The purpose of the Law

[Randy Kluth]

Well Paul told us clearly that no one was ever said by the works of the law! Romans 3 and Galatians make it clear that the law was given so that sin would abound. To put it into todays language- The law was givwen to show that man cannot be "good enough" to be saved and so drive them to faith!

Well yea, I completely agree with that! I think you're just arguing that the Law did not provide the *kind of* righteousness that would bring eternal life? Only Christ could do that.

I was just arguing that the Law brought a temporary form of righteousness that made God happy based on temporary atonements provided under the Law. It was just a temporary fix, and it was real righteousness, although not the kind of righteousness that brings eternal life.

I think Paul was just arguing that no matter how righteous one was under the Law, it exposed enough sin to completely disqualify him from eternal life. So yes, nobody was ever *saved* by the works of the Law. It was only ever meant to be a temporary fix--not a permanent solution.

The permanent solution was the cross. So it was the works of Christ alone that saved us, namely his death on the cross.

The Law was indeed designed to show that despite the fact God wanted Israel to be righteous, He wanted them to know that no matter how obedient they were under that system, they needed something more to attain to eternal life. They needed Christ, with his death and resurrection. That's all Paul was meaning to say, I believe. I hope we're agreed?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well yea, I completely agree with that! I think you're just arguing that the Law did not provide the *kind of* righteousness that would bring eternal life? Only Christ could do that.

I was just arguing that the Law brought a temporary form of righteousness that made God happy based on temporary atonements provided under the Law. It was just a temporary fix, and it was real righteousness, although not the kind of righteousness that brings eternal life.

I think Paul was just arguing that no matter how righteous one was under the Law, it exposed enough sin to completely disqualify him from eternal life. So yes, nobody was ever *saved* by the works of the Law. It was only ever meant to be a temporary fix--not a permanent solution.

The permanent solution was the cross. So it was the works of Christ alone that saved us, namely his death on the cross.

The Law was indeed designed to show that despite the fact God wanted Israel to be righteous, He wanted them to know that no matter how obedient they were under that system, they needed something more to attain to eternal life. They needed Christ, with his death and resurrection. That's all Paul was meaning to say, I believe. I hope we're agreed?

What you say sounds reasonable but it is not accurate. Even in the OT it was known the just shall live by faith! And faith is trust and reliance on god.

The object of our faith has differed over time in the progressive revelation of God advanced, but it was all by faith based on the blood Jesus was going to shed for all.

Remember Jesus is the lamb slain before the foundation of the World. Obedience to the law did not produce a "temporary form of righteousness."

It was trust in teh sinoffering that allowed God to cover sin in the OT until Jesus poured His blood on the heavenly mercy seat and actually removed sin!

Before jesus ascended, all the righteous who died went to Paradise/Abrahams' bosom/ hell. When Jesus ascended, He took all the souls who died in faith, not works. As Paul said, the law was given as a schoolmaster and to make the Israelites a unique people, not to grant some form of righteousness.

We are righteous because of Jesus, and our good works are just external manifestations of that righteousness given to us at salvation.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

What you say sounds reasonable but it is not accurate. Even in the OT it was known the just shall live by faith! And faith is trust and reliance on god.

The object of our faith has differed over time in the progressive revelation of God advanced, but it was all by faith based on the blood Jesus was going to shed for all.

Remember Jesus is the lamb slain before the foundation of the World. Obedience to the law did not produce a "temporary form of righteousness."

It was trust in teh sinoffering that allowed God to cover sin in the OT until Jesus poured His blood on the heavenly mercy seat and actually removed sin!

Before jesus ascended, all the righteous who died went to Paradise/Abrahams' bosom/ hell. When Jesus ascended, He took all the souls who died in faith, not works. As Paul said, the law was given as a schoolmaster and to make the Israelites a unique people, not to grant some form of righteousness.

