RB, without the genealogical records to prove it, how do you know that your great grandmother, or someone prior to her, wasn't a convert?Retrobyter said:
The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]
- Thread starter Rex
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Hi ChristRoseFromTheDead,
Isn't your question rather irrelvant, since salvation - whatever definition one uses - is by faith and not, as under the Mosaic covenant, by birth (for those who lived within God's legal framework).
Isn't this why generations before Jacob will also be 'saved' - because they knew God, and obeyed Him?
There is a sweet irony in God's planning - that those who believe, obey and endure to their end (death), will be fully born from above, through faith. It makes little sense to the natural mind, but as Paul said in Romans 3, the ADVANTAGE to 'Israel', was that they were privvy to God's mind on these matters and more.
Isn't your question rather irrelvant, since salvation - whatever definition one uses - is by faith and not, as under the Mosaic covenant, by birth (for those who lived within God's legal framework).
Isn't this why generations before Jacob will also be 'saved' - because they knew God, and obeyed Him?
There is a sweet irony in God's planning - that those who believe, obey and endure to their end (death), will be fully born from above, through faith. It makes little sense to the natural mind, but as Paul said in Romans 3, the ADVANTAGE to 'Israel', was that they were privvy to God's mind on these matters and more.
My intent was to show RB that the physical genealogy he thinks is so important and takes for granted as being real in his life is really just a matter of faith on his part.dragonfly said:
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, dragonfly.
You must understand, though, that the Sinai Covenant was expanded upon and improved by the New Covenant, but the DAVIDIC Covenant supersedes all! The Sinai Covenant was a conditional covenant with some unconditional benefits. God said, "If you do x, then I'll do y." However, the NEW Covenant, which superseded the Old, was an IMPROVEMENT upon the Old! It did not do away with the covenant, but God made it easier for all parties to benefit by WRITING the "Instruction" (what "Torah" means) upon "tables of flesh," writing it in the CORE of their thoughts - the HEART.
For some odd reason (and I really don't understand why), people have IGNORED the fact that this "New Covenant" was still written to the Isra'elis, not to the rest of the world, unless they, too, became a PART of the Isra'elis through the New Birth, born into the Family of God, which has ALWAYS been the Family of Avraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqov, the Family of Isra'el! While it is true that God opened it up to the Goyim (the Gentiles) through the same faith that Avraham had, it is nevertheless the SAME Family! Consider where the New Covenant was introduced:
Jeremiah 31:31-37
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant (the Sinai Covenant) that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
KJV
Since our deepest hole that we have ever dug is only 7 miles 3,270 feet, and the "foundations of the earth" go clear to the core, 3,963 miles (the average radius of the earth), and the skies above continue on into distant galaxies and beyond, HE WILL NEVER "CAST OFF ALL THE SEED OF ISRA'EL FOR ALL THAT THEY HAVE DONE!"
Also, please note carefully how verse 34 is worded! They (the children of Isra'el, His people) shall know the LORD BECAUSE He will "forgive their iniquity" and "remember their sin no more!" The forgiveness will come FIRST and THEN comes the knowledge! And, this is how it is worded in Romans 11 as well!
Romans 11:1-29
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV
Don't you see? The covenant IS "when I shall take away their sins!" They are beloved not for any good that they have done; nor are they forsaken! They are beloved "FOR THE FATHERS' (THE PATRIARCHS') SAKES!"
And, there is good reason to believe that the Isra'elis, including the Jews, can be justified by God AFTER their deaths! And, Z'kharyahu's prophecy is key:
Zechariah 12:7-14
7 The Lord also shall save (rescue; deliver) the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
KJV
And, verse 7 is why Yeshua` said, "Salvation is of the Jews" in John 4:22! The RESCUE - the DELIVERANCE - is "of the Jews!" Remember: He was talking to a SAMARITAN woman, a woman from SHOMRON (SAMARIA), the city in the land of Efrayim (Ephraim) that was once the capitol of the Northern Kingdom, the Ten Tribes!
I used to scratch my head about the names: David, the king, Nathan, the prophet, Levi, the tribe, and who the heck is Shimei?
