The Purpose Of God For Man

[Charlie24]

I certainly disagree with John Calvin on his theory of predestination, but find him to be a brilliant mind, a thought provoking writer. I have read parts of his commentary many times over the years. Some time back I was reading his commentary on the creation, and as usual a thought provoking moment occurred.

He said, "God willed man to fall" but gave no explanation of that comment, other than expressing God's will being the dominant force of creation, and we should not question that will.

I'm that guy that questions everything concerning Scripture, especially "why would God will that man fall." So immediately I had some thoughts on this and it became a serious search for answers. I began with going back to the Garden of Eden to familiarize myself with the surroundings of Adam and Eve. From my view of Scripture, I believed what Calvin said to be true "God willed man to fall" but I had no reasonable explanation of how it could be true. The explanation I found was just the opposite of Calvin's view of "free will."

I have never heard a sermon preached on this subject, never been taught any of this I found, so you can point the finger directly at me if you find a problem with it. Maybe you can help me add a few dots to the puzzle.

Gen 2:9
"And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil."

It is believed that God created fruit trees, nut trees, etc, of all kinds for man to eat.

He also created "the tree of life" in the midst of the Garden. This is believed to be the source of fruit, whatever it may have been, that was eaten from time to time that enabled man to live forever in the flesh. It is believed God made man to live forever in the flesh, the reason for the resurrection, among other apparent reasons.

And then we find that God also created "the tree of knowledge of good and evil." This is the tree that God commanded them not to eat from, "in the day that you thereof, you shall surely die." This tree is called "the tree of death." So we have a "tree of life" and "a tree of death" in the midst of the various trees for food.

So why would God place a "tree of death" in the midst of all this perfection, knowing full well they would eat from it and fall from the state of an innocent nature to a state of fallen nature? Which would bring all the sorrow, pain and suffering, death, and all the problems you have in this life?

To make it more interesting, why would God allow the spirit of his enemy, Satan, to enter the serpent and entice the eating of this forbidden fruit (or whatever it was)? Why does God allow Satan to exist at all? I believe the existence of the "tree of death" and Satan share a common cause in the plan of God! I believe when Calvin said "God willed man to fall" he was correct. But why? Calvin said that man has no free will of his own, and I believe the opposite of this is true, and the very reason God placed that "tree of death" and Satan in the Garden for it to happen.

God could have kept that "tree of death" out of the Garden, He could have destroyed Satan when he fell, and none of this would have ever happened. But He purposed it to happen! The struggle with Satan and the flesh is what draws us closer to Christ, strengthens our faith, which is one of the purposes of Satan, the main reason he is still around.

What I found, the opposite to what Calvin believed on free will, but according to his statement that "God willed man to fall," God has made a separation of man who will believe Him or not believe Him, not according to His will, but the will of man. The Scripture says that it is God's will that all men be saved. We see from Scripture that God's will is not accomplished in the salvation of all. Meaning the will of man is the determining factor and not God's will as Calvin suggested.

Man had to fall from the innocence of not knowing sin and evil in order to have free will to choose God. God wants man to love and serve Him of his own free will, not by the will of God Himself choosing through His foreknowledge, or by choosing some by favor and not others. Calvin himself said this was a horrible conclusion, but accepted it as the truth of Scripture in his theory.

I also believe in the end, man returns to that state of innocence. No more sin in the New Heaven and New Earth. Sin being no longer possible for man, all traces of sin removed. Every single person there with God will have chosen of his own free will to be there. The only way God would have it.

Back to the "tree of life" and the "tree of death." they are still present today in spirit. Man with his life can eat of the "tree of life" and reap life everlasting through the Cross of Christ, or he can eat of the "tree of death" and reap the curse of God, the Lake of Fire. It's man's choice. I believe in "whosoever will, let him come."

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes, interesting subject for me too. I also admire Calvin, but disagree with "double predestination" in a sense. If he believed that the Fall was foreordained, I don't. But once fallen, God does ordain certain results.

Carnal Man will produce carnal children, not chosen by Him. And these unchosen children will choose to fall simply because they were not part of God's original plan, determined from before the foundation of the world. They have free will, but their choice is, in a sense, fore-ordained. They choose according to their nature.

