wrath of God will not fall on the believer for those sins, the chastisement of God will fall on them to bring them back in line.

Do you see what I'm saying?

Paul is telling them to hang on to your faith in Christ, don't believe these fools who are doomed to God's wrath, don't have anything to do with them.

No. Your not getting it. Paul would not warn us about falling into being a child of disobedience if it was not possible. He is not saying that you will become an unbeliever whereby it condemns you. He simply condemns those who do those evil things. Nowhere do those who sin are just referring to unbelievers. Children of disobedience are those who justify sin (Whether they be an unbeliever or a believer who justifies sin). Paul was not exclusively talking to being an unbeliever only. Paul does not mention how believers can do evil things and yet inherit the Kingdom of God. Paul is not warning others about the error of Universalism.

Your belief says you are saved even in sin. This is being a child of disobedience because 1 John 1:9 says you have to confess sin to be forgiven of sin, and 1 John 1:7 says you have to walk in the light (love your brother) to have the blood of Jesus cleanse you from all sin. Proverbs 18:13 says you have to confess and forsake sin to have mercy. You don't believe that.

Oh, and again chastisement is not for the Belief Alone Salvationist because they think they can sin and still be saved. The goal of chastisement is to get you to stop sinning and not for you to justify the idea that you can sin and still be saved.

Side Note:

I will address your post at a later time in more detail.

 

[Charlie24]

No. Your not getting it. Paul would not warn us about falling into being a child of disobedience if it was not possible. He is not saying that you will become an unbeliever whereby it condemns you. He simply condemns those who do those evil things. Nowhere do those who sin are just referring to unbelievers. Children of disobedience are those who justify sin (Whether they be an unbeliever or a believer who justifies sin). Paul was not exclusively talking to being an unbeliever only. Paul does not mention how believers can do evil things and yet inherit the Kingdom of God. Paul is not warning others about the error of Universalism.

Your belief says you are saved even in sin. This is being a child of disobedience because 1 John 1:9 says you have to confess sin to be forgiven of sin, and 1 John 1:7 says you have to walk in the light (love your brother) to have the blood of Jesus cleanse you from all sin. Proverbs 18:13 says you have to confess and forsake sin to have mercy. You don't believe that.

Oh, and again chastisement is not for the Belief Alone Salvationist because they think they can sin and still be saved. The goal of chastisement is to get you to stop sinning and not for you to justify the idea that you can sin and still be saved.

Side Note:

I will address your post at a later time in more detail.

If that's what you want to believe it's ok with me!

If we have to stop sinning altogether to enter heaven, none of us will make it!

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:2-5, Titus 3:5, Romans 11:6 are dealing with Initial Salvation if you were to read the context of those chapters. We did nothing worthy of any merit on our part to be grafted on to the vine. But once we are grafted on to the vine, or we were drafted onto God's team, we then have to obey our Master (i.e. the Lord Jesus) as a part of remaining on the team or as a part of remaining attached to the vine.

Jesus says,

“I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:5-6).​

“And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).​

John the baptist says,

“And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (John 3:10).​

James says,

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

“You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.” (James 2:24) (BLB).

“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).​

Today, doing good for salvation after being saved by God's grace is mocked even though the Bible teaches it.

The apostle Paul says,

“Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:22).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel,...” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.” (1 Corinthians 9:27).​

Jesus says,

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matthew 7:22-23).​

The Bible's last chapter states:

“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:14-15).

We do not need to labor to retain our salvation.
The good work we do as Christians is in service to the kingdom as God leads us. Not so that we can remain part of it.

Your studies would be improved I think if you learned parables are not literal narratives.
Vines and fig trees have presence all through the Bible.

Jesus talking about unfruitful vines being cut off and thrown into the fire isn't about Christians going to hell because they don't work to earn salvation.

We are saved eternally. We will never lose that. Jesus said so.
And that is eternal truth.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

BH, let me show you how I understand Ephesians 5:5-7.

"For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Be not ye therefore partakers with them."

I'm going though through this and explain what is see.

"For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

Paul is speaking to believers here, telling them these are the things the unbelievers will do, and they will not inherit the kingdom of God. Now follow me on this!

