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The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Rex, Apr 3, 2013.

  1. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    Like I said; the king who is now with you will not be returning from the battle! :lol:
    You do understand that Jezreel is the valley of Megiddo right? Remember that ancient river Kishon?

    O my soul! Thou hast trodden down the pride of `Az ~


    Hear, O ye kings; give ear, O ye princes; I, even I, will sing unto YHWH; I will sing praise to YHWH Elohey of Yisrael. O YHWH, when thou wentest out of Seir, when thou marchedst out of the field of Edom, the earth trembled, and the heavens dropped, the clouds also dropped water. The mountains melted from before YHWH, that Sinai from before YHWH Elohey of Yisrael. In the days of Shamgar the son of Anath, in the days of Jael, the highways were deserted, and the travellers walked through byways. The inhabitants of the villages ceased, they ceased in Yisrael, until that I Deborah arose, that I arose a mother in Yisrael. They chose new gods; and then was war in the gates: was there a shield or spear seen among forty thousand in Yisrael? My heart is toward the governors of Yisrael, that offered themselves willingly among the people. Baruch haYHWH. Speak, ye that ride on white donkeys, ye that sit in judgment, and walk by the way. They that are delivered from the noise of archers in the places of drawing water, there shall they rehearse the righteous acts of YHWH, even the righteous acts toward the inhabitants of his villages in Yisrael: then shall the people of YHWH go down to the gates. Awake, awake, Deborah: awake, awake, utter a song: arise, Barak, and lead thy captivity captive, thou son of Abinoam. Then he made him that remaineth have dominion over the nobles among the people: YHWH made me have dominion over the gibborim-mighty ones. Out of Ephraim came down they whose root in Amalek; after thee, Benjamin, among thy people; out of Machir came down governors, and out of Zebulun they that handle the pen of the writer. And the princes of Issachar were with Deborah; even Issachar, and also Barak: he was sent on foot into the valley. For the divisions of Reuben there were great thoughts of heart. Why abodest thou among the sheepfolds, to hear the bleatings of the flocks? For the divisions of Reuben there were great searchings of heart. Gilead abode beyond Jordan: and why did Dan remain in ships? Asher continued on the sea shore, and abode in his breaches. Zebulun and Naphtali were a people that jeoparded their lives unto the death in the high places of the field.

    And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Messiah: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

    The kings came and fought, then fought the kings of Canaan in Taanach by the waters of Megiddo; they took no gain of money. They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera. The river of Kishon swept them away, that ancient river, the river Kishon. O my soul, thou hast trodden down `Oz! Then were the horsehoofs broken by the means of the pransings, the pransings of their 'abiyray-mighty ones. Curse ye Meroz, said the Mal'ak of YHWH, curse ye bitterly the inhabitants thereof; because they came not to the help of YHWH, to the help of YHWH against the gibborim-mighty ones. Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent. He asked water, and she gave him milk; she brought forth butter in a lordly dish. She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen's hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples.


    Now Jehoshaphat had riches and honour in abundance, and joined affinity with Ahab. And after certain years he went down to Ahab to Samaria. And Ahab killed sheep and oxen for him in abundance, and for the people that he had with him, and persuaded him to go up with him to Ramoth Gilead. And Ahab king of Yisrael said unto Jehoshaphat king of Judah, Wilt thou go with me to Ramoth Gilead? And he answered him, I am as thou art, and my people as thy people; and we will be with thee in the war. And Jehoshaphat said unto the king of Yisrael, Inquire, I pray thee, at the Word of YHWH to day. Therefore the king of Yisrael gathered together of prophets four hundred men, and said unto them, Shall we go to Ramoth Gilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And they said, Go up; for haElohim will deliver it into the hand of the king! But Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet for haYHWH besides, that we might inquire of him? And the king of Yisrael said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, by whom we may inquire of YHWH: but I hate him; for he never prophesied good unto me, but always evil: the same is Micaiah the son of Imla. And Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so. And the king of Yisrael called for one of his officers, and said, Fetch quickly Micaiah the son of Imla.

