The Problems of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.

[BarneyFife]

.
.
God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican!
.
.

 

[Behold]

No man that justifies their sin has truly been converted .

THE PROOF is in the fruit .

Unbelievers Justify their sin and themselves.

also..

"Fruit", can be faked. So, this proves nothing, except that the the devil knows you are looking for it, so he fakes it with his preachers.

There is one proof of Salvation.... regarding having it.

1.) Born again

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Well here is the problem. Grace isn't a saviour. Jesus is. We must trust Jesus, which means listening to what he taught.

He taught us in John 15, that if we don't bear good fruit, we'd be cut off and thrown into the fire.

But its not impossible to bear good fruit if we abide in Jesus and let his Words remain in us.

Of course, “ Grace isn’t a Savior” .....but you had Better Understand * THIS*——- “ GRACE “ is an ATTRIBUTE of Jesus, and Without it , you would be LOST and WITHOUT HOPE!

God does not need us, and we can add NOTHING to Him.....If not for His Pure, UNDESERVED Grace and Mercy , we would all be doomed to a well- deserved Hell....

Your logic is akin to saying that a Fireman does not put out fires——water does!

In regard to “ Fruit” bearing? No Believer “ has” to produce fruit......If one Rests in the Gospel Of Grace as God Commands in Hebrews, getting beyond the “ disobedience and Unbelief” That God describes therein, the Holy Spirit will be in Him and “ Fruit Bearing” will occur naturally.....You don't grab a Fruit Tree by the trunk and start shaking it and screaming at it, yelling, “ PRODUCE FRUIT! PRODUCE FRUIT”.....

No, Fruit bearing has to occur Naturally .....As a matter of fact, if a man tries to produce True Fruit by going about it by himself , he will fail......he may accomplish something positive, but it ain’t Fruit unless it is something that the Holy Spirit does “ Through” you.....Jesus said, “ If a man remains in me and I in him, he will produce MUCH Fruit, but apart from Me, you can do Nothing!” ( John 15:5)

In 1Cor3:12, Paul makes it clear that if you have no fruit , you will STILL be Saved —— Saved like a guy that barely escapes a House Fire.....and he will be bereft Of Rewards in Heaven...The absence of Fruit means that we are not following God’s Will for our lives —- it doesn’t mean that we are lost!

This is something that the Legalist can’t understand....Unless our Good Works are promoted by the Holy Spirit , they are just “ Dead Works” .....they are of no True Value to God’s Kingdom no matter how successful they appear to be...” Unless God builds the House, it is built in vain”

But if you let the Holy Spirit hang around long enough, things of Great Value can be accomplished THROUGH YOU, things that even the Nosiest, most Judgmental “ Fruit Inspector” might Fail to see....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

The Problems of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.
^OP

Whereby the OP has a “problem” with perpetual Belief “alone”... IN CONTRAST;
Jesus does NOT project a problem.
Scripture does NOT project a problem.

Jesus had this to say;

John 6:
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

And Matthew:

Matt 24:
[13] But he that shall endure (believing) unto the end, (of his physical life) the same (he) shall be saved.

Best to TRUST the Word of God!

I thank God for your insightful , Biblically Sound Posts—— they are like a breath of fresh air ...thanks for being a voice of Sanity in these Forums that are so often filled with Confusion and Ignorance....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

First, I am not the only one who believes the way I do. There are other people who believe the Bible the same way I do because they are just reading the Bible plainly. Second, if a person were to read the Bible plainly for themselves they will believe the truth, as well. No Bible Highlighter is needed. But most today just believe Protestant lies (and they don’t like to think for themselves in reading and believing the Bible plainly). They exchanged the truth for a lie and they like it because it is a belief that caters to their own self and their sin. But if you need verses on repentance (seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus as a part of our salvation), see post #876 within this thread. Note: I am not really expecting you to read these verses and or to believe them. But I merely point to them again for the benefit of others who are seeking the truth.

You managed to get at least “ One” thing right—— I don’t read your stuff...Anybody that teaches the Blasphemy Of “ Lucky Repentance” is not worth listening to and us not fit for ANY type of serious Christian debate...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Protestantism has been taking quite a beating in this thread, with no less than 40 posts containing attacks by the OP.

