The Problems of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.

[Charlie24]

1 Timothy 6:3-4 basically says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud, and he knows nothing. Being proud is the opposite of humility. Acts of the Apostles 3:23 says that if any man who does not hear that prophet (i.e. Jesus) will be destroyed. Meaning, if we do not obey the commands of Jesus, we will go to hell and not make it into God’s Kingdom.



Jesus humbled himself when he was obedient unto death. We are to have the same like mind as Christ did on this. See Philippians 2:5-8.

Yes, we are to have the mind of Christ, He is our example.

And what was in the mind of Christ in His humanity as we are?

'I do always the things that please my Father."

How did He please the Father?

By surrendering Himself totally to the will of the Father and being lead by the Holy Spirit.

You know, BH, Christ didn't know what was around the next corner until He was told by the Holy Spirit.

When the woman that said, I will be healed if I can but touch His garment, and she was, them Christ turned and said, who touched me? He actually didn't know! That's how human He was.

He allowed the Holy Spirit to guide Him in total surrender to the will of the Father. That is our example of how to please God!

 

[Radrook]

The devil is called a murderer because he caused Adam and Eve's death via his lying.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You sure like to pick on Protestants. So do Roman Catholics.

I disagree strongly with Catholicism. So your barking up the wrong tree in trying to associate me with them.

Eisegesis.

It goes beyond that. Circumcision salvationism is an erroneous Roman Catholic argument.

Just because you say so, does not make it true.

The Bible teaches that Paul was fighting against Circumcision Salvationism:

1. Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
   
   
2. Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
   
   
3. Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
   
   
4. Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”
   
   
5. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)
   
   
6. Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
   
   
7. Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
   
   
8. Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”
   
   
9. Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

At the Jerusalem council, the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism was addressed:

1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
   
   
2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
   
   
3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

For if a person thought they had to be circumcised to be initially saved, they would be making a Law or work the entrance gate and foundation of their salvation and not God’s grace through faith in Christ.

Circumcision is mentioned because the Jews placed a great emphasis on circumcision, yet in Romans 3:27-28, Paul goes on to say - Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law which covers much more and is not merely limited to circumcision.

Pay attention really carefully here.

Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew?
or what profit is there of circumcision?”

Roman Catholics use this same circumcision argument in an attempt to "get around" the truth that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works in general. They teach saved by "these" works (good works/works of faith etc..) and just not "those" works (works of the law with a heavy emphasis on circumcision) but that argument is bogus.

Guilt by association is not always true. Catholics believe in the Trinity, but that does not invalidate the teaching of the Trinity. Anyways, I just provided the context showing you that Circumcision Salvationism is the topic of discussion and it was in regards to one’s Initial Salvation (and not Perpetual Belief Alone-ism).

Once again, circumcision is mentioned because the Jews placed a great emphasis on circumcision, yet in Romans 4:5-6, Paul clearly states - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. *Works (plural) which is not merely limited to circumcision.

Again, the Jews placed a great emphasis on circumcision for salvation, just like certain people today place a great emphasis on water baptism for salvation, yet that is not they only thing they teach is necessary for salvation. Open your eyes.

Not a big eye opener at all. It's no secret that the Jews placed a great emphasis on circumcision for salvation, "the deeds of the law/works" goes beyond mere circumcision.

In our Initial Salvation this would be true. Water baptism or circumcision or any kind of other work cannot save us when we are first saved by God’s grace through faith in Jesus as our Savior and or the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. But you fail to read the context to see that Paul was referring to Initial Salvation and he was not referring to the continued state of the believer whereby they could be unfruitful, and live in sin and be saved by a belief alone.

The unprofitable servant will be cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30). Vain deceivers deny God by being reprobate unto every good work (Titus 1:16). Obviously those who deny God are not saved. So one needs to eventually have works in order to be saved. To argue otherwise means you are arguing for a believer to live out their faith without works in order to be saved by a belief alone in Jesus.

To be continued (Lord willing):

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, we are to have the mind of Christ, He is our example.

And what was in the mind of Christ in His humanity as we are?

'I do always the things that please my Father."

How did He please the Father?

By surrendering Himself totally to the will of the Father and being lead by the Holy Spirit.

