The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]

[Trumpeter]

Lamad where do you get off telling people they have to believe the pre-trib doctrine to be with the Lord. That is a lie and you should be ashamed of yourself for saying such a thing. If the post-trib believers are wrong about the rapture and it happens pre-trib, they will be pleasantly surprised, and get to meet the Lord before they thought. If the pre-trib believers are wrong about their beliefs and have to endure to the end, they want be pleasantly surprised, they will be disappointed. Salvation has nothing to do with which end time doctrine a person believes, salvation, only depends on whether a person accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior

Amen Enoch,

Thus says the Lord YahuShua: I am coming for those who are Mine, who I see of Myself in them, and for those little ones who remain in their innocence.
And of those, who carry Me within them, these look for My coming and know it is nigh, for they are fully awake in Me, and wait anxiously with kinked necks.
And those who truly love Me, yet gaze as one having man’s veil atop their heads, not believing those who are Mine will escape but will endure great tribulation, these shall also be taken according to that which their hearts reveal, in spite of their error, for these have also passed from judgment into the Light of Life. It is only the leaders in the churches of men, who led them astray, according to their own arrogance and false doctrine, who shall be left.

I search the hearts and minds! Says the Lord.​

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Excerpt from:​

​

I Search the Hearts and Minds​

http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=I_Search_the_Hearts_and_Minds​

I have never said that. OF COURSE those left behind can see the Lord, but they will have to LOSE THEIR HEAD to see Him. No, Sorry, God will not go against someone's will - if they are determined to face the Beast, God will allow them exactly what they are believing God for. God is a FAITH God. Everything we get from heaven we get by faith. The rapture will be the same thing. If people have faith they will see the Beast, they will see Him. I am convinced they will be left behind. Why do you imagine the devil fights pretrib so hard? He WANTS many to be left behind.

God has made a way of escape; yet postribbers scoff at it. Why would you even think God would take them, when they are not believing in it? Always remember the parts of the gospel people make fun of, God makes SURE they never see it. It could be the baptism, with the Holy Spirit, it could be supernatural healing, and it could be he pretrib rapture. Don't be so sure people scoffing at it, making fun of it, will be allowed to partake of it. I could be wrong, I am only telling you what I believe. If God has mercy on those who scoff at His way of escape, then we can thank Him for His mercy. However, I don't believe this is the case.

IF a believer is left behind, that certainly does not mean He loses his (or her) salvation. It only means, they will face very difficult times and will be forced to take the mark or lose their head. It is not God's will that we face that kind of pressure. That is why He has created a way of escape. WHO is worthy for that way of escape? That is the question.

I believe the Old Testament saints are Resurrected at the 7th vial, the "last day" of the 70th week. Is it possible any new believers and those left behind at the rapture will be caught up with them? I just don't know. I doubt it.

Lamad.

Greetings Lamad, God bless.

This is what The Lord says: Beloved, you have seen well, yet only as one who abides in the world, while having blurred vision... No one can see as The Lord sees, nor are you able to look upon the heart. Those prepared and bundled will be taken, both the first and the second of My harvest... Yet of the first, it is finished...

My bride is prepared and awaits My hand...

And lo, My hand is indeed proceeding forth,
Even as My voice calls to her already.​

Behold, I tell you a wonderful thing... Your children know already, and have heard, and in their dreams they reach toward Heaven, with arms outstretched... They know Me... And long to return to the place, from which they came and has always been theirs. In the same way, all My children of the first harvest, though they have come of age, know Me, and stretch forth their hands... Some running, while others are just now standing up. Behold, even those in the grave will soon reach forth and fly away.

Therefore, the first of many is finished...

The lowly, of the lowly, will be taken...

Every person, in whom I see of Myself,
And every innocent child, in whom I dwell, having never departed...

Behold, even the mentally handicapped shall be taken,
And made whole in an instant, to the glory of The Father!​

Therefore, trust in Me, and believe My words also, though you can only see in part and your understanding is restrained. Believe in ME! Trust in MY ways, for the will of The Father is manifest through Me. And I am that Light, which is shown in the darkness, yet remains apart from the world... For I am set apart in glory, even as The Father is set apart in glory, the power of which has no limits and has always been... Even from everlasting to everlasting, I AM... From which I have also loved you.

Even everyone, who will come to Me, is come already,
And will yet come running...