Yes, but my attack is primarily on Belief Alone Salvationism (Which makes up the vast majority of Protestantism).
I am not saying ALL denominations in Protestantism holds to Belief Alone Salvationism, but most of them do (Which is evident by looking at this list here) and then looking to see if they also hold to Sanctification and or works as a part of God’s plan of salvation (In addition to being saved by God’s grace through faith). Do these groups officially believe Sanctification or works of faith are necessary for salvation? Granted, I do realize that there are individuals within Protestantism that believe both faith and works are necessary for salvation. According to one poll, 30% of Protestants believe both faith and works are required part of inheriting eternal life. But Luther started the Protestant movement and he held to faith alone. So why follow a church movement that has it’s origins in Belief Alone Salvationism if one does not believe that?

It is not a denomination and therefore is not the second largest denomination in the world.

You are correct, and I was wrong on this point. My apologies. Protestantism is not a denomination but it is a major branch or group of Christianity. It is the 2nd largest branch of Christianity in the world. A denomination is what would be another sub branch within the larger branch of Christianity (like Protestantism, or Catholicism).

It is also largely the means by which we have access to the Bible at all.

Yes, I am aware that our preservation of the Holy Scriptures is largely thanks to the branch of Protestantism. But Erasmus (Who was Catholic was also pivotal in preserving God’s Word for the Protestants, though) (Note: I do not agree with Catholicism). Anyways, God can use imperfect people to accomplish his will. King Saul and his men prophesied but that does not mean they were in favor with God. Granted, I am not saying all Protestants were not in favor with God. I am saying that those who hold to Belief Alone Salvationism (Which leads to a sin and still be saved mentality) is the problem at the origin and vast majority of Protestantism.

To lump all the denominations that barely will suffer to still call themselves "Protestant" into one lump might be considered somewhat misrepresentative, at best.

Yes, my apologies. I should have clarified this better. I should say Protestant Belief Alone Salvationists. But as I said before, Protestantism stems from Martin Luther who started Protestant Belief Alone Salvationism. This is what I was referring to. True Protestantism. If one is a true Protestant than one will follow the major beliefs of Martin Luther.

With my own faith being distinctly Protestant (and numbering 22 million worldwide at present), I'm probably more offended by this display of religious bigotry than I should be.

Are you referring to Seven Day Adventistism? If so… I disagree with their official statement that is is solely in faith alone in Christ alone for salvation. One must also live holy as part of the Sanctification Process of the Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:13). While I am sure that some Seventh Day Adventists may agree with me that Sanctification is also a part of our salvation, the fact of the matter is what is the belief of the majority of that church and it’s official statement on the matter? For example: Do you believe a Seventh Day Adventist refusing to observe the Saturday Sabbath is saved?

Granted, I don’t hold to the view that we are obligated to keep the Saturday Sabbath because we are no longer under the 613 laws of Moses as a whole or package deal (even though certain laws like: Do not murder, do not covet, do not steal, etcetera are still in effect).

Nevertheless, enough is enough. The cause of true Protestantism must be heard.

This hearing should be backed by Scripture (of course), right?

You are, of course, free to carry on with your baseless scandalizing of the principle that Christianity should be free from universal, systematic oppression of religious liberty, and thereby the indulgence of two classes of mankind—those who need to be made to feel they can be saved by their own merits, and those who are intent upon pursuing assurance of salvation while remaining in their sins.

One is either for obeying God as a part of God’s grace (Titus 2:11-12), or one is for disobeying God as a part of God’s grace (Jude 1:4).
There is no in between version of this.

Catering to these carnal desires is the secret of the papacy's wild success, and virtually none today feel the need to call it into question.

But to pigeonhole Protestantism as the bane of Christianity's soteriological existence is to go on further to strengthen the hands of the greater evil of Romanism.

I am not Catholic, Orthodox, etcetera. I am strongly against those organizations because they exalt man made traditions as being on the same level as the Word of God (Scripture), and because they are into idolatry, etcetera. While it was good that Luther protested against the Catholic Church, he did not do it entirely for all the right reasons. His belief in Faith Alone was going down the opposite wrong extreme. Luther said, “We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides... No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day" ['Let Your Sins Be Strong, from 'The Wittenberg Project;' 'The Wartburg Segment', translated by Erika Flores, from Dr. Martin Luther's Saemmtliche Schriften, Letter No. 99, 1 Aug. 1521. - Cf. Also Denifle’s Luther et Lutheranisme, Etude Faite d’apres les sources. Translation by J. Paquier (Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), VOl. II, pg. 404].

