The Problems of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.

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L.A.M.B.

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I like your post. There is one place that bothered me though, where you said, “He demands our obedience.”
Could you expand on that?


1 Sam.15:22 ( Cat 15:20-23)
And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great a delight in burnt offerings [ traditions, rituals,works of self righteousness] and sacrifices [ going on a 2 yr tour on a bike trying to recuit,or door knocking and leaving paper trash in every door to proselytize] as in OBEYING the voice of the Lord? Behold, To obey is better than sacrifice,and to HEARKEN than the fat of rams. 23. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft,...............

John 15: 10 ( Cxt 8-11)
If YE keep my commandments, YE shall abide in my love even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1 Thess.4 :1-3 ( Cxt)

Rms.2:8 ( Cxt 6-9 )
But unto to them that are contentious,and DO NOT OBEY THE TRUTH, but obey unrighteousness, indignation, and wrath v.9 also.

Do we demand our children obey us, of course but we do it in love. God expects the same from us to obey his commandments ( NOT the law) and He does it out of a much greater love !

I drummed it in my children's heads " for EVERY CHOICE you make, there will be consequences. Good or bad consequences, it up to how YOU CHOOSE. They never came to me to bail them out nor whined about troubles they got into.
For those that rebel against what God says they will pay the upmost price......( death in the lof, eternally NEVER having another chance with God )

It is God's way or no way ! Our excuses won't hold water before Him when we hold the TRUTH in our hands. It is by HIS word we will be judged before Christ and before the GWT.

We are not conjoled, nor coddled to follow Christ but by strong CONVICTIONS OF SIN by the Holy Spirit.
 

stunnedbygrace

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1 Sam.15:22 ( Cat 15:20-23)
And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great a delight in burnt offerings [ traditions, rituals,works of self righteousness] and sacrifices [ going on a 2 yr tour on a bike trying to recuit,or door knocking and leaving paper trash in every door to proselytize] as in OBEYING the voice of the Lord? Behold, To obey is better than sacrifice,and to HEARKEN than the fat of rams. 23. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft,...............

John 15: 10 ( Cxt 8-11)
If YE keep my commandments, YE shall abide in my love even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1 Thess.4 :1-3 ( Cxt)

Rms.2:8 ( Cxt 6-9 )
But unto to them that are contentious,and DO NOT OBEY THE TRUTH, but obey unrighteousness, indignation, and wrath v.9 also.

Do we demand our children obey us, of course but we do it in love. God expects the same from us to obey his commandments ( NOT the law) and He does it out of a much greater love !

I drummed it in my children's heads " for EVERY CHOICE you make, there will be consequences. Good or bad consequences, it up to how YOU CHOOSE. They never came to me to bail them out nor whined about troubles they got into.
For those that rebel against what God says they will pay the upmost price......( death in the lof, eternally NEVER having another chance with God )

It is God's way or no way ! Our excuses won't hold water before Him when we hold the TRUTH in our hands. It is by HIS word we will be judged before Christ and before the GWT.

We are not conjoled, nor coddled to follow Christ but by strong CONVICTIONS OF SIN by the Holy Spirit.

thanks for answering. So this is how I see/hear what you’re saying - you must not murder. But anger in the heart is to have already murdered. So you must figure out a way to stop having anger rise up inside you this way or you will be thrown into the lof for not obeying God.

So to me, it appears you are (inadvertently and not intentionally) preaching the letter of a spiritual matter and leading back to law and away from trust.
 
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Behold

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For example: If you don't believe Romans is not talking about Initial Salvation primarily, and it is talking about your continued salvation (after one is saved by God’s grace),

Im not sure who created the theology of "initial" salvation, but its not found in a New Testament.
Its found in your church, or your commentary.
So, who is the person who has given you the idea of "initial" Salvation ?
Care to share this commentary writer's name?
Then we can have a conversation about that person's Theology.
 

