The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]

[iamlamad]

Save your breath REX

Read that whole thing carefully and it as much as says that BECAUSE OF Israels unbeleif and disobedience THE GENTILES have the opportunity to receive salvation

Their disobedience means our salvation ...... until the full number of Gentiles are come in .... then it is all about Israel again.

If you chop down the olive tree Israel you will fall with it ..... because you hang on the branch grafted into the olive tree.

You may hate Israel but God relents with them in the end .... He keeps his covenant with them .... for his own reasons and his holy name .... not because they deserve it or anything

Just like you and i do not deserve anything either .... remember how often Christians are disobedient

We are worse than Israel sometimes.

God keeps his covenant with the Church and his covenant with Israel

Get over it.

None of us deserve anything whatsoever

WOW! Well said! He loved us even when we were yet sinners.

Lamad

 

[veteran]

The ten lost tribes of Israel subject is a huge part of the matter in Romans 11. In Isaiah 59, one place Apostle Paul was quoting Rom.11:25-27 from, it includes a condition, those in Jacob that turn from transgression. Thus only those of Israel that turn to Christ Jesus will be saved. None are saved just because of status of birth position.

The ten tribes of Israel, the majority... of Israelites, were separated from their brethren the Jews long ago around 540 B.C.

The ten tribes were taken captive north of Babylon to the lands of the Medes and northern Assyria. The Behistun Rock in northern Iraq still stands today as a witness to their captivity there. The ten tribes lost... their heritage as part of Israel, as God foretold through His prophet Hosea.

The long sought missing link to where the majority of the ten tribes of Israel went and who they became was discovered in the Assyrian Tablets. Professor Leroy Waterman, a professor of Oriental languages at the University of Michigan in the 1930's translated from the Assyrian Tablets one of the names which Assyrians used for the ten tribes, which is where the name Cimmerian originated.

The field of Anthropology has much information about the Cimmerian peoples, since they were the main branch of Caucasian people that migrated westward through the Caucasus Mountains and around the Black Sea into Asia Minor and Europe and became the progenators of those western nations of history. They later became known as Celts, Gauls, Normans, Norsk, Germani, Franks, etc., the peoples that settled Asia Minor and Europe, which just so happens to be where Christ sent His Apostles to after His death and resurrection to preach The Gospel.

So, many of the Caucasian peoples are actually ten lost tribe Israelites, even though they became Gentiles scattered among Gentiles, and living as Gentiles. And they still... make up the majority of Israelites on earth today. Those of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi make up the other part of Israel, known in God's Word as the "house of Judah". The ten tribes after the split were called the "house of Israel" in God's Word. They are to be joined back together at Christ's second coming, which is what the Ezekiel 37 chapter of the two sticks is about.

Thus Judah (or Jews) have no more claim or right over others in Christ Jesus. And ten lost tribe Israelites have no more claim than other Gentile believers of the nations. All those in Christ Jesus are to be of one Body. Christ is going to join all the Body together when He comes. Lost ten tribe Israelites will wake up to their heritage then also, some in shame like the unbelieving Jews.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

It's not that GOD'S WILL is not known; it's that GOD'S PLAN is not given to be known!

And, God's PLAN for the World and this 7000-year segment of time (more or less) is not the same thing as "His Plan of Salvation,"

I think Retrobyter has made a profoundly important statement above

Most of our debates and disagreements have to do with what we think Gods overall plans are

God has not told us everything about those plans .

We should not pretend we know.

 

[veteran]

I think Retrobyter has made a profoundly important statement above

Most of our debates and disagreements have to do with what we think Gods overall plans are

God has not told us everything about those plans .

We should not pretend we know.

Those who do not... know... shouldn't be jealous of those who do from The LORD giving it to them.

There's an easy way to correct that jealousy; get into God's Word chapter by chapter, line upon line, asking Him for understanding in the Name of Jesus Christ.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, veteran.