The Bible teaches that God has chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13).

And all of this is not even to mention the hypocrisy of championing the cause of so-called "righteousness" while trampling underfoot the 4th commandment of the law given at Sinai that points out sin.

Ellen G. White wrongfully emphasized the necessity of a believer’s obedience to Saturday Sabbath from her visions. Seventh Day Adventistism has early influence greatly by this woman. I would not want to follow what they believe based on her added doctrines to the Bible, but I want to follow what the Bible says alone.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

First, I am not the only one who believes the way I do.



I know. A simple, cursory reading of the Bible reveals that the majority is almost always wrong...many people are on the “Wide Path” Of Legalism , Lucky Repentance and being “ good widdle boys and girls” so that they can become “ worthy” of Eternal Life......Those Of us on the Narrow Path Believe in “ Nothing But The Blood” and don't try to “ make themselves worthy” of Eternal Life....We Thank God for his Amazing Grace and realize that we are * MADE WORTHY” by the Blood Of The Lamb—- Plus NOTHING!
I hope that you get this figured out some day—- it’s the difference between Heaven and Hell.....you are at risk of discovering that your “ Lucky Repentance” Doctrine is a sad, Damnable joke...I will try to remember to pray for you...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

.
.
Protestantism has been taking quite a beating in this thread, with no less than 40 posts containing attacks by the OP.

It is not a denomination and therefore is not the second largest denomination in the world.

It is also largely the means by which we have access to the Bible at all.

To lump all the denominations that barely will suffer to still call themselves "Protestant" into one lump might be considered somewhat misrepresentative, at best.

With my own faith being distinctly Protestant (and numbering 22 million worldwide at present), I'm probably more offended by this display of religious bigotry than I should be.

Nevertheless, enough is enough. The cause of true Protestantism must be heard.

You are, of course, free to carry on with your baseless scandalizing of the principle that Christianity should be free from universal, systematic oppression of religious liberty, and thereby the indulgence of two classes of mankind—those who need to be made to feel they can be saved by their own merits, and those who are intent upon pursuing assurance of salvation while remaining in their sins.

Catering to these carnal desires is the secret of the papacy's wild success, and virtually none today feel the need to call it into question.

But to pigeonhole Protestantism as the bane of Christianity's soteriological existence is to go on further to strengthen the hands of the greater evil of Romanism.

And all of this is not even to mention the hypocrisy of championing the cause of so-called "righteousness" while trampling underfoot the 4th commandment of the law given at Sinai that points out sin.
.
.

We each believe the way we do for our own reasons based on the light or truth God has revealed to us. It’s nothing personal. In fact, I am commanded to love all people. But I simply disagree with Protestant Belief Alone Salvationism because it simply is not taught in God’s Word. We are first saved by God’s grace through faith without works (in our Initial Salvation), and then we continue in God’s plan of salvation by going through the Sanctification Process of the Holy Spirit to live a holy life (By following the commands of Jesus and His followers in the New Testament). For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

This is what I believe the Bible teaches.

Anyways, I love you in Christ Jesus but I don’t love the wrong belief of Protestant Belief Alone Salvationism.

May you be blessed in the Lord Jesus and be well.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

"Fruit", can be faked.

***MAIN EVENT***

@Behold vs the Holy Bible

“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20)

And the winner by KO is the Holy Bible!

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Thank you for your much gentleness displayed to those who have persecuted you with words.
Stand fast in the faith the Lord has shown to you, be not overcome with evil. Let the sweet Spirit comfort your heart as you stand fully armored, he has got your back



It might be prudent it go back and read the “Gentle” little story she told that Mocked the Grace Of God and cleverly tried to attack those that *DO* put their Faith in the Blood Of Jesus and the Grace of God .....Discover for yourself who drew “ First Blood”...... and God does NOT have the “Back” Of ANYBODY that makes a joke out of the Grace of God That That was purchased with the Shed Blood Of His Son—— despite how “ sweetly” they present it.....

And the issue with “ ANGER?” ......take it up with Jesus.....it was HE , not ME , that out of Anger went on a Rampage throughout the Holy Temple and and whipped the wrong- doers Of His day and turned over their tables....

Their exists a thing called “ Righteous Anger”..... it’s what I have. It is completely merited!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

First, I am not the only one who believes the way I do.