For those, made for Me, were created in My image, and can in no wise depart...

For they remain with Me, always, where I am...


For I AM, and you are in life because of Me,
And My life has no end.​

You do not understand now what I am saying, but you will later... Even very soon now... For that, which is of Myself, must now return to Me... And where I am will you also find love’s completion, for there is no love apart from Me. Even as The Father and The Son can in no wise be divided, in the same way, neither shall any, who are Mine, ever be divided from Me...

I AM THE SOURCE OF LIFE!...

Nothing exists apart from Me!​

And if nothing can exist apart from Me... Yea, nothing can be outside The Father or His will...Then why, I ask you, do you fear, as though I am not able at this very moment, to set in order ALL things which the Father had ordained from the beginning?...

I AM THE LORD OVER ALL CREATION!


And if I am Lord over all things,
Then I shall surely do everything,
Which is in My heart to do, concerning My beloved...

For they are the heart of My heart...

My breath is in them...

Behold, they are living souls,
Made after the kind in which they were created...


I...


AM...


HE.​

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Excerpt from:​

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The First of Many​

http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=The_First_of_Many​

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I wish people would get back to discussing Romans 11:25 instead of squabbling over unrelated topics.

Thanks.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, Arnie Manitoba.

I wish people would get back to discussing Romans 11:25 instead of squabbling over unrelated topics.

Thanks.

Hey, no problem! I LOVE Romans 11 because, for me, it is so clear a teaching that Isra'el the NATION, the PEOPLE, the FAMILY (not this false "Isra'el" concept that many call the "Church"), will be grafted into the Olive Tree once again.


Romans 11:25-29
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV

The KEY WORD in verse 25 is that little word "until," and by way of contrast with the word "Gentiles," it should be obvious to anybody who is even half thinking that "Israel" is the nation that could be contrasted with "Gentile" nations. AFTER the Gentiles have had their day - their heyday, if you will - God will again work with His original people, bringing them back to Himself.

So many today think that repentance must come before God takes away their sins, but the wording here is BACKWARDS! His COVENANT to them is WHEN He takes away their sins!

The quotation of Paul here is from Psalm 14:7 (NOT from Isaiah 59:20, as many reference works suggest)! David understood that it must be GOD'S righteousness imputed to us, not any of our own!

However, this shouldn't come as any great surprise. Do we come to God by repenting of our sins, or does God DRAW us TO HIMSELF in SPITE of our sins? Repentance is NOT how one comes to God. Repentance is the RESULT of having already come to God because God drew us to Himself!



Psalm 14:7
7 Oh that the salvation (Yeshu`ah) of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.
KJV

Psalm 32:1-2
32 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
KJV

Even after we have become children of God by being born again, we don't please God by doing righteousnesses on our own; it must be the Spirit of God who works within us!


Galatians 3:1-12
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
KJV

God's justification of an individual doesn't come from any righteousness which he or she has done!

Titus 3:4-7

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
KJV

And, don't forget the example that Yeshua` Himself gave:


Luke 18:10-14
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
KJV

So, we should not find it strange that the Isra'elites will be forgiven for their sins in SPITE of their sins purely on the basis of God's incredible mercy.

 

[veteran]

I wish people would get back to discussing Romans 11:25 instead of squabbling over unrelated topics.

Thanks.

I think that discussion is already been worn out.

Those like Retrobyter want to think it means SPECIAL PRIVLEDGES to UNBELIEVING Jews when Christ returns, when Paul says they are cut off because of unbelief.


Rom 11:19-23
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
(KJV)

Where is that saying UNBELIEVING ISRAEL will be saved??? Their being saved by Christ is ONLY under the condition that they BELIEVE on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, The Messsiah.

That condition is REPEATED in Isaiah where Paul was pulling from in the Rom.11:26-27 verses also.


Here's Christ's warning about the sad state unbelieving Jews will be in at His return...


Luke 23:27-31
27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented Him.
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.'
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us'; and to the hills, 'Cover us.'
31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?"
(KJV)


That event is associated with the following prophecies...


Isa 2:17-21
17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
18 And the idols He shall utterly abolish.
19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty, when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty, when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
(KJV)

Hosea 10:8
8 The high places also of Aven, the sin of Israel, shall be destroyed: the thorn and the thistle shall come up on their altars; and they shall say to the mountains, "Cover us"; and to the hills, "Fall on us."
(KJV)

Rev 6:15-17
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
(KJV)


What does that reveal the orthodox unbelieving Jews, and deceived world will be doing just PRIOR to that coming by Christ Jesus?