Those who do not... know... shouldn't be jealous of those who do from The LORD giving it to them.

There's an easy way to correct that jealousy; get into God's Word chapter by chapter, line upon line, asking Him for understanding in the Name of Jesus Christ.

I've got a better idea: Those who THINK they know should STOP PRETENDING!



Ecclesiastes 3:11
11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
KJV

Just face it! There are just some things that God is NOT TELLING US! It's NONE OF OUR BUSINESS! And, no matter HOW much one studies, that fact will NOT change!

 

[veteran]

Shabbat shalom, veteran.


I've got a better idea: Those who THINK they know should STOP PRETENDING!



Ecclesiastes 3:11
11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
KJV

Just face it! There are just some things that God is NOT TELLING US! It's NONE OF OUR BUSINESS! And, no matter HOW much one studies, that fact will NOT change!

Just because there's much that you don't know (which you should if you claim to be a Christian under Christ Jesus), that's no reason for you to get jealous too.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, veteran.

Just because there's much that you don't know (which you should if you claim to be a Christian under Christ Jesus), that's no reason for you to get jealous too.

LOL! "Jealous?" Of YOUR knowledge? I don't think so. There are too many inconsistencies in your schema, and right from the git-go, too! I mean, just look at your interpretation of Matthew 24! That says it all.

No, it does no damage to believe that God has reserved some knowledge to Himself alone; all we need to do is learn to TRUST HIM!

 

[veteran]

Shabbat shalom, veteran.


LOL! "Jealous?" Of YOUR knowledge? I don't think so. There are too many inconsistencies in your schema, and right from the git-go, too! I mean, just look at your interpretation of Matthew 24! That says it all.

No, it does no damage to believe that God has reserved some knowledge to Himself alone; all we need to do is learn to TRUST HIM!

You mean you don't like the 7 signs that Christ gave His CHURCH about the events of the very end per Matt.24?

They just happen to be the same signs He gave in Rev.6 with the seals.

But oh yeah, you're part of that Preterist crowd if I recall, the group of MEN's doctrines that believe the Matthew 24 Scripture was already PAST history! But that doctrine is nothing but another stupid doctrine of men, created by men, and espoused by men with no Scriptural substance to back it.

As a matter of fact, I have turned many hard-line Preterists away... from that doctrine of men just by getting them to read the details of the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. as recorded by the Jewish historian Josephus! The Romans NEVER got possession of the temple, it burned down, so they did not setup ANY "abomination of desolation" in the temple as per the Daniel prophecy requirement!

What is really crazy about Preterism, is how they will falsely claim the Matthew 24 Scripture has been fulfilled when it includes the SECOND COMING OF JESUS CHRIST WHICH IS STILL FUTURE TO US TODAY! Clearly, those ideas show they spring from the false Jews who HATE Jesus of Nazareth.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Those who do not... know... shouldn't be jealous of those who do from The LORD giving it to them.

There's an easy way to correct that jealousy; get into God's Word chapter by chapter, line upon line, asking Him for understanding in the Name of Jesus Christ.

You realize you are wanting everyone to tow the line with what you believe

You are not alone , millions of Christians feel the same way about their pet doctrines

However , mankind's pet doctrines will not change God's plans

We would be wise to review Gods plans for His chosen Nation Israel

He is going to do it His way regardless

Best wishes

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

You mean you don't like the 7 signs that Christ gave His CHURCH about the events of the very end per Matt.24?

They just happen to be the same signs He gave in Rev.6 with the seals.

But oh yeah, you're part of that Preterist crowd if I recall, the group of MEN's doctrines that believe the Matthew 24 Scripture was already PAST history! But that doctrine is nothing but another stupid doctrine of men, created by men, and espoused by men with no Scriptural substance to back it.

As a matter of fact, I have turned many hard-line Preterists away... from that doctrine of men just by getting them to read the details of the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. as recorded by the Jewish historian Josephus! The Romans NEVER got possession of the temple, it burned down, so they did not setup ANY "abomination of desolation" in the temple as per the Daniel prophecy requirement!