"Let no man deceive you with vain words:"

Don't let these people take you from your faith in the Cross.

"for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience."

Two things here to understand, what is the wrath of God/ Who are the children of disobedience?

The wrath of God is directed only to the unbelievers, His chastisement/discipline is directed to the believer.

Who are the children of disobedience? Lets go to Eph. 2:2.

"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

Do you see that BH? The "children of disobedience" that Paul is talking about are the unbelievers, those who walk after the course of this world. He makes it clear that all believers have in the past have walked in this disobedience according to their unbelief.

Now let's go back to Eph. 5:6.

"Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience."

The "children of disobedience" are the ones who the wrath of God will fall, the unbelievers, not the believers.

The wrath of God will not fall on the believer for those sins, the chastisement of God will fall on them to bring them back in line.

Do you see what I'm saying?

Paul is telling them to hang on to your faith in Christ, don't believe these fools who are doomed to God's wrath, don't have anything to do with them.

Yes. Children of disobedience is in reference to unbelievers. That would be both those who never came to the faith, and those believers who have went back to the world sinning or those believers who never gave up their sin since they claimed to have accept Christ as their Savior. For in Ephesians 5:3, Paul is saying that believers can also be named among being involved in fornication, uncleanness, covetousness because he says, “But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;”

Paul is referring to believers in living immoral here. He says let it not be once named among you as becometh saints (or as other translations say: as is proper or fitting among saints).

Paul says, “for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.” (Ephesians 5:6-7). So Paul is saying we can be partakers with them (the unbelievers). Thus… making a believer a child of disobedience (unbeliever) again. Justifying sin is unbelief. You have stated that you are a sinner (present tense) saved by God’s grace. This is unbelief because that is justifying sin like unbelievers. You have unbelief in what God’s Word says in regards to sin in how it can destroy your soul, and how to deal with sin properly (Which is by confessing and forsaking sin).

As for chastisement: We’ve already been over this point before and you keep ignoring it. Chastisement is not for those who think they can sin and still be saved or who think they are sinners saved by God’s grace. Chastisement is for the believer who knows how to properly deal with sin and realizes sin can destroy their soul. If they get off the path for a time, chastisement will get them back on the right path again (See: Luke 15:11-32) (James 5:19-20). OSAS and sin and still be saved types are not even on the right path to begin with because they don’t believe sin can destroy their soul. They think all their future sin is paid for which gives them a license to sin on some level or to treat sin no more dangerous than a fluffy kitten when it comes to entering the Kingdom.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes. Children of disobedience is in reference to unbelievers. That would be both those who never came to the faith, and those believers who have went back to the world sinning or those believers who never gave up their sin since they claimed to have accept Christ as their Savior. For in Ephesians 5:3, Paul is saying that believers can also be named among being involved in fornication, uncleanness, covetousness because he says, “But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;”

Paul is referring to believers in living immoral here. He says let it not be once named among you as becometh saints (or as other translations say: as is proper or fitting among saints).

Paul says, “for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.” (Ephesians 5:6-7). So Paul is saying we can be partakers with them (the unbelievers). Thus… making a believer a child of disobedience (unbeliever) again. Justifying sin is unbelief. You have stated that you are a sinner (present tense) saved by God’s grace. This is unbelief because that is justifying sin like unbelievers. You have unbelief in what God’s Word says in regards to sin in how it can destroy your soul, and how to deal with sin properly (Which is by confessing and forsaking sin).

As for chastisement: We’ve already been over this point before and you keep ignoring it. Chastisement is not for those who think they can sin and still be saved or who think they are sinners saved by God’s grace. Chastisement is for the believer who knows how to properly deal with sin and realizes sin can destroy their soul. If they get off the path for a time, chastisement will get them back on the right path again (See: Luke 15:11-32) (James 5:19-20). OSAS and sin and still be saved types are not even on the right path to begin with because they don’t believe sin can destroy their soul. They think all their future sin is paid for giving them a license to sin on some level or to treat sin no more dangerous than a fluffy kitten when it comes to our souls right standing with God.

There is no doubt of the abusers of OSAS, but you lump the abusers and those who are not abusing in the same lump.