    And the king of Yisrael and Jehoshaphat king of Judah sat either of them on his throne, clothed in their robes, and they sat in a void place at the entering in of the gate of Samaria; and all the prophets prophesied before them. And Zedekiah the son of Kna`nah had made him horns of iron, and said, Thus saith YHWH, With these thou shalt push Syria until they be consumed. And all the prophets prophesied so, saying, Go up to Ramoth Gilead, and prosper: for YHWH shall deliver it into the hand of the king. And the messenger that went to call Micaiah spake to him, saying, Behold, the words of the prophets declare good to the king with one assent; let thy word therefore, I pray thee, be like one of theirs, and speak thou good. And Micaiah said, As YHWH Liveth, even what my Elohey saith, that will I speak. And when he was come to the king, the king said unto him, Micaiah, shall we go to Ramoth Gilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And he said, Go ye up, and prosper, and they shall be delivered into your hand. And the king said to him, How many times shall I adjure thee that thou say nothing but the truth to me in the name of YHWH? Then he said, I did see all Yisrael scattered upon the mountains, as sheep that have no shepherd: and said YHWH, These have no master; let them return therefore every man to his house in peace. And the king of Yisrael said to Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would not prophesy good unto me, but evil? Again he said, Therefore hear the Word of YHWH; I have seen YHWH seated upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left. And saith YHWH, Who shall entice Ahab king of Yisrael, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth Gilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner. Then there came out a spirit, and stood before YHWH, and said, I will entice him. And said YHWH unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the said YHWH, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. Now therefore, behold, hath put YHWH a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and hath spoken haYHWH against thee ra`ah!

    Then Zedekiah son of Kna`nah came near, and smote Micaiah upon the cheek, and said, Which way went the Spirit of YHWH from me to speak unto thee? And says Micaiah unto Zedekiah son of Kna`nah of the double horned prophets of Baal:

    "Behold, thou shalt see in that day when thou shalt chamber in chamber to hide thyself!"

    Therefore, O Ahab, king of Yisrael, my bowels will sound out for thee as an harp for Moab in the day of distress!
    I will howl for Moab, mine heart shall mourn for the men of Kirheres; O vine of Sibmah, I shall weep for thee!

  2. Purity

    Purity New Member

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    Rex wrote:

    Lots of evidence has been provided but the evidence is not to your liking.

    The Divine Secret Concerning Israel's Restoration - Rom 11:25-32.

    Rex, Paul here explains to the Gentile believers the purpose of God in restoring Israel, and shows that it involves the conversion and education of the natural children of Abraham. Their former alienation from God provided the opportunity for salvation to be offered to Gentiles, but their ultimate restoration will bring glory to Israel and honour to their fathers.

    "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant"

    Gentile believers had to understand the future intentions of the Father. As the gospel comprises "the hope of Israel" (Acts 28:20), by which salvation is obtained (Rom 8:24), it is essential that Yahweh's intentions with natural Israel should be clearly acknowledged. Only thereby can the divine purpose be clearly seen.

    "Of this mystery"

    The gospel is not a mystery such as is beyond comprehension. The Greek word is musterion, more accurately: a secret; that which is known to the initiated. The wonderful principle of divine restoration can only be truly understood by those who honour the Abrahamic covenant, and appreciate the purpose of God with His people (see Rom 16:25). The gospel is a "secret" hidden from the natural mind of the flesh (1Co 2:7), but which is revealed by the implantation of the Spirit-Word in the heart and mind of those prepared to humble themselves before the divine wisdom (Eph 1:9).

    "Lest ye should be wise in your own conceits"

    The last phrase is en heautois, "in yourselves". Those who discount the divine purpose with Israel have a conceited view that God had elevated Gentiles above Jews. Paul had spoken of such a "highminded" attitude in verse 20. Because of that conceit many claim that God has no further purpose with natural Israel. Paul now answers that error, and explains that the divine rejection of Israel is temporary, and that ultimately redemption will come. Therefore to deny the purpose of God to restore Israel is to deny the essential principles of the saving knowledge of the gospel.

    "That blindness in part is happened to Israel"

    "Blindness" is from the Greek porosis, signifying hardness, stubbornness; covered with a callus, "metaphorical of a dulled spiritual perception" (Vine). The national blindness to the covenant of grace, however, is only "in part" (Rom 11:7). The Greek word for "in part" is meros, which indicates: a divisionor share. The NASB translates it: "a partial hardening"; the RSV has: "a hardening has come upon a part". The blindness is therefore not a complete nor permanent affliction but is limited to only one division of Jewry: those who refuse to accept the sonship of Jesus Christ, and who have remained stubbornly unresponsive to God's will. The "revealed secret" (the "mystery") is that such ignorance by Israel would remain until Christ comes to restore the nation to its former glory.