We are righteous because of Jesus, and our good works are just external manifestations of that righteousness given to us at salvation.

Outstanding. Its great to see another soul who has been granted the right to see the Lord's Holy Plan.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What you say sounds reasonable but it is not accurate. Even in the OT it was known the just shall live by faith! And faith is trust and reliance on god.

The object of our faith has differed over time in the progressive revelation of God advanced, but it was all by faith based on the blood Jesus was going to shed for all.

Remember Jesus is the lamb slain before the foundation of the World. Obedience to the law did not produce a "temporary form of righteousness."

It was trust in teh sinoffering that allowed God to cover sin in the OT until Jesus poured His blood on the heavenly mercy seat and actually removed sin!

Before jesus ascended, all the righteous who died went to Paradise/Abrahams' bosom/ hell. When Jesus ascended, He took all the souls who died in faith, not works. As Paul said, the law was given as a schoolmaster and to make the Israelites a unique people, not to grant some form of righteousness.

We are righteous because of Jesus, and our good works are just external manifestations of that righteousness given to us at salvation.

Well then, brother, you have a serious problem--the Bible boldly declares that the Law was viewed as "righteousness" for Israel! Over and over again God required obedience to the Law--both acts of purity and redemption rituals. They were fill in works of righteousness until righteousness could be viewed as eternal under the banner of Christ's eternal atonement.

Never did I say that Israel in the OT "trusted" in works under the Law for eternal salvation. They just trusted that in obeying the Law they would be in a place of God's good pleasure until God accepted eternal atonement on their behalf.

To trust in the "sin offering that God allowed to cover sin the OT" was in fact a reliance upon the works of the Law, if by "works" you acknowledge that they include rituals of redemption. Thus, their obedience to the Law was in fact temporary works of righteousness until that righteousness could be designated "works that follow you" after the atonement of Christ.

Rev 14.13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Well then, brother, you have a serious problem--the Bible boldly declares that the Law was viewed as "righteousness" for Israel!

I'm certainly listening, as I don't consider myself a guru of any kind, but this isn't making sense. What do you make of the below passage?

Acts 13:39 KJV - "And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."

If the Law cannot Justify a person to the Lord, how then, could they be considered Righteous because of the Law?

Thanks for your input!

 

[Randy Kluth]

I'm certainly listening, as I don't consider myself a guru of any kind, but this isn't making sense. What do you make of the below passage?

Acts 13:39 KJV - "And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."

If the Law cannot Justify a person to the Lord, how then, could they be considered Righteous because of the Law?

Thanks for your input!

"Righteousness" does not always convey the sense of perfection. We know that the perfection of Christ attained to eternal life, because man was offered eternal life, and the only thing that could've prevented him from having it was imperfection, or sin.

So Jesus had righteousness that was perfect. But righteousness is mentioned in regard to imperfect men, as well. Otherwise, God would not have asked anything from men after the Fall. Over and over again we hear of the beauty of the Law in the Scriptures. Life was offered to those who obeyed the Law. It did not guarantee eternal life, but it guaranteed the prosperity of a nation until death.

The Law never guaranteed resurrection from the dead. It never guaranteed eternal life. But it did guarantee Israel a blessed nationality. It was a temporary form of righteousness because 1) men die, and 2) the nation ultimately would capitulate to sin and kill the nation.

What you're talking about is justification, the acceptance of sinful men for eternal life. The temporary righteousness of fallen men could not attain to this. But Christ could, and gave his own righteousness to imperfect men so that by his standard of perfection they could attain to what he attained to.

We now live by his righteousness, even though we remain fallen men. We do that not by being perfect ourselves, but rather, by displaying righteousness that came from him, and exhibits him. Our righteousness now exhibits him, and not the Law. That's why Israel no longer is to live by the Law, because that form of righteousness does not obtain eternal life.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

"Righteousness" does not always convey the sense of perfection. We know that the perfection of Christ attained to eternal life, because man was offered eternal life, and the only thing that could've prevented him from having it was imperfection, or sin.