Rudometkin

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I am under God's submission ,he is not under mine. He however will not force us,

God supplies your existence, so you are nothing apart from what He causes of you.

Everything happens by God's force. Nothing exists by itself. God's power is what makes everything exist and occur.

If God stopped existing (impossible), then you also would stop existing. Nothing about you nor your soul is self-existent. So how is your free will supposed to originate anything apart from God?
 
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L.A.M.B.

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thanks for answering. So this is how I see/hear what you’re saying - you must not murder. But anger in the heart is to have already murdered. So you must figure out a way to stop having anger rise up inside you this way or you will be thrown into the lof for not obeying God.

So to me, it appears you are (inadvertently and not intentionally) preaching the letter of a spiritual matter and leading back to law and away from trust.




Jesus said what you have just said, dear.

No ma' am, we serve a just and forgiving God . He alone knows what our big mouths says if it is truly in our hearts.

We must be subject to ALL OF GOD, THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Jesus purchased our redemption price , his ministry was about showing us God's great love. He tilled the soil of our hearts with Gods message of love, the Holy Spirit convicts and draws us to repentance. This is the only way we can have access to the Father.

By NO means do I hold to the law but as Paul said it is the Spirit of the law that ( even when we know NOT the law) schools us in NOT going against the commands of God. Our conscience, if we have one, helps before salvation to have us choose rightly bc ppl [ most] have an innate sense of kindness, fairness and love. Would you agree ? This however will not keep us from unbelief.


My stance is this, never,ever believe a man made doctrine if it cannot be backed by the word. Not a twisted,round the old oak tree kind of validity either but solid God says............

There is one word ppl refuse to see in the word....IF.... why? Can we say out of ignorance ? NO, bc God no longer winks at ignorance for it is willfully choosing to be blind !
Disobedience and rebellion will provoke His anger and ppl choose themselves not to submit and THAT HAS CONSEQUENCES!


Right now is our only hope here while there is breath, once death is rendered your case is closed, your file put away, your name not in the BOL, it is over until JUDGMENT.
 

L.A.M.B.

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Tryin' to be like Him.

You aren't?




Yes,most assuredly.
He wants us to walk in love not anger.
You go to ONE church and flip a table at the Lord's house......lol

You will either end up in a Psychiatric ward or jail.

Plz be sure to send me where you land and MAYBE through prayer God will send an angel for your deliverance.
 

Bible Highlighter

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Im not sure who created the theology of "initial" salvation, but its not found in a New Testament.

First, you mean THE New Testament and not A New Testament (implying that there is more than one New Testament).

Second, so if you don't believe in being Initially Saved, then does that mean you never got saved at any point in time and you are a Universalist (Who believes all men will be saved - i.e. both the wicked unbelievers and the righteous believers)? There was never a point you got saved at one moment in time (i.e. Initial Salvation)?

Its found in your church, or your commentary.

I did not learn what I did from a church or commentary. The Bible teaches it by the use of indirect wording that implies that fact. A person goes from being an unbeliever to a believer shows that they went from being lost to being saved. So they had an Initial point in time that they were first saved. That's what Initial Salvation means. It means when one first gets saved. Being saved initially (or when a person first gets saved) happens by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior and a belief of the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 in that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen the third day. This is a process of salvation that is without works because we are first saved by God's grace and mercy and not in anything major that we did. There are many verses that talk about being saved by God's grace for a person first being saved (i.e. they went from lost to saved by accepting Jesus and or receiving His forgiveness). But after a believer is saved by God's grace, Christians then need to enter the Sanctification of the Spirit as a part of God's continued plan of salvation. For 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says,

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth...” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

So, who is the person who has given you the idea of "initial" Salvation ?

The apostle Paul from the Holy Scriptures.

You said:
Care to share this commentary writer's name?

No commentary. Just the Bible. I gave up on commentaries because they tend to push the sin and still be saved agenda or the Protestant brainwashing program.

You said:
Then we can have a conversation about that person's Theology.

