The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

dragonfly

Well-Known Member
Apr 19, 2012
1,882
141
63
UK
Hi Purity,

Your fixation with the word 'Jew' is what put me off attempting an answer, because you very little that you write about it, suggests you are using the New Testament definition given by Paul. So, if you would join with me in agreeing with Paul in Romans 2:29 '... he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God, we might be able to proceed.

By having quoted 'king of the Jews' twice, which in the minds of those at the time was a reference to the political management of a local ethnic group, in no way conveyed to me that you were talking about the New Covenant definition of Jew (which I espouse).

So, when you've clarified which kind of 'Jew' you have in mind - because of course Jesus was both - and will be both to all of His followers (because they will all be Jews inwardly, even if they were never ethnically Israelite), I will be clearer which question you are asking. (Is your Christ King of the Jews?)

I realise there is an argument to say that He will be king of the unbelievers too, because every knee will bow to Him. That I accept, but it didn't seem to be what you are talking about. The people in His kingdom enjoying the benefits of His kingship, will be those who are doing His Father's will. We could talk forever about what might be going on with those who bow the knee to Him although not espousing His kingship in their hearts, but we won't.

Whether you realise it or not, the way you have written so far about 'the Jews' and 'national Israel' in this thread, your question to me about Caesar is the height of hypocrisy, because your eyes seem to be focused entirely on the flesh (as was those whose 'king' was Caesar). That is, the flesh which Jesus said 'profits nothing'. I do completely understand that God works through people, and He is very keen to 'save' 'the Jews', but just like of old, He cannot force anyone to receive Him. And He has shown Himself more than able to keep His word to destroy those who refuse to hear Him. Acts 3:23



 

Purity

New Member
May 20, 2013
1,064
15
0
Melbourne
dragonfly said:
Hi Purity,

Your fixation with the word 'Jew' is what put me off attempting an answer,
How is it a single word could stop you in your tracks? Say it with me "Jesus Christ is a Jew"


because you very little that you write about it, suggests you are using the New Testament definition given by Paul. So, if you would join with me in agreeing with Paul in Romans 2:29 '... he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God, we might be able to proceed.
Lets try this another way shall we "Jesus Christ was a naturally born Jew after the stock of Abraham" AND he was as Paul writes "the" Jew inwardly of the heart by the Spirit by which he was justified (made right).

Its interesting you cannot see Jesus as a natural Jew as per:

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; (Rom 1:3)

If you are not able to link Jesus with humanity, your faith is in vain and you would be without hope (said with all seriousness). The extension of Jesus being of the seed (natural offspring) of David makes him a Jew i.e King of the Jews.

"who, as to his human nature, was descended from David." Christ is the "root and offspring of David" (Rev 22:16). In fact if you cannot say "Jesus is a Jew to this day" even in his immortal state then you cannot see the essential element in these verses which teach Jesus as the Royal descendant to the throne no Israel.

Not only have you lost your Messiah but also your High Priest and your Kingdom.

This really is fundamental Bible truth and I would be surprised if you kicked against it...maybe against me but not these Bible truths.




I realise there is an argument to say that He will be king of the unbelievers too, because every knee will bow to Him. That I accept, but it didn't seem to be what you are talking about. The people in His kingdom enjoying the benefits of His kingship, will be those who are doing His Father's will. We could talk forever about what might be going on with those who bow the knee to Him although not espousing His kingship in their hearts, but we won't.
Lets say this - if you could speak to Jesus Kingship in its rightful context we may have a common ground but at present your vagueness concerning Jesus as King of the Jews is a real thread stopper.

Basically you make his death in vain.

Maybe you should consider why this title was written in three different languages? (John 19:20) And take that lesson to heart. Maybe you should consider his crown of thrones and their mocking of his Kingship? Maybe you should appreciate he was BORN King of the Jews Matt 2:2 and died King of the Jews? Maybe you should read Ezek 21:27 to see whose RIGHT it is to take up that Israelitish throne?

Or are you the mocking voice of Luke 23:37?

Your clarity in this is disturbing.

Purity
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
1,783
45
48
66
Tampa Bay, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shalom, Purity.

Purity said:
facepalm-hand-gesture-smiley-emoticon.gif




This post is good old fashioned nonsense of a deluded kind.

Of course if he believes this, and doubtless he does, he has just denied himself the unique blessings to those who read and understand the book - Rev 1:3 "front" till the "end" Rev 22:7

Note, its a single prophecy inclusive of all the letters to the seven Ekklesia's.

Your comment only reveals an ignorance of the things written therein.

Purity
Y'know, you CAN talk directly to me instead of talking ABOUT me. I can read your posts just as you can read mine.

Y'all are just TOO application-oriented. Not everything in the Scriptures are about some analogy or some parable or some allegory! Figurative language requires a fundamental reality upon which the figurative language draws. For instance, what good is the phrase "dead as a door nail" if you don't know what a "door nail" is or if there's no such thing as a "door nail?"

What good is saying that the "church" is the "true Israel" if there's no "false Isra'el" (falsely so-called) by which to compare? THINK ABOUT IT!

ON THE OTHER HAND, I didn't say that I couldn't learn from these Messianic communities of the first century! Furthermore, you're ASSUMING that I am talking about the END of each sub-letter! That's NOT what I was saying!

Allow me to use the following as an example:


Revelation 3:1-6
3 "To the angela of the church in Sardis write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven spiritsb of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
NIV

I'm using the NIV for clarification to those who might have problems with the "king's English" of the KJV. The majority of the letter, from verse 3b to 4, is about the Messianic community in Sardis. THAT is the portion that does not directly apply to me. Notice how the rest of the letter is NOT about this Messianic community: "He who overcomes will, LIKE THEM, be dressed in white!" This part DOES apply to me and anyone else with "ears to hear." Please don't label me an IDIOT or STUPID!
 