So Jesus had righteousness that was perfect. But righteousness is mentioned in regard to imperfect men, as well. Otherwise, God would not have asked anything from men after the Fall. Over and over again we hear of the beauty of the Law in the Scriptures. Life was offered to those who obeyed the Law. It did not guarantee eternal life, but it guaranteed the prosperity of a nation until death.

The Law never guaranteed resurrection from the dead. It never guaranteed eternal life. But it did guarantee Israel a blessed nationality. It was a temporary form of righteousness because 1) men die, and 2) the nation ultimately would capitulate to sin and kill the nation.

What you're talking about is justification, the acceptance of sinful men for eternal life. The temporary righteousness of fallen men could not attain to this. But Christ could, and gave his own righteousness to imperfect men so that by his standard of perfection they could attain to what he attained to.

We now live by his righteousness, even though we remain fallen men. We do that not by being perfect ourselves, but rather, by displaying righteousness that came from him, and exhibits him. Our righteousness now exhibits him, and not the Law. That's why Israel no longer is to live by the Law, because that form of righteousness does not obtain eternal life.

I don't "get" anything you said. I don't see what you've written to be exemplified in the Word of God, nor did you provide Biblical evidence or reasoning to cause me to change what I see in the many translations that I use. I'm sorry. Not trying to be rude or mean . . . just being honest and fair.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I don't "get" anything you said. I don't see what you've written to be exemplified in the Word of God, nor did you provide Biblical evidence or reasoning to cause me to change what I see in the many translations that I use. I'm sorry. Not trying to be rude or mean . . . just being honest and fair.

Yea, I don't want to be rude either. It does happen at times. We are sinners.

I'm trying to say that the word "righteousness" applied, in the Bible, to imperfect, OT saints. How can they be both imperfect and "righteous?"

But that's what they're called. It indicates that "righteousness" existed in the OT under the Law, even before eternal life came. The kind of "righteousness" that has come to exist since Christ came is a different kind of "righteousness," because it now contains the element of eternal life.

I hope that's clear? It may not resolve your concerns, but I think that's pretty clear? There is not just one kind of "righteousness," but 2 kinds of "righteousness"--the temporal kind and the eternal kind. The temporal kind became eternal after Christ died on the cross, and allowed temporal righteousness from the OT saints to follow them into the Kingdom of God.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well then, brother, you have a serious problem--the Bible boldly declares that the Law was viewed as "righteousness" for Israel! Over and over again God required obedience to the Law--both acts of purity and redemption rituals. They were fill in works of righteousness until righteousness could be viewed as eternal under the banner of Christ's eternal atonement.

Never did I say that Israel in the OT "trusted" in works under the Law for eternal salvation. They just trusted that in obeying the Law they would be in a place of God's good pleasure until God accepted eternal atonement on their behalf.

To trust in the "sin offering that God allowed to cover sin the OT" was in fact a reliance upon the works of the Law, if by "works" you acknowledge that they include rituals of redemption. Thus, their obedience to the Law was in fact temporary works of righteousness until that righteousness could be designated "works that follow you" after the atonement of Christ.

Rev 14.13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

The Law is righteous! Absolutely!

then I can agree with you! Even we can break our fellowship with the Father by our disobedience. Of course He is forever pleased with us because of Jesus.

We have to "do something" to be saved--receive what God accomplished for us. But exercising faith is not a work of the law. for a sin offering is no work but an atonement for sin. It is different.

I guess it is your phrase "temporary works of righteousness" that raises red flags for me. Because even OT Israel is righteous (those who were saved that is) because of jesus shed blood! that is why it is written that He is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world! All righteousness is based on His death and REsurrection, and then exercising faith in what god declared until Jesus was revealed and ascended.

Gods love for the nation of Israel is not based on their obedience to the law but based on His saying he has an everlasting love for them.