You know, BH, Christ didn't know what was around the next corner until He was told by the Holy Spirit.

When the woman that said, I will be healed if I can but touch His garment, and she was, them Christ turned and said, who touched me? He actually didn't know! That's how human He was.

He allowed the Holy Spirit to guide Him in total surrender to the will of the Father. That is our example of how to please God!

Not sure what this has to do with your statements that says you are a sinner (present tense) saved by God’s grace.
It sounds like you are saying these things as a cover (sheep’s clothing) in order to hide your true belief that justifies darkness and evil.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not at all. A baby can only have milk (and or formula) when they first come into this world and they cannot have solid foods like meat. Then they can grow and mature to be able to eat meat. It’s the same with the Bible. There is the milk of the Word and the meat of the Word. The milk of the Word is being saved by God’s grace and it is appreciating the grace and love Jesus has shown towards us over our past life of sin. This can motivate us to love like it did for the woman who could not stop kissing Jesus’ feet. For he that has been forgiven little loves little. The Jews were forgiven little because they only sought forgiveness of certain sins with God and not all of their sins. Hence, why they loved little. Hebrews 5:13 says, “For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.”

The meat of the Word is to be able to discern between good and evil (Which many in the Christian camps today simply are unable to recognize). Sure, they may see murder, rape, theft, etcetera as not being characterized of a true believer, but they don’t see other sins as condemning the believer (even though the Bible says that these sins will condemn them; Like being self seeking). Hebrews 5:14 says, “But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”

In other words, you over simplify salvation to a neat clever package that has to fit into all points in time. Being drafted on to God’s team does not mean one’s later status is the same with God at a later point in time if they don’t obey their Master (Whereby they can be cut from the team). For example: Most sports team draft a person on to a team to based on their performance. But this is not so with how God drafts his team. God picks murderers, drunkards, prostitutes, etcetera. But when they come to God’s grace, they reform and change. So if their version of God’s grace is not the one found in Titus 2:11-12 that says God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and to live righteously and godly in this present world, then they have the wrong grace. They have an unbiblical and unholy grace that is found only in the imaginations of men so as to justify their sin. Jude 1:4 says God’s grace is not a license for immorality. A coach for a sports could draft somebody not based on their performance but if that team member does not eventually perform, he will be cut from the team. So it is with God. God is not looking for devils to do his will. God is looking for servants who will offer their bodies as a living sacrifice that is their reasonable service (Romans 12:1).

You have to ignore the context of what Paul was talking about. Paul clearly each time refers to our Initial Salvation when talking about being saved by God’s grace without works (i.e. the works of the 613 Laws of Moses or by first being saved by circumcision). You ignore the words of context that talk about Initial Salvation (like Ephesians 2:1 in being quickened, and Ephesians 2:8 in that being saved is like the receiving of a gift), and you ignore the words that point about how Paul also was fighting against the heresy of being circumcised first in order to be initially saved (Which was the same heresy exposed at the Jerusalem council - See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, and then see Galatians 5:2). So your belief does not take into account time in regards to a believer’s salvation. There are even Provisional Atonement Salvation verses in the Bible. These verses are dealing with how Christ paid the price for mankind BUT you have to make the decision to accept Christ in order for the Atonement to be applied to your life. An example of a Provisional Atonement verse would be John 1:29 that says, “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”. Now, unless you are a Universalist, this verse is not saying that all of mankind is forgiven. So you have to rightly divide this salvation verse with another aspect of salvation (Which is being saved by God’s grace in our Initial Salvation by faith without works). It’s the same with Sanctification. If you were to read 2 Thessalonians 2:13 it is telling you the believer that God has chosen us to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth. Romans 8:13 says if you live after the flesh (sin), you will die, but if you put to death the misdeeds of the body (sin) by the Spirit, you will live (live eternally).

You are so confused.

God can;t tell us due to our sin and our failure to live up to his guideline and our sin is so deep that we are totally unable to save ourselves. and we must repent and become poor in spirit (spiritually bankrupt) and call on him for salvation.

Then change and say even though we still can;t meet his requirement. We must then work real hard to try our best to do just that. or else he will not save us.