It shows how they will be doing IDOL worship!!!

That's why Jesus told those daughters of Jerusalem at His crucifixion to not weep for Him, but for theirselves, AND for their children (final generation that will see Christ's coming).

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

I think that discussion is already been worn out.

Those like Retrobyter want to think it means SPECIAL PRIVLEDGES to UNBELIEVING Jews when Christ returns, when Paul says they are cut off because of unbelief.

Rom 11:19-23
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
(KJV)

Where is that saying UNBELIEVING ISRAEL will be saved??? Their being saved by Christ is ONLY under the condition that they BELIEVE on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, The Messsiah.

That condition is REPEATED in Isaiah where Paul was pulling from in the Rom.11:26-27 verses also.


Here's Christ's warning about the sad state unbelieving Jews will be in at His return...

Luke 23:27-31
27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented Him.
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.'
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us'; and to the hills, 'Cover us.'
31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?"
(KJV)


That event is associated with the following prophecies...

Isa 2:17-21
17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
18 And the idols He shall utterly abolish.
19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty, when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty, when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
(KJV)

Hosea 10:8
8 The high places also of Aven, the sin of Israel, shall be destroyed: the thorn and the thistle shall come up on their altars; and they shall say to the mountains, "Cover us"; and to the hills, "Fall on us."
(KJV)

Rev 6:15-17
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
(KJV)


What does that reveal the orthodox unbelieving Jews, and deceived world will be doing just PRIOR to that coming by Christ Jesus?

It shows how they will be doing IDOL worship!!!

That's why Jesus told those daughters of Jerusalem at His crucifixion to not weep for Him, but for theirselves, AND for their children (final generation that will see Christ's coming).

LOL!!! ROFL!!! How IRONIC (or is it "MORONIC") can you get?! How can you quote Romans 11:23, and boldface it, and get ANYTHING OUT OF IT OTHER THAN WHAT IT SAYS?! You truly ARE "meshuggah!" And, while we're at it, where in Romans 11 does it say, "Their being saved by Christ is ONLY under the condition that they BELIEVE on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, The Messiah"? That is strictly YOUR INTERPRETATION of what YOU think it means to "abide not still in unbelief!"

"Methinks that thou dost protest ASSUME too much!"

For instance, doesn't it make MORE SENSE to believe that Yeshua` was warning the batot Yerushalayim (daughters of Jerusalem) of something that would happen in THEIR LIFETIMES and in the LIFETIMES OF THEIR CHILDREN?! Just 40 years from His crucifixion and resurrection, the Romans would retaliate for rebellions against Rome, and the Temple would be destroyed. Women would be raped; children would be killed; the people would suffer indignities, torture, and hardship, and many of them would be deported to other nations within the Roman Empire. Some would die quickly, but many others would suffer lingering deaths! Those who were besieged within the walls of Yerushalayim would do despicable things in the throes of starvation and in desperation!

You put this warning off to a time 2,000 years later?! WHY?! Because it says they would "say to the mountains, 'Fall on us'; and to the hills, 'Cover us'"?! Don't you think it's possible for more than one group of people at more than one time period to say something similar? Why WOULDN'T people who are going to die anyway wish for themselves a speedy and decisive death so there would be no suffering? No, this is Yeshua`s warning to the Jews of the first century.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Shabbat shalom, Arnie Manitoba.


Hey, no problem! I LOVE Romans 11 because, for me, it is so clear a teaching that Isra'el the NATION, the PEOPLE, the FAMILY (not this false "Isra'el" concept that many call the "Church"), will be grafted into the Olive Tree once again.

The KEY WORD in verse 25 is that little word "until," and by way of contrast with the word "Gentiles," it should be obvious to anybody who is even half thinking that "Israel" is the nation that could be contrasted with "Gentile" nations. AFTER the Gentiles have had their day - their heyday, if you will - God will again work with His original people, bringing them back to Himself.

So many today think that repentance must come before God takes away their sins, but the wording here is BACKWARDS! His COVENANT to them is WHEN He takes away their sins!

Exactly ..... I find this so utterly simple to understand ..... and Romans lays it out so clearly and systematically ...... I am eternally puzzled why so many Christians refuse to believe Romans.