I know. A simple, cursory reading of the Bible reveals that the majority is almost always wrong...many people are on the “Wide Path” Of Legalism , Lucky Repentance and being “ good widdle boys and girls” so that they can become “ worthy” of Eternal Life......Those Of us on the Narrow Path Believe in “ Nothing But The Blood” and don't try to “ make themselves worthy” of Eternal Life....We Thank God for his Amazing Grace and realize that we are * MADE WORTHY” by the Blood Of The Lamb—- Plus NOTHING!
I hope that you get this figured out some day—- it’s the difference between Heaven and Hell.....you are at risk of discovering that your “ Lucky Repentance” Doctrine is a sad, Damnable joke...I will try to remember to pray for you...

Catholicism has many errors (idolatry, praying to the dead, etcetera). Catholicism makes up the largest branch of Christianity (with 1.2 billion adherents). They really don’t believe in being saved initially by God’s grace through without works (of which I disagree with). They certainly would be considered a wide gate path.

Protestantism is closer to the truth in certain ways. But most of it’s adherents (not all of them) hold to the opposite wrong extreme of Belief Alone Salvationism. There are 800 million to 1 billion Protestants. So this is yet another large branch of Christianity but it’s sub branches (denominations) are diverse in their beliefs and practice. But again, most of them (not all) hold to a form of Belief Alone Salvationism. Protestant Belief Alone Salvationism would be a wide gate path because this is yet another super large branch of Christianity. In fact, it is the second largest branch of Christianity out there.

Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and few be there that find it (Matthew 7:14).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

.
.
God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican!
.
.

This passage is often misused to justify living a life of sin or in that we all must sin this side of Heaven on some level. However, the Lord Jesus was not advocating disobedience by any means here. The problem with the Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14 is that he did not seek forgiveness of ALL of his sins with God and he needed to do so. Jesus said that the Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, judgment, and mercy (Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42). The Pharisees also undid the Word of God by their man made traditions, too (Mark 7:13). So this shows that the Pharisee most likely had other sins that needed to be confessed before God and he was thinking he was better than others because he kept certain laws of God (But not all of them).

In fact, Jesus also told two people to sin no more (John 5:14) (John 8:11). In fact, if Jesus was advocating disobedience in His teaching, then He would be leading others into sin and that would be wrong and He could not be a perfect spotless Lamb to die for our sins.

 

[amigo de christo]

Unbelievers Justify their sin and themselves.

also..

"Fruit", can be faked. So, this proves nothing, except that the the devil knows you are looking for it, so he fakes it with his preachers.

There is one proof of Salvation.... regarding having it.

1.) Born again

Fruits can be faked . But even then you know them by their fruits . We just need to Be of the TRUE VINE , CHRIST
and believe me the fruits get exposed . Even the best seller most pious righteous do gooder
IS gonna sin willfully and they will justify their evil and why they do as they do . Ye shall KNOW them by their fruits .
Being BORN again is of dire importance . And that is in CHRIST alone . So the next time
this pope or one of our many protestants get up and talk like muslims and buddist and athiests who simply do good
are saved and know GOD , CALL THEM OUT cause THAT IS A LIE . I never heard JESUS once teach
YE can deny me as THE CHRIST and yet if ya do some good and can hug and show some lovey lovey YE are saved anyway .
But that is precisely where the churches are headed . RIGHT into all out worship of a sensual love .
They have made this sensual love their GOD . And yet if we examined its love we would know it aint .
Sure it can say do good unto others , but it also accepts sins and other paths , other religoins as a valid way to GOD .
THUS ITS FALSE . Cause the last time i checked in order to be saved , ONE HAS TO and i do mean HAS TOO
BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST . But this lovey do do go spell they all preaching n teaching implies otherwise .
AND ITS A SHAM , a SHAME and A FAT OL LIE . ONE we better never heed once . KEEP THE TRUE GOSPEL
FIRMLY PLANTED and lie not to another .
Never do as oprah whimprhey did . She said JESUS IS HER WAY , but its not necessary for others to beleive on him .
SHE SOLD OUT . Many other christains are doing the same thing . THEY GONNA GET TOLD BY JESUS , I NEVER KNEW YOU .
Cause had they truly BELIEVED in HIM they would have BELEIVED HIM WHEN HE SAID , NO MAN cometh unto the Father but BY ME .
AND IF YE DENY HIM , HE WILL DENY YOU . THEY Dont even beleive that anymore . THEY call it unloving
AS i said they follow satans love . The love that leadeth to peridtion . AND we gotta know THAT AINT LOVE and that IT COMETH
NOT FROM GOD .