Again, you cause him to counter himself.

Paul said if it is of grace it is no longer of works. otherwise grace is no longer grace.

It can only be one or the other my friend. to teach anything else is to teach a different gospel.

Instead of trying to pull disciples for yourself and follow you to anathema. Try for once in your life to repent and give it all to Jesus.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It's called humility, BH. Humbling yourself before the Almighty.

If you want help from God, and want to get His attention, that is how you do it!

Sadly, the proud will not only never admit they are proud. they will lie and decieve themselves and convince themselves that they are humble

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Once again, circumcision is mentioned because the Jews placed a great emphasis on circumcision, yet in Romans 4:5-6, Paul clearly states - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. *Works (plural) which is not merely limited to circumcision.

Pay closer attention to Romans 4:9-12. The order of belief vs. circumcision was the focus. Abraham first believed God before circumcision (a work). So the idea here is that Abraham was Initially Saved by faith alone before he was circumcised which was a work. But even circumcision back then was a salvation issue.

“And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.” (Genesis 17:14).

In other words, faith alone saved Abraham in his Initial Salvation, but Abraham had to later be circumcised as a part of his faith in God. If Abraham refused to be circumcised, then he would be cut off from his people and he would have broken God’s covenant. So this is proof that you need to do something as a part of your faith later on to enter God’s Kingdom.

Granted, we are not under the Old Covenant anymore. So we don’t have to be circumcised. But the point here is that Abraham had to later do something in his faith after he was saved by faith alone beforehand.

To be continued (Lord willing):

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are so confused.

God can;t tell us due to our sin and our failure to live up to his guideline and our sin is so deep that we are totally unable to save ourselves. and we must repent and become poor in spirit (spiritually bankrupt) and call on him for salvation.

I believe we cannot save ourselves in our Initial Salvation. We must be saved by God’s grace without works in our Initial Salvation.
Water baptism or circumcision is not necessary to be Initially Saved. No works required in our Initial Salvation. Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Sav-ED). Past tense. But we are also told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

Then change and say even though we still can;t meet his requirement. We must then work real hard to try our best to do just that. or else he will not save us.

So you believe in works or holy living for salvation?

Again, you cause him to counter himself.

Paul said if it is of grace it is no longer of works. otherwise grace is no longer grace.

If Romans 11:6 was the only verse in the Bible, you might be correct or on to something.
But there are many warnings in the Bible against how sin and being unfruitful can condemn our soul spiritually (Unless we change course and we confess and forsake our sins) (See: Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8, Revelation 22:14-15 in the KJB). Living holy is essential otherwise we will not see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). So obviously Paul is referring to something else besides works in general.
Paul never said that the works of Christ He commanded us to do is included here. So when I read Romans 11:6 I see this:

(a) Talking about the works of the Law of Moses.
(b) Talking about Initial Salvation by God’s grace through faith without works (i.e. the 1st aspect of salvation).

The context is referring to the Jew who needed to be Initially Saved by God’s grace through in the Messiah (Jesus Christ).
The Jews were caught up in Law ALONE Salvationism via by the Law of Moses.

It can only be one or the other my friend. to teach anything else is to teach a different gospel.

I believe the gospel is only 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and nothing else. See my write up here to learn more (even though the Bible appears to talk about the gospel as referring to something different than 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). The gospel is believing that Christ died for our sins, he was buried, and risen the third day. It’s nothing more than that. However, even the apostle Paul says that God has chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (Which is a call of the gospel) (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). Again, this Sanctification is not the gospel or good news but it is a CALL of the gospel.

Instead of trying to pull disciples for yourself and follow you to anathema.

I am not really interested in making disciples after myself. I am only looking to please God in this life and to follow what His Word says (Which many Protestants ignore). I do want fellowship with more like minded Christians but we are living in the last days and so that should not be any surprise that I cannot find too many Christians who don’t want to justify sin these days.

Try for once in your life to repent and give it all to Jesus.