What is really crazy about Preterism, is how they will falsely claim the Matthew 24 Scripture has been fulfilled when it includes the SECOND COMING OF JESUS CHRIST WHICH IS STILL FUTURE TO US TODAY! Clearly, those ideas show they spring from the false Jews who HATE Jesus of Nazareth.

Yeah! JUST like that! "7 signs" indeed. What a doltish thing to say! Furthermore, you're getting a little cranky in your old age! Why is it that anyone who disagrees with YOUR point of view is following a "doctrine of men," but YOU always speak the "Truth of God?"

ONCE AGAIN, I have to stop and correct you: I am NOT a "preterist," which implies a "FULL preterist." I am a "PARTIAL preterist" if I'm a "preterist" at all! Technically, I am a FUTURIST! SAME AS YOU, BUBBA! I, however, am not BLIND to the fact that PART of what Yeshua` said in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 occurred and was fulfilled IN THE PAST! It is NOT all in the future, particularly in OUR future! I am in full agreement with you that "THE SECOND COMING OF JESUS CHRIST ... IS STILL FUTURE TO US TODAY!" So, get off your soapbox! You've erected a straw man!

Oh, and once again, you have mis-read Dani'el recorded prophecies. There is NOT going to be a "setting up of an abomination of desolation in the temple!" If you're reading that in Dani'el 11, you missed it, because that prophecy is now HISTORY, fulfilled on 25 Kislev 168 B.C. And, if you're reading that in Dani'el 9, you have COMPLETELY mis-read Dani'el 9 and cascaded the error into Matthew 24! Although Yeshua` DID refer to Dani'el 9, He was NOT alluding to an antichrist setting up an abomination of desolation in the temple! He was talking about the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D!

Oh, and I LOVE to read the works of Josephus. I find him a fairly honest historian (a rare thing) because he even talked about how he took proceeds from the taxes and got in trouble for it. He was a legate for Rome in charge of some cities in the Galiyl (Galilee). The reason he was even IN Jerusalem was that Rome sent him to Jerusalem, to some of his family and acquaintances in an attempt to quell the rebellion before it got out of hand!

 

[veteran]

Shalom, veteran.


Yeah! JUST like that! "7 signs" indeed. What a doltish thing to say! Furthermore, you're getting a little cranky in your old age! Why is it that anyone who disagrees with YOUR point of view is following a "doctrine of men," but YOU always speak the "Truth of God?"

Well, it's easy! If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it probably... is a duck.

That's how easy it is to decipher the false doctrines you are on. All it requires is actually KEEPING to The Scriptures, and not the babal of men's doctrines. Anyone... who stays true to God's Word as written can recognize a duck by any other name. And you do a whole... lot of quacking!


ONCE AGAIN, I have to stop and correct you: I am NOT a "preterist," which implies a "FULL preterist." I am a "PARTIAL preterist" if I'm a "preterist" at all! Technically, I am a FUTURIST! SAME AS YOU, BUBBA! I, however, am not BLIND to the fact that PART of what Yeshua` said in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 occurred and was fulfilled IN THE PAST! It is NOT all in the future, particularly in OUR future! I am in full agreement with you that "THE SECOND COMING OF JESUS CHRIST ... IS STILL FUTURE TO US TODAY!" So, get off your soapbox! You've erected a straw man!

If you adhere to the idea that the prophecies given in Matthew 24 was past history, and the supposition that it was fulfilled by the events of 70 A.D. Jerusalem, then... you ARE a Preterist.

There's actually only one way to understand that Matthew 24 chapter's prophecies, because it is hard-linked to the Seals in Revelation 6, and the final "one week" of the Book of Daniel and its associated events, and that's as events specifically meant for the very end of this world in the LAST generation that will see Jesus' second coming.