Just the Bible is my sole authority for all matters of faith and practice. The majority of what I learned was from asking God and by comparing Scripture with Scripture. Very few times did I need to go to a Christian article to build my theology. It was usually only a latch ditch option. I prefer to compare Scripture with Scripture. But you build your belief from Protestants and so that is all you have ever known. You don't accept all verses in the Bible because Protestants don't do that. They have to twist or ignore tons of verses to make their sin and still be saved type belief work.
 
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Behold

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First, you mean THE New Testament and not A New Testament (implying that there is more than one New Testament).
Second, so if you don't believe in being Initially Saved, then does that mean you never got saved at any point in time .

I said "A" new Testament, as there are over 250 of them, and none of them teach "initial" Salvation.

Also, i was born again, and that was not initially, that was Eternally.

Next, you posted that you compared scripture with scripture, yet, no verse in any NT< even teaches that Salvation is a process, that has an initial start, and some type of continuation based on the believer's faith continuing, that maintains it or completes it.
Why? Because Salvation was completed by CHRIST on the CROSS.
We dont DO THAT....we RECEIVE IT, as "the GIFT of SALVATION".

There is a verse that speaks about the Goodness of God and continuing in it. This is Romans chapter 11, but that is literally talking to the "gentiles", and even in this case, Paul teaches that its "God's Goodness" that is salvation, which is Christ on the Cross.
Salvation is Christ on the Cross, not you doing something other than receiving this Gift from God.

So, as you didnt get "initial salvation" from a bible, or a commentary, then you created it as your own theology.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Jesus said what you have just said, dear.

Okay. So…Jesus wants us to just keep trying harder and harder to somehow make our flesh and emotions not control us? That’s the way of trust and dependence? You can, by hard effort and working, stop having anger and resentments inside?
 

Bible Highlighter

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I haven't checked out Alan Manson yet but I have watched both videos and subscribed to both channels.

Update:

I had to remove these videos from Alan Ballou (that I posted before).

While I liked Alan Ballou’s videos before on Sanctification and putting away sin and they were really helpful, the problem is he is a false accuser of the brethren. In the YouTube comment section in this video here, Alan Ballou falsely accused me of several things that I are not actually true. I said that while I agreed with his viewpoint on how there are two aspects of salvation, I told him that I disagree with his view on “obeying the gospel.” I told him “obeying the gospel“ is defined for us in Romans 10 in that it is believing the gospel message. He also implied there was no free will when we come to the Lord (Which is Calvinism), and he used John 6 as an example. I explained to him why this is not Calvinism and instead of disagreeing in love and respect, he started to falsely accuse me (as if I had teachers, and I went to bible college - when that is not the case). I tried to tell him in love that he was falsely accusing me here, and he never replied back. You can see the conversation under the same username I use here (Bible Highlighter) with there being 16 replies to my comment to him. I refuse to watch somebody who falsely accuses other Christians

Alan Manson (while I agree with him on Initial Salvation, and Final Salvation), I don't agree with Alan Manson's unloving attitude or overly controlling behavior (which seems cult like). Alan Manson believes being born again (in that he thinks it happens later in the Christian life), and he believes in the Pre-Existence of the Soul of the Believer in Heaven before one is physically born into this world. While I was willing to agree to disagree with Alan Manson on these points so as to talk with him as a brother in love, he started to treat me like an enemy because I don't accept these two odd views that are not in Scripture. He kept writing me book length replies by email and telling me how I was wrong and there is a wall between us (with him actually making a drawing to show the wall with two people on either side of the wall).

Alan Ballou (while he does not believe in the Trinity - and it breaks my heart to know this), he has probably the best videos I have ever seen on Sanctification for salvation (hands down). But because he falsely accused me of things that are not true, I can no longer endorse his videos anymore. It’s one thing to have disagreements between each other as Christians, but the moment we start to be hateful by falsely accusing one another is crossing the line. I gave him no indication I went to bible college or that I had teachers. Alan Ballou appeared to act like I was a sin and still be saved type believer when I disagreed with him on two points in Scripture from his one video.