Do you think that is fair? Do you believe all the OSAS believers are abusing God's grace?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There is no doubt of the abusers of OSAS, but you lump the abusers and those who are not abusing in the same lump.

Do you think that is fair? Do you believe all the OSAS believers are abusing God's grace?

You yourself admitted that you are a sinner (present tense) saved by God’s grace. You said in reality you are sinner (present tense) and by some flip of insanity you believe you are righteous in the eyes of God by simply having faith in the Son of God. That’s an abuse of God’s grace right there. So I am not buying that your Partial Hyper Grace sales pitch. It is no different than Hyper Grace because of these similar kind of statements that you have already made that justifies sin under God’s grace (Which Jude 1:4 warns us about).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We do not need to labor to retain our salvation.
The good work we do as Christians is in service to the kingdom as God leads us. Not so that we can remain part of it.

Your studies would be improved I think if you learned parables are not literal narratives.
Vines and fig trees have presence all through the Bible.

Jesus talking about unfruitful vines being cut off and thrown into the fire isn't about Christians going to hell because they don't work to earn salvation.

We are saved eternally. We will never lose that. Jesus said so.
And that is eternal truth.

Works For Salvation Verses & Passages
(After We are Saved By God’s Grace):

1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24).
   
   
2. “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).
   
   
3. 10 “For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:10, and Titus 1:16).
   
   
4. “And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).
   
   
5. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).
   
   
6. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
   
   
7. “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee ? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee ? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:34-46).
   
   
8. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).
   
   
9. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).
   
   
10. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:5-6).
    
    
11. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).
    
    
12. “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:” (Hebrews 12:14).
    
    
13. “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).
    
    
14. “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).
    
    
15. “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,…” (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Oh, and here is a…

Bonus verse & passage:

#16. “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” (1 Timothy 5:8).

#17. “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:7-9).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We do not need to labor to retain our salvation.

Yes you do.

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:7-9).

Verse 7 starts off saying right away…. “Be not deceived.” Again, I believe this warning to be not deceived ties into the strong delusion mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12. Paul says… “Be not deceived… whatsoever a man sows…that shall he also reap.”

Verse 8 says he that sows to the flesh shall reap corruption. The word “flesh” here is in context to “sin” because Galatians 5:19 says, “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness,…” etcetera. This corruption is contrasted with eternal life so this corruption is not a good end for somebody.

For verse 8 continues to say that he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap “life everlasting.” “Life everlasting” (eternal life) is a phrase in the Bible for salvation (or living forever with God). So what is this sowing to the Spirit? Well, in verse 9 it gives us the definition of what sowing to the Spirit looks like.

Verse 9 (Describing the sowing to the Spirit) says, “well doing” (Which are good deeds or good works). We are told in verse 9 that we should not be weary in well doing for in due season will shall reap if we faint not. Meaning we will reap everlasting life by well doing (good works) if we faint not (if we do not fail to continue in our faith in doing good). So this passage is saying that works is a part of our salvation. There really is no other way to read this passage unless somebody has an agenda to change it because they don’t like what it says plainly

The good work we do as Christians is in service to the kingdom as God leads us. Not so that we can remain part of it.

1 Timothy 5:8 says if any provide not for his own (especially of those of your own household) they have denied the faith and are worse than an infidel (unbeliever). So you have to do this good work in providing for your own or you can deny the faith. Sounds like this good work saves to me.

Your studies would be improved I think if you learned parables are not literal narratives. Vines and fig trees have presence all through the Bible.

No. John the Baptist said a similar thing to the Jews (calling them a generation of vipers).

Luke 3:7-9
7 “Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.”

Why would John the Baptist warn us about how the axe is laid to the root of the tree and then he says that we must bring forth fruits worthy of repentance? This sound like to me that if we don’t take action to do good works that are truly worthy to God, then we will be chopped down.

Jesus talking about unfruitful vines being cut off and thrown into the fire isn't about Christians going to hell because they don't work to earn salvation.

Yes, it is because John the Baptist said a similar thing and he talked about a wrath to come when he spoke with the Jews who did not repent.

We are saved eternally. We will never lose that. Jesus said so.
And that is eternal truth.