    An important word, limiting the time of Israel's alienation from God. The word occurs in five significant contexts introducing periods of restoration: · The restoration of the Davidic throne: Ezek 21:27. · The restoration of Jerusalem to Jewish control: Luk 21:24. · The restoration of the nation and theocracy to Israel: Acts 3:21. · The restoration of Israel's spiritual understanding: Rom 11:25-26. · The restoration of the house of worship for Israel: Luk 13:35.

    "The fulness of the Gentiles be come in"

    This is being accomplished during a period referred to as "the times of the Gentiles" (Luk 21:24), the long period in which the Gentiles have had dominion over Jewry in a political sense, and during which period the gospel has gone forth in Gentile lands (Act 13:46). Currently, God is taking out of the Gentiles "a people for His Name" (Acts 15:14; Eph 2:11-13), and when that purpose is completed, and "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in", there will follow "the fulness of Israel" which will see that nation become "the first dominion" throughout the earth (Mic 4:8). Paul refers to this latter manifestation of divine goodness in Rom 11:12.

    Now I wait for your explanation of Rom 11:25 :)

    Btw did you not the continuation of Pauls thought I the next verse?

    "And so"

    As a result of he completion of God's work amongst the Gentiles, He will turn to fulfil His determination concerning the restoration of Israel.
  3. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    Where have I ever denied Messiah Yeshua? Please quote the place where I have done so or the place where it might even sound as if I have done such a thing. You deny Messiah with everything you write because you write only concerning your own doctrines that are cherry picked and have nothing to do with what is written within their original contexts. How else can you come to the conclusion that you are a member of some imaginary third group or "house of the Gentiles" that appears nowhere in the Scripture? By your own theology you have therefore positioned yourself outside of the sheepfold, the great congregation which spans from Moses to the present; keeping youself an alien from the commonwealth of Israel, and a stranger from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.

    Your accusation is a lie straight from the lips of your lover Jezebel, O king, (speaking from the allegories). :lol:
  4. Purity

    Purity New Member

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    Daq, you are speaking with one who also believes a man can take up arms and kill his enemy. :unsure:
  5. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    If you refuse to recognize the allegories then how do you know whether or not you have been eating things sacrificed to idols?

    Revelation 2:18-23 KJV
    18. And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
    19. I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
    20. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
    21. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
    22. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
    23. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

    If Yeshua says it; I believe it, and it is not my sword, and neither my battle to be won or lost . . . :unsure:
    Behold, thou shalt see in that day when thou shalt chamber in chamber to hide thyself! :)
    dragonfly likes this.
  6. Purity

    Purity New Member

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    In the Fathers eyes neither is there two houses.

    Jer 3:18 - - - -> Jer 3:20,21,22,23,24,25

    One House of Israel remains in that day.

    The issue here daq is some deny they will be joined together others have written off Israel altogether and others say there is three houses.

    The Word reveals two who join and become one house. Luke 11:17
  7. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    Wow, and we are not even on the next page yet! :)

    Seems more to be your "issue" than mine. :)
  8. Purity

    Purity New Member

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    A true Christian understands the Israelitish nature of his hope and rejoices in the partial return of the Jews to Israel as an indication that the return of Jesus is not far off, and the resurrection and the setting up of the Kingdom also. Such believers who are baptized into the saving name of Jesus Christ are "Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise," and will in God’s mercy see the glorious things that are to be fulfilled in Israel. Dan 12:1-3 Luke 21:24-28 Rom 11:1 Rom 11:11-36 Gal 3:8-9 Gal 3:16 Gal 3:26-29 Eph 2:11-13


    daq wrote:

    Purity agrees....evidence should be found should it not?

    Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
    Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
    Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

    What happened to the House of Judah?
  9. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    "Know ye not, that so many of us as were immersed into Yeshua Christou were immersed into his death?"
    A man has to die to himself, relinquish the beloved daughters of his doctrines, and sacrifice his own proud goat. :)
  10. Purity

    Purity New Member

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    Correct but those doctrines which speak to the Israelitish hope must gain the prominence as the one in our midst is Israelite indeed ;)

    Heb 8:10

    I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY WILL BE MY PEOPLE: This is, of course, the foundation of the Abrahamic promises: Gen 17:7,8

    THEY WILL ALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST: God will give Israel special "teachers" Jer 23:3-4 Isa 30:14-21 ; Isa 54:13 thus they will be led into the "new covenant" -- along with the Gentile believers.

