The proof of OSAS

[Rollo Tamasi]

No!
We agree that someone won't lose their salvation the last 10 minutes of their life. It's crrrrazy!

Oh, you can get saved in 10 minutes but not lose it in ten minutes.
Show me the Scripture on that one please.
I want to share it with everyone all over the internet.
I'm sure it will be trending in a matter of minutes.

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh, you can get saved in 10 minutes but not lose it in ten minutes.
Show me the Scripture on that one please.
I want to share it with everyone all over the internet.
I'm sure it will be trending in a matter of minutes.

I'll be it's in there somewhere.
I'll BE BACK!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

famous words, "I shall return".....

 

[Richard_oti]

CLICK TO EXPAND

<chuckle> As @bbyrd009 has already spoken of this, I shall say no more. BTW: You stated something to the effect of that you don't have the time, which could be perceived as your time is more valuable than others time. I shall re-construct this [not that it is that hard, but it still requires that little bit extra]:

You can disagree, however Hebrews 6:4-6 is speaking about Jewish believers that were considering going back to Judaism. Of course some sects of Christianity will not accept this due to their belief in eternal security.

I know that is one of the popular takes upon this. However the author of Hebrews offers one of the strongest warnings in striving against sin, to the shedding one's own blood. And we know that sin is transgression of the law. Further, the author of Hebrews also states that there remains a sabbatismos unto the people of "God", "as God did from His". Those hardly strike me as a warning against returning to Judaism. Not laying the foundation of "repentance", from dead works. Would you account the ten as "dead works"? And upholding the 10, is not laying a foundation of repentance.

To clarify, the 10 commandments of God and the commandments of Jesus are the same. Jesus did not make up any new commandments -- He just clarified the old ones. And by no means do I follow the 613 being a Christian person and not an O.T. Jew.

Not all of the 613 would be applicable to you anyway. As Hillel the Great once said: "the rest are the explanation".

I cannot have returned to the law since I come not from the law.
I've been called a cake eater, a worker for, a legalist, a pharisee.
If this is what one has to be called because they believe Jesus commands are to be followed -- so be it.

Indeed.

Most sin is willful. Very rarely do we commit a sin that we do not know is sin. I must turn away from God to be lost, we will always have sin in our lives - unfortunately the sin nature is under submission, but is not radicated.

Of which as stated above, the author of Hebrews gives us one of the more stern warnings in that regard.

<snip>

You're doing a lot of quoting from the O.T.
I'd like to remind you that we do not belong to the Old Covenant but the New Covenant.

2 out of 9, is hardly what I would consider a lot. And the reason, was to show from where the author of Hebrews was speaking. The "foundation" so to speak. One of those that are the explanation.

The two are out of the OT. The ten are out of the OT. The difference, is that one was written on tablets of stone, and the other is written upon tablets of flesh, upon the heart.

And as such, the commands of God must still be followed, as best as possible, this has not changed -- HOW we keep the commandments has changed.

Not really. Was it not intended as such from the beginning? If that was the manner in which it was intended, then it has not changed.

 

[Stranger]

Do you believe if a person falls away, they were never saved to begin with?

As to 'if a person falls away', I would say you always have those who mix with Christians and go to church, who are not Christians. And many times it will be these that you see as fallen away.

As to 'if a believer falls away, was he saved to begin with?', yes he was saved to begin with, and is still saved, but has fallen away.

'Fallen away' is certainly a warning to believers, with consequences, but is not a loss of salvation.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

<chuckle> As @bbyrd009 has already spoken of this, I shall say no more. BTW: You stated something to the effect of that you don't have the time, which could be perceived as your time is more valuable than others time. I shall re-construct this [not that it is that hard, but it still requires that little bit extra]:

I aplogogize if that's how it sounded. If I didn't think it wise to be here, I wouldn't be here. I have a sick husband that requires attention. If he's watching documentaries, then I'm a free woman !
I'm also on another forum I have difficulty leaving, but I like it here too...so...

I know that is one of the popular takes upon this. However the author of Hebrews offers one of the strongest warnings in striving against sin, to the shedding one's own blood. And we know that sin is transgression of the law. Further, the author of Hebrews also states that there remains a sabbatismos unto the people of "God", "as God did from His". Those hardly strike me as a warning against returning to Judaism. Not laying the foundation of "repentance", from dead works. Would you account the ten as "dead works"? And upholding the 10, is not laying a foundation of repentance.

I agree with what you said about Hebrews, and in every other letter Paul makes mention of being in Christ and not being lawless. Many miss these verses of his, but I happen to catch everything, the good and the bad. Sabbatismos must mean Sabbath. So are you saying that we can REST from our works? I don't want to address returning to Judaism. That was not my intent. Judaism did not work. But God does expect good deeds from us. Ephesians 2:10 would be perfect for this. He does expect us to work FOR HIM. NOT for our salvatiion.

Not all of the 613 would be applicable to you anyway. As Hillel the Great once said: "the rest are the explanation".

Looks like some are the explanation.
Exodus 23:19 comes to mind and I wouldn't know how to categorize that - boiling a kid in the mother's milk (a goat) - but it's not important to me. I said the 613 did not apply to me. Only the ten - and Jesus did not add any new commands. He also just explained.

The two are out of the OT. The ten are out of the OT. The difference, is that one was written on tablets of stone, and the other is written upon tablets of flesh, upon the heart.

Yes. This is the difference.

Not really. Was it not intended as such from the beginning? If that was the manner in which it was intended, then it has not changed.

OK. I hate these quote things. Can't we just talk? I don't know to what you're saying "Not really."