Is. 48:

8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

9 For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.

10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

 

[Ziggy]

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

They kept weighing it down. Adding to it. Making it hard to keep any of it.

It's like.. remember when God got Pharaoh a bit irritated and he went out and told his guys to make the slaves work twice as hard with no straw and still keep the quota?

Exo 5:2 And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.
Exo 5:4 And the king of Egypt said unto them, Wherefore do ye, Moses and Aaron, let the people from their works? get you unto your burdens.

So this is what had become of the Temple in Jerusalem that the High Priests and the Sadducees and Pharisees controlled:
Exo 5:6 And Pharaoh commanded the same day the taskmasters of the people, and their officers, saying,
Exo 5:7 Ye shall no more give the people straw to make brick, as heretofore: let them go and gather straw for themselves.
Exo 5:8 And the tale of the bricks, which they did make heretofore, ye shall lay upon them; ye shall not diminish ought thereof: for they be idle; therefore they cry, saying, Let us go and sacrifice to our God.
Exo 5:9 Let there more work be laid upon the men, that they may labour therein; and let them not regard vain words.

So much so that they even accused the one who created a resting day of breaking the very law he himself created.

They should of been out there giving rest to the people by feeding them, healing them, comforting them.. that's what the law told them to do. But they just wanted more bricks and less straw.

Jesus said.. Repent.. Return to me.. come back.. here I am..

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

The law was intended to lead one to God. Man made it so burdensome many abandoned it.
They kept the works and the rituals and the traditions of men. But they walked all over the meaning and the spirit in which the law was intended.
Because they was deaf and blind and lame themselves.. how could they help anyone else?

Jesus came to heal, forgive and set us free from under the oppression that the law had become.
More bricks, Less straw.. do it or die.

That's how I hear it..
Hugs

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Law is righteous! Absolutely!

then I can agree with you! Even we can break our fellowship with the Father by our disobedience. Of course He is forever pleased with us because of Jesus.

We have to "do something" to be saved--receive what God accomplished for us. But exercising faith is not a work of the law. for a sin offering is no work but an atonement for sin. It is different.

I guess it is your phrase "temporary works of righteousness" that raises red flags for me. Because even OT Israel is righteous (those who were saved that is) because of jesus shed blood! that is why it is written that He is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world! All righteousness is based on His death and REsurrection, and then exercising faith in what god declared until Jesus was revealed and ascended.

Gods love for the nation of Israel is not based on their obedience to the law but based on His saying he has an everlasting love for them.

Is. 48:

8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

9 For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.

10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

Yea, I thought you were thrown off by own personal terminology. That does invite questions, and I don't blame you. But I think, based on what you've said, we're really not disagreeing on anything.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I'm trying to say that the word "righteousness" applied, in the Bible, to imperfect, OT saints. How can they be both imperfect and "righteous?"

“I'm trying to say that the word "righteousness" applied, in the Bible, to imperfect, OT saints. How can they be both imperfect and "righteous?"”


This is the crux of the Bible. How can those of the Great Hall of Faith, Hebrews 11, be our models of Faith? Is it a different Faith, or a completely different Faith? Would it make sense that God would offer, to us all, models of Faith, but then convince us that we should not obtain a Faith such as their own? How can Abraham be the Father of Faith, if it is not a Faith that we are to have and hold?


Being viewed as perfect, or sinless, and actually being perfect, or sinless . . . are two different things.

· First, the Bible is clear that men and women of the OT did, in fact, possess the Holy Spirit. I have tons of verses to show this if need be.

· Second, a person cannot possess the Holy Spirit unless the Curse of Adam and Eve has been lifted, or Spiritually Circumcised by the Holy Hands of Christ.

· So what, then, is lacking from their One, True Faith that we are all to possess? The men and women of the Old Testament did not have the full debt of their sins paid for, which is why they all had to wait for the Redemptive work of Christ on the Cross.