It is like they have convinced themselves they are Israel and their minds are closed . I am not sure what they hope to gain from pretending they are Israel.

I even expect some of them think The New Jerusalem will come down to their front yard some day.

It is a bizarre situation on all counts.

 

[veteran]

Shalom, veteran.


LOL!!! ROFL!!! How IRONIC (or is it "MORONIC") can you get?! How can you quote Romans 11:23, and boldface it, and get ANYTHING OUT OF IT OTHER THAN WHAT IT SAYS?! You truly ARE "meshuggah!" And, while we're at it, where in Romans 11 does it say, "Their being saved by Christ is ONLY under the condition that they BELIEVE on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, The Messiah"? That is strictly YOUR INTERPRETATION of what YOU think it means to "abide not still in unbelief!"

"Methinks that thou dost protest ASSUME too much!"

For instance, doesn't it make MORE SENSE to believe that Yeshua` was warning the batot Yerushalayim (daughters of Jerusalem) of something that would happen in THEIR LIFETIMES and in the LIFETIMES OF THEIR CHILDREN?! Just 40 years from His crucifixion and resurrection, the Romans would retaliate for rebellions against Rome, and the Temple would be destroyed. Women would be raped; children would be killed; the people would suffer indignities, torture, and hardship, and many of them would be deported to other nations within the Roman Empire. Some would die quickly, but many others would suffer lingering deaths! Those who were besieged within the walls of Yerushalayim would do despicable things in the throes of starvation and in desperation!

You put this warning off to a time 2,000 years later?! WHY?! Because it says they would "say to the mountains, 'Fall on us'; and to the hills, 'Cover us'"?! Don't you think it's possible for more than one group of people at more than one time period to say something similar? Why WOULDN'T people who are going to die anyway wish for themselves a speedy and decisive death so there would be no suffering? No, this is Yeshua`s warning to the Jews of the first century.

No, your PRETERIST thinking just ain't gonna' get 'er done.

Those Scriptures I quoted which are all linked together as to the SAME timing for the end of this world when Jesus returns, HAS NOT HAPPENED YET TODAY!

But you can TRY... to push Preterist lies here, even the lie that Jesus' second coming also happened back 2000 years ago, but it ain't gonna' work. Most of the brethren here already understand most of the worst dangers of Preterist doctrine and doctrines of the Jews.

Exactly ..... I find this so utterly simple to understand ..... and Romans lays it out so clearly and systematically ...... I am eternally puzzled why so many Christians refuse to believe Romans.

It is like they have convinced themselves they are Israel and their minds are closed . I am not sure what they hope to gain from pretending they are Israel.

I even expect some of them think The New Jerusalem will come down to their front yard some day.

It is a bizarre situation on all counts.

Ah, don't let him deceive you, Apostle Paul's Rom.11:26-27 verses where he quoted OT Scripture about Israel being saved is in the following context...

Isa 59:20
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
(KJV)


Refusing to believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, Messiah, is... a transgression against The LORD. The majority of Jews will still refuse Christ Jesus all the way up to His second coming and appearance in Jerusalem. That's what those Scriptures I quoted shows, even pointing to how they will instead be caught doing IDOL worship just prior to Christ's coming.

Much of Preterist doctrine is designed to make one think the only prophecies to be fulfilled today are the restoration of Israel per the prophets, and the return of Jesus (some of them even believe Jesus already returned in His Apostle's days). Problem is Christ showed the greatest time of temptation is coming on this earth for the very last days just prior to His coming with a false messiah sitting in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, which the majority of Jews will... worship as Messiah in place of Christ Jesus.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Arnie, and have a great Yom Chayuwt haChadashah (Day of the New Life, aka Resurrection)!

Exactly ..... I find this so utterly simple to understand ..... and Romans lays it out so clearly and systematically ...... I am eternally puzzled why so many Christians refuse to believe Romans.

It is like they have convinced themselves they are Israel and their minds are closed . I am not sure what they hope to gain from pretending they are Israel.

I even expect some of them think The New Jerusalem will come down to their front yard some day.

It is a bizarre situation on all counts.

