The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]

[michaelvpardo]

It doesn't help bring Jews to Christ when Dispensationalists tell Jews that Jews are first-class citizens in God's kingdom and that Christians are only second-class citizens in God's kingdom (natural and all-saved vs. adopted maybe-saved children). And, I'm still left wondering why Dispensationalists don't convert to judaism to raise their class.

If Jesus really were a false messiah, executing him was acceptable under Old Testament teaching.

But, the Jew's view of Jesus is a red herring on the issue of dispensationalism. Whatever Jews think of Jesus, the fact remains that dispensationalists believe Jews are saved in spite of rejecting Jesus, which contradicts the very core of Christian theology, which makes dispensationalists less Christian than even many so-called cults.

Any Christian would be running from the kind of thing they teach. Here's Hagee,.

John MacArhur, sadly considers himself to be a dispensationalist and believes, "there was a distinction between the Church and Israel." MacArther also points out that dispensationalists believe, "[there is] a distinction between the new covenant for the Church, and the new covenant for Israel." (although MacArther is unclear about whether he also believes that). Understand what dispensationalism is, there is a new covenant for the church and another new covenant for Israel. Join the church and be a second-class citizen or join Judaism (which requires rejecting Jesus) and became a first-class citizen. Could anything sound more satanic? Yet, this line of thinking has been flooding Evangelical thinking in recent decades.

Most dispensationalists aren't prepared to articulate what Hagee says. But, they believe what Hagee says, to some degree, and it's reflected in their theology.

I can't speak for John MacArthur or anyone but myself, but MacArthur teaches a pre-millennial rapture and in order to hold to such a doctrine you must create artificial distinctions between saints before the start of the great tribulation and after. The book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ makes some clear statements about the work of the saints during the judgments and the time of the first resurrection. Instead of one bride there must now be two, instead of one congregation, there must now be two, etc. False doctrines tend to fall apart under biblical examination as there is only one unique truth, not multiple truths dependent upon your perspective. I don't believe that holding to some false doctrine is a sign of condemnation, just a sign of something lacking in understanding and generally a holding on to some carnal ideas which have their appeal to our fleshly nature. We all suffer from such failings having been educated and conditioned in our minds and our patterns of thought with corrupted notions derived from a fallen world. We are called to read, to study, and to apply the word of God in our lives not simply to please God, but to renew our minds, to change the way that we think and to gain the mind of Christ (our teacher by His Spirit.) I write in terms of the things that we must do, but nothing we do has any eternal value if it isn't done in faith:

1. But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
   Hebrews 11:5-7

There is only one gospel and the Apostle Paul tells us that preaching another is accursed at the return of Christ. Given this fact it would seem insane to preach another, but the truth of the matter is that rejecting the gospel is not called the unforgivable sin, but rather the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.is. We preach the gospel which is God's power for salvation, but we are not the judges of those we preach the gospel to, Jesus is.
Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God. 1 Corinthians 4:15
You see Paul, at the writing of this epistle, finding no fault within himself, but explaining that he isn't justified by his own judgment, but by Christ who is our judge. We are not omniscient nor omnipresent and certainly not omnipotent, so how can we sum up a man's life in a single act or a single statement? And how can we reckon a man's faith when we aren't capable of seeing our own in anything but retrospect?
​I don't know much about dispensationalism but I understand that it makes claim that God has dealt with people differently in different ages or dispensations. I personally find the idea frightening as this creates a picture of a god who changes and not one that I could worship or trust. However, in the passage of time there may be the appearance that God has dealt differently with people through the ages, that is from our perspective. God however is not limited by His creation and since time is part of creation, its foolish to consider that God changes in anything that He does. The old testament saints looked forward to Christ, we look back to His incarnation, and forward to His return, but we're all saved by His grace and through faith. Will those who never heard the gospel be given opportunity to hear it? Will those who never heard it be automatically condemned to hell? I don't have the answers to such questions and with my worldly thinking and linear perception of time I would generally assume nothing, simply because I am not their judge and I must be glad that I'm not. Who but God could bear such a burden and remain without fault?