Then, I was reading Luke 3 in the Complete Jewish Bible, and God helped me to see the answer:
Luke 3:23-38
23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli,
24 of Mattat, of Levi, of Malki, of Yannai, of Yosef,
25 of Mattityahu, of Amotz, of Nachum, of Hesli, of Naggai,
26 of Machat, of Mattityahu, of Shim‘i, of Yosef, of Yodah,
27 of Yochanan, of Reisha, of Z’rubavel, of Sh’altiel, of Neri,
28 of Malki, of Addi, of Kosam, of Elmadan, of Er,
29 of Yeshua, of Eli‘ezer, of Yoram, of Mattat, of Levi,
30 of Shim‘on, of Y’hudah, of Yosef, of Yonam, of Elyakim,
31 of Mal’ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David,
32 of Yishai, of ‘Oved, of Bo‘az, of Salmon, of Nachshon,
33 of Amminadav, of Admin, of Arni, of Hetzron, of Peretz, of Y’hudah,
34 of Ya‘akov, of Yitz’chak, of Avraham, of Terach, of Nachor,
35 of S’rug, of Re‘u, of Peleg, of ‘Ever, of Shelah,
36 of Keinan, of Arpakhshad, of Shem, of Noach, of Lemekh,
37 of Metushelach, of Hanokh, of Yered, of Mahalal’el, of Keinan,
38 of Enosh, of Shet, of Adam, of God.
CJB
I went back to Zechariah 12 in the CJB to confirm my suspicion:
Zechariah 12:7-14
7 Adonai will save the tents of Y’hudah first,
so that the glory of the house of David
and the glory of those living in Yerushalayim
will not appear greater than that of Y’hudah.
8 When that day comes, Adonai will defend
those living in Yerushalayim.
On that day, even someone who stumbles
will be like David;
and the house of David will be like God,
like the angel of Adonai before them.
9 “When that day comes, I will seek to destroy
all nations attacking Yerushalayim;
10 and I will pour out on the house of David
and on those living in Yerushalayim
a spirit of grace and prayer;
and they will look to me, whom they pierced.”
They will mourn for him
as one mourns for an only son;
they will be in bitterness on his behalf
like the bitterness for a firstborn son.
11 When that day comes, there will be
great mourning in Yerushalayim,
mourning like that for Hadad-Rimmon
in the Megiddo Valley.
12 Then the land will mourn,
each family by itself —
the family of the house of David by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the house of Natan by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
13 the family of the house of Levi by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the Shim‘i by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
14 all the remaining families, each by itself,
and their wives by themselves.
CJB
The spelling was the same. (David Stern tried to be consistent between the Testaments.) ("Shim'i" IS the name of a GROUP of people, a SUB-FAMILY, not a single person.) These four names were given not because there was a horizontal relationship between them in the family tree, as though all four were living at the time that the mourning will happen, but because there is a VERTICAL relationship between the names in the family tree! They are all four a part of the LINEAGE OF YESHUA`! Yeshua` is THEIR GRANDSON (however many generations removed)! Suddenly, it made sense why they would "mourn for him as one mourns for an only son" or "be in bitterness on his behalf like the bitterness for a firstborn son!" If they only had the one son in their family, it would be like they were mourning for that one son! If they had many sons in their family, it would be like they were mourning their firstborn son! It will be a GREAT revelation to them when they can actually SEE in the marks on His body the devastation that was done to Him for the sins of the world, the apple of their eye, their pride and joy, their own flesh and blood!
That understanding took some time to digest mentally. Then, it also occurred to me that these names were MANY generations apart! How could they all be seeing Him at the same time, at the future time when He is rescuing Isra'el, particularly the Jews? The answer to this dilemma took some time to accept because of my own up-bringing, preconceived notions, and prejudices, which were the same as many on this forum have. The answer is simply that they were RESURRECTED FIRST before they could SEE THE SAVIOR'S WOUNDS!
What I am saying is simply this: We have preconceived notions and prejudices in our understanding of theology (particularly that branch called "soteriology") that we have learned from our own up-bringing and the teaching to which we were exposed that don't necessarily line up completely with the Scriptures! This is just ONE of the many! Consider what I'm saying, please!
Shalom, ChristRoseFromTheDead.
Neither you nor I know much about my great grandmother, but I would say I know a little more than you do. I know her name; I know where she lived; I know when she emigrated to America, and I know what is said about her. Your argument is a weak argument. It's as weak as asking you, "How do you know that you're a great, great, ... grandson of Noah?" Isn't ALL "knowledge" a matter of FAITH?! So, what would YOU consider "proof?" Even a document can be forged!
I really don't care how I got there, whether by blood or by Blood! Whether it was through the actual lineage of the Family or through the New Birth into the Family - an adoption into the Tribe of Y'hudah (Judah) through the Blood of the Messiah shed for the sins of the world; the important thing is that I'm a member of the Family.
You're just of the opinion that the only way into the Family is through the New Birth. I'm trying to tell you that the Family IS the Original Isra'el, the Isra'el as it was under the reign of Daveed haMelekh, David the King! Read the words that Paul penned to the Gentiles at Ephesus in Ephesians 2!