Yes, but it is (sort of) understandable. I mean, for the LONGEST time, there WAS no Isra'el. So, those who claimed Christianity but forgot their Jewish roots and were even antagonistic against the Jews as "Christ-killers" were BOUND to come up with such a replacement mentality. However, it is QUITE TIME to change their thinking back to the views of the early church BEFORE all the anti-Semitism took over.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Refusing to believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, Messiah, is... a transgression against The LORD. The majority of Jews will still refuse Christ Jesus all the way up to His second coming and appearance in Jerusalem. That's what those Scriptures I quoted shows, even pointing to how they will instead be caught doing IDOL worship just prior to Christ's coming.

of course the majority of Jews refuse Jesus .... they are unsaved and disobedient .... that is not the issue ..... and I have never made the claim that they are saved simply because they are Jews.

That is where you get confused every time veteran.

God still has plans for Israel in spite of their unbelief and disobedience .... and those plans are for Israel .... they are not about the church.

When "all Israel is saved" .... God will do it through Christ of course ..... as a matter of fact He has already done it ..... the Jews just dont realize it yet.

The Jews eventually have terrible shame for how they trampled the Son of God underfoot

 

[veteran]

of course the majority of Jews refuse Jesus .... they are unsaved and disobedient .... that is not the issue ..... and I have never made the claim that they are saved simply because they are Jews.

That is where you get confused every time veteran.

God still has plans for Israel in spite of their unbelief and disobedience .... and those plans are for Israel .... they are not about the church.

When "all Israel is saved" .... God will do it through Christ of course ..... as a matter of fact He has already done it ..... the Jews just dont realize it yet.

The Jews eventually have terrible shame for how they trampled the Son of God underfoot

Don't think I'm the once confused brother.

Retrobyter is the one that doesn't like me pointing out Scripture about many of his brethren falling to idol worship in Jerusalem for the very end of this world prior to Christ's coming. My response to you was in relation to what he's been pushing here.

You, like others here, are very wrong... about Christ's Church and its association with God's concept of Israel per Scripture. Christ's Church represents Israel in the Promises. And everyone, including Jews and Gentiles, must be graffed in to be saved by Christ Jesus. Or did you forget that God first gave Abraham the Promise by Faith, the SAME Promise we Christians have believed on through Jesus Christ?

Today's generation of unbelieving Jews are going to have their own actions of false idol worship to contend with when Jesus returns. That's what the prophecy about being in shame and wanting the hills and mountains to fall on them will be about when Jesus comes. That is also... going to include many of my Christian brethren also, but why?

It's because the coming false messiah the orthodox Jews will bow to in near future Jerusalem will also be done by deceived Christian brethren! Paul's "strong delusion" is not just upon unbelieving Jews and unbelieving Gentiles. It will be upon anyone... that allows themselves to be deceived by the coming pseudo-Christ in Jerusalem to sit in a temple there and demand to be worshipped as God.

 

[iamlamad]

Don't think I'm the once confused brother.

Retrobyter is the one that doesn't like me pointing out Scripture about many of his brethren falling to idol worship in Jerusalem for the very end of this world prior to Christ's coming. My response to you was in relation to what he's been pushing here.

You, like others here, are very wrong... about Christ's Church and its association with God's concept of Israel per Scripture. Christ's Church represents Israel in the Promises. And everyone, including Jews and Gentiles, must be graffed in to be saved by Christ Jesus. Or did you forget that God first gave Abraham the Promise by Faith, the SAME Promise we Christians have believed on through Jesus Christ?

Today's generation of unbelieving Jews are going to have their own actions of false idol worship to contend with when Jesus returns. That's what the prophecy about being in shame and wanting the hills and mountains to fall on them will be about when Jesus comes. That is also... going to include many of my Christian brethren also, but why?

It's because the coming false messiah the orthodox Jews will bow to in near future Jerusalem will also be done by deceived Christian brethren! Paul's "strong delusion" is not just upon unbelieving Jews and unbelieving Gentiles. It will be upon anyone... that allows themselves to be deceived by the coming pseudo-Christ in Jerusalem to sit in a temple there and demand to be worshipped as God.

No Veteran, YOU are the one confused. You are confusing the church age with the time of the 70th week. How many times must I write, this is NOT the 70th week of Paul, being a time for the CHURCH. It is the 70th week of Daniel, a time for the JEWS. At this time the DOOR of the church will have CLOSED. Did you forget about the 5 foolish virgins? CLOSED never to open again. The grafting in will be OVER with. The idea of neither Jew nor Greek but all in Christ is DONE, OVER, and the door closed. This is not the 70th week of the church - it is the 70th week for JEWS. "“Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, WHOA! STOP!