You said:
The video with Adam sharing his testimony was so much like my story. When he said that he was taught that faith alone would somehow free you from sin, I felt that.

Adam (who is now changed his channel name) has treated me with a lack of love on the YouTube comments section. He called me a heretic when I told him I believed I did not believe in water baptism. Granted, today I now believe a Christian must be water baptized but the point here is that he was being unloving with me. Our conversations by email were not loving in the slightest.

I hold to the view that faith is like a two sided coin.

It starts off as a belief alone in being saved by God's grace without works (in our Initial Salvation), and then faith matures and grows in doing the work of faith and or in being faithful (in the
Sanctification Process of the Spirit).

To learn more: Check out my write up here (at Christian Forums) to check out the verses (if it sounds like your cup of tea).


The first video was really good and full of convicting Scriptures. I almost wish I could get a list of all the Scriptures he used and do a Bible study of them. I will go back and see if he put them in the description.


You said:
It is so good to see people saying the truth! I don't think words can adequately describe what I got from what you've shared. Strong meat and encouragement come close.

So glad I was able to bless you, sister. God's Word is amazing and he can definitely use people for His glory indeed.

Stay strong in the power of the Lord's might and His Word always.
 
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Wynona

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I am watching Allan Ballou's videos now and have subscribed to his Youtube channel.


To learn more: Check out my write up here (at Christian Forums) to check out the verses (if it sounds like your cup of tea).

I did read it. Thanks for sharing. The initial responses to it are disheartening, as some even admitted they did not read it. But in 1 Timothy, it says to teach with patience both in season and out of season.


2 Timothy 4:2-4 NKJV

2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

Once Saved Always Saved is a fable and not biblically supported. I was on another forum and saw a pattern of things devolving when OSAS is refuted with Scriptures. So often it turns into "You heretic, I won't listen. Na na na boo boo I can't hear you."


But if people at that forum had never stood up against hyper grace and osas, I wouldn't have gone to the Scriptures to see if it was true. I may have been just one lost sheep willing to hear people out but God used threads like this to lead me back to the Word.

 
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Behold

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I hold to the view that faith is like a two sided coin.
It starts off as a belief alone in being saved by God's grace without works (in our Initial Salvation), and then faith matures and grows in doing the work of faith and or in being faithful (in the Sanctification Process of the Spirit).

According to your post, you dont yet understand that Salvation, is God causing it... And following your Salvation, you are to do the works of a Son of God. And that is defined as DISCIPLESHIP.

So, your issue, is that you dont understand that they are not one in the same.
Salvation is God caused.
Discipleship, which follows Salvation, is what you do, as "presenting your body a living sacrifice".

Salvation is God giving you HIS BODY and BLOOD so that you can be SAVED.

Discipleship, is when you have been SAVED by God's Gift of Christ of Cross, .. you then present your SAVED SELF to God, as a Disciple.

Many believers, have not understood that Salvation, that is Christ on the Cross, is not our Discipleship, that we perform, BECAUSE God has given us the "Gift of Salvation".

An analogy misunderstanding....would be that You are SAVED by water.
When the truth is, you are SAVED, and then after you are saved, you are water baptized.
So, this CULT, does not understand that Water follows SALVATION<... exactly as you do not yet understand that DISCIPLESHIP< follows Salvation.
 

Bible Highlighter

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I am watching Allan Ballou's videos now and have subscribed to his Youtube channel.

Update:

I had to remove these videos from Alan Ballou (that I posted before).