    This is the one hope, one faith and one baptism.
  11. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    United States
    Shalom, daq.

    Not everything written in the Bible is an allegory! That's your biggest error! You turn EVERYTHING into an allegory! The allegorical method of interpretation is NOT a good method of interpreting the Bible! The best method is the grammatical, historical method of interpretation because it gives the Scriptures the intended place by BOTH authors, the actual physical writer of the book and the Inspiration behind the writer!

    You treat the Scriptures as if the whole thing was written by an Invisible Hand, in which Scriptures He has hidden everything from the view of the reader unless the reader has put on the Magic Glasses of the Spirit! That's NOT the way God works!

    That's the kind of thinking that led to Joseph Smith and his story/claim that God's messenger gave him a special, golden book that only he could see and interpret with those special glasses he claimed he had also been given!

    The grammatical, historical method of interpretation, often erroneously called the "literal method," allows for allegory when it is telegraphed that way because that IS within the normal, grammatical structure of literature; however, literature does not always necessarily have the purpose for conveying allegory! The intent of the HUMAN AUTHOR must also be realized, and God moves in a person's mind, urging him to write in a particular way. God uses the individual as a conveyance to get His message down in ink, but He does not CONTROL the writer like one would control a robot! He allows the writer to have contribution! Thus, the book that the author is moved to write will have all the structure of a coherent piece of literature with an overall thesis, subject or subjects - a purpose for the writing, a target audience, themes, protagonists, antagonists (occasionally), an introduction, a body, and (in most cases) a conclusion! One should NEVER discount the human author's purpose for writing! What was the author attempting to convey? What was his purpose in writing? Where was he going with the book?

    Sometimes, a human author only means to convey the events of history as he saw them. Usually in such a case, his intent is merely to give his view of the events to explain how his society arrived at the current situation, from HIS point of reference - HIS "now." That is the case with B'reeshiyt - Genesis.

    When God gives a prophet a SPECIFIC message to convey to his listeners and it is written down, that is particularly a message from God's point of view and may extend several lifetimes as time, to God, is practically irrelevant, having already "declared the end from the beginning." Allegory to Him is CERTAINLY not enough! Often, He sent His prophets to the nation Yisra'el to INSTRUCT them and to WARN them, to provide CLARIFICATION and to give them ENCOURAGEMENT in the face of doom. He would often pull aside the veil of the unknown and reveal a small portion of the future!

    I won't deny that you exert considerable effort in your attempt to piece together the puzzle, but your efforts are one-dimensional and incomplete. You need to stretch yourself into seeing why the book of the Bible was written specifically by a particular, human author, as well! What was HE "driving at?" Where was HE going with his reason for writing? Why did God select HIM to write? What could HE contribute that no one else could do?

    Hang in there, bro', but there IS a human side to the Scriptures that is NOT evil. There must be SOMETHING that God loves about humans for Him to love humans! And, your efforts are not in vain in the LORD. You will be able to see things that others miss because of your background in studying allegory, but allegory alone is insufficient.
  12. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    Please do not attempt character assassination by equating my theology with Joseph Smith and Mormonism.

    It is not me but you that sees only according to the eyes and mind of the flesh while the Spirit you cannot see.

    The Father is Spirit and they that worship him must worship him in Spirit and in Truth. Likewise Yeshua says: "It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life." And again the Word states clearly: "the Testimony of Yeshua is the Spirit of prophecy!" So who then are you to decide for others how God works? Only by the Scripture can we know his ways and in the Spirit we do not eat with our mouths for the Testimony of Yeshua is that "Whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught. But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man." So likewise to you also, since you quoted from this conversation with someone else; how do you know that you also are not eating things sacrificed to idols? Do you even know what this truly means and how critically important it is according to the Scripture?