Purity

New Member
May 20, 2013
1,064
15
0
Melbourne
Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Purity.
Shalom

Y'know, you CAN talk directly to me instead of talking ABOUT me. I can read your posts just as you can read mine.
Yes the forum is rather open isn't it?

Y'all are just TOO application-oriented. Not everything in the Scriptures are about some analogy or some parable or some allegory!
Gen 21 and Gal 4 is without doubt the great allegory in the Holy Scriptures and by it is the true Gospel unlocked. This allegory has opened numerous others and no doubt many still remain unopened - its how God and Christ speak you know? In parables, allegories and riddles.

Figurative language requires a fundamental reality upon which the figurative language draws. For instance, what good is the phrase "dead as a door nail" if you don't know what a "door nail" is or if there's no such thing as a "door nail?"

What good is saying that the "church" is the "true Israel" if there's no "false Isra'el" (falsely so-called) by which to compare? THINK ABOUT IT!

ON THE OTHER HAND, I didn't say that I couldn't learn from these Messianic communities of the first century! Furthermore, you're ASSUMING that I am talking about the END of each sub-letter! That's NOT what I was saying!

Allow me to use the following as an example:


Revelation 3:1-6
3 "To the angela of the church in Sardis write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven spiritsb of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
NIV

I'm using the NIV for clarification to those who might have problems with the "king's English" of the KJV. The majority of the letter, from verse 3b to 4, is about the Messianic community in Sardis. THAT is the portion that does not directly apply to me. Notice how the rest of the letter is NOT about this Messianic community: "He who overcomes will, LIKE THEM, be dressed in white!" This part DOES apply to me and anyone else with "ears to hear." Please don't label me an IDIOT or STUPID!
Lets ask some questions of the Sardis Ecclesia and see if they can apply to todays Ecclesia's?

1. Rev 3:1 "You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead"

Is it possible for communities of believers to be in this state nearly some 2000 years on from when this was written? Only your pride would say no. Have you noticed how Sardis and Laodicea have no enemies either inside or outside the body? Why is this?

What was the caused of their spiritual deadness? Many indulgences? Pleasure seeking? Was it a lack of prayer? Not being watchful? Did they fail to preach the testimony of the truth?

The reality Retro is you limit the Word of God like many Christians today because you take an authorative stance and not heeding the message as a servant.

You need to place yourself by faith into each of these Ecclesias and learn the same lessons the Master taught them - every single lesson!

Imagine Retro in the audience at Sardis as this letter was read out?

And you say "this wasn't written for me!"

Please don't label me an IDIOT or STUPID!
Maybe if you ceased from labelling the Word of God as being irrelevant these words would not apply.

Rev 3:2 WAKE UP!!!or "Be watchful": ref prayer (Mat 26:38; Mat 26:41; Luk 21:36; Eph 6:18; Col 4:2). Cited from Neh 7:3; Ezr 8:29.

And this doesn't apply to you?

Need I provide an exposition of the first 6 verses to show you their relevance to the Sons of God?

It is enough.


I hear you all say its not enough!

Why is the lesson of Sardis so needful today - especially for Retor?

Believers are to be watchful for the following reasons:

(l)-Because they know not the time of the Lord's coming (Mat 24:41; Mat 25:13; Mar 13:35; Mar 13:37).
(2)-In order to guard against temptation (Mat 26:41; Mar 14:38).
(3)-So as to recognise error (Act 20:31).
(4)-In prayer (Col 4:2).
(5)-Inview of prophetic signs (1Th 5:6).
(6)-To obtain a blessing (Rev 16:15).
(7)-To receive the reward (Luk 12:37-38).

Retro don't fight agains the Lord and His Spirit.

Heed to the Word and live.
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
1,783
45
48
66
Tampa Bay, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shalom, David.

Dodo_David said:
Wow. This thread has degraded into personal attacks. How sad.
So very true. I'm not going to put up with it any longer. They drag me through the mud purely because I accept the Scriptures at face value?! THEY ARE WRONG TO ALLEGORIZE THE SCRIPTURES AWAY LIKE THEY WERE SO MUCH TRASH!

SHALOM, daq!

daq said:
Still nothing but the flesh in your responses Retrobyter? And how convenient that Acts 15 really no longer applies, (for you anyways) and likewise, by your same reasoning herein, then the seven letters to the seven churches of the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua were also not written to you and, therefore, must also not really apply to you. The most common, deadly, and destructive idol that a man can have in his vain imagination is the image of himself, (Daniel 3) which is his Baal. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" says the Most High. :)
Still nothing but the flesh in the RESURRECTION! The VERY thing that we're to be anticipating! We're NEVER told in the Scriptures to anticipate "going to Heaven!" If you don't know that, then WHO is in the dark?
 

Purity

New Member
May 20, 2013
1,064
15
0
Melbourne
Shalom, David.

So very true. I'm not going to put up with it any longer. They drag me through the mud purely because I accept the Scriptures at face value?! THEY ARE WRONG TO ALLEGORIZE THE SCRIPTURES AWAY LIKE THEY WERE SO MUCH TRASH!
You are hurting and frustrated because the Scripture has spoken and the knife cuts deep. When a believer begins to discount sections of Scripture by saying it does not apply to me and then say people are wrong for interpreting allegories such as Gen 21 and Gal 4 which underpin the Christian hope, of course you will feel this way. This is your doing. You haven't spoken against the post (#604)concerning Rev 3:1-2 because you know its true, but your pride cannot acknowledge this because once you do you feel obliged to shift your world/religious view and this also is very hard.

Retro, you will let post #604 slide past you as before because as you say "I take the Bible at face value"

What that means who knows?

Purity
 

Purity

New Member
May 20, 2013
1,064
15
0
Melbourne
Matt 10:34 applied to the Master in all aspects of his teaching and preaching, we all know his servants who weld the same sword will likewise be persecuted. This topic has represented Rom 11:25 well indeed and I believe Pauls prophetic vision out of this chapter has been well defined.

Purity
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
1,783
45
48
66
Tampa Bay, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shalom, Purity.