While I liked Alan Ballou’s videos before on Sanctification and putting away sin and they were really helpful, the problem is he is a false accuser of the brethren. In the YouTube comment section in this video here, Alan Ballou falsely accused me of several things that I are not actually true. I said that while I agreed with his viewpoint on how there are two aspects of salvation, I told him that I disagree with his view on “obeying the gospel.” I told him “obeying the gospel“ is defined for us in Romans 10 in that it is believing the gospel message. He also implied there was no free will when we come to the Lord (Which is Calvinism), and he used John 6 as an example. I explained to him why this is not Calvinism and instead of disagreeing in love and respect, he started to falsely accuse me (as if I had teachers, and I went to bible college - when that is not the case). I tried to tell him in love that he was falsely accusing me here, and he never replied back. You can see the conversation under the same username I use here (Bible Highlighter) with there being 16 replies to my comment to him. I refuse to watch somebody who falsely accuses other Christians.

I did read it. Thanks for sharing. The initial responses to it are disheartening, as some even admitted they did not read it. But in 1 Timothy, it says to teach with patience both in season and out of season.
2 Timothy 4:2-4 NKJV

2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

Thank you so much for the kind and encouraging words from Scripture.
I am actually praying to make more time to do comic book tracts for the Lord similar to Chick Tracts.

Here is a sample of one of Chick Publications famous tracts (of which God used to save me back in 1992).

Chick.com: This Was Your Life
(Note: Unfortunately, they preach against works in one of their other tracts).

Anyways, any prayers for my Tract ministry would be greatly appreciated.
For I am looking to create tracts that preaches the whole truth in regards to salvation.
I have some really amazing story ideas so far, but need a God intervention to help me to make it more of a passionate must desire in my life. I used to do some excellent artwork back in early college, but I have not done much after that.


You said:
Once Saved Always Saved is a fable and not biblically supported. I was on another forum and saw a pattern of things devolving when OSAS is refuted with Scriptures. So often it turns into "You heretic, I won't listen. Na na na boo boo I can't hear you."

Yes, it almost becomes childish.

Update:

Adam from Epiousion Apologetics (Which is changed to a different channel name now) has treated me with a strong lack of love in the YouTube comments, as well. At one point I used to believe water baptism was not for salvation, and I expressed this to him. He started calling me a heretic, etcetera. When I changed my position after examining the issue again and praying about it, whereby I now believe in water baptism as a part of the faith, I told him about this and there was no real comment to my post on YouTube. No apologies for saying I was a heretic, or congratulations for discovering the truth. So while he appears to be for holy living, he does not show true love to Christians like he should.

So I while I found his videos beneficial in the past, I cannot recommend them now because he is not loving and nice with the brethren.

You said:
But if people at that forum had never stood up against hyper grace and osas, I wouldn't have gone to the Scriptures to see if it was true. I may have been just one lost sheep willing to hear people out but God used threads like this to lead me back to the Word.

Praise God. His mercy and goodness endures forever.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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I am watching Allan Ballou's videos now and have subscribed to his Youtube channel.




I did read it. Thanks for sharing. The initial responses to it are disheartening, as some even admitted they did not read it. But in 1 Timothy, it says to teach with patience both in season and out of season.
Side Note:

Oh, and if you are interested, this video was helpful for me in understanding the words of the apostle Paul.
Granted, Kerrigan Skelly is not someone I watch often, but this video by him helped me to understand that Paul was speaking with the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism in mind.


Really a great video - IMHO.
 
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Charlie24

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I would encourage you to check out Alan Ballou and not Alan Manson. Alan Manson (while I agree with him on Initial Salvation, and Final Salvation), I don't agree with Alan Manson's unloving attitude or overly controlling behavior (which seems cult like). Alan Manson believes being born again (in that he thinks it happens later in the Christian life), and he believes in the Pre-Existence of the Soul of the Believer in Heaven before one is physically born into this world. While I was willing to agree to disagree with Alan Manson on these points so as to talk with him as a brother in love, he started to treat me like an enemy because I don't accept these two odd views that are not in Scripture. He kept write me book length replies by email and telling me how I was wrong and there is a wall between us (with him actually making a drawing to show the wall with two people on either side of the wall).