    Acts 15:20-29 KJV
    20. But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions [GSN#234 alisgema] of idols, [GSN#1497 eidolon] and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
    21. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
    22. Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
    23. And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
    24. Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
    25. It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
    26. Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    27. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
    28. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
    29. That ye abstain from
    meats offered to idols, [GSN#1494 eidolothuton] and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

    Original Strong's Ref. #234
    Romanized alisgema
    Pronounced al-is'-ghem-ah
    from alisgeo (to soil); (ceremonially) defilement:

    Original Strong's Ref. #1497
    Romanized eidolon
    Pronounced i'-do-lon
    from GSN1491; an image (i.e. for worship); by implication, a heathen god, or (plural) the worship of such:

    Original Strong's Ref. #1494
    Romanized eidolothuton
    Pronounced i-do-loth'-oo-ton
    neuter of a compound of GSN1497 and a presumed derivative of GSN2380; an image-sacrifice, i.e. part of an idolatrous offering:
    KJV--(meat, thing that is) offered (in sacrifice, sacrificed) to (unto) idols.

    It has nothing to do with physical meats Retrobyter. So how are you doing with abstaining from things having been sacrificed to idols? Are you even in compliance with the epistle of Acts 15? This has everything to do with Revelation 2:20 which I quoted, then you quoted, and likewise have responded with this post suggesting that it is not allegorical. In the Spirit we do not eat with our mouths but rather with our eyes and ears, (part of the ongoing discussion of the previous several pages). Whatsoever you allow into your ears and in front of your eyes goes into your heart.

    Matthew 6:19-20 KJV
    19. Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
    20. But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

    How is it that the greatest "treasure" for which you speak the most often, in these forum boards, appears to be a future physical earthly empire ruling the known physical world? How is it that your treasure is laid up in heaven when you say it is not even "heaven" but rather an "ouranos-sky kingdom"?

    Continuing the Matthew passage:

    Matthew 6:21-22 KJV
    21. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
    22. The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

    The luchnos-lamp of the body is the eye. This means that whatsoever you put in front of your eyes is like oil for your lamps, (eyes) and the oil then goes into your lamps and lightens the INSIDE of your body! If your eye be singularly focused upon the Word, (as interpreted through Messiah) then the whole inside of you will be full of light.

    Matthew 6:23-25 KJV
    23. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
    24. No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

    25. Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

    But if you have a "nomad wandering eye" that is always going astray towards the mammon of the world then your whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you be darkness, how great is that darkness! Therefore be careful what you allow into your ears and put before your eyes because it is spiritual food whether for the good or whether for the evil: and most of what is offered to believers of today is food having been sacrificed to the idols of the authors. Hal Lindsey, Tim Lahaye, Jack Van Impy, just to name a few, or anyone else who charges twenty to fifty Illuminati green-back eye of horus dollar bills for his or her paperback prophecy manuals, is engaged in selling you food sacrificed to his own idols of mammon:

    James 2:1-4 KJV
    1. My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
    2. For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
    3. And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
    4. Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

    1 Peter 5:1-3 KJV
    1. The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
    2. Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
    3. Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

    Revelation 2:12-14 KJV
    12. And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
    13. I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
    14. But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, [GSN#1494 eidolothuton] and to commit fornication.

    Think that these things have nothing to do with the overall conversation at hand?

    1 Corinthians 10:14-21 KJV
    14. Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
    15. I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
    16. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
    17. For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
    Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? [but we are of the Spirit]
    19. What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
    But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
    21. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

    This has not to do with what enters your mouth and goes to your belly but rather what enters your eyes, ears, and heart! :)
  13. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    That's what I though, zero NT evidence to support your understanding of Romans 11:25, or should I say contradict the NT teachings you ignore.

    Romans 9:6-9
    Gal 3:28
    Romans 2:28-29
    Matthew 3:9

    I suppose that whats happens when people take there own desire and force it on scriptures or the oracles of God, making themselves an oracle of a god.
  14. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    You're all mixed up on what God said through Hosea to the house of Israel about Jezreel.

    The other Hosea reference to the idea of Jezreel (for those interested that can read, daq isn't because he can't keep to the subject of the Scipture).

    Hosea 2:1-23
    1 Say ye unto your brethren, Ammi (My People); and to your sisters, Ruhamah (to have Mercy).
    2 Plead with your mother, plead: for she is not My wife, neither am I her husband: let her therefore put away her whoredoms out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts;
    3 Lest I strip her naked, and set her as in the day that she was born, and make her as a wilderness, and set her like a dry land, and slay her with thirst.