You have to look at the whole counsel of God’s Word and not isolate passages or verse your prefer to see from a wrong Protestant Belief Alone Salvationist viewpoint.

Jesus also says,
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51).

 

[Charlie24]

You yourself admitted that you are a sinner (present tense) saved by God’s grace. You said in reality you are sinner (present tense) and by some flip of insanity you believe you are righteous in the eyes of God by simply having faith in the Son of God. That’s an abuse of God’s grace right there. So I am not buying that your Partial Hyper Grace sales pitch. It is no different than Hyper Grace because of these similar kind of statements that you have already made that justifies sin under God’s grace (Which Jude 1:4 warns us about).

You're forgetting something, BH, I will use myself as an example of the difference in the abusers and those who are not.

When I said yes to Christ I came to the point that I realized who I am, I'm a sinner in need of a Saviour. That is what that message revealed to me sitting in that pew that Sunday morning. I can still hear that preacher saying, "He was nailed to that tree for yours sins, the just for the unjust."

A change took place in me that day! I took on a whole new view of my life, sin became a hatred, I learned that I despised it. I now know that my sin is the reason Christ came to this earth and suffered a horrible death, He took my place on that Cross. The Holy Spirit that morning burned that truth in my heart. I could feel my body trembling, the tears falling, my chest felt it was exploding.

I am as sinner saved by Grace! Just as Paul said he was the chief of sinners, not worthy to be called an Apostle of Christ, because he persecuted the Church of Christ. I still consider myself a sinner not worthy of God's grace, but by faith in Christ I am perfect in the sight of God. As Paul said, we are in Christ, and when He looks at us He sees the perfection of Christ in us through faith. But yet I'm not perfect.

Do you think I want to sin, that I have no regard for my sin, that when I realize I have sinned that remorse eats me alive.

I'm a born-again believer in Christ, but that does not make me perfect, that does not mean I can't fail from time to time.

The abuser who says He is born-again but has no regard for his sin, who thinks he can go and do whatever he wants in sin with this world and is still going to heaven has never experienced the change in the heart that I have described. He is deceived!

Even the worst of sinners who outright reject Christ will tell you this person is not who he says he is!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You're forgetting something, BH, I will use myself as an example of the difference in the abusers and those who are not.

Again, justifying a little bit of sin is no different than justifying lots of sin.
Telling others you are a sinner (present tense) saved by God’s grace shows that you have not really changed and it can lead others (even children) to treat God’s grace as a license to sin. In fact, that’s what your view of grace does actually. Your view of grace is not in line with Titus 2:11-12 that says God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Your view of grace denies Paul’s words when he says, shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? God forbid. (Romans 6:1-2). But I am sure you have clever ways to deny these verses in God’s Word because you don’t like what they say plainly. Therein is the problem that you will face come judgment day. God will ask you why you do not just believe His word.

When I said yes to Christ I came to the point that I realized who I am, I'm a sinner in need of a Saviour. That is what that message revealed to me sitting in that pew that Sunday morning. I can still hear that preacher saying, "He was nailed to that tree for yours sins, the just for the unjust."

Your wrong experience by a false preacher is not the Word of God. Your experience runs contrary to what that Bible verses he loosely referenced actually means.

That preacher no doubt was loosely referencing these verses.

Acts of the Apostles 5:30
“The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.”

Galatians 3:13
“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:”

1 Peter 3:18
“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:”

The problem this false preacher did not inform you of is that the Law that is being spoken about in Galatians 3:13 is the 613 laws of Moses. Remember, Galatians 4:10-11 says, “Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.” In Galatians 2:3, Paul says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:” So Paul was referencing the Old Law and not the Laws of Christ. But why? Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”.

As for 1 Peter 3:18:

It’s talking about the Provisional Atonement (Whereby it is talking about what was taking place when Christ’s died for all men’s sins, and then when He was risen). For it talks about in verse 19-20 about how he went and preached to the spirits in prison.

1 Peter 3:15-20

15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;
16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed.
17 For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient,…”​

Christ dying for the sins of the whole world (even while they were sinful)….