Ephesians 2:11-22
11 Therefore, remember your former state: you Gentiles by birth — called the Uncircumcised by those who, merely because of an operation on their flesh, are called the Circumcised — 12 at that time had no Messiah. You were estranged from the national life of Isra’el. You were foreigners to the covenants embodying God’s promise. You were in this world without hope and without God.
13 But now, you who were once far off have been brought near through the shedding of the Messiah’s blood. 14 For he himself is our shalom — he has made us both one and has broken down the m’chitzah which divided us 15 by destroying in his own body the enmity occasioned by the Torah, with its commands set forth in the form of ordinances. He did this in order to create in union with himself from the two groups a single new humanity and thus make shalom, 16 and in order to reconcile to God both in a single body by being executed on a stake as a criminal and thus in himself killing that enmity.
17 Also, when he came, he announced as Good News shalom to you far off (Gentiles) and shalom to those nearby (Jews), 18 news that through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 So then, you are no longer foreigners and strangers. On the contrary, you are fellow-citizens with God’s people and members of God’s family. 20 You have been built on the foundation of the emissaries and the prophets, with the cornerstone being Yeshua the Messiah himself. 21 In union with him the whole building is held together, and it is growing into a holy temple in union with the Lord. 22 Yes, in union with him, you yourselves are being built together into a spiritual dwelling-place for God!
CJB
God called Isra'el His "son" and brought him out of Egypt - the Family of Avraham, of Yitschaq, and of Ya`aqov/Yisra'el - when they were a young nation of roughly 2,000,000 people (maybe), led by Mosheh (Moses). So, Isra'el's Family is also God's Family, and it is into THAT Family that we are "born again!"
I don't know enough about my earthly lineage to trust in it. I DO know that I have been born again by the Blood of the Messiah and that, through Him, I am now an "honorary member" of the tribe of Y'hudah (Judah) because HE was first a Jew! Isn't adoption what they call being unnaturally placed into one's natural family as though they were a natural member of that family? We're not just put in some arbitrary, foreign "church," disjoint, separate and apart from Isra'el; we are placed WITHIN the Family of God!
Regarding the "accusations coming my way," I just consider the source. It saddens me to see good minds going to waste.dragonfly said:
You must understand, though, that the Sinai Covenant was expanded upon and improved by the New Covenant, but the DAVIDIC Covenant supersedes all! The Sinai Covenant was a conditional covenant with some unconditional benefits. God said, "If you do x, then I'll do y." However, the NEW Covenant, which superseded the Old, was an IMPROVEMENT upon the Old! It did not do away with the covenant, but God made it easier for all parties to benefit by WRITING the "Instruction" (what "Torah" means) upon "tables of flesh," writing it in the CORE of their thoughts - the HEART.
For some odd reason (and I really don't understand why), people have IGNORED the fact that this "New Covenant" was still written to the Isra'elis, not to the rest of the world, unless they, too, became a PART of the Isra'elis through the New Birth, born into the Family of God, which has ALWAYS been the Family of Avraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqov, the Family of Isra'el! While it is true that God opened it up to the Goyim (the Gentiles) through the same faith that Avraham had, it is nevertheless the SAME Family! Consider where the New Covenant was introduced:
Jeremiah 31:31-37
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant (the Sinai Covenant) that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
KJV
Since our deepest hole that we have ever dug is only 7 miles 3,270 feet, and the "foundations of the earth" go clear to the core, 3,963 miles (the average radius of the earth), and the skies above continue on into distant galaxies and beyond, HE WILL NEVER "CAST OFF ALL THE SEED OF ISRA'EL FOR ALL THAT THEY HAVE DONE!"
Also, please note carefully how verse 34 is worded! They (the children of Isra'el, His people) shall know the LORD BECAUSE He will "forgive their iniquity" and "remember their sin no more!" The forgiveness will come FIRST and THEN comes the knowledge! And, this is how it is worded in Romans 11 as well!
Romans 11:1-29
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
unto this day.9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV
Don't you see? The covenant IS "when I shall take away their sins!" They are beloved not for any good that they have done; nor are they forsaken! They are beloved "FOR THE FATHERS' (THE PATRIARCHS') SAKES!"
And, there is good reason to believe that the Isra'elis, including the Jews, can be justified by God AFTER their deaths! And, Z'kharyahu's prophecy is key:
Zechariah 12:7-14
7 The Lord also shall save (rescue; deliver) the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
KJV
And, verse 7 is why Yeshua` said, "Salvation is of the Jews" in John 4:22! The RESCUE - the DELIVERANCE - is "of the Jews!" Remember: He was talking to a SAMARITAN woman, a woman from SHOMRON (SAMARIA), the city in the land of Efrayim (Ephraim) that was once the capitol of the Northern Kingdom, the Ten Tribes!