I already sought forgiveness of my sins with Jesus in 1992.
Giving one’s life to Jesus does not appear to align with the sin and still be saved Protestant belief that is popular these days.
Even you appear to be against living holy as a part of entering God’s Kingdom at times. So you are not consistent in your standard of morality if that is the case. For you disregard the secondary aspect of living holy as a part of God’s plan of salvation according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and Romans 8:13.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sadly, the proud will not only never admit they are proud. they will lie and decieve themselves and convince themselves that they are humble

I can only encourage you to prayerfully read over and over 1 Timothy 6:3-4 on being proud. It says that any man who does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ, and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. So if you are not for obeying Jesus, and His words or if you are not for godliness, then you are proud according to Paul. I did not say it. Paul did.

In Luke 10, we learn that Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life. Jesus did not rebuke the lawyer and tell him he was wrong and that he should just trust in the finished work of the cross. Many of you are saying that obeying God to enter life is evil or wrong, or against God. Yet, Jesus Himself taught this. This is what is scary about what Protestants believe. They cannot even see what their own Bible says.

 

[mailmandan]

You guys love adding the word “practice” to sin so you can feel good about your Un-practiced part-time sin.

Typical straw man argument.

Here’s a question for you un-practicing sinners:

A murderer has no eternal life abiding in him.

What makes one a “murderer”?

One murder?

Or many murders by one who “practices” murder?

“…no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.” (1 John 3:15)

It's not about how many murders, but the condition of your heart.

Now how about a little context. 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous. 13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Love for the brethren is the demonstrative evidence that we are born of God. Not only physically murdering your brother, but also hating your brother is the demonstrative evidence of being a child of the devil/of the wicked one and classifies you as a murderer.

Elsewhere in 1 John 4:7-8, we read - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I believe we cannot save ourselves in our Initial Salvation. We must be saved by God’s grace without works in our Initial Salvation.
Water baptism or circumcision is not necessary to be Initially Saved. No works required in our Initial Salvation. Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Sav-ED). Past tense. But we are also told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).



So you believe in works or holy living for salvation?



If Romans 11:6 was the only verse in the Bible, you might be correct or on to something.
But there are many warnings in the Bible against how sin and being unfruitful can condemn our soul spiritually (Unless we change course and we confess and forsake our sins) (See: Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8, Revelation 22:14-15 in the KJB). Living holy is essential otherwise we will not see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). So obviously Paul is referring to something else besides works in general.
Paul never said that the works of Christ He commanded us to do is included here. So when I read Romans 11:6 I see this:

(a) Talking about the works of the Law of Moses.
(b) Talking about Initial Salvation by God’s grace through faith without works (i.e. the 1st aspect of salvation).

The context is referring to the Jew who needed to be Initially Saved by God’s grace through in the Messiah (Jesus Christ).
The Jews were caught up in Law ALONE Salvationism via by the Law of Moses.



I believe the gospel is only 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and nothing else. See my write up here to learn more (even though the Bible appears to talk about the gospel as referring to something different than 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). The gospel is believing that Christ died for our sins, he was buried, and risen the third day. It’s nothing more than that. However, even the apostle Paul says that God has chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (Which is a call of the gospel) (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). Again, this Sanctification is not the gospel or good news but it is a CALL of the gospel.



I am not really interested in making disciples after myself. I am only looking to please God in this life and to follow what His Word says (Which many Protestants ignore). I do want fellowship with more like minded Christians but we are living in the last days and so that should not be any surprise that I cannot find too many Christians who don’t want to justify sin these days.



I already sought forgiveness of my sins with Jesus in 1992.
Giving one’s life to Jesus does not appear to align with the sin and still be saved Protestant belief that is popular these days.
Even you appear to be against living holy as a part of entering God’s Kingdom at times. So you are not consistent in your standard of morality if that is the case. For you disregard the secondary aspect of living holy as a part of God’s plan of salvation according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and Romans 8:13.

how many words does it take to contradict yourself?

Read what you write man, I can no longer read your long winded posts after you contradict yourself over and over

 

[Charlie24]

Not sure what this has to do with your statements that says you are a sinner (present tense) saved by God’s grace.
It sounds like you are saying these things as a cover (sheep’s clothing) in order to hide your true belief that justifies darkness and evil.