(a) Does not mean they are saved even if they reject Him as Savior (Which would be a sin - 1 John 3:23), and
(b) Does not mean they are saved if they believe in Jesus and continue in their sins in some way. For that would be turning God’s grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4).​

So when that false preacher loosely quoted 1 Peter 3:18, he was quoting it out of context to what it was actually saying.

So I am sorry to inform you, but your coming to Christ (with your thinking that you can remain unjust in some way) is simply a false conversion. You did not truly come to the real Jesus Christ of the Bible if you started off thinking this way.

For when I first accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior back in 1992, justifying sin was not even remotely in my mindset. I was seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus over my past life of sin, and I wanted to do those things that pleased Him. The idea that I could remain unjust still did not even enter my mind as a possibility. Why? Because he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8).

Anyways, when I accepted Jesus as my Savior, it was like a light went on inside of me, and I had a love, joy, and peace that I had never known before. When I attended a prayer group, they could not help but to notice my passion and fire for the Lord.

I am as sinner saved by Grace! Just as Paul said he was the chief of sinners,

You guys really have a fine art of ripping verses out of context.

If you were to read verses 13, and 14, Paul is speaking of his past life of sin.

“Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did itignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.” (1 Timothy 1:13-15).

For it is not uncommon for people today to even to talk about a past experience in the present tense.
Paul was the chief of sinners in the sense that he persecuted the church of God. It does not mean he is still continuing to do that sin after coming to Christ.

not worthy to be called an Apostle of Christ, because he persecuted the Church of Christ. I still consider myself a sinner not worthy of God's grace, but by faith in Christ I am perfect in the sight of God. As Paul said, we are in Christ, and when He looks at us He sees the perfection of Christ in us through faith. But yet I'm not perfect.

Even you will admit the words of the context, but you don’t really acknowledge what it actually means. That’s scary.

Do you think I want to sin, that I have no regard for my sin, that when I realize I have sinned that remorse eats me alive.

Why would it? Jesus paid for your future sin, and so you never have to worry about sin ever destroying your soul again. So you can just sin as much as you like or not worry about it all that much. Just live for yourself and your sin on occasion and Jesus is just a second thought in your life. You become the master and not Jesus.

I'm a born-again believer in Christ, but that does not make me perfect, that does not mean I can't fail from time to time.

It does not matter if you live perfectly. The fact that you teach that you can sin and still be saved disqualifies you to enter the Kingdom of God because you can lead children to be a two fold child of hell more than you are. Why? Because they got a license to sin. No sin can separate them from Christ and so that gives them a license to sin on some level.

The abuser who says He is born-again but has no regard for his sin, who thinks he can go and do whatever he wants in sin with this world and is still going to heaven has never experienced the change in the heart that I have described. He is deceived!

Somehow you just don’t see yourself in abusing grace but that’s what your belief is doing. Justifying a little bit of sin under God’s grace is no different than justifying lots of sin. Your not dealing with sin properly by confessing and forsaking sin. You believe future sin is forgiven you and so there is no real need to treat sin as the Bible does in that it can destroy your soul or the souls of others. You ignore this truth and therein lies the deception or the strong delusion that is going on today.

Even the worst of sinners who outright reject Christ will tell you this person is not who he says he is!

At the end of the day we must accept the Bible for what it says. You simply don’t accept the words of Jesus on his warning against how sin can destroy your soul (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62). You are ignore Paul’s warning on how sin can cause you to not inherit the Kingdom of God in Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:5-6, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, etcetera. You ignore Paul’s warning that to not provide for your own is to deny the faith, and to be worse than an infidel (unbeliever) (1 Timothy 5:8). But if your future sins are paid for by the deceptions of your Protestant teachers, then go ahead and believe their lies over believing the truth of God’s Word (if that gives you comfort). But just know: That comfort is a false hope. Just know. What you believe is not in line with the Bible.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Anyways, may God bless you all (even if we disagree strongly on Scripture).

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Yes you do.

No, we don't.

I should have qualified my former observations regarding the fact Christians do not work to retain God's free irrevocable gifts of faith and salvation.

Which is absolutely true.

Unless someone believes in the Catholic church.

Therefore, you are correct.
Catholics have to work to stay in the grace of the church .