Purity said:
You are hurting and frustrated because the Scripture has spoken and the knife cuts deep. When a believer begins to discount sections of Scripture by saying it does not apply to me and then say people are wrong for interpreting allegories such as Gen 21 and Gal 4 which underpin the Christian hope, of course you will feel this way. This is your doing. You haven't spoken against the post (#604)concerning Rev 3:1-2 because you know its true, but your pride cannot acknowledge this because once you do you feel obliged to shift your world/religious view and this also is very hard.

Retro, you will let post #604 slide past you as before because as you say "I take the Bible at face value"

What that means who knows?

Purity
The only hurt and frustration I feel is the pity and frustration I feel for my brothers and sisters in the Messiah who are stuck in this mode of thinking! It's a TERRIBLE SHAME that this twisted thinking has been perpetrated for the better part of two millennia!

And, btw, "taking the Bible at face value" simply means to understand the Scriptures as one would ANY piece of literature, by understanding the rules of grammar and literature and understanding the history and the cultural background of the times in which these books were written.

One needs to QUIT READING INTO THE SCRIPTURES what he or she WANTS to see written there, and simply allow the words to flow over him or her! Think exegesis, not eisegesis! One should understand what the authors, both the human author and the Divine Author, were trying to convey in the text, not saying, "This means that" and "that means this!" MAN! This has gotten SO out of hand that the human author, like Paul in his epistles (letters), to hear them "expounded upon" as so many do today, would sit back with his jaw dropped and say, "Wow! I never saw that before! Of course, it's not what I intended to say nor is it what I meant, but ... WOW! How in the world did you get THAT out of what I wrote?!"
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Purity.


The only hurt and frustration I feel is the pity and frustration I feel for my brothers and sisters in the Messiah who are stuck in this mode of thinking! It's a TERRIBLE SHAME that this twisted thinking has been perpetrated for the better part of two millennia!

And, btw, "taking the Bible at face value" simply means to understand the Scriptures as one would ANY piece of literature, by understanding the rules of grammar and literature and understanding the history and the cultural background of the times in which these books were written.

One needs to QUIT READING INTO THE SCRIPTURES what he or she WANTS to see written there, and simply allow the words to flow over him or her! Think exegesis, not eisegesis! One should understand what the authors, both the human author and the Divine Author, were trying to convey in the text, not saying, "This means that" and "that means this!" MAN! This has gotten SO out of hand that the human author, like Paul in his epistles (letters), to hear them "expounded upon" as so many do today, would sit back with his jaw dropped and say, "Wow! I never saw that before! Of course, it's not what I intended to say nor is it what I meant, but ... WOW! How in the world did you get THAT out of what I wrote?!"
So then, Christ Jesus was wrong with teaching 'parables' to the multitudes?

There's so many examples in God's Word of allegory, proverb, parable, symbolic metaphor, idioms and expressions, that to deny that part of God's Word would be omitting a good amount of God's Holy Writ. Allegory, metaphor, parable, etc. are all... part of language grammar too, and every language has its own uses for it. The Bible languages are no different. So you cannot claim grammar as a crutch with leaving out these things which are also part of grammar too.

Obvioulsy God did not give everyone to understand His allegories and parables in His Word. But for His Church He did, and we especially are to understand those things, and then contrast them against direct type language in His Holy Writ. Because of this many often mistake direct literal meanings vs. allegorical meaning in God's Holy Writ. Many get the two backwards, to their own destruction, some even slapping secularist ideas of poetry onto It. This is how God protects His Word from the profane, for the profane cannot... tell the difference in those things.
 

dragonfly

Well-Known Member
Apr 19, 2012
1,882
141
63
UK
Hi veteran,

I've been short of time to focus for a sustained period, on replying, but I have not forgotten. I like your last post.


Hi Retrobyter,

I take this point:

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

The difficulty I and some others have with the word 'flesh' in this context, is that it is also used to describe the part of man which needs to die to sin, self, pride and rebellion to God as Father - the One who sacrificed His Son to redeem us from the kingdom of darkness.

Too many Christians skip over Romans 6, and don't deal properly (through embracing the cross) with the fleshly elements of their lives - the very elements which if they save to gain this world, will cause them to lose their souls in the end.

As some of us know, Paul explains this in some detail in 1 Corinthians 15. The key message there, is about the seed falling into the ground and dying, before it can be raised in a new 'body'.

Blessings.




Hi Purity,

I need to reply to veteran properly, before I address your latest posts to me. Might be quite a while, all told.
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
1,783
45
48
66
Tampa Bay, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shalom, veteran.

veteran said:
So then, Christ Jesus was wrong with teaching 'parables' to the multitudes?

There's so many examples in God's Word of allegory, proverb, parable, symbolic metaphor, idioms and expressions, that to deny that part of God's Word would be omitting a good amount of God's Holy Writ. Allegory, metaphor, parable, etc. are all... part of language grammar too, and every language has its own uses for it. The Bible languages are no different. So you cannot claim grammar as a crutch with leaving out these things which are also part of grammar too.

Obviously God did not give everyone to understand His allegories and parables in His Word. But for His Church He did, and we especially are to understand those things, and then contrast them against direct type language in His Holy Writ. Because of this many often mistake direct literal meanings vs. allegorical meaning in God's Holy Writ. Many get the two backwards, to their own destruction, some even slapping secularist ideas of poetry onto It. This is how God protects His Word from the profane, for the profane cannot... tell the difference in those things.
No, not at all! Figurative speech is used all the time, even in normal literature, but it ALWAYS takes a backseat to the things which it symbolizes! There are many examples of metaphors and similes and teachable stories and fables even in today's literature, but they always have a purpose: to draw analogy with other more real, tangible, or pertinent things in life, breaking down the difficult-to-understand into terms that others might understand EASIER!