WHich people?
Which city?

Sorry, but this is speaking of ISRAEL and Jerusalem. You are frequently trying to force a square peg into a round whole, and here you are doing it again. Veteran, it DOES NOT WORK. God made promises to ISRAEL that were not for the church and for the Church that most of Israel has not believed.

Lamad

 

[Trumpeter]

No Veteran, YOU are the one confused. You are confusing the church age with the time of the 70th week. How many times must I write, this is NOT the 70th week of Paul, being a time for the CHURCH. It is the 70th week of Daniel, a time for the JEWS. At this time the DOOR of the church will have CLOSED. Did you forget about the 5 foolish virgins? CLOSED never to open again. The grafting in will be OVER with. The idea of neither Jew nor Greek but all in Christ is DONE, OVER, and the door closed. This is not the 70th week of the church - it is the 70th week for JEWS. "“Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, WHOA! STOP!

WHich people?
Which city?

Sorry, but this is speaking of ISRAEL and Jerusalem. You are frequently trying to force a square peg into a round whole, and here you are doing it again. Veteran, it DOES NOT WORK. God made promises to ISRAEL that were not for the church and for the Church that most of Israel has not believed.

Lamad

Amen, Jacob is Israel.

Gen 32:28 And He said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed."


The 70th week is the time of Jacob's trouble.

Jer 30:7 Alas! For that day [is] great, So that none [is] like it; And it [is] the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it.

God bless.

 

[veteran]

No Veteran, YOU are the one confused. You are confusing the church age with the time of the 70th week. How many times must I write, this is NOT the 70th week of Paul, being a time for the CHURCH. It is the 70th week of Daniel, a time for the JEWS. At this time the DOOR of the church will have CLOSED. Did you forget about the 5 foolish virgins? CLOSED never to open again. The grafting in will be OVER with. The idea of neither Jew nor Greek but all in Christ is DONE, OVER, and the door closed. This is not the 70th week of the church - it is the 70th week for JEWS. "“Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, WHOA! STOP!

WHich people?
Which city?

Sorry, but this is speaking of ISRAEL and Jerusalem. You are frequently trying to force a square peg into a round whole, and here you are doing it again. Veteran, it DOES NOT WORK. God made promises to ISRAEL that were not for the church and for the Church that most of Israel has not believed.

Lamad

The one thing I definitely am not is confused on this issue of Bible prophecy.

I don't recognize your term "70th week of Paul" from men's doctrine. Paul was not given a 70 weeks prophecy; he only REPEATED specifics from the 70 weeks prophecy Daniel was given.

So there's YOUR first point of confusion you are on. Stop applying the 70 weeks prophecy given to Daniel with assigning it to Paul instead. That association doesn't work.

Because you obviously haven't studied The Old Testament prophets, you don't understand who all Christ's Church is made up of today:

Short Summary:
1. God split the old kingdom of Israel into two kingdoms, "house of Judah" = Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and these became those known as the Jews, also called "kingdom of Judah" in God's Word. The northern ten tribes made up the nothern kingdom of Israel, also known as the "house of Israel" in God's Word. In most... cases after that split, when Israel is mentioned, it is ONLY about the ten tribes and not the Jews.

2. God scattered the ten tribed kingdom of the house of Israel out of the holy land first, captive to the land of the Medes and Assyria by the kings of Assyria. The Jews of the "house of Judah" only were left in the holy land in the southern lands. Two separate histories then begin, one for each house.

3. The ten tribes NEVER returned back to the holy lands of promise. They were further scatttered among the Gentiles. Archaeological evidence shows the majority of them migrated westward, into Asia Minor and Europe. The majority of the Jews were taken captive later to Babylon and only a small remnant of the Jews did return to Jerusalem. The rest of the Jews captive to Babylon stayed in Babylon, and then were scattered further like the ten lost tribes were.

4. When Christ came and died on the cross, and The Gospel went forth, it began with a small remant at Jerusalem, and then was sent where? to East Asia? No. To China? No. To Africa? Some, but actually no. The Gospel was sent to Asia Minor and Europe, to the Gentiles there, and thus began the founding of the western Christian nations of history.