 

[veteran]

Michael V,

You present a valid argument, but so does Polt on this issue. Modern Dispensationalism is guilty of separating natural unbelieving Israel into a different Salvation plan than what Christ offered, which is a very big issue, an issue the true Christian should be able to easily discern from study in God's Word.

Paul in Romans 11 made a distinction between 2 separate groups of natural Israelites, a remnant of Israel which God preserved unto Himself under Christ's grace per The New Covenant, and another group that rejected Christ's grace because of God having put blindness upon them. It's impossible to properly read Romans 11 and not distinguish between those two groups of natural born Israelites.

The majority here haven't studied enough of their Bible about God's prophecies for the lost ten tribes of the house of Israel, their scattering among the Gentiles, and how many if not the majority of them came to Faith on Christ Jesus along with Gentiles in the new lands of their scattering. When Apostle Paul quoted from the OT prophet Hosea to Gentiles, that Hosea Scripture was specifically written to the head of the house of Israel (Ephraim over the ten tribes). That is solid proof that Apostle Paul likely knew many of the house of Israel were among those Gentile believers he was writing to, and he did not refer to them as Jews but as Gentiles. Apostle Paul was a scholar of the Old Testament Scriptures, and he would not miss the point of who Hosea was speaking to. Yet Modern Dispensationalism has missed that point, completely.

Those like Hagee are simply revealing theirself for what they've been all along, false prophets.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

...the lost ten tribes of the house of Israel, their scattering among the Gentiles, and how many if not the majority of them came to Faith on Christ Jesus along with Gentiles in the new lands of their scattering.

You have absolutely nothing of substance to base this on. It is merely an opinion.

 

[veteran]

You have absolutely nothing of substance to base this on. It is merely an opinion.

I don't propose to teach you about it, since you heed traditions of the Jews which of course are vehemently against Bible prophecy involving the scattered ten lost tribes in association with The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the establishing of His Church on earth after the passion of Christ.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I don't propose to teach you about it, since you heed traditions of the Jews which of course are vehemently against Bible prophecy involving the scattered ten lost tribes in association with The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the establishing of His Church on earth after the passion of Christ.

You're bearing false witness. Not a spiritually healthy thing to do.

 

[veteran]

ChristRoseFromTheDead, on 03 May 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:
You have absolutely nothing of substance to base this on. It is merely an opinion.

I don't propose to teach you about it, since you heed traditions of the Jews which of course are vehemently against Bible prophecy involving the scattered ten lost tribes in association with The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the establishing of His Church on earth after the passion of Christ.

For those interested:

Be aware brethren in Christ Jesus, false Jews do not like mention of God's prophecies about the establishing of the scattered ten tribes in The Gospel after Christ's death and resurrection. They hate the Gen.48 prophecy that Ephraim, the head tribe over the ten lost tribes, would become "a multitude of nations", which has ONLY been fulfilled in the Christian West with the Christian nations of western history...


Gen 48:19-20
19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, "God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh."
(KJV)

What false Jews propose instead is that Jews ONLY can represent the true seed of Israel. The Biblical fact stands that the 'Jews' represent only a SMALL PORTION of total Israelites. They try... to usurp the Blessings which God specifically Promised to the ten tribes of Israel, what God's Word calls the "house of Israel" after God split Solomon's reign and gave "ten tribes" to Ephraim to rule over...


God speaking through His prophet Ahijah to Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim...

IKing 11:30-42
30 And Ahijah caught the new garment that was on him, and rent it in twelve pieces:
31 And he said to Jeroboam, "Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee:
32 (But he shall have one tribe for My servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel
33 Because that they have forsaken Me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in My ways, to do that which is right in Mine eyes, and to keep My statutes and My judgments, as did David his father.
34 Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David My servant's sake, whom I chose, because he kept My commandments and My statutes:
35 But I will take the kingdom out of his son's hand, and will give it unto thee, even ten tribes.
36 And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David My servant may have a light alway before Me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen Me to put My name there.
37 And I will take thee, and thou shalt reign according to all that thy soul desireth, and shalt be king over Israel.
38 And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in My ways, and do that is right in My sight, to keep My statutes and My commandments, as David My servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee.
39 And I will for this afflict the seed of David, but not for ever.'"
(KJV)