It's like in mathematics: Say there were 86,400 pieces to a puzzle and one wanted to know how much of the puzzle was left to do. He has already placed 45,226 of those pieces together. How might he be able to visualize how much of the puzzle is left to do? Well, he could make the analogy that the total number of puzzle pieces are like the total number of seconds in a day. By using this simple analogy, he can set up a ratio to discover that, out of the number of seconds in a day adding up to 24 hours, he has 11 hours, 26 minutes, and 14 seconds to go!

Yeshua` was not trying to hold back the truth to those who were interested and curious, those who had a hunger to see Yeshua` made King. But, for many in Isra'el, Yeshua`s presence was more like the Olympic games of Greece or the Gladiator games of Rome, just something interesting to entertain them! Yeshua` was not there to entertain; He was presenting Himself as their King Apparent! So, for those dullards who had no ambition to learn the truth about Him, He took no specific interest. HOWEVER, He did not leave them out! By hearing the parables He taught, they were designed to peak any little spark of interest that might be in them and drive them to understand more of His truth!

Let's use a little analogy here to explain: Just as students in high school will have certain subjects that they like because they can excel in those subjects and other subjects that they hate because those subjects are mysteries to them, so a person can like or hate the message of Yeshua` as the King Apparent (Messiah) of Isra'el. And yet, students who allow the mysteries to drive them, like a "splinter in one's mind," may one day discover the reason for a particular subject and how it applies to daily living. Then, like a late bloomer in a flower garden, he will spring to action and suddenly enjoy a subject that once he hated! In the same way, that "splinter in one's mind" may drive that individual to the point where one day he or she will CHANGE HIS OR HER MIND about the Messiah! The "seed has been planted!"

Most people are sheep, blindly following whoever comes along to lead them, but people can change! A few are "born leaders," but most leaders are DEVELOPED over time! People who have a spark of curiosity aren't just always good or always bad. They are not just always believers or always unbelievers; people are constantly in a state of flux, ever changing their minds and developing new thoughts or opinions on issues and "facts" they once held dear. Hopefully, they can be guided into a positive change, but without guidance, they have a 50-50 chance of getting worse, rather than better. Worse yet, there are teachers out there who are willing (or deluded) to guide them into getting worse! The "blind leading the blind" until "both fall in a ditch!"

However, it is this SPARK of interest, this POTENTIAL they have to change, and the CHANCE they have of finding a guide who is worthy that will enable them to change their minds for the better. Having been exposed to Yeshua`s teachings, these Isra'elites had the opportunity to change their minds about Him, both before His crucifixion and after His passion! So, Yeshua`s parables were not wasted on them; some of them became believers on the day of Pentecost or afterward. The groups of believers and unbelievers were NOT decisively and irrevocably separated prior to Yeshua`s death! The Messianic community (the "church") GREW! We (once we are already INSIDE the Messianic communities) understand that this is the working of the Ruach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God), but those OUTSIDE only see the potential for change and the end results of that change.

The bottom line is this: Yeshua` DID use parables and the Bible DOES have many parables, metaphors, similes, analogies, and other forms of figurative speech, but NOT as much as some CLAIM it has! Furthermore, those analogies are NOT there for their own sake! They are there to GUIDE us into a better understanding of the things which they REPRESENT! Not everything in the Bible is "spiritual!" Often, the historical accounts must be developed FIRST BEFORE they can be used as "our ensamples!"

Qayin (Cain), for instance, was not ALWAYS a murderer! There was a time in his history before he murdered his brother Hevel (Abel). Growing up in his household, he was once the older brother, looking out for his younger brother and sisters. We know this because he understood the concept of a "brother's KEEPER," a babysitter!

Then, one day, he presented his sacrifice of produce, but his sacrifice was rejected by God in favor of his younger brother's sacrifice, and he couldn't let it go, even after he was warned by God! (Where was his earthly leader - his guide? Where was his father, Adam, during all this? Why didn't he get his help? Why couldn't he feel that he go to him for help?) Qayin allowed the envy and bitterness he felt to well up within him until that fateful day when he rose up and slew his brother! It was not until THEN that his name became a by-word! It was not until THEN that his name became a metaphor for "murderer" to us!

However, there are some teachers who can't end the story there and present the life's lesson alone. They are teachers with "itching ears" always ready to learn some "new thing" about this passage until it grows to monstrous, unmanageable sizes in the figurative things they try to "draw from" (actually, "FORCE INTO") the passage! When you've drawn the last drop of orange juice from the orange, STOP TRYING TO EXTRACT MORE!


2 Timothy 4:1-4
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables (Greek: muthous coming from muthos).
KJV

NT:3454 muthos (moo'-thos); perhaps from the same as NT:3453 (through the idea of tuition); a tale, i.e. fiction ("myth"):
KJV - fable.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Don't be like the Athenians!


Acts 17:18-22
18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
KJV

There's a LIMIT to how much analogy one should glean from the Scriptures! And, one should GLEAN from the Scriptures, not harvest the whole field, the dirt, the rocks, and the bedrock, too!

Shalom, dragonfly.

dragonfly said:
...
Hi Retrobyter,

I take this point:

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

The difficulty I and some others have with the word 'flesh' in this context, is that it is also used to describe the part of man which needs to die to sin, self, pride and rebellion to God as Father - the One who sacrificed His Son to redeem us from the kingdom of darkness.

Too many Christians skip over Romans 6, and don't deal properly (through embracing the cross) with the fleshly elements of their lives - the very elements which if they save to gain this world, will cause them to lose their souls in the end.

As some of us know, Paul explains this in some detail in 1 Corinthians 15. The key message there, is about the seed falling into the ground and dying, before it can be raised in a new 'body'.

Blessings.
...
Sure, I understand that, but what IS "flesh?" Well, literally and specifically, it is the "meat" of the body, the muscle that is formed from the proteins and minerals of the body - the muscle-fiber cells of the body, whether human or animal. This is the flesh to which Yeshua` was referring in the verse you quoted. The terms "flesh and bones" together refer collectively to the whole body of organs which work together to form our substance, how we interact with the physical earth God has given to us.