Romans 3:25-26 NLT – “For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.”


We actually see some of these men and women go through this experience, per Scripture below:

· Matthew 27:51-53 NLT - 51 “At that moment the curtain in the sanctuary of the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, rocks split apart, 52 and tombs opened. The bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead. 53 They left the cemetery after Jesus' resurrection, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people.”

Once Christ had been raised from the dead, their faith was made whole and complete. But for what? The simple debt was paid. So, these “Godly” men and men had already been purified by Christ, meaning that the Curse had been lifted; they had the gift of the Holy Spirit to lead and guide them, but they waited for the opportunity to believe in Christ . . . the awaited Messiah.


This is why Abraham looked forward to Christ.

· John 8:56 NLT - 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad."

Was Abraham perfect? Yes, for he is the Father of Spiritual Circumcision. A person is Pure if the Sinful, Corrupt Nature of the Devil is removed from a person’s Heart.

· Romans 4:11 NLT – “Circumcision was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous--even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are counted as righteous because of their faith.”

The above passage points us to the absolute center of the entire Bible. Circumcision of the Heart is at the very Core, or Heart, of understeanding God’s Holy Word. It isn’t easy . . . as even now I see adjustments in what I have believed. So, Circumcision of the Heart is the Holy Work of Christ . . . for this is what was taking place in the OT to the few Godly men and women, but this gift is to begin rampant delivery amongst regular people after the Resurrection of Christ.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

The kind of "righteousness" that has come to exist since Christ came is a different kind of "righteousness," because it now contains the element of eternal life.

I think I understand what you are graciously showing me. However, are you sure that it is a different Faith, or perhaps we are just made whole and complete in and through the Hands of Christ?

· Colossians 2:10-11, 13, 15 NLT - 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. ... 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. ... 15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross.


And this is what we see regarding the tombs being opened. For the dead came to life and walked throughout the city after Christ’s Resurrection. Their Faith wasn’t different, but it was made whole and complete. For us, to those who believe (as of today) Christ has already risen, thus we receive payment for our sins, the Sinful Nature is cut away and we receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit. What is different from today and yesterday, is that none of us have to wait for the Redemptive Work of Christ. It is the same faith. Again . . .

· Romans 3:24-26 NLT – “Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.”


Righteousness – “1 John 03:10 "Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God." Therefore, whoever is of God is Righteous. Righteous people obey God. - Is equated to Blamelessness Prov 11:05,6.


We see that Abraham practiced Righteousness, for he received an edict from God that he would be blameless. Below, God was asking Abraham to be Faithful and Blameless, but instead, God issued the Laws of the Spirit of Life to Abraham. This means that he would live the remainder of his life under the Controlling Way of the Spirit, thus he WOULD be Faithful and Blameless through the Eternal Covenant of Spiritual Circumcision. (Pardon me for being repetitive.)

· Genesis 17:1-2 NLT – “When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am El-Shaddai--'God Almighty.' Serve me faithfully and live a blameless life. 2 I will make a covenant with you, by which I will guarantee to give you countless descendants."

· Romans 4:11 NLT – “Circumcision was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous--even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are counted as righteous because of their faith.”


Consider these passages as an amazing explanation of full Faith:

· Romans 8:2 KJV – “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”

· 2 Peter 1:4 KJV – “Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”

These two passages above explain perfectly what happened to Abraham, as well as everyone mentioned in Hebrews 11, the Great Hall of Faith. Same Faith . . . same Righteousness.


I am asserting that this moment in Abraham’s life could have been the exact moment that had been lifted of the Sinful Nature (but this event could have taken place earlier in his life, perhaps even in Chapter 15 . . . or even as a young boy). But I would assert that when God told Abraham to serve Faithfully and Blamelessly, this could not have been done unless the blinding Curse of Adam and Eve had been lifted from his Stony Heart. And when this Evil Nature has been removed, the Laws of the Spirit of Life have been issued and a person has then been Enabled to Obey.