LOL!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I can only encourage you to prayerfully read over and over 1 Timothy 6:3-4 on being proud. It says that any man who does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ, and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. So if you are not for obeying Jesus, and His words or if you are not for godliness, then you are proud according to Paul. I did not say it. Paul did.

In Luke 10, we learn that Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life. Jesus did not rebuke the lawyer and tell him he was wrong and that he should just trust in the finished work of the cross. Many of you are saying that obeying God to enter life is evil or wrong, or against God. Yet, Jesus Himself taught this. This is what is scary about what Protestants believe. They cannot even see what their own Bible says.

well you do not believe the words of Jesus. only the ones which suit you and that you misinterpret.

The gospel is not about godliness, it is about hopelessness and God answer to a fallen world and his salvation. and the answer to mans ungodliness

You got the cart before the horse.. You need to learn Gods standard of righteousness. Strop trying to water down Gods standard so you can appear to convince yourself you have raised above it. You have not. and stop judging those of us who realize this fact. and look to God daily for his grace and help to continue to grow..

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So Paul is not referring to the Laws of Christ which Paul said he was basically under (1 Corinthians 9:21). We are not justified by the law of Moses (Acts of the Apostles 13:39). But of course you ignore this context because it destroys everything you were taught by Protestants (vs. just reading and studying the Bible with the help of the Spirit alone).

Now you sound like a Roman Catholic. The Bible says we are justified/saved through faith (Romans 5:1; Ephesians 2:8) and not through the law of Moses or the Laws of Christ.

First, as I told you many times before, I am against Catholicism. I have debated with Catholics before about their false beliefs. Just because they may agree with the Trinity does not undo the teaching of the Trinity. But I am the farthest thing from being a Catholic. I am for the Bible Alone + The Anointing to Understand It (Which they don’t believe). I am against their statue worship and praying to dead people (like Mary and the saints). I am against their confessing sins to a priest. I am against their forbidding to marry among the priesthood. I am against their appearing in holy garments and seeking the attention of others to appear as holy. I am against their calling men father. I am against their not eating meat on a certain day. I am against their having a pope, etcetera. I am against their large idolatrous buildings that they worship in. I am against their altering the Bible. So I am not even remotely in sounding like a Catholic because I reject most of everything they believe except the Trinity. I don’t even believe in what they regard as works as being the same (because they see their man made traditions as a part of being included in the salvation equation). So let the reader beware that your accusations are simply false. I am only giving everyone here what the Bible clearly states. I posted back in post #68, and post #69 a list of 30 verses that are clear that we must obey or live holy as a part of God’s plan of salvation after we are saved by God’s grace. Let the fair and impartial believer examine these Scripture for themselves to see the truth (despite your inaccurate labels).

Second, when the apostle Paul says we are justified by God’s grace through faith without works this would be in context to Initial Salvation and to the works of the 613 Laws of Moses. It cannot be in reference to Sanctification after we are saved by God’s grace because Paul was not talking about Sanctification after we are saved by God’s grace. Paul is not referring to the Laws of Christ because he says in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. Paul says we are not under the Law (Romans 6:14). This is the Law of Moses and not the Laws of Christ, because Paul states the he is not without the Law of God seeing he is under the Law(s) of Christ (See again 1 Corinthians 9:21). In fact, show me where in the Bible where Paul was speaking against even the laws of Christ as a part of salvation. In Luke 10, Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life. This would be a law of Christ. So you are saying that Paul is above the words of Jesus? That the laws of Christ do not apply? Show me where Paul says something like… if you love God to enter the Kingdom, you have fallen from grace. Show me where Paul says if you seek to help the poor to enter the Kingdom as Christ taught, you will not inherit the kingdom of God. Please show me something that is specifically a Law of Christ that Paul speaks against. The thing is… you will not find it. Only the 613 Laws of Moses (as a package deal was condemned).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

LOL!

Well, then you are only laughing at yourself. For you are the one who said they are a sinner (present tense) saved by God’s grace and then you later started to change the subject to make it appear like you are for holy living (Which makes you double minded). You are either for holy living or you are not really for that. I don’t believe you are for the true holy living as taught by the Bible because you said you are a sinner (present tense) saved by God’s grace. Meaning, you believe you can sin and still be saved.