I used to scratch my head about the names: David, the king, Nathan, the prophet, Levi, the tribe, and who the heck is Shimei?
Then, I was reading Luke 3 in the Complete Jewish Bible, and God helped me to see the answer:
Luke 3:23-38
23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli,
24 of Mattat, of Levi, of Malki, of Yannai, of Yosef,
25 of Mattityahu, of Amotz, of Nachum, of Hesli, of Naggai,
26 of Machat, of Mattityahu, of Shim‘i, of Yosef, of Yodah,
27 of Yochanan, of Reisha, of Z’rubavel, of Sh’altiel, of Neri,
28 of Malki, of Addi, of Kosam, of Elmadan, of Er,
29 of Yeshua, of Eli‘ezer, of Yoram, of Mattat, of Levi,
30 of Shim‘on, of Y’hudah, of Yosef, of Yonam, of Elyakim,
31 of Mal’ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David,
32 of Yishai, of ‘Oved, of Bo‘az, of Salmon, of Nachshon,
33 of Amminadav, of Admin, of Arni, of Hetzron, of Peretz, of Y’hudah,
34 of Ya‘akov, of Yitz’chak, of Avraham, of Terach, of Nachor,
35 of S’rug, of Re‘u, of Peleg, of ‘Ever, of Shelah,
36 of Keinan, of Arpakhshad, of Shem, of Noach, of Lemekh,
37 of Metushelach, of Hanokh, of Yered, of Mahalal’el, of Keinan,
38 of Enosh, of Shet, of Adam, of God.
CJB
I went back to Zechariah 12 in the CJB to confirm my suspicion:
Zechariah 12:7-14
7 Adonai will save the tents of Y’hudah first,
so that the glory of the house of David
and the glory of those living in Yerushalayim
will not appear greater than that of Y’hudah.
8 When that day comes, Adonai will defend
those living in Yerushalayim.
On that day, even someone who stumbles
will be like David;
and the house of David will be like God,
like the angel of Adonai before them.
9 “When that day comes, I will seek to destroy
all nations attacking Yerushalayim;
10 and I will pour out on the house of David
and on those living in Yerushalayim
a spirit of grace and prayer;
and they will look to me, whom they pierced.”
They will mourn for him
as one mourns for an only son;
they will be in bitterness on his behalf
like the bitterness for a firstborn son.
11 When that day comes, there will be
great mourning in Yerushalayim,
mourning like that for Hadad-Rimmon
in the Megiddo Valley.
12 Then the land will mourn,
each family by itself —
the family of the house of David by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the house of Natan by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
13 the family of the house of Levi by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the Shim‘i by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
14 all the remaining families, each by itself,
and their wives by themselves.
CJB
The spelling was the same. (David Stern tried to be consistent between the Testaments.) ("Shim'i" IS the name of a GROUP of people, a SUB-FAMILY, not a single person.) These four names were given not because there was a horizontal relationship between them in the family tree, as though all four were living at the time that the mourning will happen, but because there is a VERTICAL relationship between the names in the family tree! They are all four a part of the LINEAGE OF YESHUA`! Yeshua` is THEIR GRANDSON (however many generations removed)! Suddenly, it made sense why they would "mourn for him as one mourns for an only son" or "be in bitterness on his behalf like the bitterness for a firstborn son!" If they only had the one son in their family, it would be like they were mourning for that one son! If they had many sons in their family, it would be like they were mourning their firstborn son! It will be a GREAT revelation to them when they can actually SEE in the marks on His body the devastation that was done to Him for the sins of the world, the apple of their eye, their pride and joy, their own flesh and blood!
That understanding took some time to digest mentally. Then, it also occurred to me that these names were MANY generations apart! How could they all be seeing Him at the same time, at the future time when He is rescuing Isra'el, particularly the Jews? The answer to this dilemma took some time to accept because of my own up-bringing, preconceived notions, and prejudices, which were the same as many on this forum have. The answer is simply that they were RESURRECTED FIRST before they could SEE THE SAVIOR'S WOUNDS!
What I am saying is simply this: We have preconceived notions and prejudices in our understanding of theology (particularly that branch called "soteriology") that we have learned from our own up-bringing and the teaching to which we were exposed that don't necessarily line up completely with the Scriptures! This is just ONE of the many! Consider what I'm saying, please!
Shalom, ChristRoseFromTheDead.
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Neither you nor I know much about my great grandmother, but I would say I know a little more than you do. I know her name; I know where she lived; I know when she emigrated to America, and I know what is said about her. Your argument is a weak argument. It's as weak as asking you, "How do you know that you're a great, great, ... grandson of Noah?" Isn't ALL "knowledge" a matter of FAITH?! So, what would YOU consider "proof?" Even a document can be forged!