No one can be considered Righteous if they still possess the Curse that Adam and Eve had essentially given to us all. Righteousness seems to depend upon whether or not that Curse has been lifted. The Gift of the Holy Spirit does not seem to make us Righteous, but that Spirit is a Leader in the life of a Believe, so as to lead in the Ways of Righteousness. So, being lifted of the Curse is the Cleansing we need, and the Spirit is the One who Leads and Guides in the Ways of Righteousness.

 

[Randy Kluth]

“I'm trying to say that the word "righteousness" applied, in the Bible, to imperfect, OT saints. How can they be both imperfect and "righteous?"”

Why don't we reverse the question: How can the OT saints *not* be both imperfect and righteous?

This is the crux of the Bible. How can those of the Great Hall of Faith, Hebrews 11, be our models of Faith? Is it a different Faith, or a completely different Faith? Would it make sense that God would offer, to us all, models of Faith, but then convince us that we should not obtain a Faith such as their own? How can Abraham be the Father of Faith, if it is not a Faith that we are to have and hold?

Being viewed as perfect, or sinless, and actually being perfect, or sinless . . . are two different things.

This gets tricky, and is the problem. When I view the OT saints as flawed, I see them as imperfect. When I look at Christians today, I see them as imperfect. As 1 John reads, (paraphrased): "if you say you have not sinned, you make God a liar."

So you're talking about God seeing us through the eyes of His perfect Son Jesus. This is called "Identification." We are identified as part of his Body because we've been accepted on his behalf. It certainly doesn't mean we actually are perfect presently!

· First, the Bible is clear that men and women of the OT did, in fact, possess the Holy Spirit. I have tons of verses to show this if need be.

· Second, a person cannot possess the Holy Spirit unless the Curse of Adam and Eve has been lifted, or Spiritually Circumcised by the Holy Hands of Christ.

· So what, then, is lacking from their One, True Faith that we are all to possess? The men and women of the Old Testament did not have the full debt of their sins paid for, which is why they all had to wait for the Redemptive work of Christ on the Cross.

The language I use is as follows. OT saints possessed the Holy Spirit as a temporary gift until Christ made it an eternal gift. Salvation in the OT was temporal, whereas salvation in the NT is eternal. Faith could not achieve salvation in the OT, but had to await the NT work of Christ to achieve eternal status.

Romans 3:25-26 NLT – “For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.”

We actually see some of these men and women go through this experience, per Scripture below:

· Matthew 27:51-53 NLT - 51 “At that moment the curtain in the sanctuary of the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, rocks split apart, 52 and tombs opened. The bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead. 53 They left the cemetery after Jesus' resurrection, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people.”

Once Christ had been raised from the dead, their faith was made whole and complete. But for what? The simple debt was paid. So, these “Godly” men and men had already been purified by Christ, meaning that the Curse had been lifted; they had the gift of the Holy Spirit to lead and guide them, but they waited for the opportunity to believe in Christ . . . the awaited Messiah.

This is why Abraham looked forward to Christ.

· John 8:56 NLT - 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad."

Was Abraham perfect? Yes, for he is the Father of Spiritual Circumcision. A person is Pure if the Sinful, Corrupt Nature of the Devil is removed from a person’s Heart.

No, Abraham was hardly perfect! The sinful, corrupt nature of man was in Abraham. As all saints learn, the sin nature must be put under our feet. We live with it, but we regularly overcome it.

· Romans 4:11 NLT – “Circumcision was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous--even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are counted as righteous because of their faith.”

The above passage points us to the absolute center of the entire Bible. Circumcision of the Heart is at the very Core, or Heart, of understanding God’s Holy Word. It isn’t easy . . . as even now I see adjustments in what I have believed. So, Circumcision of the Heart is the Holy Work of Christ . . . for this is what was taking place in the OT to the few Godly men and women, but this gift is to begin rampant delivery amongst regular people after the Resurrection of Christ.