God put the tree of knowledge in the Garden to give man a choice, just as He had given the angels a choice. I agree--it was to obtain service from His creatures by their own free choice, which is only possible with an alternative. But I don't believe it meant that God fore-ordained the Fall. That is never said in Scriptures--only that in the beginning, once fallen, God provided the cross "from the foundation of the earth."

That is, from the time of the Fall of Man in the beginning, God had already provided His Son, which at that point became the crucified Savior. He was not planned to be the crucified Savior from *before* the foundation of the world. God had only planned for the Son to come into the world from before the foundation of the world.

The only thing that was pre-ordained *before* the foundation of the earth was God's plan to create all things through Christ, who He planned to make the first born among many brethren, king of the human race, and divine Son.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, interesting subject for me too. I also admire Calvin, but disagree with "double predestination" in a sense. If he believed that the Fall was foreordained, I don't. But once fallen, God does ordain certain results.

Carnal Man will produce carnal children, not chosen by Him. And these unchosen children will choose to fall simply because they were not part of God's original plan, determined from before the foundation of the world. They have free will, but their choice is, in a sense, fore-ordained. They choose according to their nature.

God put the tree of knowledge in the Garden to give man a choice, just as He had given the angels a choice. I agree--it was to obtain service from His creatures by their own free choice, which is only possible with an alternative. But I don't believe it meant that God fore-ordained the Fall. That is never said in Scriptures--only that in the beginning, once fallen, God provided the cross "from the foundation of the earth."

That is, from the time of the Fall of Man in the beginning, God had already provided His Son, which at that point became the crucified Savior. He was not planned to be the crucified Savior from *before* the foundation of the world. God had only planned for the Son to come into the world from before the foundation of the world.

The only thing that was pre-ordained *before* the foundation of the earth was God's plan to create all things through Christ, who He planned to make the first born among many brethren, king of the human race, and divine Son.

I agree with almost everything you said, except for the type of free will Adam and Eve possessed in the innocent state of their creation. Calvin admitted that in this state they had the free will to choose between the commandment of their Creator and the lies of Satan. It was the pride of thinking they would become "as gods," at least this was the lie Satan gave to them.

Calvin didn't address this, my view is that God prepared this to show Adam and Eve who they really are. He allowed them to fall for them to see what it is to be outside the perfection of the Creator. They now know what sin is, and now they must decide, with the free will in a different light.

It seems Calvin assumes the free will is lost now that they have fell into the depraved state of sin, I say that free will is now born to choose a life of sin, or the redemption for their sin to regain the fellowship with God.

This fellowship would be regained through the blood sacrifice of an animal that represented the blood of Christ, sacrificed for the sins of the world.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I agree with almost everything you said, except for the type of free will Adam and Eve possessed in the innocent state of their creation. Calvin admitted that in this state they had the free will to choose between the commandment of their Creator and the lies of Satan. It was the pride of thinking they would become "as gods," at least this was the lie Satan gave to them.

Calvin didn't address this, my view is that God prepared this to show Adam and Eve who they really are. He allowed them to fall for them to see what it is to be outside the perfection of the Creator. They now know what sin is, and now they must decide, with the free will in a different light.

It seems Calvin assumes the free will is lost now that they have fell into the depraved state of sin, I say that free will is now born to choose a life of sin, or the redemption for their sin to regain the fellowship with God.

This fellowship would be regained through the blood sacrifice of an animal that represented the blood of Christ, sacrificed for the sins of the world.

So you think that free will continued to exist after the Fall, instead of Calvin's "Total Depravity?" Luther believed the same thing, as expressed in his book, "Bondage of the Will." He felt God had to initiate Salvation, since the human will was totally depraved, and did not seek God.

I agree with you that Free Will did not go away with the Fall, if I understand you correctly? I disagree with both Calvin and Luther on the issue of Total Depravity, or the Bondage of the Will. Man can still choose for God.

But I believe that God does approach Man first because the Scriptures say, "God first loved us." So, God's love is built into our will and conscience such that even after the Fall we continue to have access to the grace of God and the free will that accompanies that grace.

But yes, we would disagree on the idea that God pre-planned the Fall of Man. That makes no sense to me, that God would judge Man for dong the very thing God made him to do! ?????

But it's an interesting subject. We have to work it out for ourselves.