The ten tribes were taken captive by the kings of Assyria to the lands of Assyria and the Medes. They never returned to the holy land, but were further scattered. University of Michigan professor of languages Leroy Waterman in the 1930's translated from the Assyrian Tablets one of the names which the Assyrians used for the ten tribes they held captive. It is the name for the Cimmerian tribes that migrated into Asia Minor and Europe. The history of the Cimmerians (the 'C' pronounced as a 'K') is a huge... subject in the study of the field of Anthropology, and often mentioned by the ancient historians, so one will find a great amount of reading material about them. They are ancestors of the Celtic tribes, the Gauls, Romans, Norsk, etc., basically the majority of the founders of the of the western nations, the early nations which in majority accepted The Gospel of Jesus Christ after the passion of Christ.

Isaiah 49 is a chapter especially about the ten tribes of Israel established in the "isles" and in The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Hosea gives prophecies specifically to Ephraim, the head of the ten tribes, in association with scattering to new lands to continue in Baal worship until it was time for Christ establishing them and believing Gentiles in His Gospel. That is why Apostle Paul quoted from the Book of Hosea to Gentile believers in Romans 9 in association with Hosea 2 (put as "Osee" in the Greek)...

Rom 9:24-27
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He saith also in Osee, I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, "Ye are not My people; there shall they be called the children of the living God."
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
(KJV)
It was to Loammi in the Book of Hosea that God applied to the "house of Israel" (ten tribes); Loammi means 'not my people'. With Jeroboam (of Ephraim) as king over the ten tribes, he rebelled and led the house of Israel astray, and God took the ten tribes out of the holy lands first. It was to them that God first called them Loammi by that name in Hosea, meaning 'no My people'. Yet in Romans 9, Paul is associating that Hosea prophecy to the believing Gentile Romans he was speaking to there. By that Apostle Paul revealed that he knew there were remnants of the scattered ten tribes among the Roman peoples, since that 'not My people' Hosea prophecy was specific to the ten tribes of the house of Israel under Ephraim only, and not to the Jews from Judah.

Yet Jews will come here and say none of that is true, as if it is not written! Why? Simple. It's because the Jews want the world to think that they only... represent true flesh-born seed Israelites. The Biblical fact of the matter is that the Jews have one of the greatest historices of foreigners creeping into their heritage claiming to be true flesh born Israelites, that it would cause our Lord Jesus to give the parable of the 'tares' of the field, and point out the existence of the "synagogue of Satan" and those who say they are Jews, but do lie and are not (Rev.2:9; Rev.3:9; 1 Kings 9; Ezra 2; Ezra 9; Esther 8). Even the majority of the nation of Edom which Judah conquered in ancient times assimulated heritage among the Jews of history. It likely for this reason that God put blindness upon many of that portion of Israel, i.e., the "house of Judah" (tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi). It's most likely why they fail to understand these Bible prophecies about the ten tribed house of Israel that make up the majority of the seed, and that received The Gospel of Jesus Christ in new lands in the Christian West where they were scattered.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

That's just a farfetched theory that the 'lost' ten tribes maintained their identity and migrated to Europe and then accepted Christ. That is merely speculation and wishful thinking; no substance. The ten tribes were absorbed by their surrounding cultures, intermarried, and were no longer called GOD's people. On the other hand, groups that in Hosea's time were not considered to be GOD's people, i.e., the nations, were to later become GOD's people through faith. Whether they had some lineage going back to Israel, or not, it is irrelevant. The election of GOD has nothing to do with ethnicity.

 

[Polt]

veteran, on 03 May 2013 - 06:28 undefined, said:
...the lost ten tribes of the house of Israel, their scattering among the Gentiles, and how many if not the majority of them came to Faith on Christ Jesus along with Gentiles in the new lands of their scattering.



You have absolutely nothing of substance to base this on. It is merely an opinion.