This is NOT the "flesh" to which passages like Romans 6 are referring! Those passages are talking about the propensity for sin that we have in our bodies!


Romans 6:3-14
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
KJV

However, don't make the mistake of "throwing the baby out with the bath water!" Just because the Scriptures say we should avoid/get rid of the SIN in our mortal bodies does NOT mean that we must get rid of the bodies, as well! To the contrary, we are told that these mortal bodies will put on IMMORTALITY, that these corruptible bodies will put on INCORRUPTION! Yet, they will be like our Master's body of "flesh and bones!"

And, you are right about the analogy in 1 Corinthians 15. The seed, a physical seed of - say - a corn plant, a kernel of corn, will fall into the ground and decay. Then, out of the decay, the germ of the corn seed will sprout and grow into a young corn plant. Although the corn plant doesn't look anything like the kernel of corn that was planted, it nevertheless has the SAME GENETIC STRUCTURE! Only the FORM has changed! Furthermore, the seed is physical and the corn plant that grows from the seed is physical! It doesn't change into something else, not even a different STATE of matter, otherwise, Paul may have used a different analogy!

Don't get hung up by the terminology, either. The word "spiritual" in 1 Corinthians 15 is NOT the same as how many use the word "spiritual" today! The key to understanding 1 Corinthians 15 is in the COMPARISONS that Paul makes within the chapter! The word "spiritual" (Greek: pneumatikos) is contrasted with the word "natural" (Greek: psuchikos). The Greek word "pneumatikos" comes from "pneuma," usually translated "spirit," but the word "psuchikos" comes from "psuchee," usually translated as "SOUL!" So, how does one rectify THAT fact in terms of how "soul" and "spirit" are interpreted today? If one is truthful, he or she will admit it CAN'T be rectified in today's understanding of "soul" and "spirit!" How can the word "natural" or "soul-ish" be applied to a "body?" And yet, the phrase "sooma psuchikon" (using "oo" for omega and "o" for omicron) is used in verse 44! But, however it applies, is how the word "spiritual" is applied to a body, for the same verse also uses the phrase "sooma pneumatikon!" I've not seen a version yet that adequately translates this chapter!

If, however, we recognize that a "soul" is merely the combination of a body with its breath and that the "spirit" is the breath, then it all begins to make sense. It also matches what was said in verse 45, for the first man Adam WAS made a living "one-who-breathes" or a living "air-breather!" This equates terms between Greek and Hebrew because we can compare this Greek verse to its Hebrew counterpart, Genesis 2:7. Thus, "psuchee" is equated to the Hebrew "nefesh," and "pneuma" is equated to the Hebrew "ruach." And, in that is the key: a "soul-ish body" is the natural body that is an "air-breather." Then, by way of contrast, the "spirit-ish body" is the supernatural body that is an "air-BLASTER" like the "WIND" or a "FORCEFUL BREATH," for "ruach" is also used for the "wind!"

I also should add that this is why the two bodies are contrasted in so many ways. The "air-breathing" body breathes air, is mortal - it can die, is corruptible - it can decay, is weak, and is undignified. The "air-BLASTING" body gives life, is immortal - it cannot die, is incorruptible - it cannot decay, is POWERFUL, and is GLORIOUS! And, THAT is the body that is likewise promised to us in the Resurrection, not off in some unknown "Heaven" somewhere, but RIGHT HERE ON THIS EARTH when our Lord returns!


1 Corinthians 15:51-54
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
KJV
 

Purity

New Member
May 20, 2013
1,064
15
0
Melbourne
At that time Jerusalem shall be called the throne of the LORD, and all nations shall gather to it, to the presence of the LORD in Jerusalem, and they shall no more stubbornly follow their own evil heart. (Jer 3:17)

Which time?
When have Nations gathered to Jerusalem?
When has Israel not been stubborn?

It's questions like these so few Christians refuse to answer for the following reasons:

1. It may not fit their viewpoint
2. It would require changing their beliefs
3. It is a prophecy God has long forgotten so it's not longer applicable

Very few will honestly address the verse, passage or book in a manner becoming a servant of God.

In recent posts we read of men pontificating upon their own wisdom but ask them to speak to the Prophets and they close up like clam shells.

Time will tell.

Purity
 

In Christ

New Member
May 19, 2013
50
0
0
Have you looked at Isaiah 61:1? Can you see anything about blindness being addressed in those days?
Hello Dragonfly

Not in Isaiah 61:1 for this verse speaks of the Ministry of Messiah at His first coming. However, in Isaiah 42:19, here, in this context, “servant” is National Israel (detailed in verses 17-22).

Although everything relates in Scripture, I don't see Isaiah 42:19 is in relation to Romans 11:25 because I believe the “blindness in part” is attributed to the unbelief of National Israel that is, as a whole nation, they will not turn to Christ (as Nineveh did, Mt. 12:41). Only a remnant chosen by grace (true believers are saved one by one) will believe in Christ, the same is true with the rest of every nations in the world.
 

Arnie Manitoba

Well-Known Member
Mar 8, 2011
2,650
137
63
72
Manitoba Canada
Purity said:
At that time Jerusalem shall be called the throne of the LORD, and all nations shall gather to it, to the presence of the LORD in Jerusalem, and they shall no more stubbornly follow their own evil heart. (Jer 3:17)

Which time?
When have Nations gathered to Jerusalem?
When has Israel not been stubborn?

It's questions like these so few Christians refuse to answer for the following reasons:

1. It may not fit their viewpoint
2. It would require changing their beliefs
3. It is a prophecy God has long forgotten so it's not longer applicable

Very few will honestly address the verse, passage or book in a manner becoming a servant of God.

In recent posts we read of men pontificating upon their own wisdom but ask them to speak to the Prophets and they close up like clam shells.

Time will tell.

Purity
You make some good points purity.

It is extremely hard for the Christian to realize they are not the center of the universe.

At least it was for me.
 

Purity

New Member
May 20, 2013
1,064
15
0
Melbourne
You make some good points purity.