Alan Ballou (while he does not believe in the Trinity - and it breaks my heart to know this), he has probably the best videos I have ever seen on Sanctification for salvation (hands down). He really gives you a ton of verses in short span of time. Alan Ballou is also loving a person to talk with by email. I know it does not sound appealing to watch somebody who does not believe in the Trinity, but I have not seen anyone else do videos on Sanctification (as a part of our salvation) like he does. He gives you tons of verses, and I want to go back through some of his videos and take lots of notes on the verses he provides.



I am glad to hear that you came out of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism. I am glad you can relate to Adam's story. I am still investigating what Adam believes still by watching more of his videos. At times he says we are initially saved by God's grace without works and yet at other times he appears to say that faith can never be a belief at any point in our lives as Christians. So I am not sure what he means by that.

I hold to the view that faith is like a two sided coin.

It starts off as a belief alone in being saved by God's grace without works (in our Initial Salvation), and then faith matures and grows in doing the work of faith and or in being faithful (in the
Sanctification Process of the Spirit).

To learn more: Check out my write up here (at Christian Forums) to check out the verses (if it sounds like your cup of tea).



Alan Ballou's longer videos are even better - IMHO.
But I am praying for him to be able to one day see the truth of the Trinity in Scripture.



So glad I was able to bless you, sister. God's Word is amazing and he can definitely use people for His glory indeed.

Stay strong in the power of the Lord's might and His Word always.

BH, I was reading your post here and see that you mentioned "sanctification." That's interesting to me because I haven't discussed this subject in quite some time.

The point I want to prove here is that just as we have no part in our salvation but hear and believe, so it is with our sanctification.

We have no part in that either! Let me show how that is!

There are 3 levels of sanctification,

Positional / Progressive / Glorified

Positional sanctification occurs at the moment of being justified. You are justified by Grace through faith and given a position in the Kingdom of God. Here is that position.

1 Cor. 6:11

" And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

This is your new position in Christ, and notice it is done by "the Spirit of God." You had no part in that but to hear and believe.

Progressive sanctification will now be carried out in your life as long as you live by the Holy Spirit. He is ridding you of your sin and creating slowly but surely Christlikeness in you. Here is that sanctification.

1 Thes. 4:3

" For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:"

This is all the work of the Holy Spirit, He is the Sanctifier. All we do is believe and turn from sin. Hearing and believing He will do it.

This is where the flesh and Spirit have war. The sin nature of the flesh is warring against the work of the Spirit. Paul has many thing to tell us about this warfare and how to overcome by the Sprit.

Glorified sanctification or Ultimate sanctification as some use, is the final sanctification. This seals up the sum of who we will be. At the resurrection we are "wholly sanctified" by the Spirit and we are as He is, perfect. Here is this sanctification.

1 Thes. 5:23

" And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

This truth is revealed in Eph. 1:13-14

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

The gift of the indwelling Holy Spirt, as Paul says here, is the down-payment on our salvation. We are not fully purchased by His redemption until the resurrection. This is where we are "fully sanctified" by the Holy Spirit.

But don't misunderstand me! We are assured of salvation the very moment we believe, and we are as saved then as we will ever be.

But in the legal aspect of things, our salvation is finalized at the resurrection when as John said, "we will be like Him."

What I'm saying here with all of this is that we have no part in our salvation at all! Just to hear and believe. If you believe, you will allow the Spirit to do all this. The good works, and all works are performed by the Spirit through us. We have no part in that either, just to hear and believe as we receive His Word. As I have said before about the works, just walk through that door He has opened for you, and always be prepared to see that open door He has laid out just for you!

You make it so difficult, Bh! With your way none of us have a chance to enter into the Kingdom of God.
 
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BloodBought 1953

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Jun 3, 2020
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Any evidence I get from the Bible is nullified by the “out of context” card.

The fact that you don’t like it does not change the fact that is True.....and I have proved it whenever I make that claim....why not just admit it when you are proven to be in error?
 
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