 

[mailmandan]

Pay closer attention to Romans 4:9-12. The order of belief vs. circumcision was the focus. Abraham first believed God before circumcision (a work). So the idea here is that Abraham was Initially Saved by faith alone before he was circumcised which was a work. But even circumcision back then was a salvation issue.

“And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.” (Genesis 17:14).

In other words, faith alone saved Abraham in his Initial Salvation, but Abraham had to later be circumcised as a part of his faith in God. If Abraham refused to be circumcised, then he would be cut off from his people and he would have broken God’s covenant. So this is proof that you need to do something as a part of your faith later on to enter God’s Kingdom.

Granted, we are not under the Old Covenant anymore. So we don’t have to be circumcised. But the point here is that Abraham had to later do something in his faith after he was saved by faith alone beforehand.

To be continued (Lord willing):

You are hung up on the word "Initially" and also on "type 2 works salvation." I seriously doubt there is anything that I or anyone else can say that will cause you to repent (change your mind) and place your faith in Jesus Christ ALONE (from start to finish) for salvation. (Ephesians 2:8; 1 Peter 1:9) You are just too fixated on 'back door works salvation.' Your must do something later in order to be saved by faith after being saved by faith alone beforehand argument is an oxymoron. God imputes righteousness APART FROM WORKS. (Romans 4:2-6)

 

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well you do not believe the words of Jesus. only the ones which suit you and that you misinterpret.

The gospel is not about godliness, it is about hopelessness and God answer to a fallen world and his salvation. and the answer to mans ungodliness

You got the cart before the horse.. You need to learn Gods standard of righteousness. Strop trying to water down Gods standard so you can appear to convince yourself you have raised above it. You have not. and stop judging those of us who realize this fact. and look to God daily for his grace and help to continue to grow..

I don’t believe in doing works first to be saved so I am not putting any cart before the horse.
You also are not explaining any of the verses I bring forth that refutes your belief here, either. Until you do, you just have empty words of your own opinion. You need to explain the verses I have brought forth that demolishes your belief ten times over.

 

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You are hung up on the word "Initially" and also on "type 2 works salvation." I seriously doubt there is anything that I or anyone else can say that will cause you to repent (change your mind) and place your faith in Jesus Christ ALONE (from start to finish) for salvation. (Ephesians 2:8; 1 Peter 1:9) You are just too fixated on 'back door works salvation.' Must do something later in order to be saved by faith after being saved by faith alone beforehand is an oxymoron. God imputes righteousness APART FROM WORKS. (Romans 4:2-6)

Yes, I am hung up on the truth that Paul talked about Initial Salvation because that is what Paul was talking about in context. Nowhere will you see Paul condemning others for applying Sanctification or holy living according to the Laws of Christ in the NT as being condemned. You won’t find such words by the apostle Paul. In fact, Paul says Sanctification of the Spirit is a part of our salvation in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (also see Romans 8:13). That’s why your belief is utter nonsense and entirely made up.

 

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You are hung up on the word "Initially" and also on "type 2 works salvation." I seriously doubt there is anything that I or anyone else can say that will cause you to repent (change your mind) and place your faith in Jesus Christ ALONE (from start to finish) for salvation. (Ephesians 2:8; 1 Peter 1:9) You are just too fixated on 'back door works salvation.' Your must do something later in order to be saved by faith after being saved by faith alone beforehand argument is an oxymoron. God imputes righteousness APART FROM WORKS. (Romans 4:2-6)

Look, friend. The Bible’s last chapter even ends with it saying that blessed are they that do his commandments for they have right to the tree of life. It’s not those who believed on the finished work of the cross and who did not emphasize obedience will have right to the tree of life. Please read Revelation 22:14-15 in the KJB.

 

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how many words does it take to contradict yourself?

Read what you write man, I can no longer read your long winded posts after you contradict yourself over and over

There is no contradiction. There is a difference between Initial Salvation and the Secondary Aspect of Salvation. Time is what separates the difference. A person can be hired on to a sports team not based on anything they did, but then they later could be cut from the team based on their not performing properly. That is no contradiction. God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live godly and righteously in this present world.