 

[amigo de christo]

Thank you for your much gentleness displayed to those who have persecuted you with words.
Stand fast in the faith the Lord has shown to you, be not overcome with evil. Let the sweet Spirit comfort your heart as you stand fully armored, he has got your back



It might be prudent it go back and read the “Gentle” little story she told that Mocked the Grace Of God and cleverly tried to attack those that *DO* put their Faith in the Blood Of Jesus and the Grace of God .....Discover for yourself who drew “ First Blood”...... and God does NOT have the “Back” Of ANYBODY that makes a joke out of the Grace of God That That was purchased with the Shed Blood Of His Son—— despite how “ sweetly” they present it.....

And the issue with “ ANGER?” ......take it up with Jesus.....it was HE , not ME , that out of Anger went on a Rampage throughout the Holy Temple and and whipped the wrong- doers Of His day and turned over their tables....

Their exists a thing called “ Righteous Anger”..... it’s what I have. It is completely merited!

Tell that to pope francis and so many within even the protestant realm . THEY are the ones who sold out the
true grace of God for a false lovey bag of dung lies . These people , LEST they repent and come to CHRIST
are not gonna like what they get told on the DAY of the LORD .
Cause anyone who can say Folks do not have to beleive in JESUS , but if they just have love it dont matter what religoin
or path they walk , they know God and are saved , IS A LIE FROM HELL and its one that even the protestant realm
IS DRINKING DOWN LIKE POISONED KOOL AIDE . I REFUSE ONE SIP of its junk .

 

[amigo de christo]

Good evening everyone . Let no man , woman or child heed pope francis nor any of this all inclusive false love stuff .
CLING TO CHRIST and Sound out the one true gospel that saves .
IT goes like this . What must i do to be saved ............BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST , cause nothing else is gonna save ya , PEROID .

 

[BarneyFife]

This passage is often misused to justify living a life of sin or in that we all must sin this side of Heaven on some level. However, the Lord Jesus was not advocating disobedience by any means here. The problem with the Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14 is that he did not seek forgiveness of ALL of his sins with God and he needed to do so. Jesus said that the Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, judgment, and mercy (Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42). The Pharisees also undid the Word of God by their man made traditions, too (Mark 7:13). So this shows that the Pharisee most likely had other sins that needed to be confessed before God and he was thinking he was better than others because he kept certain laws of God (But not all of them).

In fact, Jesus also told two people to sin no more (John 5:14) (John 8:11). In fact, if Jesus was advocating disobedience in His teaching, then He would be leading others into sin and that would be wrong and He could not be a perfect spotless Lamb to die for our sins.

.
.
This post was not directed at you or your beliefs as far as I can tell.
.
.

 

[Wynona]

Heaven...The absence of Fruit means that we are not following God’s Will for our lives —- it doesn’t mean that we are lost!

Okay but what did Jesus say? If we don't do God's will, will we still go to heaven?

Matthew 7:21

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Can we bear no fruit and go to heaven?


John 15:1-2

I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.


What does Jesus mean by "take away"?

John 15:5-6

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

It's not enough to mentally acknowledge Jesus. We have to obey Him. We have to love one another. We have to crucify our flesh with its passions and desires.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

.
.
Folks who, somehow, consider themselves above the law of God will, no doubt, have no problem dismissing the rules they agreed to when joining a Christian forum.
.
.
.
.

.....hypocrite....you are engaging in disrespect and goading in this very post.....Being a man, I won't go whining to the Mods about it...
.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

.
.
I sent you a PM with a link to the PM where we were both reprimanded and you promised to do better. Be aware that if you reply in the original PM, the mod will be able to see it.



m
Hey Deputy Fife! “Nip it!”

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Until one bows to the idol of hyper grace osas , many will do just that my dear sister . But many also forget about all those IFS in the bible .

Are you trying to make me REAL Angry,Amigo ? How many times do I have to tell you—— ————it ain’t “ hyper - Grace”...... it’s ** SUPER ** Hyper Grace! Don’t force me to go whining to the Mods !