The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]

[Purity]

After the Messiah arrives and establishes His Kingdom, the Gentiles will flow to Isra'el for many reasons, but primarily to worship God and to see the King and get His advice, or because they have been commanded to come, or because they have heard that "the hands of the King are the hands of a healer." I believe that it will be during this time that the following prophecy is fulfilled:

I am not dogmatic in this point so please don't hold me to task but my view is a confederacy of nations headed by Russia, France and Germany along with those small Muslim countries.

There are many reasons why this is so which I wont go into here and now.

Zechariah 8:20-23
20 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:
21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also.
22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.
23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
KJV

By the way, I find it ironic that the "Palestinians" who are located now within the Gaza Strip are located RIGHT WHERE PHILISTIA WAS! Furthermore, the name "Palestine" is a Romanized form of "P'lishtiym," which is the Hebrew name for "Philistines." Coincidence? I don't think so.

Your quotation is extremely relevant.

"that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities"

This is speaking of the age when the Land will be enlarged, and the company of Jews much greater than the small remnant in the days of Zechariah. Both Judah and Israel will be restored under Messiah, and rejoice together as a united people (cp. Eze 37:10; Eze 37:16-17).

And

"to pray before Yahweh, and to seek Yahweh of hosts"

The first reason is to present the petitions of thanksgiving, and to acknowledge the blessings of heaven received in the past. The second is to petition for the divine blessings, both natural and spiritual, to continue in the future. The word "seek" (Heb. baqash) signifies to search out; thus to diligently apply the mind to the instruction of the teachers in Zion (Isa 2:2-4; Psa 34:14; Mal 2:7).

BUT did you notice the language used in Zech 8:22?

Zechariah uses the militant title of Deity, Yahweh Tzvaoth, so constantly employed in the prophecy of Zechariah, signifies Yahweh manifested through His army of glorified saints with Christ at their head (Rev 19:14).

Glorious for those who take part in this age.

Purity

p.s I liked your point on Palistine!

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Purity,

I think your post is easier to reply to, so I will proceed.

How is it a single word could stop you in your tracks? Say it with me "Jesus Christ is a Jew"

I have no idea what makes you think I have a problem with the Jewishness of Jesus Christ. It is not an issue for me.

Lets try this another way shall we "Jesus Christ was a naturally born Jew after the stock of Abraham" AND he was as Paul writes "the" Jew inwardly of the heart by the Spirit by which he was justified (made right).

Um.... Please could you show me the verses you have in mind which say Jesus was 'justified (made right)'?

Its interesting you cannot see Jesus as a natural Jew as per:

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; (Rom 1:3)

I have no problem with Paul's statement, and still have no idea what makes you think I do.

If you are not able to link Jesus with humanity, your faith is in vain and you would be without hope (said with all seriousness).

What has given you the idea that I cannot 'link Jesus with humanity'?

(If I might just point out here - Jesus' humanity is a slightly different issue from His ethnic origin. I have no problem with either.)

The extension of Jesus being of the seed (natural offspring) of David makes him a Jew i.e King of the Jews.

Jesus was the natural seed of David through His mother, technically. He was King of the Jews because Joseph - who may have been adopted himself - adopted Him, and, He fulfilled all the relevant prophecy. Acts 3:24 - 26

"who, as to his human nature, was descended from David." Christ is the "root and offspring of David" (Rev 22:16). In fact if you cannot say "Jesus is a Jew to this day" even in his immortal state then you cannot see the essential element in these verses which teach Jesus as the Royal descendant to the throne no Israel.

Not only have you lost your Messiah but also your High Priest and your Kingdom.

This really is fundamental Bible truth and I would be surprised if you kicked against it...maybe against me but not these Bible truths.

Brother, all these worries are in your mind. I know who Jesus Christ is both before and since His resurrection. You are barking up the wrong tree completely by all the implications you are making about what you think I think.

Lets say this - if you could speak to Jesus Kingship in its rightful context we may have a common ground but at present your vagueness concerning Jesus as King of the Jews is a real thread stopper.