    4 And I will not have mercy upon her children; for they be the children of whoredoms.

    The names Ammi and Ruhamah God uses as metaphors here again, but in the positive instead of lo-ammi (not My people) and Loruhamah (not pitied) in the Hosea 1 chapter. He's talking to Jerusalem here about her children. In Ezek.16 God gives a parable about Jerusalem when she was a harlot city that belonged to the Canaanite Jebusites. That's the kind of conditoin He found her in, and threatens to return her back to it per that 3rd verse. The "children of whoredoms" idea is put for Israel's rebelliousness in turning to idol worship against Him. It's in the spiritual sense.

    5 For their mother hath played the harlot: she that conceived them hath done shamefully: for she said, I will go after my lovers, that give me my bread and my water, my wool and my flax, mine oil and my drink.

    This is still God speaking about the ten tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel. Their "mother" is put for Jerusalem here back when she was known as the city of Jebus, a pagan city of the Jebusites. That's when Jerusalem played the harlot too, before king David was given to conquer her. So our Heavenly Father is angry here at His people because of falling away from Him to play the spiritual harlot with idols that are nothing. At the phrase, "... for she said," God is starting to talk about the ten tribed kingdom of Israel again having gone into idol worship against Him, and how He told Hosea He was going to scatter them, ending the northern kingdom of Israel. The lovers she goes after is about idol worship, God still using the spiritual harlotry metaphor.

    6 Therefore, behold, I will hedge up thy way with thorns, and make a wall, that she shall not find her paths.

    That's about God scattering the ten tribes, hedging up their way as they scatter, so they could not return to the holy lands. Christ Jesus would become the ONLY 'Way' for their return in the future.

    7 And she shall follow after her lovers, but she shall not overtake them; and she shall seek them, but shall not find them: then shall she say, I will go and return to my first husband; for then was it better with me than now.

    The house of Israel (ten tribes) would follow after her idol lovers, but never get enough to be satisfied, continually seeking, and then say to herself that she will return to her first husband, because things were better before. Of course, God through His Son was their first Husband (Isa.54; 2 Cor.11).

    When they were scattered to Assyria and the land of the Medes, and around Cappadocia, the ten tribes got the fullness of their false Baal worship they had fallen into. When they began trekking into newer lands like Asia Minor and Europe, they brought that Baal worship with them. One can research the various forms of pagan worship the western nations were doing prior to The Gospel being sent to them. The origin of all those pagan systems was Baal, the ancient pagan system from Sumer-Babylon.

    8 For she did not know that I gave her corn, and wine, and oil, and multiplied her silver and gold, which they prepared for Baal.

    There it is. The generation of the ten tribed kingdom of Israel in that time forgot God, much of the reason from king Jeroboam's setting up of golden calf worship in the northern kingdom to keep the people in the land, trying to prevent their going down to Jerusalem to augment Judah's kingdom in the south (some left the northern kingdom anyway, and thus those like Anna from the northern tribe of Asher in Luke 2).

    9 Therefore will I return, and take away my corn in the time thereof, and My wine in the season thereof, and will recover My wool and My flax given to cover her nakedness.
    10 And now will I discover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers, and none shall deliver her out of Mine hand.

    At this point in time, God would take away His blessings upon them and instead scatter them out of the holy lands.

    11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

    Because of their spiritual whoredoms, God says here He would also take away from the house of Israel (ten tribes) her feast days, new moons, sabbaths, etc. It means they would lose their heritage as the people of Israel, and become as Gentiles, living among Gentiles. Kind of like in a captivity that they didn't know they were in captivity. This God never did to the three-tribed "house of Judah", for they retained their heritage as Israel with the feasts, sabbaths, etc.

    12 And I will destroy her vines and her fig trees, whereof she hath said, "These are my rewards that my lovers have given me: and I will make them a forest, and the beasts of the field shall eat them."

    Still about God's scattering of the ten tribes among the Gentiles, losing their blessings from God and their heritage as the majority of the people of Israel, i.e., ten tribes.

    13 And I will visit upon her the days of Baalim, wherein she burned incense to them, and she decked herself with her earrings and her jewels, and she went after her lovers, and forgat Me, saith the LORD.