For most of the last 2000 years until the 20th century, Europe had been overwhelmingly Christian. So, it's very likely that most of natural Israel which migrated to Europe had become Christian. Until the 20th century, Christianity was also relatively common in the middle-east. I doubt any significant portion of natural Israel would have migrated south of the Arab world.

Dispensationalists are doing their best to prevent Jews from coming to Christ, and are also de facto spreading Atheism as well. What do you think the result is of people like Hagee claiming that Jesus didn't "in word or deed" claim to be the Messiah and promising Jews that they're all saved in the eyes of God? Their hatred of Arabs under the banner of being Christian has resulted in something approaching ethnic cleansing of Christians in the middle-east. So, don't confuse the current course with the course of the previous centuries.

Dispensationalist teach salvation through the rejection of Christ! But, they deny that rejecting Christ is rejection because they say Jesus didn't come to be the messiah (listen to Hagee's video). Another lie they promote is that modern Jews are natural Israel. But, Judaism is a religion, a false religion, not Israel's family. In Romans 11, Paul speaks of a remnant of natural Israel in his day being saved. That was 2000 years ago. Promoting Jews as natural Israel is just another way to make Christians second-class citizens of God's kingdom.

Besides, if your ancestors are from Europe and you shake your family tree, you'll probably have dozens of members of natural Israel fall out. If a generation is 20 years, in just the past 1000 years you'd have a million billion parents and grandparents. Given that's more people than has ever existed, how can you not be a descendant of someone who is a descendant of Jacob? The Old Testament Kingdom of Israel probably had less blood of Jacob than the average modern European, given that it started as a mixed multitude, and Jacob's family was just the royal bloodline, not the whole nation.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

If we cannot know anything about God's Will per His Plan of Salvation, then He sure wasted a lot of time showing us from Genesis through Revelation.

If you are referring to my post, brother, then I have to say that you have it backwards.

It's not that GOD'S WILL is not known; it's that GOD'S PLAN is not given to be known!

And, God's PLAN for the World and this 7000-year segment of time (more or less) is not the same thing as "His Plan of Salvation," again, the wrong word, because I believe that you are talking about the "justification of believers by God." It should NOT be referred to as "Salvation!"

This is what I refer to when I talk about God's Plan:

Ecclesiastes 3:11
11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
KJV

Everyone seems to want to know about their future, but God says that's not what is important. Instead, it is following what God says is righteous. THAT is God's Will.

Proverbs 3:5-18
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.
8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.
9 Honour the Lord with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:
10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.
11 My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord; neither be weary of his correction:
12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.
13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.
14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.
15 She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.
16 Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.
17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.
18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.
KJV

Don't think I'm suggesting what you said!

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Retrobyter,

I refer to my post on p4, # 104. This is how I replied to your post previous to it. Please would you clarify the answer to my question? Many thanks.

I asked:

What if the natural family members don't want to be members of the spiritual family?

Please think of the specific family members who died at God's hand, in the OT, through their explicit rebellion against God's instructions at the time.

Are you saying that their relationship to each other as descendants of Jacob supersedes their submission to the Sinai covenant by which they came under God's promise to make them 'a peculiar treasure', 'a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation', unto God?

 

[veteran]

Shalom, veteran.


If you are referring to my post, brother, then I have to say that you have it backwards.

It's not that GOD'S WILL is not known; it's that GOD'S PLAN is not given to be known!

And, God's PLAN for the World and this 7000-year segment of time (more or less) is not the same thing as "His Plan of Salvation," again, the wrong word, because I believe that you are talking about the "justification of believers by God." It should NOT be referred to as "Salvation!"

This is what I refer to when I talk about God's Plan:

Ecclesiastes 3:11
11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
KJV

Everyone seems to want to know about their future, but God says that's not what is important. Instead, it is following what God says is righteous. THAT is God's Will.

Proverbs 3:5-18
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.
8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.
9 Honour the Lord with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:
10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.
11 My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord; neither be weary of his correction:
12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.
13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.
14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.
15 She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.
16 Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.
17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.
18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.
KJV

Don't think I'm suggesting what you said!

