The proof of OSAS

[BreadOfLife]

Oh. I stopped conversing with you some time ago...

No you didn't.
You just responded to me . . .

 

[GodsGrace]

No you didn't.
You just responded to me . . .

LOL.
This is not a conversation.
BTW, don't you EVER have anything nice to say.
My mother used to tell me:
If you open your mouth say something nice, or keep it shut.
Good advice she used to give me.

 

[BreadOfLife]

LOL.
This is not a conversation.
BTW, don't you EVER have anything nice to say.
My mother used to tell me:
If you open your mouth say something nice, or keep it shut.
Good advice she used to give me.

She should have told you not to misrepresent the Catholic Church so much.
If you think I'm "not nice" - it's only because you spew falsehoods about the Church.

For example, ByGrace and I have many wonderful exchanges - even though we don't agree doctrinally - because she doesn't lie.

 

[GodsGrace]

She should have told you not to misrepresent the Catholic Church so much.
If you think I'm "not nice" - it's only because you spew falsehoods about the Church.

For example, ByGrace and I have many wonderful exchanges - even though we don't agree doctrinally - because she doesn't lie.

I truly doubt @"ByGrace" knows Catholic doctrine.
But I do. It bothers you doesn't it?

End of conversation.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I truly doubt @"ByGrace" knows Catholic doctrine.
But I do. It bothers you doesn't it?

End of conversation.

The difference between you and her is that she may not know - but she doesn't claim to.
YOU, on the other hand, claim to know what the Church teaches but are woefully-ignorant about it on this forum.

 

[Wormwood]

It makes more than sense!
What you've stated above is what Christianity has been from the very beginning.

NOT this mumbo jumbo stuff we hear today.
As you said, take one walk down the isle and you've made it.

Our salvation is a walk. I'm getting a dry throat talking about the difference between justification and sanctification.

You've explained it perfeclty.
I use the word works and get people upset.
Whatever one wants to call it, Jesus is our Savior AND our Lord.
Everyone likes the Savior part, but few like the Lord part.

I'm always encouraged with posts such as yours!

Thank you. Yes, I think there is a significant misunderstanding among some about the nature of "works" as it relates to the NT and salvation. Clearly, we are saved by faith. Yet, Biblical faith is a faith that acts. It is not a mere assent to ideas. James makes this very clear. The "works" Paul argues against were works of the Law. Paul and others were claiming the New Covenant was superior the old. Thus, the need for works of the Law such as circumcision, washings, sacrifices, and so forth were no longer necessary. Thus, Paul is not arguing that Christianity is a faith without substance or action on our part. In fact, this is what most of his letters are about. He often is warning believers, for instance, from Corinth, that they are no longer to act as they once did. Their faith means they should change how they live. Thus, he is not speaking in contrast to grace. Rather, it is by God's grace that we are empowered to live new lives of holiness and righteousness. Thus, "works" in the NT need to be kept in context. Paul is not arguing against a faith that calls people to repent live differently when he claims that "works" do not save. He is arguing against an Old Covenant system by which many believed their righteousness was established by their liturgy and old covenant observances (i.e. I am holy and you are not because I am circumcised and you eat swine). These are the things Paul rejects. If the Law could save, there would be no need for Christ. Trying to add law to grace infers that grace is insufficient in itself. Paul will have none of this. Yet, again, he does demand that Christians who truly follow Christ turn from their old life if they really are disciples.

 

[Helen]

@Wormwood Amen, very good post, well said, good balance.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you. Yes, I think there is a significant misunderstanding among some about the nature of "works" as it relates to the NT and salvation. Clearly, we are saved by faith. Yet, Biblical faith is a faith that acts. It is not a mere assent to ideas. James makes this very clear. The "works" Paul argues against were works of the Law. Paul and others were claiming the New Covenant was superior the old. Thus, the need for works of the Law such as circumcision, washings, sacrifices, and so forth were no longer necessary. Thus, Paul is not arguing that Christianity is a faith without substance or action on our part. In fact, this is what most of his letters are about. He often is warning believers, for instance, from Corinth, that they are no longer to act as they once did. Their faith means they should change how they live. Thus, he is not speaking in contrast to grace. Rather, it is by God's grace that we are empowered to live new lives of holiness and righteousness. Thus, "works" in the NT need to be kept in context. Paul is not arguing against a faith that calls people to repent live differently when he claims that "works" do not save. He is arguing against an Old Covenant system by which many believed their righteousness was established by their liturgy and old covenant observances (i.e. I am holy and you are not because I am circumcised and you eat swine). These are the things Paul rejects. If the Law could save, there would be no need for Christ. Trying to add law to grace infers that grace is insufficient in itself. Paul will have none of this. Yet, again, he does demand that Christians who truly follow Christ turn from their old life if they really are disciples.

Well, as you can see, there's nothing to add to the above.
You've said it perfectly and completely. I've highlighted what I feel most strongly about...

Works most certainly refer to works of the LAW.
Under grace, we are still required to keep God's Laws. God has not changed His requirements.

It's just that now the New Covenant has made keeping HIS laws by the power of the Holy Spirit's help and the love we feel for Christ who gave His life for us.

No Covenant abolished the previous --- it only made it better or added to it or made it more complete.

We cannot abolish all covenants because of one line in Hebrews that states that if the old Covenant were good we would not need the New one.
Hebrews 8:7
The New Covenant is better but it does not abolish the Old Covenant.
God is still God.

Thanks for a great post.

 

[Wormwood]

Well, as you can see, there's nothing to add to the above.
You've said it perfectly and completely. I've highlighted what I feel most strongly about...

Works most certainly refer to works of the LAW.
Under grace, we are still required to keep God's Laws. God has not changed His requirements.

It's just that now the New Covenant has made keeping HIS laws by the power of the Holy Spirit's help and the love we feel for Christ who gave His life for us.

No Covenant abolished the previous --- it only made it better or added to it or made it more complete.

We cannot abolish all covenants because of one line in Hebrews that states that if the old Covenant were good we would not need the New one.
Hebrews 8:7
The New Covenant is better but it does not abolish the Old Covenant.
God is still God.

Thanks for a great post.

GodsGrace,

Thank you for your kind response. The only caveat I would add is that I, myself, wouldn't argue that we are "required" to keep the Old Covenant. First that would suggest that we are required to maintain the dietary laws, sacrificial laws, etc. I do not believe this as I understand Christ to have fulfilled the law and to have established a New Covenant by his blood. Certainly, as people who love God and are empowered by the Spirit, we are called to live holy lives. But holiness, in my estimation, is determined by love, mercy and devotion to Christ....not adherence to OT practices. Yet, I am sure your understanding of the Law is that its fundamental principle is to love God and your neighbor. So, in that sense, I am in complete agreement. I just offer the word of clarification because I believe it is easy for Christians to get caught up in diets, observing holy days and other OT practices as "required" to please God. I think this mindset does not accurately portray the NT teaching on Christian faithfulness and adherence to the New Covenant. Sorry if I am nitpicking. I am not trying to be argumentative. Just want to provide clarification