It is extremely hard for the Christian to realize they are not the center of the universe.

At least it was for me.
Sadly the Scriptures have fallen into comparative disuse among many Christians today. They are superseded by shallow speculations and fantasies, believing the Gospel is located on youtube or in christian bookstores, its the contradictory thinking of the flesh, trained to excogitate the liberalist believers who speak to their own doctrine. The gospel is neither believed nor preached in the churches today. In fact, it is hid from their eyes; and the time is come to break off the wild olive branch for its saplessness; to cut off these churches for their unbelief (Rom 11:20; Rom 11:22; Rom 11:25).

The time of the Gentiles is drawing to a close and the time of grafting back the natural branch will begin.

Purity
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
1,783
45
48
66
Tampa Bay, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shalom, Purity.

Purity said:
At that time Jerusalem shall be called the throne of the LORD, and all nations shall gather to it, to the presence of the LORD in Jerusalem, and they shall no more stubbornly follow their own evil heart. (Jer 3:17)

Which time?
When have Nations gathered to Jerusalem?
When has Israel not been stubborn?

It's questions like these so few Christians refuse to answer for the following reasons:

1. It may not fit their viewpoint
2. It would require changing their beliefs
3. It is a prophecy God has long forgotten so it's not longer applicable

Very few will honestly address the verse, passage or book in a manner becoming a servant of God.

In recent posts we read of men pontificating upon their own wisdom but ask them to speak to the Prophets and they close up like clam shells.

Time will tell.

Purity
The prophecy of Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) is a tough one to follow because much of it was fulfilled in the deportation to Bavel (Babylon) when N'vukhadnetsar (Nebuchadnezzar) was king. This book and its companion book Lamentations are NOT happy books! To the contrary, they are FILLED with sadness, pain, regret, and lamenting.

HOWEVER, God HAS provided certain promises that encourage the reader regarding the future. Jeremiah 3:17 is just one such example. God has NOT given up on Isra'el! So, in answer to your first three questions:

"Which time?" A time still in our future, because it hasn't happened, yet.
"When have Nations gathered to Jerusalem?" Exactly. Therefore, we can be sure that it hasn't happened, yet.
"When has Israel not been stubborn?" Again, that is only proof that this is a prophecy concerning a time that is yet future to us.

There IS a viewpoint that has great handshaking compatibility between the Tanakh (the OT) and the B'rit Chadashah (the New Covenant or the NT). It's simply to believe that it is all about Isra'el and FAMILY. Any mentions of Goyim (Gentiles) in the Scriptures are PERIPHERAL!

When I was learning about computers back in the 70s, it blew my mind to think of the things with which we usually interact - the computer screen and the keyboard, for instance - as PERIPHERALS! Since that is our main interaction with a computer, it is hard to realize that its primary function is computation, and communicating with humans is only peripheral! Once the computer proper, the CPU - the Central Processing Unit - today, usually the microprocessor within the computer, laptop, tablet, or smart phone, the brain of the device, receives its instructions and its data, it performs its calculations very well and very quickly, but it doesn't matter how it got its instructions and data, nor does it matter where the results of the calculations go afterward. As far as the device is concerned, its primary function is to make the computations and sit idly until it receives another command. Thus, although the keyboard or keypad or pointing device is important to us and the visual output that we see on the device's screen is also important to us, they have little to do with the actual CPU's function! That is why monitors, keyboards, mice, touch screens, keypads, and the like are all called "peripherals."

The Bible is the same way:

Genesis through Deuteronomy is called the "Torah" and was given to Isra'el by God through Moshe (Moses).
The historical books, wisdom, and music of the Bible - the Ketuviym or the Writings - was also written by Isra'elites for Isra'elites.
The prophecies, too, were given to Isra'el (including Y'hudah or Judah) by God through those navi'iym (prophets), who were also Isra'elites and who lend their names to those prophecies.
The Gospels were books written by various Isra'elites to Isra'el about their Messiah Yeshua`.
All of the apostles ("sent-ones") were Isra'elites, including Paul. "Paul," btw, is his SURNAME but his given name was/is "Sha'uwl" ("Saul"). He received that surname for his contribution to his benefactor's well-being, that of Sergius Paulus, mentioned in Acts 13:6-12. The bestowment of a family name on a worthy individual was common among the Romans as a sign of honor and prestige. It was from the moment that he helped this Roman proconsul in the town of Paphos on the isle of Kuprus (Cyprus).
All of their letters were written to congregations in various towns from northern Isra'el into Asia Minor and Greece and even at Rome. All of those congregations consisted primarily of Isra'elites. Even if their congregation had a large contingency of Goyim, they were outnumbered by the Isra'elites who were part of the Elect (the Chosen) and believers in Yeshua` as the Messiah. They were part of that group known simply as "the Way" (before the word "Christian" was adopted).
The prophecies in the B'rit Chadashah were also written by Isra'elites to Isra'elites.

All of that was pretty hard to get around until the 200s A.D. came and anti-Semitism became the fad in the "Church!" So successful were they during this time at squelching the Isra'elite roots of their faith, that it is very hard today to get an American Christian even to acknowledge that there ARE Isra'eli roots to Christianity!

When one can acknowledge this origin and EMBRACE it, one can begin to see how that the inclusion of the Goyim (the Gentiles, the non-Isra'elites) is purely peripheral made possible by the TEMPORARY shelving of the Isra'elites who rejected their Messiah. Since the Messiah declared them "desolate" until they could say "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH," (translated as "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD" but meaning "Welcome, Comer on [the] authority of YHWH") and say it "from the house of YHWH" or "from the Temple," it's been impossible for them to end the desolation. However, recent developments, such as 14 May 1948 and 7 June 1967 and the thousands of Jews who are coming to the LORD through the Messianic Movement and the Jews for Jesus ministries, have rekindled the hopes that all of Isra'el will finally be able to complete this prophecy, and the Messiah will be able finally to return!