The more that comes out of your mouth, the more you make me suspect that you do not know Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour. He is Who and What God's Plan of Salvation is about, and was ordained before the foundations of this world. Your fathers denied the OT prophets that spoke of Him, just as many of them still do today.

But you can come out of all that mess which is the Jew's religion and begin to understand God's Plan of Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ. It's up to you.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The more that comes out of your mouth, the more you make me suspect that you do not know Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour.

+1 for the witness of the spirit.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

The more that comes out of your mouth, the more you make me suspect that you do not know Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour. He is Who and What God's Plan of Salvation is about, and was ordained before the foundations of this world. Your fathers denied the OT prophets that spoke of Him, just as many of them still do today.

But you can come out of all that mess which is the Jew's religion and begin to understand God's Plan of Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ. It's up to you.

Now, you're just being willingly ignorant! You are SO screwed up that you won't even read a thing I write with an open mind! You're being a closed-minded, stubborn LOUT! JUST LIKE THOSE "CHRISTIANS" IN THE SECOND AND THIRD CENTURIES, I might add!

Let me try again:

I was saying two things: First, the WILL of God is different than His PLAN. The WILL of God is our sanctification - our holiness - our righteousness. The PLAN of God is what He is NOT going to tell us about our FUTURE!

The second thing I was talking about is that the words "save," "saved," "saves," "saving," and "salvation" should be reserved, particularly in this forum, for the rescue that the Messiah will perform when He returns because THAT is the event to which the words refer. These are PROPHECY words!

What you are CALLING "salvation" is really the "justification by God" in Scripture, NOT the other!

That does NOT mean that I don't believe in God's justification of an individual! And, He HAS justified me through the offering of His Son's blood upon the cross, "haKeves Elohiym," "the (Sacrificial, Yearling) Lamb of God!" He has justified me in SPITE of my sins, calling me "righteous," while calling His spotless Son, my "sin" (2 Corinthians 5:21) while crucifying Him on the cross (Isaiah 53:7-12).

Romans 10 is NOT the place to which one should take a potential convert; one should take him somewhere else in Scripture, LIKE 2 Corinthians 5! That's ALL I'm saying!


Shalom, ChristRoseFromTheDead.

+1 for the witness of the spirit.

I wasn't even going to comment on your nonsense, and then I got to thinking about your self-righteousness, and decided you needed your bubble burst. It only SEEMS like a "+1" for the "witness of a spirit" who is NOT IN TUNE with the Ruach haKadosh Elohiym, THE Holy Spirit of God!

 

[veteran]

Shalom, veteran.


Now, you're just being willingly ignorant! You are SO screwed up that you won't even read a thing I write with an open mind! You're being a closed-minded, stubborn LOUT! JUST LIKE THOSE "CHRISTIANS" IN THE SECOND AND THIRD CENTURIES, I might add!




Let me try again:

I was saying two things: First, the WILL of God is different than His PLAN. The WILL of God is our sanctification - our holiness - our righteousness. The PLAN of God is what He is NOT going to tell us about our FUTURE!

The second thing I was talking about is that the words "save," "saved," "saves," "saving," and "salvation" should be reserved, particularly in this forum, for the rescue that the Messiah will perform when He returns because THAT is the event to which the words refer. These are PROPHECY words!

What you are CALLING "salvation" is really the "justification by God" in Scripture, NOT the other!

That does NOT mean that I don't believe in God's justification of an individual! And, He HAS justified me through the offering of His Son's blood upon the cross, "haKeves Elohiym," "the (Sacrificial, Yearling) Lamb of God!" He has justified me in SPITE of my sins, calling me "righteous," while calling His spotless Son, my "sin" (2 Corinthians 5:21) while crucifying Him on the cross (Isaiah 53:7-12).

Romans 10 is NOT the place to which one should take a potential convert; one should take him somewhere else in Scripture, LIKE 2 Corinthians 5! That's ALL I'm saying!


Shalom, ChristRoseFromTheDead.