What you're referring to "Not really" is when I stated that the Law to be followed is the same (God's Law) BUT HOW we follow it has changed.
You're saying this is not true.
Why not? It was not possible to keep the Law before..
Why do you suppose it's possible now? Is it not precisely because it has moved from the tablet of stone into our heart? (Jeremiah, Ezekiel)
What has made it move into our heart?
Perhaps the love we have for the One who died for us, to save us?
Our love for Jesus makes it POSSIBLE for us to follow the Law, which is impossible otherwise.
Does this mean we will never sin? No. But our sin nature is kept under submission and no longer rules.

You confuse me. I never know whether we agree or not.
But it's all good.

 

[GodsGrace]

As to 'if a person falls away', I would say you always have those who mix with Christians and go to church, who are not Christians. And many times it will be these that you see as fallen away.

As to 'if a believer falls away, was he saved to begin with?', yes he was saved to begin with, and is still saved, but has fallen away.

'Fallen away' is certainly a warning to believers, with consequences, but is not a loss of salvation.

Stranger

Oh my.
You go way beyond what most believe to be true.
The ones that I consider as falling away MAY be those in your first paragraph. This is because a person could say words, but not have God in their heart. So, yes, I have to go by what is heard by my ear. Only God knows the heart. How about someone who was speaking in tongues? I don't care to dwell on this too long since it's your last paragraph that has left me a bit shocked.

If one falls away, he definitely has lost salvation.
How could it be otherwise?

For it is BY FAITH you have been saved.
Ephesians 2:8

If faith is required to be saved,
Faith is required to STAY saved.

Otherwise what is it that keeps us saved?
Why would Paul BEG us to keep the faith, to hold on, to live a Christianly life?

To fall away is to fall away from something...
WHAT is that something?
Is it not our salvation?

 

[bbyrd009]

I thought @GodsGrace did that very well.
...in other words.." One of the family"
You are in the family if you can hear Fathers voice. "My sheep hear my voice and a stranger will do not follow."
Simple...that is US ...no denomination, but those out of all walks of life who hear His Voice.= Family= Us= Just like in the Mafia.

hmm

disregarding the Mafia thing--let's just call it a semantics issue there--i would mostly like to raise the issue of how we like automatically include ourselves in this "group," as you have done? You get that the point of the "I am doing God's will" meme is that even obviously evil-doers claim to be following God, iow if even they can justify this, how much easier might it be for someone without overt sin?

 

[bbyrd009]

Bono:
There's only us...

Want to see a cool video from a skyscraper in NYC?
It used to be the NBC bldg. Don't know what they call it now.
Top of the Rock?

I thought @GodsGrace did that very well.
...in other words.." One of the family"
You are in the family if you can hear Fathers voice. "My sheep hear my voice and a stranger will do not follow."
Simple...that is US ...no denomination, but those out of all walks of life who hear His Voice.= Family= Us= Just like in the Mafia.

but no Muslims allowed, right?

 

[bbyrd009]

If I WAS exposed to it, I'd turn the pastor down !

yes, well, that was when i realized that one of us was nuts myself, but this is what we are dealing with in Western Christianity right now, this spirit

 

[bbyrd009]

And it appears that other people in the end times political arena agree with me.

"Christians" contemplating the perspectives of those in the "end times political arena" lol

 

[bbyrd009]

Of course the guy from The Message bible is going to speak nicely of Bono. Bono got millions of his "book" sold, The Message.

hmm, didn't know that, interesting

 

[bbyrd009]

It's a modern day bible written in modern day language.

it's a mess, is what it is, wadr

 

[bbyrd009]

rytahs

i'm not getting a relevant return for this?

 

[bbyrd009]

Oh, you can get saved in 10 minutes but not lose it in ten minutes.
Show me the Scripture on that one please.
I want to share it with everyone all over the internet.
I'm sure it will be trending in a matter of minutes.

many will cry "Lord, Lord."

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

i'm not getting a relevant return for this?

you have been blinded to the truth

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

many will cry "Lord, Lord."

Then you must be post-trib

 

[Stranger]

Oh my.
You go way beyond what most believe to be true.
The ones that I consider as falling away MAY be those in your first paragraph. This is because a person could say words, but not have God in their heart. So, yes, I have to go by what is heard by my ear. Only God knows the heart. How about someone who was speaking in tongues? I don't care to dwell on this too long since it's your last paragraph that has left me a bit shocked.

If one falls away, he definitely has lost salvation.
How could it be otherwise?

For it is BY FAITH you have been saved.
Ephesians 2:8

If faith is required to be saved,
Faith is required to STAY saved.

Otherwise what is it that keeps us saved?
Why would Paul BEG us to keep the faith, to hold on, to live a Christianly life?

To fall away is to fall away from something...
WHAT is that something?
Is it not our salvation?

Didn't mean to shock you, and I do feel more explanation is needed. If you have the time, under the heading 'Bible Study' I have a thread called 'Explanation of the Warning in Heb. 6:1-8'. It will explain the questions you have asked.

Stranger

 

[Marymog]

Yes, I've watched the videos, heard the stories, debated the debates but no one, not anyone, has ever provided convincing proof that OSAS is wrong.
And why would they want to?
Why is it important to tell someone that God's promise isn't true, but you have to continue to work your way to heaven to make it there.

Hi Rollo,

I agree with you. Once we are saved I believe we should sin boldly and sin often since we have no fear of going to hell.

I am just having trouble figuring out at what point I am saved.

Can you tell me how I will know when I have been saved?

IHS...Mary

 

[bbyrd009]

you have been blinded to the truth

i'm not following how not getting an answer from google on what the acronym "rytahs" stands for is synonymous with your judgement of me, sorry. Can you rephrase? ty

many will cry "Lord, Lord."

and that you will not address this, but instead choose that i already understand, i guess :/