I don't have a problem with Jesus Kingship. He is MY King already. The thread-stopping qualities of my posts are more to do with the whole picture, which reaches from Genesis to Revelation, and is no longer anything to do with genealogies. I'm sure I don't need to quote Paul to support my point. Geneaologies were important until Messiah was revealed.

Your clarity in this is disturbing.

Your fixation with this is disturbing.

Blessings.

 

[Purity]

Hi Purity,

I think your post is easier to reply to, so I will proceed.


I have no idea what makes you think I have a problem with the Jewishness of Jesus Christ. It is not an issue for me.

You say, but all these posts and we are yet to hear you say "Jesus Christ is a Jew", not only a Jew but King of the Jews.

Um.... Please could you show me the verses you have in mind which say Jesus was 'justified (made right)'?

(Sigh) The "mystery of godliness" is still unknown by so many people who call themselves Christians.

I have no problem with Paul's statement, and still have no idea what makes you think I do.

What has given you the idea that I cannot 'link Jesus with humanity'?

You have struggled to call Jesus a Jew - natural descendant of David and Abraham.

(If I might just point out here - Jesus' humanity is a slightly different issue from His ethnic origin. I have no problem with either.)

His ethnic origin was out of a natural tribe of people called Jews, Hebrews, Israelites "those who crossed over" etc etc.

Jesus was the natural seed of David through His mother, technically. He was King of the Jews because Joseph - who may have been adopted himself - adopted Him, and, He fulfilled all the relevant prophecy. Acts 3:24 - 26

Couple of issues here dragon.

1. Jesus to this day is still of the seed of David - out of his own mouth Rev 22:16
2. There is nothing technical about his lineage.
3. He "is" the King of the Jews not "was"
4. All relevant prophecy would speak to that of his birth Luke 1:32 which is yet to be fulfilled

Brother, all these worries are in your mind. I know who Jesus Christ is both before and since His resurrection. You are barking up the wrong tree completely by all the implications you are making about what you think I think.

No barking here - this post has shown me what you think.

I don't have a problem with Jesus Kingship. He is MY King already. The thread-stopping qualities of my posts are more to do with the whole picture, which reaches from Genesis to Revelation, and is no longer anything to do with genealogies. I'm sure I don't need to quote Paul to support my point. Geneaologies were important until Messiah was revealed.

You don't know what you are talking about - that is the plain truth of the matter.

You do not understand the root of the tree.
You do not understand who the offspring of David represents
And you certainly do not understand the bright and morning star.

If you did, Jesus' claim of genealogies would be explainable and definable, but you cannot...because you do not understand.

If you were a member of the royal house which under God, has long been established; you would know the very root of his glory and position even then, was the seed promised, who was both son of David and Son of God

Luke 1:32,32

Purity

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Purity,

I think our conversation may be over. You have created a heap of contention out of nothing. It's difficult to believe you've read my post, because it appears that no matter what I ask or answer, you still know what I think or know, better than I do.

Blessings.

 

[Dodo_David]

The nature of the argument in this thread has become as clear as mud (at least to me).

Who here has denied the Jewishness of Jesus? Nobody that I know.

Who here denies that Jesus came for the Jews first, then for the Gentiles? Nobody that I know.

So, what exactly is being disputed in this discussion thread?

 

[dragonfly]

Hi David,

Briefly, the difference between the flesh and the Spirit, and a lot of questionable doctrine resting on a misapprehesion of Paul's use of Isa 59:20.

 

[Purity]

Hi Purity,

I think our conversation may be over. You have created a heap of contention out of nothing. It's difficult to believe you've read my post, because it appears that no matter what I ask or answer, you still know what I think or know, better than I do.

Blessings.

Fair enough.

So coming full circle we find Jesus returning to unite Judah and Israel and of course keeping to the prophetical example of 2 Sam 5:13, Jesus Christ is made King over all Israel as promised in Luke 1:32,33. After all he is King of the Jews...so he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Rom 2:29)

In accepting this Dodo is no longer confused with the thread and you have spoken in harmony with the Word of God. Also Rom 11:25 is now reconciled to show this event is after the gentile times are fulfilled - as per 2 Sam 5:5 Jesus will reign from Jerusalem and subdue his enemies though not just his neighbours but all the earth.