 

[Charlie24]

So you think that free will continued to exist after the Fall, instead of Calvin's "Total Depravity?" Luther believed the same thing, as expressed in his book, "Bondage of the Will." He felt God had to initiate Salvation, since the human will was totally depraved, and did not seek God.

I agree with you that Free Will did not go away with the Fall, if I understand you correctly? I disagree with both Calvin and Luther on the issue of Total Depravity, or the Bondage of the Will. Man can still choose for God.

But I believe that God does approach Man first because the Scriptures say, "God first loved us." So, God's love is built into our will and conscience such that even after the Fall we continue to have access to the grace of God and the free will that accompanies that grace.

But yes, we would disagree on the idea that God pre-planned the Fall of Man. That makes no sense to me, that God would judge Man for dong the very thing God made him to do! ?????

But it's an interesting subject. We have to work it out for ourselves.

I think Paul made it clear that man is totally depraved.

Rom. 3:10-12
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

But as I have said in another thread, that is as far as I can go with Calvin's theory of predestination.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I think Paul made it clear that man is totally depraved.

Rom. 3:10-12
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

But as I have said in another thread, that is as far as I can go with Calvin's theory of predestination.

Yes, that's why Luther and Calvin held to "bondage of the will" and "total depravity." But I agree with you--that's not what is actually being said about Free Will.

Paul is using a particularly bad time in Israel's history to show that sin is in everyone. If an entire society built on the laws and covenants of God can go completely morally bankrupt, then that indicates sin is in all of us.

It certainly doesn't mean we can't help ourselves, and must sin to the nth degree every day, 24-7! It's just an extreme case to prove the point, that we all have a Sin Nature.

None of that means we don't have Free Will. And that's the point.

It isn't Total Depravity as in the loss of Free Will. It isn't even Total Depravity. Paul was only arguing that we're all *capable of it,* as evidenced by an occasion when that actually happened.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, that's why Luther and Calvin held to "bondage of the will" and "total depravity." But I agree with you--that's not what is actually being said about Free Will.

Paul is using a particularly bad time in Israel's history to show that sin is in everyone. If an entire society built on the laws and covenants of God can go completely morally bankrupt, then that indicates sin is in all of us.

It certainly doesn't mean we can't help ourselves, and must sin to the nth degree every day, 24-7! It's just an extreme case to prove the point, that we all have a Sin Nature.

None of that means we don't have Free Will. And that's the point.

It isn't Total Depravity as in the loss of Free Will. It isn't even Total Depravity. Paul was only arguing that we're all *capable of it,* as evidenced by an occasion when that actually happened.

I certainly agree! Total depravity does not mean man has no free will.

Total depravity means that man left on his own will not and cannot seek out God, He must come to them.

He does that through the Gospel message, when heard, man has no option but to accept or reject that message.

This is just the opposite of Calvin's theory.

 

[Wrangler]

I'm that guy that questions everything concerning Scripture, especially "why would God will that man fall."

It is kind of like an inventor willing his invention did not work. It begs the question of why make man if only to fail. I had a couple of thoughts.

1st thought: Although made directly by God, was Adam a subpar man? If 100 men had the experience would the results be the same?

2nd thought: The test was rigged. Adam was a subpar man given that he had no knowledge of good and evil. A regular man posseses such knowledge and would know it is wrong to disobey God.

3rd thought: This weeks sermon invoked puzzles. Puzzle pieces fit together a certain way and not other ways. This goes against equality! God is not a communist. God designed us to be unequal - to him and to each other. We only fit a certain way. And that way is the greatest commandment that Jesus taught, to love God and others. He did not design us to be independent of him. The Fall was not for God. The Fall was for us. The Fall was for us to have the experience of exercising our God given Free Will - even in a manner that the Creator does not approve of - to know how much we need our Creator and to know how much he loves us by the extent to which he goes to keep us. He sacrificed his only begotten son for our sake. What a God!

I certainly disagree with John Calvin on his theory of predestination

In studying Augustine's Confessions, I feel I have a more enlightened view of Calvinism. It's hard for us temporal creatures to imagine a timeless existence. Being the Creator, God even created time. Therefore, he exists outside of time. We are limited to experience life as a time dependent function, going linearly forward.