Oh, and once again, you have mis-read Dani'el recorded prophecies. There is NOT going to be a "setting up of an abomination of desolation in the temple!" If you're reading that in Dani'el 11, you missed it, because that prophecy is now HISTORY, fulfilled on 25 Kislev 168 B.C. And, if you're reading that in Dani'el 9, you have COMPLETELY mis-read Dani'el 9 and cascaded the error into Matthew 24! Although Yeshua` DID refer to Dani'el 9, He was NOT alluding to an antichrist setting up an abomination of desolation in the temple! He was talking about the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D!

You're the one that continually misreads... the prophecies in Daniel, denying... the final "one week" in relation to the prophecies given in the Daniel 11 & 12 chapters for the very end of this world. We've been there before, remember???

There WILL be a setting up of the "abomination of desolation" in the future built temple in Jerusalem by the Orthodox Jews that are deceived! That's especially what the coming Antichrist is going to cause to happen there, just like what Antiochus IV did back in 165-170 B.C. Jerusalem! Only difference will be the coming Antichrist your deceived brethren, and possibly you also... will believe on as The True Messiah. All I ask is that you remember my warning to you about that when the time comes. You can hate me all you like, but you shouldn't hate the warning if you claim Jesus of Nazareth as your Saviour.

And once again, the placing of the "abomination" in Daniel is about the setting up of an idol in false worship. It is NOT about destruction of the temple. We ALREADY have had the pattern set for the "abomination" by Antiochus IV who did that very thing in 170 B.C. Jerusalem. But Jesus gave His warning about the "abomination of desolation" in Matt.24 about 200 years AFTER Antiochus had already been dead! That means to look for a yet future... example of that SAME kind of thing involving a later temple in Jerusalem, the one your unbelieving brethren are preparing to build in Jerusalem today!!!

 

[iamlamad]

Shalom, veteran.


Yeah! JUST like that! "7 signs" indeed. What a doltish thing to say! Furthermore, you're getting a little cranky in your old age! Why is it that anyone who disagrees with YOUR point of view is following a "doctrine of men," but YOU always speak the "Truth of God?"

Well, it's easy! If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it probably... is a duck.

That's how easy it is to decipher the false doctrines you are on. All it requires is actually KEEPING to The Scriptures, and not the babal of men's doctrines. Anyone... who stays true to God's Word as written can recognize a duck by any other name. And you do a whole... lot of quacking!


ONCE AGAIN, I have to stop and correct you: I am NOT a "preterist," which implies a "FULL preterist." I am a "PARTIAL preterist" if I'm a "preterist" at all! Technically, I am a FUTURIST! SAME AS YOU, BUBBA! I, however, am not BLIND to the fact that PART of what Yeshua` said in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 occurred and was fulfilled IN THE PAST! It is NOT all in the future, particularly in OUR future! I am in full agreement with you that "THE SECOND COMING OF JESUS CHRIST ... IS STILL FUTURE TO US TODAY!" So, get off your soapbox! You've erected a straw man!

If you adhere to the idea that the prophecies given in Matthew 24 was past history, and the supposition that it was fulfilled by the events of 70 A.D. Jerusalem, then... you ARE a Preterist.

There's actually only one way to understand that Matthew 24 chapter's prophecies, because it is hard-linked to the Seals in Revelation 6, and the final "one week" of the Book of Daniel and its associated events, and that's as events specifically meant for the very end of this world in the LAST generation that will see Jesus' second coming.


Oh, and once again, you have mis-read Dani'el recorded prophecies. There is NOT going to be a "setting up of an abomination of desolation in the temple!" If you're reading that in Dani'el 11, you missed it, because that prophecy is now HISTORY, fulfilled on 25 Kislev 168 B.C. And, if you're reading that in Dani'el 9, you have COMPLETELY mis-read Dani'el 9 and cascaded the error into Matthew 24! Although Yeshua` DID refer to Dani'el 9, He was NOT alluding to an antichrist setting up an abomination of desolation in the temple! He was talking about the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D!

