Never implied that.Axehead said:
We bear good fruit because we have become a good tree.
The fruit doesn't make the tree. That is like saying I am human because I have a finger.
The Queen Of Heaven Is A Devil!
- Thread starter emekrus
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
We bear good fruit because we have become a good tree.
The fruit doesn't make the tree. That is like saying I am human because I have a finger.
Pom, it's about Jesus Christ not you. You haven't become a good tree you are a branch in the tree. Nothing good about you. The tree gives you life and the life of Christ in you bears fruit. But, you have to bring your will into harmony with the Lord's will. You must decrease so that He can increase.pom2014 said:
John 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
You are a finger and not the Body. We can only become members of the Body, not the Head and not the whole Body.
Pom, do you agree with this verse, below?
Acts 17:28a
For in him we live, and move, and have our being;
Yeah don't give up your salvation by taking the mark of the beast, otherwise you can forget about your spot in Gods kingdom. As far as I can see, this is the only time where the term 'once saved always saved' no longer applies. For those who believe that you will still inherit the kingdom of God if you take the mark, then when the time comes, go right ahead and take the mark and find out for yourself. As for me, I don't believe in taking unnecessary risks, especially when it comes to the future of my soul.Axehead said:
Rom 11:18 NIV do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Losing our salvation is really an incorrect idea. We can't lose our citizenship either, but we can forfeit or salvation and our citizenship. OSAS demands use to be blinded to the Christian who later forsakes the faith by claiming that they were never saved in the first place. It is a denial of reality and there is nothing in scripture to back it up.
The elect cannot forfeit their salvation. How can we when God refuses to let us go. Rom 8:33-39 ESV.aspen said:
Those fellows who wrote the NT disagree:ATP said:
JN 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 [SIZE=14pt]He cuts off every branch in me[/SIZE] that bears no fruit,
5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 [SIZE=16pt]IF[/SIZE] ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME, HE IS LIKE A BRANCH THAT IS THROWN AWAY AND WITHERS; SUCH BRANCHES ARE PICKED UP, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED.
RO 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER.
22 CONSIDER THEREFORE THE KINDNESS AND STERNNESS OF GOD: STERNNESS TO THOSE WHO FELL, BUT KINDNESS TO YOU, [SIZE=18pt]PROVIDED [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]THAT YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.[/SIZE]
1CO 9:27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave [SIZE=14pt]so that[/SIZE] after I have preached to others, [SIZE=14pt]I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.[/SIZE]
1CO 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm[SIZE=16pt], be[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]careful that you don't fall[/SIZE]!
COL 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now HE HAS RECONCILED YOU BY CHRIST'S PHYSICAL BODY THROUGH DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY IN HIS SIGHT, WITHOUT BLEMISH AND FREE FROM ACCUSATION-- 23[SIZE=18pt] IF[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH[/SIZE], established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.
HEB 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST [SIZE=18pt]IF[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt].[/SIZE]
HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6[SIZE=18pt] IF[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]THEY FALL AWAY[/SIZE], to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
PHP 3:7 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
2PE 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and [SIZE=14pt]election [/SIZE]sure. For [SIZE=16pt]IF[/SIZE] YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,
2PE 2: 20 [SIZE=16pt]IF[/SIZE] THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD BY KNOWING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST [SIZE=16pt]AND [/SIZE]ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED IN IT AND OVERCOME, THEY ARE WORSE OFF AT THE END THAN THEY WERE AT THE BEGINNING. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
EZE 18:24 [SIZE=16pt]"But if[/SIZE] a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”
pom2014 said:
If that is how He is to you, than Im sorry for you, for you are missing out on the best things in Christ.Do you ever read of the disciples acting as if He was King,no He was their friend.
No wonder christianity is a failing religion.
In all His love
This is used as an allegory, nothing more.JimParker said:
Rom 11 is about nonbelieving Jews in Israel Jim. They were cut off because of unbelief, they were not born again.JimParker said:
Rom 11:18-20 NIV do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.
Paul is referring to being a castaway by men, not God. Notice it says, "after I have preached to others"..JimParker said:
This has nothing to do with salvation, it has to do with temptation. Also read 1 Cor 10:13 NIV.JimParker said:
This passage is about losing blessings in Christ, not salvation. Without blemish and accusation precedes verse 23. Being accused is not about losing salvation. The devil accuses us every day, but who can bring a charge against God's elect? Rom 8:33 ESV. Also, if you notice here it says we have already been reconciled through the blood of Christ shed on the cross. His blood is permanent Jim...JimParker said:
Col 1:20-22 NIV and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. 21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
This is a warning against unbelief and is referring to nonbelieving Jews who have heard the truth of the Gospel, but are having a hard time accepting God's salvation. Notice the words in bold here...JimParker said:
Heb 2:1-3 ESV Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. 2For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, 3how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard,
Heb 3:16 ESV For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses?
Heb 4:1-3 ESV Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. 2For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. 3For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.
When we finally do believe as Heb 4:3 ESV says, we enter God's rest and His wrath is no longer on us. We are sealed and marked by the promised Holy Spirit...........
Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
And this is also about nonbelieving Jews.JimParker said:
Notice Heb 6:7-8 NIV where it mentions the crop, farmer, thorns and thistles.
This all goes back to unbelief in the Jews..