The contention out of nothing statement is an exaggeration on your part.

I look forward to meeting you again in the forum.

Purity

 

[dragonfly]

Hello?

Purity?

Do you see that you've yet again put words into my mouth?


Where have I - in all my many contributions to this thread - ever said what you have posted on my behalf?

 

[Dodo_David]

So coming full circle we find Jesus returning to unite Judah and Israel . . .

I see nothing in the New Testament that makes such a claim.

In Ephesians 2:11-18, the Apostle Paul states the following:

11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

The last time that I checked, the males of all 12 tribes of Israel were circumcised. Indeed, in the above-quoted passage, Paul mentions Israel, not Judah.

Now, technically, by uniting the Israelites and the Gentiles into "one new humanity", the 10 lost tribes of Israel will be reunited with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. However, Paul is describing "one new humanity" comprised of people from all 12 tribes of Israel and people from all Gentile groups.

 

[Purity]

I see nothing in the New Testament that makes such a claim.

In Ephesians 2:11-18, the Apostle Paul states the following:

Here is a typical example of either one not reading the posts correctly or simply ignoring the Scripture already discussed.

Heb 8:8

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come,

The time is coming (unfulfilled at this time!)is a typical introduction to a messianic prophecy. God speaks through the prophet about a future time when a new covenant will be established with his people. The prophet Jeremiah writes in a time of trouble and disillusionment; Judah and Jerusalem have fallen to the invading Babylonians and have been carried off into exile, all this by way of judgment upon the people for their disobedience.

saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (Heb 8:8)

You will notice both houses are mentioned as being the eventual recipient of this covenant.

Of course later in the Chapter the writer understands his Bible Prophecy (unlike many here) when he combines them into ONE HOUSE!

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (Heb 8:10)

"Those days" = future
"The time is coming" = future
"After those days" = future

The new covenant will do something new for the combined house of Israel (Ezek 37 READ IT!), and necessary: it will produce true righteousness, the personal knowledge of the Lord, and effective forgiveness of sins. Such results are the "better promises" referred to in Heb 8:6 -- which are now experienced by the people of God, the ecclesia. This is the meaning of Jesus Christ and his finished work of atonement, for he is "the guarantee of a better covenant" (Heb 7:22), "the mediator of a new covenant" (Heb 9:15).

Dodo, knock and the door can be opened unto you.

Purity

Dodo, can see why I grow tired of speaking to self declared Christians who make little effort to even read the NT only to make declarations about what it does and doesn't say. Surely you can see the frustration

You said: "I see nothing in the New Testament that makes such a claim"

 

[veteran]

I see nothing in the New Testament that makes such a claim.

In Ephesians 2:11-18, the Apostle Paul states the following:



The last time that I checked, the males of all 12 tribes of Israel were circumcised. Indeed, in the above-quoted passage, Paul mentions Israel, not Judah.

Now, technically, by uniting the Israelites and the Gentiles into "one new humanity", the 10 lost tribes of Israel will be reunited with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. However, Paul is describing "one new humanity" comprised of people from all 12 tribes of Israel and people from all Gentile groups.

That's true, however, in Amos 9 God shows He has not lost any of the scattered ten tribes of the house of Israel...


Amos 9:8-11
8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10 All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, which say, "The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us."
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
(KJV)

 

[dragonfly]

Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.


'residue' It would appear that 'the residue of men' is a reference to Israelites, because it is followed by 'and all the Gentiles...' Acts 13:46 - 48


Ephesians 1: '... Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, dragonfly.

Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.


'residue' It would appear that 'the residue of men' is a reference to Israelites, because it is followed by 'and all the Gentiles...' Acts 13:46 - 48


Ephesians 1: '... Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

If this is a response to veteran, the problem boils down to this: Do the ten tribes that were scattered among the nations belong to this "residue of men," separate from the "Gentiles," which follows, OR is this poetic speech and as a couplet, this "residue of men" is EQUIVALENT TO the "Gentiles," in which case the ten tribes of Isra'el are SEPARATE FROM the "Gentiles?" Consider this: This is a quotation from the Tanakh (the OT) and often the wording of the prophecies were done in poetic form in the form of couplets, usually as synonyms.