I do have two questions for you, however: (1) To which "Prophets" do you refer when you said, "... ask them to speak to the Prophets and they close up like clam shells"? (2) How are you expecting one to perform this activity?
 

Purity

New Member
May 20, 2013
1,064
15
0
Melbourne
Shalom, Purity.
Shalom

The prophecy of Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) is a tough one to follow because much of it was fulfilled in the deportation to Bavel (Babylon) when N'vukhadnetsar (Nebuchadnezzar) was king. This book and its companion book Lamentations are NOT happy books! To the contrary, they are FILLED with sadness, pain, regret, and lamenting.
The prophecies are pertinent to the age which God's people find themselves today. Jeremiah warns of the impending military force of Babylon that would destroy Jerusalem and enslave the Jews. They are still enslaved today. The prophecy urges Jerusalem to turn from its wicked ways, but there is no response! He further warns of the false prophets who are leading the people astray with deceptive doctrines and falsehoods. Again, this is their current religious state where rabbi's continue to have no knowledge on their lips and the people seek a Messiah of their own making, who is no messiah at all. Whereas, here Jeremiah urges the Israelites to submit to the Babylonian authority as the instrument of God's judgment, we find in AD70, though many prophecies predicted this event, the people were not openly warned of their coming judgement and scattering among the nations. Jeremiah, like Christ gave the warnings, although they did not heed their warnings so the people were carried away to Babylon/Nations.

So, the prediction of Israelite captives returning after 70 years to rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple was fulfilled (partially), many remained in Egypt (world) and did not all returned to the land.

So it is that Yahweh still to this day has a controversy with the Nations in their treatment of His People Israel.

For instance these prophecies here:

Against Egypt: Jer 46:1-28
Against Philistia: Jer 47:1-7
Against Moab: Jer 48:1-47
Against Ammon: Jer 49:1-6
Against Edom: Jer 49:7-22
Against Damascus: Jer 49:23-27
Against Arabia: Jer 49:28-33
Against Elam: Jer 49:34-39
Against Babylon: Jer 50:1-46; Jer 51:1-64

Speak to a time when God will once again make Israel a praise in the earth, not for their sake but His names sake. Only the prophetical eye can see these events fulfilled in their totality...when finally ecclesiastical Babylon will be destroyed and all those who make war with the saints will be consumed.

Note: You can see from your post how you speak at these matters from a distance? You are not able to enter them because your understanding is darkened by gentile teaching. I say this not to offend! But to show you how difficult it is for people to put to one side what they think they know for what has been written.

HOWEVER, God HAS provided certain promises that encourage the reader regarding the future. Jeremiah 3:17 is just one such example. God has NOT given up on Isra'el! So, in answer to your first three questions:

"Which time?" A time still in our future, because it hasn't happened, yet.
"When have Nations gathered to Jerusalem?" Exactly. Therefore, we can be sure that it hasn't happened, yet.
"When has Israel not been stubborn?" Again, that is only proof that this is a prophecy concerning a time that is yet future to us.
These are sound answers - well done!

Many Christians cannot bring themselves to answer as you have - but how will they be fulfilled? And what Scripture defines these prophecies in greater detail for us?

There IS a viewpoint that has great handshaking compatibility between the Tanakh (the OT) and the B'rit Chadashah (the New Covenant or the NT). It's simply to believe that it is all about Isra'el and FAMILY. Any mentions of Goyim (Gentiles) in the Scriptures are PERIPHERAL!

When I was learning about computers back in the 70s, it blew my mind to think of the things with which we usually interact - the computer screen and the keyboard, for instance - as PERIPHERALS! Since that is our main interaction with a computer, it is hard to realize that its primary function is computation, and communicating with humans is only peripheral! Once the computer proper, the CPU - the Central Processing Unit - today, usually the microprocessor within the computer, laptop, tablet, or smart phone, the brain of the device, receives its instructions and its data, it performs its calculations very well and very quickly, but it doesn't matter how it got its instructions and data, nor does it matter where the results of the calculations go afterward. As far as the device is concerned, its primary function is to make the computations and sit idly until it receives another command. Thus, although the keyboard or keypad or pointing device is important to us and the visual output that we see on the device's screen is also important to us, they have little to do with the actual CPU's function! That is why monitors, keyboards, mice, touch screens, keypads, and the like are all called "peripherals."

The Bible is the same way:

Genesis through Deuteronomy is called the "Torah" and was given to Isra'el by God through Moshe (Moses).
The historical books, wisdom, and music of the Bible - the Ketuviym or the Writings - was also written by Isra'elites for Isra'elites.
The prophecies, too, were given to Isra'el (including Y'hudah or Judah) by God through those navi'iym (prophets), who were also Isra'elites and who lend their names to those prophecies.

The Gospels were books written by various Isra'elites to Isra'el about their Messiah Yeshua`.
All of the apostles ("sent-ones") were Isra'elites, including Paul. "Paul," btw, is his SURNAME but his given name was/is "Sha'uwl" ("Saul"). He received that surname for his contribution to his benefactor's well-being, that of Sergius Paulus, mentioned in Acts 13:6-12. The bestowment of a family name on a worthy individual was common among the Romans as a sign of honor and prestige. It was from the moment that he helped this Roman proconsul in the town of Paphos on the isle of Kuprus (Cyprus).
All of their letters were written to congregations in various towns from northern Isra'el into Asia Minor and Greece and even at Rome. All of those congregations consisted primarily of Isra'elites. Even if their congregation had a large contingency of Goyim, they were outnumbered by the Isra'elites who were part of the Elect (the Chosen) and believers in Yeshua` as the Messiah. They were part of that group known simply as "the Way" (before the word "Christian" was adopted).
The prophecies in the B'rit Chadashah were also written by Isra'elites to Isra'elites.

All of that was pretty hard to get around until the 200s A.D. came and anti-Semitism became the fad in the "Church!" So successful were they during this time at squelching the Isra'elite roots of their faith, that it is very hard today to get an American Christian even to acknowledge that there ARE Isra'eli roots to Christianity!