    More of the same. God would soon scatter them at this point in history, and do those things to the ten tribes. And they would for a while continue to do Baal worship in the new lands of their scattering, acting just like the pagans of the Gentiles.

    Then at this point in the prophecy, God starts speaking about after their penance would be fulfilled, of when He would begin to turn her back to Him in love...
    14 Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her.
    15 And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt.
    16 And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call Me Ishi; and shalt call Me no more Baali.

    Where God would scatter the ten tribes to, He said from "thence", meaning there, He would give them her vineyards and the "valley of Achor" for a door of hope. What do you think that was about? That valley is mentioned in Isaiah 65 as one of their final resting places AFTER Christ's second coming. So God is going way forward in time with this prophecy about the ten tribed house of Israel. His bringing her into the wilderness is put for their being scattered to new lands, where He would speak comfortably to her.

    Who is our Comforter per the Book of John? Ans: The Holy Spirit through belief on Jesus Christ The Saviour.

    The name "Ishi" capitalized is a pronoun, a Name God uses for Himself with them in good standing with Him. The word ishi is a Hebrew word for 'man', but here it is used in the sense of God being our Friend. Our Lord Jesus used this idea in The Gospel also...

    John 15:14
    14 Ye are My friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

    17 For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
    18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
    19 And I will betroth thee unto Me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto Me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
    20 I will even betroth thee unto Me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.
    21 And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth;
    22 And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel.

    That was when God send His Son to die on the cross, and then The Gospel would be sent to them during the new lands the ten tribes were scattered to among the Gentiles. The majority of them would believe and put away their old Baal idols they were cast out of the holy lands for. And the earth in those areas would spring forth blessings from God (as it has done by Him in those new lands in the Christian west, and all lands associated with them in The Gospel). That is also covering the future time to us, about their return to the holy lands under Christ also, after His future return and the gathering of His Church to Him, of both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles, together, under One Head (Christ Jesus our King).

    Now notice how that name "Jezreel" is again being used here in the above. That's about Blessings from God to the ten tribes of the house of Israel, not a cursing. So that word Jezreel, which means 'God will sow', is about this matter of His scattering of the house of Israel (ten tribes), and then sending The Gospel to them in their new lands where they would wind up (Christian west), and the lands being blessed with plenty of corn and wine, etc., and their calling Him "Ishi" instead of "Baali". That is... the Birthright God first gave through Abraham, then to Isaac, then to Jacob, and then to Joseph, and then to his son Ephraim. And God would make one of the tribe of Ephraim as head over the ten tribes, as it still is today in the Christian west.

    No wonder Judah (Jews) hate all this, because it actually means God would exalt the ten tribes of the house of Israel OVER the majority of the house of Judah once the Jews refused The Gospel. Thus like Apostle Paul showed in Rom.11 about the unbelieving Jews would fall so God's Salvation would also go to the Gentiles, also includes the majority of the seed of the house of Israel, or ten tribes, a people as many as the sands of the sea.

    23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not My people, "Thou art My people"; and they shall say, "Thou art my God."

    That idea about God sowing is in direct relation to that name Jezreel being used in the positive about how God would sow the majority of His people in The Gospel of Jesus Christ. God is saying that about both believers of Israelites (especially the ten tribes here in Hosea), and believing Gentiles. That belief came to pass in majority only in the Christian west first, and then to all other nations of the Gentiles. And in final with Christ's return, that will also be the final version.

    Those like daq show they are aligned with the unbelieving Jews that hate this prophecy from God about the ten tribes of Israel. God has not lost the ten tribes, the world has, and the majority of Judah has, for they still refuse to recognize God's prophecies specifically about the ten tribes becoming a great number of people after their scattering, with the majority putting away their Baalism and instead believing on Jesus Christ The Saviour.
  15. In Christ

    In Christ New Member

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    Jesus spoke in parables.

    Mark Chapter 4:2, 34

    And he taught them many things by parables.

    But without a parable spake he not not unto them.

    God is the AUTHOR of the Bible

    Genesis 5:1

    This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

    Exodus 17:14

    And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

    Exodus 24:7

    And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

    Jeremiah 36:1-4

    1 And it came to pass in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that this word came unto Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

    2 Take thee a roll of a book, and write therein all the words that I have spoken unto thee against Israel, and against Judah, and against all the nations, from the day I spake unto thee, from the days of Josiah, even unto this day.

    3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.