You are talking about the need all saints have to put off their sin nature and to put on, in its place, a godly nature inspired from heaven. In the OT it was called "righteousness," though people remained imperfect. In the NT it is called "eternal righteousness," or "salvation."

 

[Randy Kluth]

I think I understand what you are graciously showing me. However, are you sure that it is a different Faith, or perhaps we are just made whole and complete in and through the Hands of Christ?

Perhaps this is where the confusion lies between us? I'm not talking about a *different faith.* Certainly the understanding of faith is different from OT to NT. In the OT faith was directed towards a temporary means of atonement, such as in God's word, animal sacrifices, etc. However, it was a real faith in God, who by His word would ultimately provide an *eternal atonement.*

In the NT, we know all this, and our faith is now directed only in the eternal form of our atonement, the cross. Saying this is a different "faith" would not be accurate, in describing my own position. Saying it involves a different understanding, to some degree I could agree with that. It involves a lesser knowledge and a fuller knowledge, but in both cases, we know the same God and the same word. The understanding changes, as the events unfold in which Christ eternally atoned for our sins.

· Colossians 2:10-11, 13, 15 NLT - 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. ... 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. ... 15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross.

And this is what we see regarding the tombs being opened. For the dead came to life and walked throughout the city after Christ’s Resurrection. Their Faith wasn’t different, but it was made whole and complete. For us, to those who believe (as of today) Christ has already risen, thus we receive payment for our sins, the Sinful Nature is cut away and we receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit. What is different from today and yesterday, is that none of us have to wait for the Redemptive Work of Christ. It is the same faith. Again . . .

· Romans 3:24-26 NLT – “Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.”


Righteousness – “1 John 03:10 "Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God." Therefore, whoever is of God is Righteous. Righteous people obey God. - Is equated to Blamelessness Prov 11:05,6.


We see that Abraham practiced Righteousness, for he received an edict from God that he would be blameless. Below, God was asking Abraham to be Faithful and Blameless, but instead, God issued the Laws of the Spirit of Life to Abraham. This means that he would live the remainder of his life under the Controlling Way of the Spirit, thus he WOULD be Faithful and Blameless through the Eternal Covenant of Spiritual Circumcision. (Pardon me for being repetitive.)

· Genesis 17:1-2 NLT – “When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am El-Shaddai--'God Almighty.' Serve me faithfully and live a blameless life. 2 I will make a covenant with you, by which I will guarantee to give you countless descendants."

· Romans 4:11 NLT – “Circumcision was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous--even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are counted as righteous because of their faith.”


Consider these passages as an amazing explanation of full Faith:

· Romans 8:2 KJV – “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”

· 2 Peter 1:4 KJV – “Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”

These two passages above explain perfectly what happened to Abraham, as well as everyone mentioned in Hebrews 11, the Great Hall of Faith. Same Faith . . . same Righteousness.


I am asserting that this moment in Abraham’s life could have been the exact moment that had been lifted of the Sinful Nature (but this event could have taken place earlier in his life, perhaps even in Chapter 15 . . . or even as a young boy). But I would assert that when God told Abraham to serve Faithfully and Blamelessly, this could not have been done unless the blinding Curse of Adam and Eve had been lifted from his Stony Heart. And when this Evil Nature has been removed, the Laws of the Spirit of Life have been issued and a person has then been Enabled to Obey.


No one can be considered Righteous if they still possess the Curse that Adam and Eve had essentially given to us all. Righteousness seems to depend upon whether or not that Curse has been lifted. The Gift of the Holy Spirit does not seem to make us Righteous, but that Spirit is a Leader in the life of a Believe, so as to lead in the Ways of Righteousness. So, being lifted of the Curse is the Cleansing we need, and the Spirit is the One who Leads and Guides in the Ways of Righteousness.