Branch / Crop / Farmer / Root / Seed / Soil / Thorns and Thistles / Unbelief / Vine
Why did they fall away? Because they had no root of salvation.......
Matt 13:21 NIV But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.
These passages are about sanctification. Notice Phil 3:14 NIV when it mentions winning the prize. This prize is referring to the five crowns in heaven...JimParker said:
Matt 5:12 NIV Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Matt 6:20 NIV But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.
1 Cor 9:24-27 NIV Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
2 John 1:8-11 NIV Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.
1 - CROWN 1 - CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS— LOVED THE LORD'S APPEARING - 2 Tim 4:8
2 - CROWN 2 - INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN— DISCIPLINED BODIES / SELF-CONTROL - 1 Cor 9:25-27
3 - CROWN 3 - CROWN OF LIFE— ENDURED PATIENTLY THRU TRIALS - James 1:12, Rev 2:10
4 - CROWN 4 - CROWN OF GLORY— GODLY LEADERS WHO WERE EXAMPLES TO FLOCK - 1 Pet 5:2-4
5 - CROWN 5 - CROWN OF REJOICING— SOUL WINNERS CROWN - 1 Thess 2:19, Dan 12:3
This passage is about losing blessings in Christ, not salvation. Notice the word "promises" in 2 Peter 1:4 NIV. Now notice the word "promise" in the following...Acts 2:38-39 NIV, Gal 3:22 NIV, Gal 3:29 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Phil 1:6 NIV, Heb 4:1 ESV, 2 Peter 2:4-10 NIV, 1 John 2:24-25 NIV, Jude 1:24 NIV. Also notice in 2 Peter 1:11 NIV it does not say we will NOT be welcome into the eternal kingdom, rather it says if we do these things we will receive a rich welcome. It's only being applied to HOW we will be greeted, not IF we will be greeted.JimParker said:
This passage is specifically about apostates who knew God but did not accept Him as Savior, similar to Rom 1:18-32 NIV.JimParker said:
This has nothing to do with salvation. It has to do with the penalty of sin because sin is death.JimParker said:
James 1:13-15 NIV When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Perfect example of why scripture wars never convince anyone. Fundamentalists simply demand scripture so they can reinterpret it and then dismiss it. Mormons have their own spin on scripture, as well - all it does is just reinforce misconceptions in their own minds. And, ATP, if you think it is harsh and over the top to compare your misconceptions to Mormon misconceptions, but your Calvinism is only a couple hundred years older.
I suggest a remedial reading course.ATP said:
None of your responses suggested that you grasped the meaning of the scriptures.
If I'm wrong then God would be contradictory. Rom 8:35, 38, 39 says neither..JimParker said:
trouble
hardship
persecution
famine
nakedness
danger or sword
death nor life
nor angels
nor rulers
nor things present nor things to come
nor powers
nor height nor depth
nor anything else in all creation
will be able to separate the elect from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
OK. I'll address your responses. I didn't want to because of your misuse of the English language. But here goes:ATP said:
(1) R. John 15 passage <<This is used as an allegory, nothing more.>>
No. It's a metaphor; a simile without the words "like" or "as." (You can look up both allegory and metaphor on line so as to be able to properly use the words in the future..)
The passage has a specific meaning.
The vine represents Jesus. (I am the vine.)
The keeper of the vineyard represents God the father.
The branches represent Jesus' disciples (us).
Fruit represents the works of the Spirit.
The fire represents hell.
The Father cuts off from the vine (Jesus) every branch (disciple) who does not produce fruit. (Works of the Spirit.)
Those branches (disciples) who do not remain "in Jesus" (joined to Jesus by grace, faith and obedience) are gathered up and thrown into the fire. (hell)
That is the teaching of Jesus for YOU. It is not "nothing more" than some random allegory.
(2) << Rom 11 is about non-believing Jews in Israel Jim. They were cut off because of unbelief, they were not born again. >>
Yes, those who were broken off refers to non-believing Jews. (Another metaphor, by the way)
BUT: The words "Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER. 22 CONSIDER THEREFORE THE KINDNESS AND STERNNESS OF GOD: STERNNESS TO THOSE WHO FELL, BUT KINDNESS TO YOU, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.[SIZE=14pt]"[/SIZE] are addressed to believing gentiles, i.e.: Christians like you and I.
And that's as far as I will go with your post. If that is not enough to get you thinking then I can only assume you don't want to.
Rather then taking a snippet out of context from the middle of a passage, I'll go to the conclusion of what Paul was saying:ATP said:
Rom 8:38-39 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Nothing can separate us from God's love. God's love is demonstrated by Rom 5:10 "For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." God loves all His creation, including those who choose to be His enemies.
Nothing that anyone can do can separate us from that love. Even if we turn our back on God and end up in hell, His love for us will not lessen one iota.
Incorrect. These passages are not speaking about all of creation. It is speaking specifically about the elect in Rom 8:33 ESV. The love spoken here is the love that was shed on the cross. Jesus died on the cross out of love Jim.JimParker said:
Yes it is speaking of the "elect".ATP said:
And nothing can separate anyone, elect or not, from the Love of God.
Correct, so do you see how this is referring to the blood of Christ shed on the cross? Do you believe Jesus died on the cross out of love?JimParker said:
Similar threads