I wasn't even going to comment on your nonsense, and then I got to thinking about your self-righteousness, and decided you needed your bubble burst. It only SEEMS like a "+1" for the "witness of a spirit" who is NOT IN TUNE with the Ruach haKadosh Elohiym, THE Holy Spirit of God!

Thank you, I like being compared to those 'stubborn Christians of the 2nd and 3rd centuries', because they were right on with more understanding than many are today, and they contended heavily against the Jews' religion in keeping the Faith of Jesus Christ!

And you're still don't know what you're talking about when you 'try' to separate God's Will apart from His Plan of Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ, a Plan which He has shown those who believe throughout His Holy Writ!

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

Thank you, I like being compared to those 'stubborn Christians of the 2nd and 3rd centuries', because they were right on with more understanding than many are today, and they contended heavily against the Jews' religion in keeping the Faith of Jesus Christ!

And you're still don't know what you're talking about when you 'try' to separate God's Will apart from His Plan of Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ, a Plan which He has shown those who believe throughout His Holy Writ!

Good. Then you can participate in their judgment when they're called before the Messiah's throne, and they WILL be judged for how they treated His MISHPACHAH, His FAMILY!

Second, I'll bet you believe in the "Perfect Will of God," as presented by Weiss, right? His take on the "center of God's Perfect Will," is a farce. First of all, there's no such thing as being in God's "permissive will." You are either DOING God's Will or you are not! One doesn't need to discover His Will for your life; one just needs to READ THE SCRIPTURES for a picture of what God Wants from us! He doesn't truly need us to "marry the right person"; He just demands us to "BE RIGHTEOUS" when we marry ANY person! He doesn't want you to "discover what God wants you to do for an occupation or calling"; He just wants you to "BE RIGHTEOUS" so you can HEAR when He calls! He puts within us the ability, the potential, the propensity to do something that we LIKE! THEN, He gives us the opportunities to learn and to make those choices HE ALREADY KNOWS WE WILL MAKE, to do the occupation or follow the calling HE ALREADY KNOWS WE WILL CHOOSE!

That's why we DON'T NEED TO KNOW OUR FUTURE! We just have to make righteous choices in our present!

PLEASE don't be such a hateful person! I actually love your take on the "Ten Tribes," but you are taking it to the point of excluding the TWO?! That makes NO sense, brother!

 

[Polt]

Thank you, I like being compared to those 'stubborn Christians of the 2nd and 3rd centuries', because they were right on with more understanding than many are today, and they contended heavily against the Jews' religion in keeping the Faith of Jesus Christ!

Yeah, that's hard to take for anyone to compare you to the Christians of the second and third centuries. It wasn't until the fourth century that the church started getting on the right track, with the aid of Rome. And, it wasn't until 1948 that Christians finally figured out who's who, thanks to a miraculous act of the UN. And, it wasn't until the 21st century that some Christians finally got everything right.

It scares me to think out lost those First Century Christians were.

Good. Then you can participate in their judgment when they're called before the Messiah's throne, and they WILL be judged for how they treated His MISHPACHAH, His FAMILY!

Just to be clear, Retrobyte, you mean by " His MISHPACHAH, His FAMILY!" those who reject Jesus and convert rabbinical judaism. And, you do not mean those in Christ, who are counted as the seed of Abraham in that silly New Testament.

Retrobyter, why don't you become a Jew?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Polt.

Yeah, that's hard to take for anyone to compare you to the Christians of the second and third centuries. It wasn't until the fourth century that the church started getting on the right track, with the aid of Rome. And, it wasn't until 1948 that Christians finally figured out who's who, thanks to a miraculous act of the UN. And, it wasn't until the 21st century that some Christians finally got everything right.

It scares me to think out lost those First Century Christians were.



Just to be clear, Retrobyter, you mean by " His MISHPACHAH, His FAMILY!" those who reject Jesus and convert rabbinical judaism. And, you do not mean those in Christ, who are counted as the seed of Abraham in that silly New Testament.

Retrobyter, why don't you become a Jew?