The series premiere of Star Trek Deep Space 9 was very powerful on this point. "Wormhole aliens" later called 'The Prophets" got Commander Sisko to admit that humans physically move through time forward but parts of us mentally go back and forth in time. (Sisko dwelled on his wife's death). So, while we are moving forward in time struggling with choices, from God's perspective, time is not a limiting function. He has forward knowledge. I don't consider it predestination as much as God's plan, already planned out in his mind, will unfold as he Wills - taking into account how we will.

Hope this helps!

 

[marks]

I also believe in the end, man returns to that state of innocence. No more sin in the New Heaven and New Earth. Sin being no longer possible for man, all traces of sin removed. Every single person there with God will have chosen of his own free will to be there. The only way God would have it.

I agree. There will be no memory of sin, no trace, nothing, only righteousness and goodness and love.

Man had to fall from the innocence of not knowing sin and evil in order to have free will to choose God. God wants man to love and serve Him of his own free will, not by the will of God Himself choosing through His foreknowledge, or by choosing some by favor and not others. Calvin himself said this was a horrible conclusion, but accepted it as the truth of Scripture in his theory.

I've been thinking that when God created, and called His creation "good", that it was not actually good in the same way God is good. Jesus said, Only One is good. Yet when God created Man, He declared Man was good.

God's goodness is intrinsic. It's Who God is. God is always good. Man's goodness was imparted to him, it is not of Man himself. God is "stable", being immutable, not subject to change, and remains good always. Man is not immutable, and can change, and that goodness was lost.

I don't think God's intent for man was that we would fall into corruption of sin, but I do think God's intent for man was that we would love Him out of our own desire to do so, and that requires that we not be immutable, and that allows that we may fall from that original goodness.

And of course God always knew that we would fall, but I have the idea that there is God's intention, the thing that offers to man, the ideal, and there is God's foreknowledge, but knowing that we will fall does not mean He wants us to, or makes us to do so, or that He sets us up for failure. I believe even the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was there for a beneficial purpose.

We know that death apart from Christ is destruction, but when we are baptized into His death we are made alive.

I have to wonder, why had they not eaten from the Tree of Life by the time they ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? Did it not yet have fruit?

Would there have come a time that God would then direct them to eat from that tree, somehow transforming them through that death of knowing into a stable creature fit to live forever? That somehow Christ would have come and shared a death with them, I don't know, I'm only speculating here of course! Perhaps it was there purely to provide the alternative to the Life.

There didn't need to be a Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil to provide a means to disobey God. Eat an animal, that would be against His command. Abandon the garden. Decide not to have any babies, or kill their babies. Simply sit down and pout that they don't have HBO. Think in their minds, it was an evil act done by God putting that tree there, and telling us not to eat!

I think God provided Man with the very best of beginnings because God is love and He gives good things. I think it was inevitable that Man should fall, because Man's goodness is not his own, it was given by Another, and could be lost. I think we are being returned to that state of innocence. After having been allowed our own choice to love Him or not, for those who love Him, we are made stable in our spirit because our spirit is united to the immutable God. And in time to come our bodies will receive immortality as well, and we will live with Him in peace and righteousness through eternity.

Much love!

 

[Charlie24]

It is kind of like an inventor willing his invention did not work. It begs the question of why make man if only to fail. I had a couple of thoughts.

1st thought: Although made directly by God, was Adam a subpar man? If 100 men had the experience would the results be the same?

2nd thought: The test was rigged. Adam was a subpar man given that he had no knowledge of good and evil. A regular man posseses such knowledge and would know it is wrong to disobey God.

3rd thought: This weeks sermon invoked puzzles. Puzzle pieces fit together a certain way and not other ways. This goes against equality! God is not a communist. God designed us to be unequal - to him and to each other. We only fit a certain way. And that way is the greatest commandment that Jesus taught, to love God and others. He did not design us to be independent of him. The Fall was not for God. The Fall was for us. The Fall was for us to have the experience of exercising our God given Free Will - even in a manner that the Creator does not approve of - to know how much we need our Creator and to know how much he loves us by the extent to which he goes to keep us. He sacrificed his only begotten son for our sake. What a God!



In studying Augustine's Confessions, I feel I have a more enlightened view of Calvinism. It's hard for us temporal creatures to imagine a timeless existence. Being the Creator, God even created time. Therefore, he exists outside of time. We are limited to experience life as a time dependent function, going linearly forward.