You're the one that continually misreads... the prophecies in Daniel, denying... the final "one week" in relation to the prophecies given in the Daniel 11 & 12 chapters for the very end of this world. We've been there before, remember???

There WILL be a setting up of the "abomination of desolation" in the future built temple in Jerusalem by the Orthodox Jews that are deceived! That's especially what the coming Antichrist is going to cause to happen there, just like what Antiochus IV did back in 165-170 B.C. Jerusalem! Only difference will be the coming Antichrist your deceived brethren, and possibly you also... will believe on as The True Messiah. All I ask is that you remember my warning to you about that when the time comes. You can hate me all you like, but you shouldn't hate the warning if you claim Jesus of Nazareth as your Saviour.

And once again, the placing of the "abomination" in Daniel is about the setting up of an idol in false worship. It is NOT about destruction of the temple. We ALREADY have had the pattern set for the "abomination" by Antiochus IV who did that very thing in 170 B.C. Jerusalem. But Jesus gave His warning about the "abomination of desolation" in Matt.24 about 200 years AFTER Antiochus had already been dead! That means to look for a yet future... example of that SAME kind of thing involving a later temple in Jerusalem, the one your unbelieving brethren are preparing to build in Jerusalem today!!!

I must agree with you in part here, Veteran. I don't think there is anything in Matt. 24 directly about AD 70, the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of Israel to the nations.

However, you still have not understood where we are NOW in Revelation. That relates to the seals which you think are in the 70th week.

I will ask you the same three questions God asked me about Rev. chapters 4 & 5.....

1. Why was I not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father in the throne room? There are several verses that say that is where I went to be.

2. Why was "no man found" in the search John watched for one worthy to break the seals? If you read ahead, you will see I became worthy as soon as I rose from the dead. So why was I not found worthy in this search John watched?

3. Why was the Holy Spirit seen in the throne room in chapter 4, when I said I would send Him down as soon as I ascended?

Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand the timing of the first seals. Your timing is almost 2000 years off.

Lamad
Retrobyter, did you never read?

Rev 13
14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

Where do you imagine this beast will be placed?

 

[veteran]

I must agree with you in part here, Veteran. I don't think there is anything in Matt. 24 directly about AD 70, the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of Israel to the nations.

However, you still have not understood where we are NOW in Revelation. That relates to the seals which you think are in the 70th week.

Oh I understand where we are today in Christ's Book of Revelation, all to well.



I will ask you the same three questions God asked me about Rev. chapters 4 & 5.....

1. Why was I not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father in the throne room? There are several verses that say that is where I went to be.

2. Why was "no man found" in the search John watched for one worthy to break the seals? If you read ahead, you will see I became worthy as soon as I rose from the dead. So why was I not found worthy in this search John watched?

3. Why was the Holy Spirit seen in the throne room in chapter 4, when I said I would send Him down as soon as I ascended?

Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand the timing of the first seals. Your timing is almost 2000 years off.

Lamad


Where did you get those questions from, some made-up Church Quarterly document made up by God knows who?

Sorry, but Christ's Church is NOT raptured to Heaven in Rev.4. His Church is STILL on earth all the way up through the 6th Vial. John was taken in the Spirit to see visions of Heavenly future while his flesh body remained on the Isle of Patmos in prison. That's your so-called Rapture.

Rev 4:10
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
(KJV)

How is it those 24 elders ALREADY have "crowns" when the rewards aren't handed out until after Christ's second coming?

Oh, the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrines of men have no problem with modifying Scripture, I forgot.

 

[iamlamad]

I must agree with you in part here, Veteran. I don't think there is anything in Matt. 24 directly about AD 70, the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of Israel to the nations.

However, you still have not understood where we are NOW in Revelation. That relates to the seals which you think are in the 70th week.

Oh I understand where we are today in Christ's Book of Revelation, all to well.



I will ask you the same three questions God asked me about Rev. chapters 4 & 5.....