The thing to do is look it up in the Tanakh and SEE how the passage is worded.

What I found is truly ironic; I copy it here carefully transliterated:

`Amowc 9:11-12
11 Bayowm hahuw'
'aaqiym et-cukat Daaviyd hannofelet
vgaadartiy et-pirtseeyhen vaharicotaayv aaqiym
uwVniytiyhaa kiymeey `owlaam:
12 Lma`an yiyrshuw et-sh'eeriyt Edowm
vkhaal-haggowyim asher-niqraa' shmiy `aleeyhem
n'um-YHVH `oseh zo't:
JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh by the Jewish Publication Society

Here's a few translations into English:

Amos 9:11-12
11 "In that day I will restore
David's fallen tent.
I will repair its broken places,
restore its ruins,
and build it as it used to be,
12 so that they may possess the remnant of Edom
and all the nations that bear my name,"
declares the LORD, who will do these things.
NIV

Amos 9:11-12
11 "In that day I will araise up the fallen booth of David,
And wall up its breaches;
I will also raise up its ruins
And rebuild it as in the days of old;
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom
And all the nations who are called by My name,"
Declares the LORD who does this.
NASU

Amos 9:11-12
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
KJV

Amos 9:11-12
11 “When that day comes, I will raise up
the fallen sukkah of David.
I will close up its gaps, raise up its ruins
and rebuild it as it used to be,
12 so that Isra’el can possess
what is left of Edom
and of all the nations bearing my name,”
says Adonai, who is doing this.
CJB

In ALL of these versions, the word "Edowm" is rendered into English as "Edom." And yet, here are all the same versions of Acts 15:16-17:


Acts 15:16-17
16 "'After this I will return
and rebuild David's fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17 that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things'...
NIV

Acts 15:16-17
16 'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return,
AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN,
AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS,
AND I WILL RESTORE IT,
17 SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD,
AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'
18 SAYS THE LORD, ...
NASU

Acts 15:16-17
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
KJV

Acts 15:16-18
16 ‘“After this, I will return;
and I will rebuild the fallen tent of David.
I will rebuild its ruins,
I will restore it,
17 so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
that is, all the Goyim who have been called by my name,”
18 says Adonai, who is doing these things.’
CJB

And, just to fill out the rest of the picture, here's the Greek of the passage:

Praxeis 15:16-18
16 Meta tauta anastrepsoo
kai anoikodomeesoo teen skeeneen Dauid teen peptookuian,
kai ta kateskammena autees anoikodomeesoo
kai anorthoosoo auteen,
17 hopoos an ekzeeteesoosin hoi kataloipoi toon anthroopoon ton Kurion,
kai panta ta ethnee ef' hous epikekleetai to onoma mou ep' autous,
legei Kurios poioon tauta
18 gnoosta ap' aioonos.

So, HERE, the problem is in NONE of the English versions; it's in the translation of the Hebrew to the Greek! And, no, that doesn't mean that Ya`aqov (James) was wrong here or that he misquoted `Amowc (Amos)! It was purely on the translator WAY BACK WHEN they first translated what was written about what Ya`aqov said in Hebrew (or Aramaic) into the Greek!

The problem, as I see it, is simply this: In Hebrew and Aramaic, "man," "mankind," or "men" is from the Hebrew word "aadaam," spelled alef-dalet-mem. Remember: the vowel pointing was not introduced until later. The name of the FIRST Man or "Adam" adds the definite article to that as "ha'aadaam," spelled hei-alef-dalet-mem. The nickname of Avraham's grandson, Esav (Esau), is the SAME WORD, "Edom," also spelled alef-dalet-mem. Both names mean "Red." In Adam's case, it was for the red clay from which he was fashioned, but in Esav's case it was for the red pottage (probably a thick vegetable soup, heavy on the tomatoes) for which he sold his birthright. In some books, "Edom" is "Edowm," spelled alef-dalet-vav-mem, but not always so. So, the translator was confused or was unaware that the prophecy of `Amowc was talking about "Edom" and his progeny who lived on Mount Seir, and he put down "anthroopoon" instead of "Edoom."