The series premiere of Star Trek Deep Space 9 was very powerful on this point. "Wormhole aliens" later called 'The Prophets" got Commander Sisko to admit that humans physically move through time forward but parts of us mentally go back and forth in time. (Sisko dwelled on his wife's death). So, while we are moving forward in time struggling with choices, from God's perspective, time is not a limiting function. He has forward knowledge. I don't consider it predestination as much as God's plan, already planned out in his mind, will unfold as he Wills - taking into account how we will.

Hope this helps!

God created man in His perfect image, in a perfect environment, with a perfect relationship with that man who was to live in the flesh forever.

If you read to the end of Scripture, you will find man has made a 360 and is right back in God's perfect creation, just as Adam was in the beginning.

What I have tried to explain is why man had to go through that 360 to get there! I believe it had everything to do with free will of man, the opposite cited by Calvin. God had to show man who he was left on his own, even though he was in a perfect environment, but had no knowledge of sin, he had no reason to pursue his Creator. There was no reason to choose God.

With God wanting a relationship with His creation, but by His own standard of righteousness had to demand perfection, there was no way man could achieve that goal with his own free will. But God wants man to serve Him of his own free will.

In order for this to happen we have the 360 explained, at least for me.

 

[Wrangler]

I believe it had everything to do with free will of man, the opposite cited by Calvin.

I'm not so sure that predestination goes against Free Will like people suppose. I already explained this.

If you went back in time, knowing what you know now, are people exercising Free Will or are they destined to make the choices they make?

 

[Charlie24]

I agree. There will be no memory of sin, no trace, nothing, only righteousness and goodness and love.



I've been thinking that when God created, and called His creation "good", that it was not actually good in the same way God is good. Jesus said, Only One is good. Yet when God created Man, He declared Man was good.

God's goodness is intrinsic. It's Who God is. God is always good. Man's goodness was imparted to him, it is not of Man himself. God is "stable", being immutable, not subject to change, and remains good always. Man is not immutable, and can change, and that goodness was lost.

I don't think God's intent for man was that we would fall into corruption of sin, but I do think God's intent for man was that we would love Him out of our own desire to do so, and that requires that we not be immutable, and that allows that we may fall from that original goodness.

And of course God always knew that we would fall, but I have the idea that there is God's intention, the thing that offers to man, the ideal, and there is God's foreknowledge, but knowing that we will fall does not mean He wants us to, or makes us to do so, or that He sets us up for failure. I believe even the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was there for a beneficial purpose.

We know that death apart from Christ is destruction, but when we are baptized into His death we are made alive.

I have to wonder, why had they not eaten from the Tree of Life by the time they ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? Did it not yet have fruit?

Would there have come a time that God would then direct them to eat from that tree, somehow transforming them through that death of knowing into a stable creature fit to live forever? That somehow Christ would have come and shared a death with them, I don't know, I'm only speculating here of course! Perhaps it was there purely to provide the alternative to the Life.

There didn't need to be a Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil to provide a means to disobey God. Eat an animal, that would be against His command. Abandon the garden. Decide not to have any babies, or kill their babies. Simply sit down and pout that they don't have HBO. Think in their minds, it was an evil act done by God putting that tree there, and telling us not to eat!

I think God provided Man with the very best of beginnings because God is love and He gives good things. I think it was inevitable that Man should fall, because Man's goodness is not his own, it was given by Another, and could be lost. I think we are being returned to that state of innocence. After having been allowed our own choice to love Him or not, for those who love Him, we are made stable in our spirit because our spirit is united to the immutable God. And in time to come our bodies will receive immortality as well, and we will live with Him in peace and righteousness through eternity.

Much love!

I certainly believe God had good intensions for everything He did. At the same time I also believe He had to teach man the responsibility of free will. I believe God would not accept anything but the free will of man to serve Him.

A lesson hard learned but necessary.

 

[Charlie24]

I'm not so sure that predestination goes against Free Will like people suppose. I already explained this.

If you went back in time, knowing what you know now, are people exercising Free Will or are they destined to make the choices they make?

The predestination that Calvin taught demands no free will of man. His whole point is that man has no choice, it is God that chooses.

This I reject with every ounce of my being!

 

[Behold]

He said, "God willed man to fall" but gave no explanation of that comment"

"God willed man to fall".