Let's "call a spade a spade," shall we? Your intent was to belittle me and thereby belittle my words. THAT'S your true intent, and it's not a noble thing to do. It's certainly not worthy of a believer in the teachings of the Messiah who said, "Love one another." This focus on me is really meant to distract the focus from my argument, an ad hominem argument, by the way.ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
I really don't care how I got there, whether by blood or by Blood! Whether it was through the actual lineage of the Family or through the New Birth into the Family - an adoption into the Tribe of Y'hudah (Judah) through the Blood of the Messiah shed for the sins of the world; the important thing is that I'm a member of the Family.
You're just of the opinion that the only way into the Family is through the New Birth. I'm trying to tell you that the Family IS the Original Isra'el, the Isra'el as it was under the reign of Daveed haMelekh, David the King! Read the words that Paul penned to the Gentiles at Ephesus in Ephesians 2!
Ephesians 2:11-22
11 Therefore, remember your former state: you Gentiles by birth — called the Uncircumcised by those who, merely because of an operation on their flesh, are called the Circumcised — 12 at that time had no Messiah. You were estranged from the national life of Isra’el. You were foreigners to the covenants embodying God’s promise. You were in this world without hope and without God.
13 But now, you who were once far off have been brought near through the shedding of the Messiah’s blood. 14 For he himself is our shalom — he has made us both one and has broken down the m’chitzah which divided us 15 by destroying in his own body the enmity occasioned by the Torah, with its commands set forth in the form of ordinances. He did this in order to create in union with himself from the two groups a single new humanity and thus make shalom, 16 and in order to reconcile to God both in a single body by being executed on a stake as a criminal and thus in himself killing that enmity.
17 Also, when he came, he announced as Good News shalom to you far off (Gentiles) and shalom to those nearby (Jews), 18 news that through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 So then, you are no longer foreigners and strangers. On the contrary, you are fellow-citizens with God’s people and members of God’s family. 20 You have been built on the foundation of the emissaries and the prophets, with the cornerstone being Yeshua the Messiah himself. 21 In union with him the whole building is held together, and it is growing into a holy temple in union with the Lord. 22 Yes, in union with him, you yourselves are being built together into a spiritual dwelling-place for God!
CJB
God called Isra'el His "son" and brought him out of Egypt - the Family of Avraham, of Yitschaq, and of Ya`aqov/Yisra'el - when they were a young nation of roughly 2,000,000 people (maybe), led by Mosheh (Moses). So, Isra'el's Family is also God's Family, and it is into THAT Family that we are "born again!"
I don't know enough about my earthly lineage to trust in it. I DO know that I have been born again by the Blood of the Messiah and that, through Him, I am now an "honorary member" of the tribe of Y'hudah (Judah) because HE was first a Jew! Isn't adoption what they call being unnaturally placed into one's natural family as though they were a natural member of that family? We're not just put in some arbitrary, foreign "church," disjoint, separate and apart from Isra'el; we are placed WITHIN the Family of God!
I have no desire to belittle you. Many of your ideas are indeed worthy of that, but that was not my intent in this case. I was merely trying to point out that any confidence or pride in fleshly genealogy is vain because genealogy records no longer exist. It is only a matter of faith. And it is a vain faith because the only way into the family of GOD is through faith in Christ.Retrobyter said:
What's your FAITH in? Every Jewish denomination in the world rejects you as a Jew. International Jewish organizations reject you. The state of Israel rejects you. And, I doubt your great grandmother ever claimed to be the blood of Jacob. Your FAITH isn't in Jesus because it's not a Christian doctrine you're promoting that salvation is by bloodline.Retrobyter said:
His question isn't irrelevant because it points out the silliness of one of the central positions of Dispensenationism.dragonfly said:
As for your position, Mosaic law isn't based on birth nor is anyone saved by Mosaic law.
Hi Polt,
I meant that the Mosaic law was given to the children of Israel and those who joined them through circumcision.Hebrews 9:15 applies to Israelites who died under the law, as does a clause in Romans 4:16.
I meant that the Mosaic law was given to the children of Israel and those who joined them through circumcision.Hebrews 9:15 applies to Israelites who died under the law, as does a clause in Romans 4:16.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Polt.
At the risk of being redundant, I'll repeat myself:
I don't know enough about my earthly lineage to trust in it. I DO know that I have been born again by the Blood of the Messiah and that, through Him, I am now an "honorary member" of the tribe of Y'hudah (Judah) because HE was first a Jew! Isn't adoption what they call being unnaturally placed into one's natural family as though they were a natural member of that family? We're not just put in some arbitrary, foreign "church," disjoint, separate and apart from Isra'el; we are placed WITHIN the Family of God!
Got it now?