Granted there's some speculation here, but knowing that both `Amowc (Amos) and Ya`aqov (James) were both influenced by the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) to say what they said, it's the only thing that makes sense to me. In Ya`aqov's case, it's a non-essential since his focus is on the "all the Goyim-Ethnoi-Gentiles" portion of the passage. But, you can see how a little matter like this can escalate into this misunderstanding of the ten tribes!

By the way, it IS poetic because these verses are arranged in couplets.

 

[Purity]

Amos 9:11-12
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
KJV

Acts 15:16-17

16 "'After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it 17 that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things'... NIV

-Can you define the tabernacle of David?
-Can you discern the time of its destruction "fallen down"?
-How will it be rebuilt?
-Who will set it up?
-Who are the residue of men?
-And how important is the word "and" in Acts 15:17KJV?
-Whose name is called upon in this day?
-Which "age" is being spoke of Acts 15:18KJV?

 

[veteran]

Amos 9:8-11
8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10 All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, which say, "The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us."
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
(KJV)

That Scripture just is not... that difficult.

What God revealed by it:

1. that the ten tribes of the "house of Israel" is still a separated group of people apart from the house of Judah all... the way to end at Christ's second coming. (the Israel under Solomon had been separated into two houses by this point in Bible history).

2. a specific event of "evil" that some among the ten tribes will be saying, "The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us." That would be what doctrinal idea for the end of days? Ans: the tribulation.

3. that David's throne in Jerusalem will be restored to its original status in OT history. That has never... happened since king Zedekiah of Judah was taken captive by the king of Babylon in Jeremiah's day, all his son heirs killed, and Zedekiah having died while captive in Babylon.

 

[Purity]

Amos 9:8-11
8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10 All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, which say, "The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us."
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
(KJV)

That Scripture just is not... that difficult.

Agreed

What God revealed by it:

1. that the ten tribes of the "house of Israel" is still a separated group of people apart from the house of Judah all... the way to end at Christ's second coming. (the Israel under Solomon had been separated into two houses by this point in Bible history).

Correct

2. a specific event of "evil" that some among the ten tribes will be saying, "The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us." That would be what doctrinal idea for the end of days? Ans: the tribulation.

Futurist view of Revelation is erroneous.

3. that David's throne in Jerusalem will be restored to its original status in OT history. That has never... happened since king Zedekiah of Judah was taken captive by the king of Babylon in Jeremiah's day, all his son heirs killed, and Zedekiah having died while captive in Babylon.

Not yet restored until he whose right it is to sit upon it returns.

Purity

 

[veteran]

Agreed

Correct

Futurist view of Revelation is erroneous.


Not yet restored until he whose right it is to sit upon it returns.

Purity

So the only thing you disagree there about is that Christ's Book of Revelation has nothing to do with events of our near future??

 

[Purity]

So the only thing you disagree there about is that Christ's Book of Revelation has nothing to do with events of our near future??

No, not nothing - those who believe in a 3 1/2 year tribulation period have interpreted the Revelation incorrectly.

We are living in the period of the sixth vial, which of course, part thereof has been fulfilled and a part is yet to come.

It please me to hear you speak fondly of Israel prophetically speaking.

Purity

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, Purity.

-Can you define the tabernacle of David?
-Can you discern the time of its destruction "fallen down"?
-How will it be rebuilt?
-Who will set it up?
-Who are the residue of men?
-And how important is the word "and" in Acts 15:17KJV?
-Whose name is called upon in this day?
-Which "age" is being spoke of Acts 15:18KJV?

Why are you asking these questions in this manner? Anyway, yes, I can.