Who else but the DEVIL would say/write/teach... such a LIE? ?

A.) John Calvin.

Calvin recreated "God is Love" as.....God is a cosmic psychopath who caused the fall of us all, and the only remedy supplied for the fall of us all, is not offered by God to everyone.


= Demonically Insane Tool of the Devil

 

[Charlie24]

"God willed man to fall".

Who else but the DEVIL would say/write/believe... such a LIE? ?

A.) John Calvin.

Calvin recreated "God is Love" as.....God is a cosmic psychopath who caused the fall of us all, and the only remedy supplied for the fall of us all, is not offered by God to everyone.


= Demonically Insane.

One this one I believe Calvin to be correct, as far as "god willed the fall of man."

It's ok to disagree, I'm a big boy, I can take the heat.

 

[Behold]

One this one I believe Calvin to be correct, as far as "god willed the fall of man."

It's ok to disagree, I'm a big boy, I can take the heat.

So, God told Adam and Eve not to do something, ..and later God caused them to do it,.... then blamed them for doing it...= then Held THEM Accountable?

So that we are all now born into a world of SIN, DEATH, EVIL....hell bound..... and God caused it all?

Calvin's teaching, is such a blasphemy against God, that its indescribable.

Here is what the Devil has proven.
He has proven that the bigger the LIE< the more people you can deceive by it.

 

[Charlie24]

So, God told Adam and Eve not to do something, ..and later God caused them to do it,.... then blamed them for doing it...= then Held THEM Accountable?

So that we are all now born into a world of SIN, DEATH, EVIL....hell bound..... and God caused it all?

Calvin's teaching, is such a blasphemy against God, that its indescribable.

Here is what the Devil has proven.
He has proven that the bigger the LIE< the more people you can deceive by it.

He didn't cause it to happen, through His foreknowledge He knew what would happen, He allowed it to happen.

He didn't have to allow Satan as the instigator but He did, He didn't have to create the "tree of death" but He did.

I can't explain it all, Behold. I'm not God. But I do believe Calvin on this.

 

[marks]

God is not not the author or instigator of sin. God does not desire sin in our lives. God did not create us with the intent that we should sin. Desiring sinful things is sin itself. Does anyone truly charge God with sin?

Much love!

 

[Charlie24]

God is not not the author or instigator of sin. God does not desire sin in our lives. God did not create us with the intent that we should sin. Desiring sinful things is sin itself. Does anyone truly charge God with sin?

Much love!

I certainly don't charge God with sin in any form, and agree with every word you said!

But I know that God allows many things to take place in this world that are not His will.

He will not violate man's free will! That makes the free will of man of the upmost importance to God.

 

[Behold]

He didn't cause it to happen, through His foreknowledge He knew what would happen, He allowed it to happen.

"allowed it to happen" is not "caused it to happen".

So, you are talking about the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God....

"God Forknew"......

So, where Calvin twists that into a devil inspired lie, is by redesigning....>"God knows it all" into "GOD CAUSES it all".

See that FLIP?

It it absolutely true that God KNOWS everything, now and forever... He has "FORE-Knowledge".. that is the knowledge of everything that will happen.......= BEFORE it happens...
That is TRUE.

What the Devil did with Calvin is get him to teach "knowing all" is "CAUSING IT ALL".

See that? That is where the DEVIL took Calvin's mind, and caused him to INVENT..."knowing" is "CAUSING". = "Pre-destined".

FREEWILL is PRE-DETERMINED...

See that? Its the same demonic idea.

Yesterday on the Forum, i talked about Hitler.. according to John Calvin's theology.
JCalvin theology teaches that what you do is pre-determined, pre-decided, and caused to happen, and you are nothing more then a live puppet filled with blood, doing it.
So, in that CASE.....if that is true, then you are caused to be a child molester... caused to be a rapist.... caused to be a Jew Burning Devil, , because John Calvin says that everything and all of it, is PRE-DETERMINED for you to do and become and you have no free will to choose to not do it.

So, if that is true, you can't be held responsible, as you had no FREE WILL to do otherwise.
You were pre-determined, pre-destined by GOD to become liar, pre-destined to become a drug addict, a murderer,...and a CHRIST REJECTOR>.

That is John Calvin's theology of "pre-determination", and it is a LIE born in Hell.