No, brother, I mean "ALL of His family!" That includes both the Isra'elis (as the natural branches of the Olive Tree, who both are and will be grafted in) and the Believing Christians, most of whom are Gentiles or non-Isra'elis (the oleander branches that are grafted into the Olive Tree "contrary to nature").

Oh, and I already AM a Jew. My mother's mother's mother was a full-blooded Y'hudiyt (daughter of Y'hudah). I just don't have the copies of the documents to prove it. However, that's okay! I'm a MESSIANIC Jew; I believe that Yeshua` IS haMashiach Eloheinu, the Messiah of our God, and will return to be haMelekh Yisra'el, the King of Isra'el, just as Daveed was from whom He inherited the Kingdom! Or, have you forgotten the prophecy voiced by Gavri'el (Gabriel) to Miryam, His mother?

Luke 1:26-33
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

This prophecy is going to be fulfilled LITERALLY!

 

[veteran]

Yeah, that's hard to take for anyone to compare you to the Christians of the second and third centuries. It wasn't until the fourth century that the church started getting on the right track, with the aid of Rome. And, it wasn't until 1948 that Christians finally figured out who's who, thanks to a miraculous act of the UN. And, it wasn't until the 21st century that some Christians finally got everything right.

It scares me to think out lost those First Century Christians were.

Yeah, they definitely had to be wrong then, especially since they still had the direct teachings of Christ's Apostles fresh in their hearts and minds!

 

[Polt]

No, brother, I mean "ALL of His family!" That includes both the Isra'elis (as the natural branches of the Olive Tree, who both are and will be grafted in) and the Believing Christians, most of whom are Gentiles or non-Isra'elis (the oleander branches that are grafted into the Olive Tree "contrary to nature").

You believe that people who reject Jesus (and become a rabbinical Jew) become the blood of Israel and first-class citizens in the Kingdom of God. While those who get into the Kingdom through Jesus are second-class citizens. After all, Christians are just grafted in. Hagee takes the next step and claims that Jews don't reject Jesus because "Jesus didn't claim in word or deed to be the Messiah."

So, why don't you reject Jesus and become a Jew to become a first-class citizen?

I already AM a Jew. My mother's mother's mother was a full-blooded Y'hudiyt (daughter of Y'hudah).

Oh, you think you can have it both ways.

You're a Jew because your great grandmother rejected Jesus? In Judaism, you still have to reject Jesus to be considered a Jew, even if someone in your maternal line rejected Jesus. All that a maternal antichristian saves you from in Judaism is the eugenic conversion process. It doesn't save you from the requirement to reject Jesus (all denominations of Judaism, as well as national Jewish organizations, reject Messianic Judaism as a form of Judaism). And, of course, in Christianity, true Jews are the whole body of Christians, Galatians 3:16, Romans 2:29, et al. Converts to Judaism are just people following another false religion.

Your theology is not Christianity. Dispensationalism is something dark that weakens the church and leads people away from Christ.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Retrobyter,

I am not enjoying the accusations coming your way, even though I think you are unwise to discount the importance of the Sinai covenant in respect of its nation-making significance for Israel.

Israel as a peculiar people, a kingdom of priests and a HOLY nation is pointed out by Peter UNMISTAKABLY in the context of the spiritual temple being built with living stones. He leaves no room for unbelievers of any nationality in the building, and clearly he declares it to have begun in his day. Only its completion is future to both him and us. We are all in the generation of Jesus Christ, though, if we have set our sights on the city with foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Surely there is enough genetic confusion regarding Judah and Israel today, especially in the light of the natural genealogy of Christ, to more than justify Paul's definition of 'family' in Galatians 3:7? That IS the culmination of all the prophecy to John (the Baptist), and the terms which were first given to Israel having been fulfilled - although you tell me the terms for Israel are different - it seems clear to me that the conditions for a descendant of Jacob today, are no more demanding than for a Gentile. And this is the perfect solution for those who are descended from Jews who were not originally descended from Jacob, who have been assimilated into the broadest definition of 'natural Israel', whom, I suspect, you would not consider to be REAL 'family'.