Here's the Hebrew of `Amowc 9:11-12 with a word-for-word translation:


`Amowc 9:11-12
11 Bayowm hahuw'
'aaqiym et-cukat Daaviyd hannofelet
vgaadartiy et-pirtseeyhen vaharicotaayv aaqiym
uwVniytiyhaa kiymeey `owlaam:
12 Lma`an yiyrshuw et-sh'eeriyt Edowm
vkhaal-haggowyim asher-niqraa' shmiy `aleeyhem
n'um-YHVH `oseh zo't:
JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh by the Jewish Publication Society

11 Bayowm = 11 In-day
hahuw' = that-one

'aaqiym = I-will-raise-up
et- = (the next word is the direct object)
cukat = sukkah/shelter
Daaviyd = of-David
hannofelet = that-is-fallen

vgaadartiy = and-I-will-close
et-= (the next word is the direct object)
pirtseeyhen = its-rips
vaharicotaayv = and-the-demolished-(pieces)-of-him
aaqiym = I-will-raise-up

uwVniytiyhaa = and-I-will-build-it
kiymeey = like/as-days
`owlaam: = of-concealed/of-time-out-of-mind:

12 Lma`an = 12 To-that-purpose/In-order-that
yiyrshuw = they-may-possess
et- = (the next word is the direct object)
sh'eeriyt = the-remnant
Edowm = of-Edom

vkhaal- = and-of-all-
haggowyim = the-Gentile-nations
asher- = which-
niqraa' = are-called
shmiy = my-name
`aleeyhem = above/over/upon/against

n'um- = says
YHVH = ADONAI/YaHuWH
`oseh = who-does
zo't: = this (feminine):

11 In-day that-one
I-will-raise-up [the] sukkah/shelter of-David that-is-fallen
and-I-will-close its-rips and-the-demolished-(pieces)-of-him I-will-raise-up
and-I-will-build-it like/as-days of-concealed/of-time-out-of-mind:
12 To-that-purpose/In-order-that they-may-possess the-remnant of-Edom
and-of-all-the-Gentile-nations which-are-called my-name above/over/upon/against
says ADONAI/YaHuWH who-does this (feminine):

"Can you define the tabernacle of David?"
The "tabernacle of David" is "cukat Daviyd" and "cukat" is the construct state form of "cukah" or as most Jews will write it, "sukkah." That is the singular form, and the plural form is "sukkot," because it is a feminine word. That's the same as "Sukkot" the holiday, the Festival of Booths, where all Isra'el was to go to Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) and camp out in the streets once a year. It's a HUT or a SHELTER that is quick and easy to build. Thus, it is Daviyd's shelter!

The translation word used in the Greek, "skeenee" (pronounced "SKAY-nay"), simply means a "CLOTH hut," as in a Bedouin's tent. It was a place of residence, and the word was also referring to the family who lived there. To specifically name this as "DAVID'S hut" is a reference to David's family! Then, notice that the word "vaharicotaayv" has a third-person-singular-personal ending, referring DIRECTLY to David; that is, "and-HIS-demolished-pieces" are raised up!

Once this is established, the rest of the questions fairly fall into place:

"Can you discern the time of its destruction 'fallen down?"
Well, as far as the line of kings through Shlomoh (Solomon) down to Tsidkiyaahuw (Zedekiah), that time was recorded for us in 2 Kings 25:

2 Kings 25:1-21
1 And it came to pass in the ninth year of his reign, in the tenth month, in the tenth day of the month, that Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came, he, and all his host, against Jerusalem, and pitched against it; and they built forts against it round about.
2 And the city was besieged unto the eleventh year of king Zedekiah.
3 And on the ninth day of the fourth month the famine prevailed in the city, and there was no bread for the people of the land.
4 And the city was broken up, and all the men of war fled by night by the way of the gate between two walls, which is by the king's garden: (now the Chaldees were against the city round about and the king went the way toward the plain.
5 And the army of the Chaldees pursued after the king, and overtook him in the plains of Jericho: and all his army were scattered from him.
6 So they took the king, and brought him up to the king of Babylon to Riblah; and they gave judgment upon him.
7 And they slew the sons of Zedekiah before his eyes, and put out the eyes of Zedekiah, and bound him with fetters of brass, and carried him to Babylon.
8 And in the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month, which is the nineteenth year of king Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzar-adan, captain of the guard, a servant of the king of Babylon, unto Jerusalem:
9 And he burnt the house of the Lord, and the king's house, and all the houses of Jerusalem, and every great man's house burnt he with fire.
10 And all the army of the Chaldees, that were with the captain of the guard, brake down the walls of Jerusalem round about.
11 Now the rest of the people that were left in the city, and the fugitives that fell away to the king of Babylon, with the remnant of the multitude, did Nebuzar-adan the captain of the guard carry away.
12 But the captain of the guard left of the poor of the land to be vinedressers and husbandmen.
13 And the pillars of brass that were in the house of the Lord, and the bases, and the brasen sea that was in the house of the Lord, did the Chaldees break in pieces, and carried the brass of them to Babylon.
14 And the pots, and the shovels, and the snuffers, and the spoons, and all the vessels of brass wherewith they ministered, took they away.
15 And the firepans, and the bowls, and such things as were of gold, in gold, and of silver, in silver, the captain of the guard took away.
16 The two pillars, one sea, and the bases which Solomon had made for the house of the Lord; the brass of all these vessels was without weight.
17 The height of the one pillar was eighteen cubits, and the chapiter upon it was brass: and the height of the chapiter three cubits; and the wreathen work, and pomegranates upon the chapiter round about, all of brass: and like unto these had the second pillar with wreathen work.
18 And the captain of the guard took Seraiah the chief priest, and Zephaniah the second priest, and the three keepers of the door:
19 And out of the city he took an officer that was set over the men of war, and five men of them that were in the king's presence, which were found in the city, and the principal scribe of the host, which mustered the people of the land, and threescore men of the people of the land that were found in the city:
20 And Nebuzar-adan captain of the guard took these, and brought them to the king of Babylon to Riblah:
21 And the king of Babylon smote them, and slew them at Riblah in the land of Hamath. So Judah was carried away out of their land.
KJV

This occurred in 423 B.C.

"How will it be rebuilt?"
It was rebuilt through another line of Shlomo (Shaltiy'el or Shealtiel, instead of Tsidkiyaahuw, the next runner-up for the throne, as listed in Matthew 1) and another line of David, that of Natan, another son of Daviyd, ancestor of Miryam.


"Who will set it up?"
Well, technically, GOD sets it up! HE prepared for Yeshua` a body!

"Who are the residue of men?"
You mean, the residue of Edowm or Edom. IT is actually the land of Edowm or the Mount Seir southeast of the Dead Sea in Jordan near the town of Al Karak.

"And how important is the word 'and' in Acts 15:17 KJV?"
If you mean "and all the Gentiles," it attaches all properties of the other Goyim to this inheritance of Edowm, but the way that it is used in the NT is to show that the Gentiles will come to the Messiah! They WILL come, either voluntarily through finding God's justification through His Son or they will come by FORCE when the Messiah becomes haMelekh Yisra'el (the King of Isra'el)!

"Whose name is called upon in this day?"
Well, since this is a DIRECT QUOTE of `Amowc's prophecy, it is YHWH'S NAME!

"Which 'age' is being spoke of Acts 15:18 KJV?"

The Greek phrase in some versions is "Gnoosta ap' aioonos estin too Theoo panta ta erga autou," which translates word-for-word to "Well-known away-from age are of-the God all the works of-Him." You can put it together, but it's talking about a VERY LONG TIME, an AGE! I believe that the wording means that His works are SO well known that they are INDEPENDENT of the age!

 

[veteran]

No, not nothing - those who believe in a 3 1/2 year tribulation period have interpreted the Revelation incorrectly.

We are living in the period of the sixth vial, which of course, part thereof has been fulfilled and a part is yet to come.

I have to disgree with you on that. The 6th Vial has not been poured out yet, for the great tribulation timing Jesus spoke of has to be in place for that 6th Vial events to happen.

The 6th Vial is timed with the events of the 6th Trumpet, and a portion of the 6th Seal events of Rev.6. That's why the 6th Vial events have the "dragon" and "false prophet" already here on earth, working miracles.

It please me to hear you speak fondly of Israel prophetically speaking.

Purity

Just keeping to God's Word in Amos as written. But don't forget what He said about the sinners of His people and what they will be saying there, and the event that is pointing to.