    4 Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah: and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the Lord, which he had spoken unto him, upon a roll of a book (Bible).

    1Corinthians 14:37

    If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
  16. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    If you had read what I wrote you might have noticed I agreed that you pretty much "nailed it" until you cut the subject matter in half so as to insert your own third party "house of the Gentiles" in addition to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. There is no third house. You cut off the final verse of chapter one so as to disconnect it and make yourself a place without having to become one of the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" yourself as Yeshua has clearly stated that one must become to enter his kingdom, (again Matthew 15:24). Basically you refuse to be graffed into the Olive Tree and have rather made for yourself your own little extra "house of the Gentiles" niche which you call "the Church" while completely ignoring the great congregation "Church" of the Body of Moses. Here is again what you stated:

    Hosea 1:1-11 KJV
    1. The word of the Lord that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.
    2. The beginning of the word of the Lord by Hosea. And the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the Lord.
    3. So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son.
    4. And the Lord said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.
    5. And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel, in the valley of Jezreel.
    6. And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
    7. But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the Lord their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
    8. Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
    9. Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
    10. Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
    11. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

    You believe that you can hack up the Scripture and take what parts you want for yourself, and who am I to stop you, but that doesn't mean I reject Yeshua just because you reject the Word in the context it was given; likewise it doesn't mean I have no right to correct your error so that you do not deceive others along with yourself. I hope others understand why you are doing what you are doing. Paul did no such thing but rather pointed to these passages trusting that those who read his words would be like the Bereans and take the whole thing in its context and entirety. Likewise I also showed where the sowing of the seed comes into play again in the Jeremiah 31 "New Covenant" passage. As for your attempts to also assassinate my character, well, that's understandable seeing how you hack up the Word. Ever heard of Marcion? He also listened to the voice of his Baal when he hacked up the Word and took what he wanted for himself. As far as "hating all this" you have me pegged wrong; I love discussing the Word, but if you do not want to hear what I have to say then put me on ignore. :)
  17. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    United States
    Shalom, daq. (My words and answers will be in purple since your verses are in blue.)
    Shalom, In-Christ.

    I'm sorry, but it is WRONG to take Mark 4:2, 34 as carte blanche to mean that EVERYTHING in the Bible is a parable, just because "God is the AUTHOR of the Bible!" That is NOT what it says nor is that what it means!
  18. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    Still nothing but the flesh in your responses Retrobyter? And how convenient that Acts 15 really no longer applies, (for you anyways) and likewise, by your same reasoning herein, then the seven letters to the seven churches of the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua were also not written to you and, therefore, must also not really apply to you. The most common, deadly, and destructive idol that a man can have in his vain imagination is the image of himself, (Daniel 3) which is his Baal. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" says the Most High. :)
  19. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    I'm a little saddened by the way the tone of this discussion has deteriorated. Is there any way that we could go on trying to edify one another in true Ephesians 4:16 style, without complaining about what other posters don't know, don't see, don't understand, etc?

    Isn't one of the reasons Paul picked the analogy of 'the body' in his epistles, that it's the best way to account for the fact of the limitations of each member, as well as the insights of the very same believers making up that body?

    We are all limited by the role we have been given and we all have to try and bloom where we've been planted. That doesn't mean our revelation is no good to anyone else. Nor does the getting of revelation determine that others will understand it precisely from our viewpoint.

    Ideally, we will share only what we have been taught by the Spirit, because that (if we stick to it) is bound to be edifying. It - having received it by the Spirit - is also proof that we have come by it legitmately. It is absolutely clear from the cluelessness of the disciples, that Jesus was not speaking their language. I don't know why we would expect there to be no truth beneath the surface of the page (Retrobyter) when the testimony of the New Testament is, that the truths on the surface of the page are almost incomprehensible to the natural mind.

    Beware, anyone who thinks they are understanding with the natural mind: you are missing far more than you can begin to imagine, without the Spirit.

    Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

    15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

    17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind ...'

    Hi In Christ,

    Here is an interesting comparison of books for you.

    Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ ..'

    Adam had sons. Jesus Christ has brothers.
  20. Dodo_David

    Dodo_David Melmacian in human guise

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    Amen! When Jewish believers in the Messiah and Gentile believers in the Messiah accept each others as spiritual siblings, bickering such as that in this thread becomes obviously ridiculous.