"Salvation," i.e. the RESCUE, IS by bloodline! Now, are you going to talk about the Rescue prophecy or are you going to talk about God's justification of an individual? The two are NOT synonymous!
______
Shalom, ChristRoseFromTheDead.
You REALLY need to get a grip on what "Dispensationalism" is! I think you just like throwing big words around to which you don't have a CLUE what they mean! ("Oooh! I get to use "Dis-pen-sa-tion-al-ism" again!") Drop using the word until you've looked it up, okay, pumpkin? I've told you before that I'm not a Dispensationalist, and I DO know what the word means!Polt said:
At the risk of being redundant, I'll repeat myself:
I don't know enough about my earthly lineage to trust in it. I DO know that I have been born again by the Blood of the Messiah and that, through Him, I am now an "honorary member" of the tribe of Y'hudah (Judah) because HE was first a Jew! Isn't adoption what they call being unnaturally placed into one's natural family as though they were a natural member of that family? We're not just put in some arbitrary, foreign "church," disjoint, separate and apart from Isra'el; we are placed WITHIN the Family of God!
Got it now?
"Salvation," i.e. the RESCUE, IS by bloodline! Now, are you going to talk about the Rescue prophecy or are you going to talk about God's justification of an individual? The two are NOT synonymous!
______
Shalom, ChristRoseFromTheDead.
Well, for having "no desire to belittle me," you've bungled into it just fine! You need to study it out a little more, and quit resting on your rhetoric. TEST the Scriptures, as I have done, and see that they DO support what I've been saying about the "Family of God." I'm done with you on this topic.ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
How does asking how you know your great grandmother, or someone prior to her, wasn't a convert belittle you?Retrobyter said:
You claim yourself (by faith in your anti-Christian great grandmother) to be a natural member of Judah. Why would a natural child be adopted or be just an "honorary member" of a family? Are you hedging your bet in case your first faith turns out wrong? "If the DNA test turns out negative, then I've got adoption papers."Retrobyter said:
BTW, I'm glad to hear that Jesus being related to Mr. Judah makes Him worthy of you.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Polt.
When Yeshua` returns, you're going to have a lot of crow to eat, bubba, because you're attacking HIM when you attack His FAMILY! I TOLD you in what and Whom I trust, and STILL you attack?! You're so near-sighted you can't see the end of your beak! Just hush your mouth and go back to the study of the Scriptures. You're not "there," yet, bro'. You have NOT yet "arrived!"
Shalom, CRFTD. (You're not walking worthy of your full handle.)
Nice. And, you call yourself a "Christian?" Do you always ridicule first, or have you ever stopped to consider WHY a person makes a claim that he/she does? Do you ever stop to ask the question, "Could I be wrong about this?" Do you ever THINK to do the "leg work" and see if what a person is saying might be right? OR, do you always just assume, "Well, that's not what I believe; therefore, he's/she's wrong"? I'm not going to respond to you anymore until you can do so with an open mind. Now, if you seriously want to know WHY I believe what I believe (even if you don't agree), that's a legitimate response, but you're not asking questions to learn; you're asking questions to "prove you're right."
...Or, should I call you a "barnyard hen?" Both you and CRFTD are of the same "pecking" mentality. I've almost called you your name with a "D" instead of a "P" many times!Polt said:
When Yeshua` returns, you're going to have a lot of crow to eat, bubba, because you're attacking HIM when you attack His FAMILY! I TOLD you in what and Whom I trust, and STILL you attack?! You're so near-sighted you can't see the end of your beak! Just hush your mouth and go back to the study of the Scriptures. You're not "there," yet, bro'. You have NOT yet "arrived!"
Shalom, CRFTD. (You're not walking worthy of your full handle.)
How short-sighted can one get?! Just quit talking about my great grandmother. You don't know ANYTHING about her, and you have NO right to make any judgments about her OR me. I wasn't talking about her; I was talking about all the OTHER little "jabs" along the way you've made! EVEN IN THE SAME POST! E.g.,...ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Nice. And, you call yourself a "Christian?" Do you always ridicule first, or have you ever stopped to consider WHY a person makes a claim that he/she does? Do you ever stop to ask the question, "Could I be wrong about this?" Do you ever THINK to do the "leg work" and see if what a person is saying might be right? OR, do you always just assume, "Well, that's not what I believe; therefore, he's/she's wrong"? I'm not going to respond to you anymore until you can do so with an open mind. Now, if you seriously want to know WHY I believe what I believe (even if you don't agree), that's a legitimate response, but you're not asking questions to learn; you're asking questions to "prove you're right."
If you think being a Jew is so special..
Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham
Theer are so many who try to become Jewish thinking somehow that wil work, another way to salvation,
I wish people would make shorter posts and stop quoting ever detail it just make s posts boring and usually teh more that is written teh less it says, Too much for my brain or eyesite for that matter. Jeezz did I really say eye site I must be getting old..
In all His Love
Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham
Theer are so many who try to become Jewish thinking somehow that wil work, another way to salvation,
I wish people would make shorter posts and stop quoting ever detail it just make s posts boring and usually teh more that is written teh less it says, Too much for my brain or eyesite for that matter. Jeezz did I really say eye site I must be getting old..
In all His Love
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, mjrhealth.
Ponder on these verses for a while; mull them over in your mind and consider just what they are saying:
Romans 2:17-3:4
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
KJV
Don't you see? Paul was not changing the terminology, as some teach, that a "true Jew" is one who is "circumcised in the heart." He was simply teaching that circumcision in the flesh IS NOT ENOUGH! One must ALSO have the b'rit muwlah in the core of one's thinking, cutting away the "foreskin" of one's evil and sin within!
Note that in the VERY NEXT VERSE (3:1) he goes back to using "Jew" just as is commonly, normally interpreted, again! The natural Jew has the advantage of being a member of "the people of the Book!"
Paul also never gave up his well-earned title as a Parush (Pharisee)! Although, he tempered his pride in that accomplishment, it was still an accomplishment and a great honor among the Jews. He was a rabbi of great learning and study; he was a "Separatist" (for that is what "Parush" means) and took pride (without being prideful) in the relationship he had with God, being "separated" unto Him and for Him!
Many of you would do the same thing (even if you wouldn't say so or make such a claim). That's why we must constantly remind ourselves that it is ALL of God! That there is nothing good in us whereby we ingratiate ourselves to God. We must "remember the pit from which we were dug" and keep ourselves humble and thank God daily for the awesome mercy and grace He has shown us.
Acts 23:1-10
23 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.
2 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth.
3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?
4 And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest?
5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.
6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.
8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
9 And there arose a great cry: and the scribes that were of the Pharisees' part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this man: but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God.
10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them, and to bring him into the castle.
KJV
Acts 26:1-20
26 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Thou art permitted to speak for thyself. Then Paul stretched forth the hand, and answered for himself:
2 I think myself happy, king Agrippa, because I shall answer for myself this day before thee touching all the things whereof I am accused of the Jews:
3 Especially because I know thee to be expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews: wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently.
4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers (the Resurrection):
7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.
8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?
9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
KJV
Philippians 3:1-16
3 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
KJV
So, he could have boasted, but he chose not to do so, because he had caused MANY people of "the Way" to be put to death.
Being a Jew IS special. It's just not something one should place his faith in when it comes to one's reconciliation to God!mjrhealth said:
Ponder on these verses for a while; mull them over in your mind and consider just what they are saying:
Romans 2:17-3:4
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
KJV
Don't you see? Paul was not changing the terminology, as some teach, that a "true Jew" is one who is "circumcised in the heart." He was simply teaching that circumcision in the flesh IS NOT ENOUGH! One must ALSO have the b'rit muwlah in the core of one's thinking, cutting away the "foreskin" of one's evil and sin within!
Note that in the VERY NEXT VERSE (3:1) he goes back to using "Jew" just as is commonly, normally interpreted, again! The natural Jew has the advantage of being a member of "the people of the Book!"
Paul also never gave up his well-earned title as a Parush (Pharisee)! Although, he tempered his pride in that accomplishment, it was still an accomplishment and a great honor among the Jews. He was a rabbi of great learning and study; he was a "Separatist" (for that is what "Parush" means) and took pride (without being prideful) in the relationship he had with God, being "separated" unto Him and for Him!
Many of you would do the same thing (even if you wouldn't say so or make such a claim). That's why we must constantly remind ourselves that it is ALL of God! That there is nothing good in us whereby we ingratiate ourselves to God. We must "remember the pit from which we were dug" and keep ourselves humble and thank God daily for the awesome mercy and grace He has shown us.
Acts 23:1-10
23 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.
2 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth.
3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?
4 And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest?
5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.
6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.
8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
9 And there arose a great cry: and the scribes that were of the Pharisees' part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this man: but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God.
10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them, and to bring him into the castle.
KJV
Acts 26:1-20
26 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Thou art permitted to speak for thyself. Then Paul stretched forth the hand, and answered for himself:
2 I think myself happy, king Agrippa, because I shall answer for myself this day before thee touching all the things whereof I am accused of the Jews:
3 Especially because I know thee to be expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews: wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently.
4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers (the Resurrection):
7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.
8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?
9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
KJV
Philippians 3:1-16
3 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
KJV
So, he could have boasted, but he chose not to do so, because he had caused MANY people of "the Way" to be put to death.