1. Why was I not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father in the throne room? There are several verses that say that is where I went to be.

2. Why was "no man found" in the search John watched for one worthy to break the seals? If you read ahead, you will see I became worthy as soon as I rose from the dead. So why was I not found worthy in this search John watched?

3. Why was the Holy Spirit seen in the throne room in chapter 4, when I said I would send Him down as soon as I ascended?

Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand the timing of the first seals. Your timing is almost 2000 years off.

Lamad


Where did you get those questions from, some made-up Church Quarterly document made up by God knows who?

Sorry, but Christ's Church is NOT raptured to Heaven in Rev.4. His Church is STILL on earth all the way up through the 6th Vial. John was taken in the Spirit to see visions of Heavenly future while his flesh body remained on the Isle of Patmos in prison. That's your so-called Rapture.

Rev 4:10
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
(KJV)

How is it those 24 elders ALREADY have "crowns" when the rewards aren't handed out until after Christ's second coming?

Oh, the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrines of men have no problem with modifying Scripture, I forgot.

God spoke to me and I heard His voice and His words. Those are HIS Questions. I see you could not answer them. I couldn't either for some time. I had to have His help.

You are right, it is terrible exegesis to try to make Rev. 4:1 the rapture. Most pretrib's should be ashamed of themselves on that one! However, I too know that is not the rapture. As I have said before on this formum, John SAW the raptured church in Rev. 7, around the throne. Yet, you want to find the rapture somewhere in Rev. 19. As I said, there IS a gathering in Chapter 19, but I trust you will not be a part of it. And you want to blame pretrib for making things up?

Do you remember in Matt. 27, when Jesus rose, some of the Old Testament saints rose? THEY are the elders John saw in chapter 4. They have been in heaven with real bodies since Jesus' days. I Suspect Abraham is one of them. I suspect Moses is another. Perhaps Adam. He would be the MOST elder.

I will tell you what God told me: until you can answer these three questions correctly, you will never understand that vision in chapters 4 & 5.

Lamad.

 

[veteran]

God spoke to me and I heard His voice and His words. Those are HIS Questions. I see you could not answer them. I couldn't either for some time. I had to have His help.

You are right, it is terrible exegesis to try to make Rev. 4:1 the rapture. Most pretrib's should be ashamed of themselves on that one! However, I too know that is not the rapture. As I have said before on this formum, John SAW the raptured church in Rev. 7, around the throne. Yet, you want to find the rapture somewhere in Rev. 19. As I said, there IS a gathering in Chapter 19, but I trust you will not be a part of it. And you want to blame pretrib for making things up?

Do you remember in Matt. 27, when Jesus rose, some of the Old Testament saints rose? THEY are the elders John saw in chapter 4. They have been in heaven with real bodies since Jesus' days. I Suspect Abraham is one of them. I suspect Moses is another. Perhaps Adam. He would be the MOST elder.

I will tell you what God told me: until you can answer these three questions correctly, you will never understand that vision in chapters 4 & 5.

Lamad.

You're a FALSE PROPHET!

GOD did NOT speak to you! Another spirit did.

 

[iamlamad]

You're a FALSE PROPHET!

GOD did NOT speak to you! Another spirit did.

I know who speaks to me, for I know His voice.

It is not wise to impune the Spirit behind a fellow believer. You could be saying bad things about the Holy Spirit. In this case you certainly are. Of course you have a free will and can say anything; all I am saying is, it is not wise.

You say what you say only because your doctrine is being challenged. I am not the only one here that knows many of your theories are faulty. One day soon you will find out just how far off you are. But I will have flown away. I doubt seriously if I will even think of you during my 7 plus years in heaven. There will be too many good things to see and hear....real TRUTH...which is very hard to come by here. I may see you on the fiery sea of glass, but I doubt it.

Lamad

 

[ENOCH2010]

I know who speaks to me, for I know His voice.