When one can acknowledge this origin and EMBRACE it, one can begin to see how that the inclusion of the Goyim (the Gentiles, the non-Isra'elites) is purely peripheral made possible by the TEMPORARY shelving of the Isra'elites who rejected their Messiah. Since the Messiah declared them "desolate" until they could say "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH," (translated as "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD" but meaning "Welcome, Comer on [the] authority of YHWH") and say it "from the house of YHWH" or "from the Temple," it's been impossible for them to end the desolation. However, recent developments, such as 14 May 1948 and 7 June 1967 and the thousands of Jews who are coming to the LORD through the Messianic Movement and the Jews for Jesus ministries, have rekindled the hopes that all of Isra'el will finally be able to complete this prophecy, and the Messiah will be able finally to return!
Amen to the Bold.

However, we still need to piece together these future events.

- How will this time in our future come about? What does it look like in detail?

- How will the Nations come to Jerusalem and for what purpose is the journey made?

- What events will remove the stubbornness from Israel once and for all?

Only delving deeper into these texts can we find the answers - vain philosophy will not suffice.

A critical part of the Jeremiah 3 & 4 prophecy is Jesus Christ ruling in their midst. Jer 3:16

However, we know events will occur before this happens and after...what are they and how do they speak to Rom 11:25? In fact the whole chapter.

Purity
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
1,783
45
48
66
Tampa Bay, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shalom, Purity.

Purity said:
Shalom


The prophecies are pertinent to the age which God's people find themselves today. Jeremiah warns of the impending military force of Babylon that would destroy Jerusalem and enslave the Jews. They are still enslaved today. The prophecy urges Jerusalem to turn from its wicked ways, but there is no response! He further warns of the false prophets who are leading the people astray with deceptive doctrines and falsehoods. Again, this is their current religious state where rabbi's continue to have no knowledge on their lips and the people seek a Messiah of their own making, who is no messiah at all. Whereas, here Jeremiah urges the Israelites to submit to the Babylonian authority as the instrument of God's judgment, we find in AD70, though many prophecies predicted this event, the people were not openly warned of their coming judgement and scattering among the nations. Jeremiah, like Christ gave the warnings, although they did not heed their warnings so the people were carried away to Babylon/Nations.

So, the prediction of Israelite captives returning after 70 years to rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple was fulfilled (partially), many remained in Egypt (world) and did not all returned to the land.

So it is that Yahweh still to this day has a controversy with the Nations in their treatment of His People Israel.

For instance these prophecies here:

Against Egypt: Jer 46:1-28
Against Philistia: Jer 47:1-7
Against Moab: Jer 48:1-47
Against Ammon: Jer 49:1-6
Against Edom: Jer 49:7-22
Against Damascus: Jer 49:23-27
Against Arabia: Jer 49:28-33
Against Elam: Jer 49:34-39
Against Babylon: Jer 50:1-46; Jer 51:1-64

Speak to a time when God will once again make Israel a praise in the earth, not for their sake but His names sake. Only the prophetical eye can see these events fulfilled in their totality...when finally ecclesiastical Babylon will be destroyed and all those who make war with the saints will be consumed.

Note: You can see from your post how you speak at these matters from a distance? You are not able to enter them because your understanding is darkened by gentile teaching. I say this not to offend! But to show you how difficult it is for people to put to one side what they think they know for what has been written.


These are sound answers - well done!

Many Christians cannot bring themselves to answer as you have - but how will they be fulfilled? And what Scripture defines these prophecies in greater detail for us?


Amen to the Bold.

However, we still need to piece together these future events.

- How will this time in our future come about? What does it look like in detail?

- How will the Nations come to Jerusalem and for what purpose is the journey made?

- What events will remove the stubbornness from Israel once and for all?

Only delving deeper into these texts can we find the answers - vain philosophy will not suffice.

A critical part of the Jeremiah 3 & 4 prophecy is Jesus Christ ruling in their midst. Jer 3:16

However, we know events will occur before this happens and after...what are they and how do they speak to Rom 11:25? In fact the whole chapter.

Purity
Initially, before the Messiah arrives, the Goyim (Gentiles) will be attempting to take possession of the Land, particularly Yerushalayim (Jerusalem). I have a suspicion that they will be primarily Islamic countries attempting to drive Isra'el out of the Land, driving them out of Yerushalayim and into the sea, as so many of them have threatened.

In another thread, there's been talk about the 200,000,000-man army that comes against them across the dried up river bed of the Euphrates. The claim has been that this could be China, but I think this is actually a union of Islamic countries that band together for a common purpose. It may be reactionary to the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple, whether the Dome of the Rock is removed or not, but there are many Islamic nations east of Isra'el from Turkey and Jordan to Indonesia, including Saudi Arabia, Iraq, the Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Iran, Pakistan, portions of India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, and portions of China, and that's not counting Egypt, Syria, the Sudan, portions of Ethiopia, and all across the northern edge of Africa, and we can't forget the Arab contingency right in their back yard, the Palestinians. A good place to start is Wikipedia's page under the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country. At a total population of 1,005,507,000 across South and Southeast Asia, a 200,000,000-man army is certainly possible.

So, I totally agree with you about God having a controversy with all those countries

After the Messiah arrives and establishes His Kingdom, the Gentiles will flow to Isra'el for many reasons, but primarily to worship God and to see the King and get His advice, or because they have been commanded to come, or because they have heard that "the hands of the King are the hands of a healer." I believe that it will be during this time that the following prophecy is fulfilled:


Zechariah 8:20-23
20 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:
21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also.
22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.
23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
KJV

By the way, I find it ironic that the "Palestinians" who are located now within the Gaza Strip are located RIGHT WHERE PHILISTIA WAS! Furthermore, the name "Palestine" is a Romanized form of "P'lishtiym," which is the Hebrew name for "Philistines." Coincidence? I don't think so.