We're told that the hypocrites loved to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. I think a modern equivalent may be the lengthy quoting of scripture in public forums.mjrhealth said:
It's just staggering how little discernment exists today. Paul wrote that nearly 2000 years ago. Things changed dramatically not long after he wrote it. For the past 1900+ years unto whom have the oracles of GOD been committed?Retrobyter said:
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, D-Polt.
Shalom, CRFTD.
If you're referring to my posts, I only quote verses I consider pertinent with enough of the context as to verify the interpretation of the verses within the context. One should ENJOY reading the Scriptures; not avoid them!Polt said:
Shalom, CRFTD.
Still to the Jews. When the Christians wanted to understand the OT in the 20th century, to whom did they go? To WHAT did they go? They went to the Jewish rabbis and to the Masoretic Text! And, that only makes sense. They ARE "the People of the Book." It was THEIR endless copying of the text, taking incredible care of the copying process, that made modern understanding of the Scriptures possible. Their pain-stakingly careful scribes down through the years have given us a text that is extremely true to the most ancient manuscripts discovered in recent archaeological discoveries.ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Retrobyter, on 12 May 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:
Retrobyter said:
Ding, ding, ding! Time's up. The answer is ... the body of ChristChristRoseFromTheDead said:
People of the book? Quote much from the Koran?Retrobyter said:
1) Jews have done nothing to preserve the New Testament.
2) Christians have preserved and relied primarily on the Septuagint (and the Vulgate for Catholics) for most of the last 2000 years for the Old Testament.
You believe Christians are second-class citizens (you believe Christians are the adopted kids while Jewish converts become the natural kids) in the kingdom of God and you ignore the painstaking effort of Christians to preserve the whole Bible for the last 2000 years. Christian scribes carefully copied the Bible for centuries and then Christians invented the printing press and made preserving scripture trivial.
Why do you snub Christians?
The Jews did a pretty bad job preserving the Old Testament. As such, we have much older Christian copies of the Bible than Jewish copies. Whatever the reason that they failed to preserve pre-Masoretic texts, I doubt Christianity is better off with the loss of those texts and being stuck with the Masoretic for a Hebrew source. The Masoretic text itself is somewhat of a translation.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, CRFTD.
Shalom, D-Polt.
Romans 11:11-32
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation (rescue; deliverance) has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! (That's NOT a question mark! That's an EXCLAMATION MARK!)
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save (rescue) some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive (oleander) shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature (an oleander bush), and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer (rescuer; savior) will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
NIV
It is thus OUR responsibility to continue to WIN them to their Messiah, NOT to judge them for rejecting their Messiah! Look forward, not behind! We are to be ONE in the Messiah worshipping God TOGETHER! Christians aren't "second class citizens," as YOU put it; but on the other hand, neither are we SUPERIOR to them!
Ephesians 2:11-22
11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men, the b'rit muwlah)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ (the Messiah), excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus (the Messiah Yeshua`) you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ (the Messiah).
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away (the Gentiles) and peace to those who were near (the Isra'elis). 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus (the Messiah Yeshua`) himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
NIV
Awww....! So close!ChristRoseFromTheDead said:Retrobyter, on 12 May 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:
Ding, ding, ding! Time's up. The answer is ... the body of Christ
Shalom, D-Polt.
That's simply because WE (our ancestors in the faith, the ancient believers, whether Isra'eli or Gentile) were NEGLIGENT in sharing with them that Yeshua` was and is the Messiah of God - their promised Messiah! Why? Simply because they did not heed Paul's words in Romans 11:Polt said:
Romans 11:11-32
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation (rescue; deliverance) has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! (That's NOT a question mark! That's an EXCLAMATION MARK!)
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save (rescue) some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive (oleander) shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature (an oleander bush), and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer (rescuer; savior) will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
NIV
It is thus OUR responsibility to continue to WIN them to their Messiah, NOT to judge them for rejecting their Messiah! Look forward, not behind! We are to be ONE in the Messiah worshipping God TOGETHER! Christians aren't "second class citizens," as YOU put it; but on the other hand, neither are we SUPERIOR to them!
Ephesians 2:11-22
11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men, the b'rit muwlah)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ (the Messiah), excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus (the Messiah Yeshua`) you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ (the Messiah).
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away (the Gentiles) and peace to those who were near (the Isra'elis). 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus (the Messiah Yeshua`) himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
NIV
Rocky Wiley
Active Member
All of Israel shall be saved,Rex said:
All of Israel is every person of faith, Jews and Gentiles alike. No faith, no salvation.
For by grace you are saved through faith, that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Eph 2:8
Similar threads