Asia Minor and Europe which became the early Christian nations just so happend to be where the majority of the seed of Israel was scattered to. That means... The Gospel went to SCATTERED ISRAEL among the Gentiles, and BOTH TOGETHER would believe on Jesus Christ as God's Promised Saviour making up Christ's Body, His Church!

So WHO is teaching you to try and wrongly SEPARATE the believers of the Seed of Israel apart from Christ's Church??? Hmm....???

Deceivers... are the ones teaching you to do that!


What's truly funny is how the early Dispensationalists USED to teach THIS very thing I've outlined above!!!
Now what I've been pointing to about the unbelieving Jews (i.e., "house of Judah" - only 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi), is how Christ warned their ancestors of His coming (which is still future), and how they would wish for the hills and rocks to fall on them because of shame at His appearing. Those relevant Scriptures I quotes also point to their being found guilty of idol worship when He comes.

Does that apply ONLY to deceived unbelieving orthodox Jews though? Nope! It applies to ANYONE caught in that deception (i.e., Paul's "strong delusion" idea of 2 Thess.2).

The five foolish virgins represent BELIEVERS. Jesus showed in Matt.25 how ALL ten virgins were waiting for coming of The Bridegroom and all slept to the midnight hour. That period of slumber is directly related to the tribulation timing. So EVEN with that parable, there is NO Pre-Trib Rapture being shown there!

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Dispensationalists say in the Bible Israel must always be physical Israel, not some spiritual construct. Therefore by dispensationalist definition, Israel in verse 26 must be physical Israel and therefore Paul is predicting that at some time all physical Israel will be saved.

This interpretation contradicts Paul's statement in verse 20 that the Jews were broken off because of unbelief.

Rex ... I am not wanting to prolong the agony but have snipped the above from your opening post.

Originally the Gentiles were not the recipients of the promise .... they were un-godly pagans for the most part ...... but after hearing the Gospel they became believers as we all know

We also know many in Israel were not believers.

We know God broke off the branch of the olive tree (Israel) containing the unbelieving Israelites

In its place we know God grafted a branch into the olive tree (Israel) for us Gentiles to partake of the promise along with the Jews ..... (we did not become the Jews .... or Israel)

I think we could all agree on most of the above ...... but here is where we all get upset and mixed up ...

God said he will re-attach the "broken off branch" some day in the future (if the Jews do not continue in un-beleif.)

It appears it will be retroactive to include all the Jewish unbelievers since the time of Christ

A Jew can become a believer today and he does not need the broken branch grafted back in to be saved ..... so the re-attached branch must be for the historical unbeleiving jews up until that time

I expect that some day most (if not all) of Israel will believe in Messiah .... and that is when the branch will be grafted back in to include the unbelieving Jews of the last 2000 years ..... thus fulfills the verse "all Israel will be saved"

Sounds rather convoluted .... I know ..... but we are clearly told as much in Romans 11:16

If the part of the dough offered as first fruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

A careful reading of Romans lays it out systematically and better than I do

it should not be difficult for us to understand

If we want to.

 

[Rex]

Rex ... I am not wanting to prolong the agony but have snipped the above from your opening post.

Originally the Gentiles were not the recipients of the promise .... they were un-godly pagans for the most part ...... but after hearing the Gospel they became believers as we all know

We also know many in Israel were not believers.

Take it up with Paul Gal 3:8 and Abraham Gen 22:18



As for the rest of your comment

and that is when the branch will be grafted back in to include the unbelieving Jews of the last 2000 years ..... thus fulfills the verse "all Israel will be saved"

Please see this post http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18493-the-tabernacle-experienceis-it-really-new/page-3#entry201860
You might like to start at the top of the page


And because many don't bother to follow links I'll post it here as well

Thats an interesting read a good eye daq.
But I see something else, I don't believe that the sour grape proverb was ever inspired by God. Notice His opening statement through Ezek

Ezek 18:1-2
Ezek 18:1-2 NIV 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:
Ezek 18:1-2 KJV 2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying,
Ezek 18:1-2 ESV 2 “What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel,

Then of course we see verse 3
Ezek 18:1-2 NIV 3 “As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel.
Ezek 18:1-2 KJV 3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
Ezek 18:1-2 ESV 3 As I live, declares the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.

Now I would like all of you people that have heard your paster tell you that Romans 11:25 means that God has blinded the nation of Israel until the end times when the "miss placed" 70th week is said the be fulfilled, to consider what I'm about to say.

Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

I ask you this, is this a generational blindness that your pasters are teaching you? Can you not clearly see the pasters teaching such things are simply repeating the errors of Israels past? Clearly God is not at all pleased with this proverb,

Ezek 18:2-3 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:

‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

Just be careful who you listen to, and believe only what the Lord has placed upon your heart, search the scriptures to see what you have heard is true.
That proverb is being used every day through out most of the churches in the US.

The really sad thing about it is, most people believe it

And their about to go into captivity

Just as it happened in the past, please remember the whore and what was written on her forehead
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS
OF THE EARTH.

Babylon that's what was written,

The very same thing Ezek and Jer were warning Israel about, captivity

In Babylon

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Take it up with Paul Gal 3:8 and Abraham Gen 22:18

HUH ???? ... it says all nations will be blessed through Abraham and his offspring ..... no kidding ..... we comprise those nations who are blessed .... nothing new here ..... but if you are using that to make the claim that all nations are now Israel ..... that would be an incredibly bizarre interpretation

 

[daq]

Deuteronomy 32:7-9 KJV
7. Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee.
8. When the most high divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children [bney-sons] of Israel.
9. For the Lord's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

The number of the children of Israel = 12 Sons ~ 12 Tribes
12 Tribes = The boundaries-borders-coasts of all peoples
6 (Adam-Man) x 12 (Tribes) = 72 Nations (Genesis 10 Table of Nations)

The inheritance of the Nations is bound up in the Twelve Tribes of Israel.
The inheritance of the Nations comes only through grafting into the All Israel of the Olive Tree of YHWH.

Matthew 15:24 RSV
24. He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Then of course we see verse 3
Ezek 18:1-2 NIV 3 “As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel.
Ezek 18:1-2 KJV 3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
Ezek 18:1-2 ESV 3 As I live, declares the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.

Completely unrelated ..... the message of Eze 18 is that every individual is responsible for their own sin .... if a parent sins (eats sour grapes) .... the results will not be transferred to the child. (child's teeth set on edge)

It is an untrue proverb ..... and for that reason that proverb shall no longer be spoken in Israel.

You are trying to twist it to say there will not be an Israel to say a proverb in ... sheesh !!!!

.....................

And if anyone insists Eze 18 should be applied today you must also agree that an Israelite can be righteous without Christ by reading the following ...


5 “Suppose there is a righteous man
who does what is just and right.
6 He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor’s wife
or have sexual relations with a woman during her period.
7 He does not oppress anyone,
but returns what he took in pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.
8 He does not lend to them at interest
or take a profit from them.
He withholds his hand from doing wrong
and judges fairly between two parties.
9 He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign Lord.

............................

I find it absolutely bizarre that someone would use EZE 18 to disprove Romans 11

 

[Rex]

HUH ???? ... it says all nations will be blessed through Abraham and his offspring ..... no kidding ..... we comprise those nations who are blessed .... nothing new here ..... but if you are using that to make the claim that all nations are now Israel ..... that would be an incredibly bizarre interpretation

I marvel at the way peoples minds work "all nations are now Israel"

You know the verse Arnie
Romans 9:6-8 ESV
Gal 4:28-29 ESV sound familiar? he who was born to the flesh persecuted him who was born of the Spirit see Gal 4:23 for clarification.

How about you simply should have read Gal in the first place
The promise to Abraham was never even unto his blood line, did you get this part Paul says that the decedents of Abraham by virtue of birth have no right to the promise. I'll have to switch to the KJV or the NIV because the ESV is watered down with the word offspring instead of seed, Gal 3:16 John the Baptist first confirmed this when he said, Matthew 3:9

I'm getting rather tired of repeating myself Arnie There are more verses and you've heard them all before I'm sure. But I got a chuckle out of your new presentation "all nations are now Israel" ------->>>>>he who was born to the flesh persecuted him who was born of the Spirit see Gal 4:23 for clarification.

What a creative way to put words in someones mouth

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

The number of the children of Israel = 12 Sons ~ 12 Tribes
12 Tribes = The boundaries-borders-coasts of all peoples
6 (Adam-Man) x 12 (Tribes) = 72 Nations (Genesis 10 Table of Nations)

Completely wacko daq

As usual

That is the politest way I can say it. Sorry.