It is not wise to impune the Spirit behind a fellow believer. You could be saying bad things about the Holy Spirit. In this case you certainly are. Of course you have a free will and can say anything; all I am saying is, it is not wise.

You say what you say only because your doctrine is being challenged. I am not the only one here that knows many of your theories are faulty. One day soon you will find out just how far off you are. But I will have flown away. I doubt seriously if I will even think of you during my 7 plus years in heaven. There will be too many good things to see and hear....real TRUTH...which is very hard to come by here. I may see you on the fiery sea of glass, but I doubt it.

Lamad

Lamad where do you get off telling people they have to believe the pre-trib doctrine to be with the Lord. That is a lie and you should be ashamed of yourself for saying such a thing. If the post-trib believers are wrong about the rapture and it happens pre-trib, they will be pleasantly surprised, and get to meet the Lord before they thought. If the pre-trib believers are wrong about their beliefs and have to endure to the end, they want be pleasantly surprised, they will be disappointed. Salvation has nothing to do with which end time doctrine a person believes, salvation, only depends on whether a person accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior

 

[iamlamad]

Lamad where do you get off telling people they have to believe the pre-trib doctrine to be with the Lord. That is a lie and you should be ashamed of yourself for saying such a thing. If the post-trib believers are wrong about the rapture and it happens pre-trib, they will be pleasantly surprised, and get to meet the Lord before they thought. If the pre-trib believers are wrong about their beliefs and have to endure to the end, they want be pleasantly surprised, they will be disappointed. Salvation has nothing to do with which end time doctrine a person believes, salvation, only depends on whether a person accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior

I have never said that. OF COURSE those left behind can see the Lord, but they will have to LOSE THEIR HEAD to see Him. No, Sorry, God will not go against someone's will - if they are determined to face the Beast, God will allow them exactly what they are believing God for. God is a FAITH God. Everything we get from heaven we get by faith. The rapture will be the same thing. If people have faith they will see the Beast, they will see Him. I am convinced they will be left behind. Why do you imagine the devil fights pretrib so hard? He WANTS many to be left behind.

God has made a way of escape; yet postribbers scoff at it. Why would you even think God would take them, when they are not believing in it? Always remember the parts of the gospel people make fun of, God makes SURE they never see it. It could be the baptism, with the Holy Spirit, it could be supernatural healing, and it could be he pretrib rapture. Don't be so sure people scoffing at it, making fun of it, will be allowed to partake of it. I could be wrong, I am only telling you what I believe. If God has mercy on those who scoff at His way of escape, then we can thank Him for His mercy. However, I don't believe this is the case.

IF a believer is left behind, that certainly does not mean He loses his (or her) salvation. It only means, they will face very difficult times and will be forced to take the mark or lose their head. It is not God's will that we face that kind of pressure. That is why He has created a way of escape. WHO is worthy for that way of escape? That is the question.

I believe the Old Testament saints are Resurrected at the 7th vial, the "last day" of the 70th week. Is it possible any new believers and those left behind at the rapture will be caught up with them? I just don't know. I doubt it.

Lamad.

 

[John S]

Satan doesn't fight the Pre-Trib Doctrine. He welcomes it with open arms. What better way to fool millions without even trying very hard?

 

[veteran]

I know who speaks to me, for I know His voice.

It is not wise to impune the Spirit behind a fellow believer. You could be saying bad things about the Holy Spirit. In this case you certainly are. Of course you have a free will and can say anything; all I am saying is, it is not wise.

You say what you say only because your doctrine is being challenged. I am not the only one here that knows many of your theories are faulty. One day soon you will find out just how far off you are. But I will have flown away. I doubt seriously if I will even think of you during my 7 plus years in heaven. There will be too many good things to see and hear....real TRUTH...which is very hard to come by here. I may see you on the fiery sea of glass, but I doubt it.

Lamad

Try reading Ezekiel 13 and see what God thinks about those who preach for His people to fly away to save their souls.