I answered some of this in my previous post to you. I use my own terminology, which throws some people off--I don't blame them. I describe OT salvation as a "temporary salvation," as in a one-time act of forgiveness or a one time deliverance from an enemy. I describe the NT salvation as an "eternal salvation," because Christ had already provided eternal atonement for our sins.

It isn't as though OT saints were not "saved" in the sense they had no path to heaven at that time. Having faith, they were certainly already on that path to eternal life. It's just that they couldn't official receive notice that they had it until after the cross. The legal work had to be done before their salvation was certified as good.

How then would OT saints know they were actually "saints" if they had only temporary forms of forgiveness, and not yet eternal salvation? It is, as you indicated, that they lived as saints, in a sense "circumcising" their flesh by following God's word.

They chose to live regular lives of righteousness and trusted in God's grace to forgive them. Like the NT saints they believed in God's atoning character, and believed that He would ultimately cover all their sins.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

The language I use is as follows. OT saints possessed the Holy Spirit as a temporary gift until Christ made it an eternal gift.

You just taught me something . . . how could anyone possess the Holy Spirit while in the Pit as they wait for Christ?

Now we're talking! Thank you! This is a big deal for me. Unbelievable. Did I say thank you, yet?

 

[farouk]

You just taught me something . . . how could anyone possess the Holy Spirit while in the Pit as they wait for Christ?

Now we're talking! Thank you! This is a big deal for me. Unbelievable. Did I say thank you, yet?

@2nd Timothy Group Good to remember the significance of Pentecost also as regards the coming of the Holy Spirit to indwell.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Perhaps this is where the confusion lies between us? I'm not talking about a *different faith.* Certainly the understanding of faith is different from OT to NT. In the OT faith was directed towards a temporary means of atonement, such as in God's word, animal sacrifices, etc. However, it was a real faith in God, who by His word would ultimately provide an *eternal atonement.*

In the NT, we know all this, and our faith is now directed only in the eternal form of our atonement, the cross. Saying this is a different "faith" would not be accurate, in describing my own position. Saying it involves a different understanding, to some degree I could agree with that. It involves a lesser knowledge and a fuller knowledge, but in both cases, we know the same God and the same word. The understanding changes, as the events unfold in which Christ eternally atoned for our sins.



I answered some of this in my previous post to you. I use my own terminology, which throws some people off--I don't blame them. I describe OT salvation as a "temporary salvation," as in a one-time act of forgiveness or a one time deliverance from an enemy. I describe the NT salvation as an "eternal salvation," because Christ had already provided eternal atonement for our sins.

It isn't as though OT saints were not "saved" in the sense they had no path to heaven at that time. Having faith, they were certainly already on that path to eternal life. It's just that they couldn't official receive notice that they had it until after the cross. The legal work had to be done before their salvation was certified as good.

How then would OT saints know they were actually "saints" if they had only temporary forms of forgiveness, and not yet eternal salvation? It is, as you indicated, that they lived as saints, in a sense "circumcising" their flesh by following God's word.

They chose to live regular lives of righteousness and trusted in God's grace to forgive them. Like the NT saints they believed in God's atoning character, and believed that He would ultimately cover all their sins.

I think that we would have some amazing conversations over the phone. I'm desperate to know the absolute Truth, so when someone gets me closer in that direction . . . I am so thankful!

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

@2nd Timothy Group Good to remember the significance of Pentecost also as regards the coming of the Holy Spirit to indwell.

For shore!

 

[Randy Kluth]

I think that we would have some amazing conversations over the phone. I'm desperate to know the absolute Truth, so when someone gets me closer in that direction . . . I am so thankful!

I'm so happy you're thankful. I wish we all could be thankful for one another. But I never let myself get too happy, because I know around the corner I'm going to have to be corrected...again...and again.... We're all trying to get closer to the truth, and therefore, closer to Him.

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